CREATING AN ABORIGINAL CATHOLICISM?

Hi Odile..can you explain to me what an OM and EM are...I don't think we use those words in the Canadian Church...I understand one stands for Ordinary Mass and one for Extraordinary Mass...what is the difference...I think you were reflecting on Jubilee's perception about the Catholic Charismatic Movement which I never understood to be a mass just prayer meetings where the Holy Spirit shares intimately with those involved...can you get me up to speed on this one...thanks Odile53 and Jubilee...

I find it a shame that people feel "choked" because the Catholic Church is becoming more conservative. What is the problem here? Some of us just refuse to put up with the happy-clappiness of the charismatic junk that we see in so many churches. Ban me from this site if you will, but my opinion will be heard, and my opinion is that a more conservative Catholicism will be good for everyone.

Hello Jubilee...I wanted to answer your question..but as I was catching up with Bren19 and Odile53 I realized that there is a lot of stuff there that would address why I am saying what I am saying because Bren, I think is asking the same question that you are...why don't you take a look at those response and then get back to me on the overall context of what I am saying...I think you wil find insight as to why I am also very concerned about the trend towards conservativism in the church...cause there is a difference I am orthodox (based my thinking, involvement, etc.) on the orthodox teachings of the church albeit I interprete them in a progressive or liberal manner, whereas others interpret orthodoxy in a more conservative, (focused) way that works for them and their community...conservative is good, but it is not the "end or all" of the Catholic faith..I am about finding some breathing room to be truly authentic Aboriginal within the Catholic context..cause I must also honour my Creator in the work of his (or her) spirit amongst my people prior to the arrival fo the Catholic church on our shores....I look forward to your thoughts and engagement...welcome Jubilee...

Response Part 1

Hi Odile, I had to cut and paste your two postings as you have so much to say and I wanted to treat all of your points with the respect that they deserve..and I am sure that I might have missed some points as you have much to say! I hope that I have shared my thoughts with you in a coherent way…you have this beautiful gift of saying so much (at so many levels) with such few words…and fortunately or not so fortunate for me..I have an abilty to perceive, feel and get overwhelmed with the levels of truth that are spoken in a few words…..so let’s dance….
First of all, I stand corrected on Tekakwitha..I really thought she was Algonquin too…in fact Benedict called her an Algonquin when he visited America…so maybe that is where I got it…who knows..and she is still very cool for our people.
I definitely agree that the general nature of our people is spiritually grounded. I have met one or two aboriginal atheists who were aboriginal but I think they were more angry at God than any real theological or philosophical reflection on the existence of God…it was a “how can God do this…kind of thing…and to a great degree my heart goes out to them. A key point though is yes, we agree, aboriginal people have always been a spiritual people…we have been free from western philosophical development that divides the world and have been blessed with a holistic outlook.
In my talking about the need for “bridging theology” to allow Aboriginal Catholics to engage in a process of reconciling our traditional beliefs with the teachings of the Catholic Church I am in full agreement that as Catholics we cannot build a unity from a “disunity platform”.
I googled up “Archbishop Chaput” to get a sense of his background…I am elated that he is a Native American – the first to be installed as an Archbishop – and that he is the second of two bishops that are of Native American ancestry…do you –by any chance – know who the other Native bishop is or was? That is indeed encouraging… your grandma must of known mine with a wicked sense of humor like that…I will definitely write to this Archbishop and see how he sees things for Native American and Aboriginal Canadian Catholics….maybe I might have a teacher out of this…thank you Odile for this lead…
Neo-traditionalism is an interesting word…I will study that word in terms of the concept it implies..a kind of reconstructed traditionalism that probably never existed prior to Vatican II…even our brothers and sisters in the Lefevre movement (who rejected Vatican II) indicate that it is not about going back to the old church as there were as much problems in 1948 as there are now…it is about the positioning of the church after an unbalanced progressive and conservative agenda in terms of the voices at the council (or something like that).
In terms of the traditionalism I agree with you..who among us can deny the importance of pre Vatican II devotions, the old mass formats and their metaphysical statements are not valid when they have such an indepth impact on Catholics. The church, under JPII and Benedict, have soften the harshness of the 60’s for the conservative and traditionalist people to allow for them a place in the church..I am asking the same thing for our people nothing more, nothing less.
I don’t think we should do anything to discourage the neo-traditionalist other than to love and live as Jesus (the Nazarene) would of …and I only hope they return that love to me and support me in my journey towards an Aboriginal Catholicism.

Response Part 2

Many of these Catholics weren’t around in the perceived “good old days”; I remember the pre-Vatican church and I remember its many effects on us (effects that continue to burden us today…like false “humbleness” an incredible sense of guilt for all kinds of sins imaginable…self-esteem issues all based on pre-vatican II Catholicism…. I also remember exactly the first time I (we as in parish) were/ was allowed to stand up and receive the body of Christ in my hand!..that was a day marked with great meaning in my memory some 40 years after the fact. It was a great day…many new Catholics don’t understand the “fresh air” that Vatican II allowed us to have….albeit there were craziness and abuse…but that comes with any exploration of a new found freedom. Thank God for JP II who tried to balance and clarify and make meaning of Vatican II within the 2000 year context of its history and development. And bless our current pope by the way who continues on the road of clarification and balance….
As a Catholic born into the faith, the decision to be Catholic for me was made by an Aboriginal family so I take my faith seriously not only because of its teaching, but because it is also a way of honoring my grandparents (especially grandmother who was the first to convert from medicine traditions to the Church in 1905)…but I also honour my great grandmother who was the last practicing herbal medicine person in our family….she did teach my mother a bit..but that was in the 1940s and my mothers’ mind was elsewhere..however, I get dreams of plants and where they can be found…so our peoples ways live on…
Well said on your point about saints of the past, they lived the same life, same challenge and so forth that we live in our day, time and place…our call to God is not to be necessarily a recognized official saint but a saint indeed in its truest sense…
In terms of “walling” ourselves off culturally from the mainstream Catholic Church..I am not talking about that…I agree with you fully! How can we be truly Catholic, universal and a diversity within a unity if we wall ourselves off as an Indigenous Catholic Church in communion with Rome…when we cut ourselves us from the true Catholicism in community that is only partly defined by the coordinating and teaching role of the Vatican? We can’t. I agree.
The point of Catholicism is to be a universal faith community. However, we are not a universal faith community when we can only express our authentic selves in a very limited way defined by tradition and more specifically the monopolization of Western Europe in the development of what most people see as the Catholic identity…that identity not only does not work for me, it represents a violence and a history of colonialization and theft (i.e. Spain stealing gold from the Aztecs and using that gold to lay the walls of Spanish cathedrals…) and that reflects on me when I see gold-plated chalices at our masses…I much prefer pottery as our chalice and am very much low-Christology and Fransiscan on these things 
I am not about an “Indian Catholic Church” I think that defeats both ideas of a “welcoming and hospitable aboriginal mindset “ and the very meaning of ‘catholicism”. I only say that I would personally prefer a place of retreat – as I love Adoration – where I can be in a relatively quiet place in front of the Blessed Sacrament where Jesus and I relate within an Aboriginal context…this would be the inner “sanctum” for me to re-energize and go out to fully participate in the global church…today for me…that special place – the lack of that special acknowledgement that as an Aboriginal Catholic I deserve a retreat place of my own culture…that is nourishing to my spiritual development and the love for the church in the light of its reenergization from Vatican II…that is why I have these feelings of alienation and isolation (exclusion) from this increasingly conservative Catholic Church..I feel it is becoming more difficult under these forces to be both Catholic and Aboriginal…and I will talk about that and I believe in the nature of Catholics that – at the end of the day –we will all find a solution and agreement that compromises and works for all..
I hope we never marginalize other people, that is so not Catholic nor is it Aboriginal…it would be us becoming the beasts of our oppressors and those who marginalized us….”forgive us our trespasses as we forgive theirs….”
In terms of our Catholic dialogue within the Aboriginal community I am 100% with you. In fact, I am forming a non-profit society that looks at the idea of Aboriginal Catholicism…I.e. the Aboriginal Catholic Theological Society (ACTS) so that we can have that Catholic conversation in our own communities…aboriginal catholics talking to aboriginal catholics kind of thing…how do we define our own catholicsms, how do we remain in communion with the rest of the church..sounds like you would be a great leader in that work….

Response: Part 3

I share with you concern about socio-economic development and the apparent contradiction that our people are taking and justifying by blaming the church and “beating the white man at his own game” and unhealthy attitudes like that ….that certainly is the dialogue and conversation we need to have in our own community and the teachings of the Catholic church definitely must be a part of that conversation as a matter of fact…the church has an effect (in most cases negative) on the thinking of our people so we can’t be in denial about that….I am with you on that internal dialogue we have…we also need to say we’re sorry too for our role in colonialization …tough one eh…to the politically correct in the aboriginal community….I know what your saying…how could I not know?
I don’t see any of what your saying as downing our people..it is an objective analysis that addresses the challenges that we –as a people – face nothing more, nothing less.. I agree with you as I have been involved in the political side of Canadian aboriginal issues for nearly 32 years now..so I know what you are saying and how it relates to the Canadian Aboriginal experience…I am sad that, in many cases, our people are becoming the beasts that we fought against 30 odd years ago….I am proud of the young warriors calling my generation to account…standing up on Wall Street against corporate greed and so forth…
You and I are aboriginal , it is in our heart to challenge our own people and our adopted community in the Catholic community..and I have no problems with that as long as the challenge is done in a respectful and engaging ways…I look at some of the cruelty in some of these Catholic Answer groups…the dogmatists, the legalists and so forth as they debate about their superior understanding of a huge and complex church..they are extremely cruel and judgemental to each other…and that I have NEVER seen in the dialogue of our people…so maybe Catholics have a thing or two to learn from our people…

And finally, megwetch for your following statement ending your second note I think….We need to be very careful about the face we present to the dominant culture. I think that if we adhere to the moral teachings of the Church, make ourselves present at Mass, and more so than just on Sundays, and actively evangelize other Catholics with our traditional world view of reverence for all of creation, we will be a welcome force in the mainstream Catholic Church. That in itself right there is being part of Christ's presence in the world.
I agree….

Well megwetch and know that I am a lot closer to your thinking than you may realize …I look forward to the continued discussion as well as other peoples thoughts on what we are talking about…

In response to your message back to me Bren - Hi Bruce, you statement above is starting to give me more insight into what it is you are looking for within the Catholic church. Please let us know exactly what it is that you feel is "choking" you and making you feel "not welcome" in the Catholic church.

Absolutely…feeling choked
.
Probably a wrong word as it doesn’t describe the feeling of exclusion that is expressed in the “leariness” and/or hesitancy on the part of local parish priests and/or the diocese itself. My experience in the “fear” of the church to engage in exploratory conversation around the need for “bridging” theological frameworks is common in all the dioceses I have approached.

These include the diocesan communities of El Paso, Vancouver, BC and Vancouver Island. The Archdiocese of Vancouver is, of course, a more conservative diocese, but I have also talked about things in the Diocese of El Paso (whom do some very progressive work around refugees from Mexico into the States ) as well as the Diocese of Vancouver Island (whom was founded to minister to the Coast Salish, Kwakuiitl and Nuu-chahl-nuth peoples of Vancouver Island, British Columbia and since Bishop Remi de Roo’s days was known for its progressive nature.

I am finding that the church at these diocesan levels are only comfortable with a “cut and paste” approach. We have priests in aboriginally designed vestments with the Blessed Sacrament being in the shape of a tipi, etc. and we have the same words, concepts and ideas in the same format as our Mass.

I am not saying that we need to change the liturgy. The liturgy is the Church’s global prayer and as a unified and “catholic” community in solidarity we need to say those prayers (the intention of the church, the themes as chosen over the three year cycle, teaching points, spiritual growth opportunities and the Eucharist) is not being challenged by me as being non-cultural. The liturgy is the liturgy and it must form the spinal cord of any approach to Aboriginal Catholicism in my take.

However, we do not have to restrict ourselves to the traditional post Vatican II mass – we must have the freedom to find expression in how we listen to the teachings of the church, how we develop it, how we celebrate it.

Some basic ideas that I envision include;
• The Celtic style mass where people sit in a circle around the altar, as part of our readings, people in the circle read the scripture, we then take a stone, rock or some other symbol of our lives, prayers, being and place it on the alter at the center of our circle as “the people’s prayer” or the “prayer intentions”, we then share in a meal. Table theology that puts the Eucharist at the center of our Catholic faith is also common on the ceremonialism aspects of most indigenous communities.
• I am suggesting liturgical dancing if the group wishes during the celebrating an alternative aboriginal mass .
• In terms of learning from the churches teachings (reading and gospel) we can approach that in amoreconsistent way with respect to aboriginal peoples i.e. a combination of elders speaking, any native person who is felt led to speak and then a summary from the local priest.

As you can see Brenda, I don’t think that I am being outrageous, I am just saying that “inculturation theology” and post-vatican II commitment to inculturation was the “fresh air” that I needed and that |I believe our people need to not only remain true and authentic aboriginal Catholics, it is the core purpose of our Catholicism…to honour God for giving us the gift of our spirituality, to honour the “North American Testament” (the workings of the Spirit prior to the arrival fo the official church) and so forth…it is a much more holistic and involved process than the current Mass allows for aboriginal peoples.

Finally, as I need to cut this short and give you a sense of my feeling choked (as in a lack of spiritual nourishment) we need a bridging theology that allows us a framework to reconcile what we are as Aboriginal people and what our community committed to us through baptism and confirmation when our people adopted Catholicsm as part of our reality…

The church seems to resist what I am saying…and part of my exploration in this group is to get a look at things from the lens of other Catholics.
So, that is a start Bren, I hope that helps and I look forward to your continued thoughts…

Sorry for the long previous post--I have to get ready to go to Mass now. Suggest all do the same!

I can understand feeling uncomfortable as a minority person in a predominantly Caucasian worship setting, especially if you happen to be the lone minority person there. I can't speak for Trickster, obviously, but I have been in that situation a few times, particularly when moving to a new parish. I've never felt that that was a characteristic of the fact that the liturgy happens to be eurocentric, at least in origin. I've always thought that that was because of either bigoted, or just plain curious, caucasian parishioners, who probably would not be rude enough to stare at a black person who came to Mass, but lose their "custody of the eyes" when a native American walks into Mass (and sadly, this happened more at the EF Mass than elsewhere, which, when you think of it, would be precisely where you would expect that people would be practicing "custody of the eyes" a little better than the run of the mill Joe Catholic at weekly OF Mass!) It is difficult to explain if you haven't had this experience yourself. However, I think the fact that these events occurred at an EF Mass was purely coincidental. Those of us who look very native tend to be somewhat conspicuous, as there aren't a lot of us around in non-reservation areas. We're bound to stimulate some curiosity, especially if we are dressed in something vaguely Southwest-looking.

However, I've always felt that I have every right, and every duty, to be right there at Mass, regardless of the attitudes of some people. See, God made me a red woman. If He wanted to make me a white woman, He would have done so in the first place!

I don't think you can remake the Catholic Church, after all, it is the Catholic Church. However, I am very much looking forward to the enshrinement of Blessed Kateri's statue in our parish church later this year.

Vis a vis the Ordinary Form Mass, and I will remind everyone here that it is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass every bit as much as the Extraordinary Form is, and charity (as well as reverence) dictates that we all refrain from making derogatory remarks about either form. I have never seen anything that I would call "happy clappy junk" in at least weekly Mass attendance in the last fifty or so years that I've been attending Mass. No clown Masses, no kum-ba-yah, guitar music is limited to actual liturgical music approved by the USCCB hymnals, etc., etc. The way "clown Masses" get cited, I sometimes wonder just where people are going to church, since I've never seen any! Just the offering of Jesus Christ in His body, blood, soul, and divinity, for the expiation of our sins, the sharing of the Holy Eucharist for our precious union with God to the life and health of our souls and minds, the same as it is at every Mass around the world, for the past two thousand years.

I have no real preference for either form, and regularly attend both. And quite frankly, I love weekday Mass, precisely because there is no music to distract me from what is going on in the sanctuary, and I personally enjoy the reverence of quiet.

Hi Jubilee, why do you think you would be banned from the site...this is an inclusive place and all are welcome. I especially welcome those with a differing opinion than mine because it offers me the chance to think about issues from a different angle. It is about 4 am in the morning and I couldn't sleep so I don't need to say that my mind is not at its best right now...so I will get some more rest, wake up and get back to you when I am more alert No, please feel free to express yourself and if you have conservative views...all the better, that is the dialogue that I always welcom.e...ok jubilee look forward to our conversation....

I find it a shame that people feel "choked" because the Catholic Church is becoming more conservative. What is the problem here? Some of us just refuse to put up with the happy-clappiness of the charismatic junk that we see in so many churches. Ban me from this site if you will, but my opinion will be heard, and my opinion is that a more conservative Catholicism will be good for everyone.