Protestant who want answers

Thanks for the kind words jatayloRN and jojo96. Interestingly enough it was my
discomfort with Mary (due to an attack I wasn't ready for) that caused me to look deeply into the question of Mary's place in the Christian life.

Though it began on the defensive - the insights kept coming - and over time I realized that Mary's place in Salvation history was God's doing, not hers.

And what God had done - is better to be accepted and rejoiced in than intellectually
scrutinized with as much skepticism one could muster.

There is a level of intimacy in God's love for us that makes us uncomfortable sometimes. But it is WONDERFUL when we finally accept it.

The intimacy of mother and child, husband and wife, family in general - and God's calling Himself Father to make US His family - are all a part of His plan.

Israel and "The Church" are depicted in scripture as a woman or "daughter" and Mary was the woman in which Israel and "The Church" (Old Testament and New) intersected. The Book of Revelation ends with an allusion to "The Bride" of Christ (which is US, the Church if we stay faithful).

And though I'm a man, the example of Mary (Christian number one) and her intimate relationship with Jesus (not just physically either) is a joyful thing to ponder.

More joyful still when one considers that Jesus wants to be just as intimate with US.

Although of course our union will be more one of the spirit - but in a manner as intimate possibly as Mary's.

One final thought is that if one REALLY studies or meditates on Mary and her life - "the Lord is with (her) ..." at all times.

Just as women might need to stretch a bit spiritually to identify with Jesus (though meditations like "being the Bride" or the beloved of the Lord might come easier); men can benefit from pondering the relationship of Mary to Jesus.

Oh, Woody, the Catholic Church NEVER makes a divine claim for Mary. There is a Trinity of persons in the One God -- and Mary is not one of these. On the OTHER hand, she is highly honored (by God first, and then of course by his Church).

The apostle John's awesome vision of a woman "clothed with the Sun" her head crowned by 12 stars and the moon at her feet (Revelation 12:!) is a vision of the Church in glory -- but brings to mind Mary who gave birth to Jesus, is called "most blessed among women" and is our patron saint and model.

Mary is "not God". Nor "a god". She IS a GIFT from God. When we accept that gift with joy - the deeper intimacy with God that comes along with it is much better than all the intellectual skepticism one sees with Maryphobia. ;-)

Hi Woody I agree that sometimes the literal and figuritive language can get confusing. But with this it is figuritive. I think CaptFun explained it really well, and I'll just add that another of Mary's titles is the Ark of the New Covenant, with Jesus as the New Covenant. That obviously is also figuritive. I find these titles so interesting because there is so much more than meets the eye. Check this out http://www.catholicculture.org/cultu...TOKEN=83472528 It's really amazing

Woody, all the writings of the Church Fathers are here in alphabetical order:: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/index.html

A better place for a beginner to start IMO is with Rob Bennett's book, FOUR WITNESSES, The Early Church in Her Own Words. Bennett is a convert to Catholicism. He concentrates on Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr, and Irenaeus of Lyons. These are known as Early Church Fathers.

The Church Fathers are great to read. Reading them is like looking through a window into the very Early Church, what she believed and practiced. They confirm Church doctrine, but are not its source. The source of Church doctrine is the teaching of the Apostles, expressed both in Sacred Scripture and Sacred Apostolic Tradition, as taught by the Magisterium (the teaching authority of the Church), under the guidance of the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-18, John 14:26, John 15:26, John 16:7-15).

I am a convert of many years. I will be glad to help answer your questions.

Catholic Answers has an extensive library where you can also find official answers on just about any question you may have.

Blessings on your journey,

Jim Dandy

CaptFun,

Thanks for your answer on Mary as the new Eve. I have heard many beautiful talks on that subject, but you have put everything together in such a beautiful and concise way. Thank you for your explanation. God Bless

shmer737,

Glad you are here. Happy to help in anyway I can. God bless.

Hello everybody,
Not quite sure how this works exactly -- just stumbled upon this forum a little while ago -- but I am also a Protestant who is studying the Catholic church profusely and looking for answers. Thought this might be a lovely place to start...

By the way, thank you Woody87. Answering your question on Mary as the New Eve reminded me of how wonderful God's plan is for us all.

She hasn't been canonized like Mary, but I hope Eve and Adam are safely home with Jesus by now! With my dear Grandparents, Mom and so many others who helped me to even know there WAS a Jesus - and to know, love and serve Him. :-)

Seek and ye shall find! Your seeking rekindled some beautiful things in me - thanks again!

Hi Woody87!
Welcome! I am a recent convert and am still learning much but after 3 years of study I made my decision that I needed to become Catholic...I am so very, very grateful for my decision. The Catholic faith is so SOLID. Coming from a protestant background from different protestant faiths I am amazed how solid it is! I recommend listening to various CD's or reading books by either of the two (there are more of course) but my favorites: 1st Peter Kreeft ( a former protestant) and Scott Hahn (also a former protestant) Very helpful. Go to Ignatius Press and get any CD's or books from them. They will answer many questions you have!

In Christ,
mlz

Hi Woody87!

Regarding your Qs on Mary as the "New Eve".

1) Yes the order is reversed. According to the flesh Adam came first then God took his physical rib and cloned it into a woman, Eve who became "the mother of all living" (according to the flesh) but also the person who first accepted sin into her life and brought it into the lives of others beginning with Adam. Who also fell instead of
helping his mate and keeping God's law.

The reversal in order: Like Eve, Mary was created without sin. SHE not Eve is called "most blessed among women"; and "full of grace (God's special favor(s)". Where Eve is the first sinner - Mary is the first person to accept Jesus into her life (the first Christian - "New Eve" according to the spirit as it were).

The "New Adam" (a name scripture calls Jesus) of course did not come from Mary's rib but by overshadowing of Mary by the Holy Spirit (as explained to her by the Angel Gabriel).

This "reverse order" would correspond to a new order of reparation. It was the woman Eve who initially brought sin into the world (a victory for Satan); and so the Lord elected to begin His work of redemption by beginning with another woman.

This "Woman" (Mary) gives birth to the Word of God become flesh. True God and true man.

In Genesis 3:15 Satan (the snake) was told God would put enmity between him (Satan) and "The Woman" - and that her offspring would strike at his head while he struck at his heel.

This eventual victory of the "woman's offspring" over the devil is seen a being complete in the person of Jesus Christ (and His mystical body the Church).

Mary is Jesus' mother - ergo the "New Eve" or obedient woman vs. the rebellious woman who brought sin and death.

In contrast to falling to the fallen Angel's temptation - the "New Eve" acceeds to an obedient Angel's message and says "let it be done unto me according to thy word!"

In contrast to Eve tempting Adam to eat the forbidden fruit - Mary calls others to obey Jesus telling them " ... do whatever he tells you."

A more perfect and concise example of a person fulfilling the two parts of the "Great Commandment" ( i.e. "Love the Lord your God with your whole mind, whole heart and whole spirit" and its counterpart "Love your neighbor as yourself.") - is not to be found superior to Mary's example.

Excepting her son's example of course - though HE is a divine person (God the Son) in the Holy Trinity!

How should a Christian view Mary? With awe. The litmus test would be to - make sure our attitude towards Mary is MUCH closer to Jesus' than Satan's (enmity against the obedient woman of the promise). :-)

Hello again Woody,
I'll try to clarify things. First off, I'm not an expert on Vatican II, but you just happen to catch me at a time when I am going through the documents myself. You often hear that many of the changes made in the Church after Vatican II were "in the spirit of Vatican II" which ironically is completely opposite of what the documents say.

You have to remember that Vatican II took place in the early 60's during a cultural revolution in the U.S. And Vatian II was held in pre-internet era. These days, anyone can read the documents for themselves, but back then that wasn't the way things were done. There was a small group of people at Vatican II that wanted a more liberal/modernist approach to be set in place, but the Church doesn't and can't work outside of the traditions, and teaching handed down through the BIble, councils, etc... Well, it was the message of these liberalist/modernist that got to the U.S. through the media and initial english translation of the documents and many things were done "in the spirit of Vatican II" that were not authorized by the documents or the council. I think the cultural atmosphere at that time had a lot to do with all the problems that arised.

Thank God for the internet (when used properly) where anyone can read and listen to the words of the Pope from anywhere in the world that we may be one as Christ prayed we would (John 17:21).