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-   -   Crucifixes (http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=138927)

leonie Mar 14, '07 9:27 am

Crucifixes
 
My 12 year old daughter is selling crucifixes to raise money for camp.

I wasn't sure if she should ask her nonCatholic friends and family to buy one. On one hand, I think it would be a nice way to share a Catholic tradition. And, on the other, I worried that it might upset people.

I'm not completely sure why nonCatholics are offended by the crucifix. :confused:

catholicmessage Mar 14, '07 9:41 am

Re: Crucifixes
 
I don't see any harm in asking. They can always so no. If a particular person is very touchy about such things, maybe you should avoid asking them, but for the average non-Catholic, I don't think they would be offended, especially if it is a 12 year old girl doing the asking.

It is an excellent opportunity to evangelize!

Jayda Mar 14, '07 10:02 am

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by leonie (Post 1997766)
My 12 year old daughter is selling crucifixes to raise money for camp.

I wasn't sure if she should ask her nonCatholic friends and family to buy one. On one hand, I think it would be a nice way to share a Catholic tradition. And, on the other, I worried that it might upset people.

I'm not completely sure why nonCatholics are offended by the crucifix. :confused:


hola leonie,

be careful... i cannot remember exactly but i think there is a prohibition about giving consecrated things to non believers especially if there is a potential that they do not treat these things reverently... maybe you could ask a priest first?

Dios te bendiga

lizaanne Mar 14, '07 10:22 am

Re: Crucifixes
 
I don't believe she said they would be consecrated items. If I'm not mistaken, something is not consecrated unless specifically blessed by a priest.

~Liza

Publisher Mar 14, '07 12:17 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
My aunt was Catholic. When she died they gave me her crucifix. That was 20 years ago, I still have it hanging on my wall.

I have an Orthodox icon "crucifix" hanging next to it which an Orthodox friend gave to me as I had been reading about St. Francis and was wondering what the "San Damino" (sp) looked like...he said it was similar...I now have a replica, hanging next to my aunt's crucifix and the Orthodox one.

My tradition has not historically used crosses...in un-programmed Meetings there are no crosses or pictures or stained glass.

I have appreciated the imagery. It doesn't hurt to ask.

Kitty Chan Mar 14, '07 4:42 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by leonie (Post 1997766)
I'm not completely sure why nonCatholics are offended by the crucifix. :confused:

I could answer what I know, which may not be much :D

But Ive heard it said that Catholics left Christ on the Cross
and Hes not there anymore. That why its offending.

There could be more probably Hollywood making things creepy doesnt help. But the first is the main reason I understand.

My personal understanding is that the crucifix is a reminder of Christ dieing on the Cross, I cant believe that Catholics think Hes still there. Am I right??

Charlie Zeaiter Mar 14, '07 4:55 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by leonie (Post 1997766)
I'm not completely sure why nonCatholics are offended by the crucifix. :confused:

Some non-Catholic Christians don't believe Jesus was crucified on a cross, but rather just a pole. (This is based on ancient translation of a bible.) And they believe the cross is a satanic symbol (go figure) because the ancient roman warriors used it as their symbol for fighting.

And of course, the Catholic Church (being the whore of babylon) adapted this satanic symbol. (yeah, right)

It's so sad that the symbol of the cross can be controversial.

Kitty Chan Mar 14, '07 5:16 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
Charlie

wow :eek: some peoples kids. . . .errrr

Joe Kelley Mar 14, '07 5:32 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kitty Chan (Post 1999215)
. . .
But Ive heard it said that Catholics left Christ on the Cross
and Hes not there anymore. That why its offending.

. . .
My personal understanding is that the crucifix is a reminder of Christ dieing on the Cross, I cant believe that Catholics think Hes still there. Am I right??

Now they are upset because we leave Him in the manger in the creche.

Don't believe He is still there either. :D

Kitty Chan Mar 14, '07 7:24 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
well I guess nothing should surprise one.

btw am I right about the reminder??

Curious Mar 14, '07 7:58 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
The thread about how to present religious art in a way that's acceptable or non-offensive to Protestants is similar. I'll say this:

No Christian, Protestant or Catholic should ever be offended by pictures of Mary or by a crucifix.

These symbols are major, powerful symbols of Christianity. Whatever Christian has a problem with these needs...something. I don't even know. :mad:

KarenNC Mar 14, '07 8:01 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie Zeaiter (Post 1999290)
Some non-Catholic Christians don't believe Jesus was crucified on a cross, but rather just a pole. (This is based on ancient translation of a bible.) And they believe the cross is a satanic symbol (go figure) because the ancient roman warriors used it as their symbol for fighting.

And of course, the Catholic Church (being the whore of babylon) adapted this satanic symbol.

Which ones in particular? I have never heard this anywhere (and I've heard a *lot* of off the wall theories of this ilk).

Publisher Mar 15, '07 11:39 am

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KarenNC (Post 1999868)
Which ones in particular? I have never heard this anywhere (and I've heard a *lot* of off the wall theories of this ilk).


The JW's make a case by citing "stratos" means pole...not cross or "upright".

They at one time published a picture of Jesus being crucified with his hands above his head on an upright "torture stake".

Whether it was a "cross beam" or a "torture stake"...it shouldn't matter...he was "crucified, buried and rose again on the third day according to the scriptures."

Publisher Mar 15, '07 11:40 am

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KarenNC (Post 1999868)
Which ones in particular? I have never heard this anywhere (and I've heard a *lot* of off the wall theories of this ilk).


The JW's make a case by citing "stratos" means pole...not cross but "upright".

They at one time published a picture of Jesus being crucified with his hands above his head on an upright "torture stake".

Whether it was a "cross beam" or a "torture stake"...it shouldn't matter...he was "crucified, buried and rose again on the third day according to the scriptures."

catsrus Mar 15, '07 11:48 am

Re: Crucifixes
 
Actually, when I associated with them, they used the greek word stauros as "torture stake".
Also, they do not allow use of the word "crucified", "crucifix" or "crucifixtion" by their followers because they claim "cruci" refers to a cross......................:rolleyes:

KarenNC Mar 15, '07 11:57 am

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Publisher (Post 2001742)
The JW's make a case by citing "stratos" means pole...not cross or "upright".

They at one time published a picture of Jesus being crucified with his hands above his head on an upright "torture stake".

Whether it was a "cross beam" or a "torture stake"...it shouldn't matter...he was "crucified, buried and rose again on the third day according to the scriptures."

Thanks. That would explain why I am not familiar with that teaching--I don't know that much about JW's. Saying that JW's or Mormon's teach something, though, is usually very different than saying "some non-Catholic Christians" do so, so I am curious as to whether this is the group that Charlie meant.

BTW, just fyi, it's stauros rather than stratos, in case anyone else is looking for info--I think you may be confusing it with the Latin stratum, or layer, which gives us the prefix strato- as in stratosphere.

on fire Mar 15, '07 12:13 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Publisher (Post 2001745)
The JW's make a case by citing "stratos" means pole...not cross but "upright".

They at one time published a picture of Jesus being crucified with his hands above his head on an upright "torture stake".

Whether it was a "cross beam" or a "torture stake"...it shouldn't matter...he was "crucified, buried and rose again on the third day according to the scriptures."

Yes it does matter..Christs Church said it happened on a cross.End of discusion.Because we were witnesses when it happened and have taught since that time it is a done deal.It AMAZES me when someone tries to interpret the Bible today to say what they think a word or phrase means,when HIS Church recieved the teachings directly from Jesus and his Apostles.The first book of the Bible wasnt written for almost 30 years after His death,but the Apostles were preaching and TEACHING shortly after his Resurection.

leonie Mar 15, '07 2:08 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
My dd was showing one of the crucifixes to a Catholic adult at our ecumenical homeschool group today. And, one of the Protestant girls asked to buy one. So, my dd sold it to her. I am curious as to what her Protestant mom thought of that.

Maybe I should stop tip toeing around this group. :)

hosemonkey Mar 15, '07 2:41 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
We venerate the Crucifix because is illustrates the unfathomable love that our Lord has for us. That God Himself would take the form of sinful man and allow Himself to undergo the death of a criminal for our sake, is almost beyond comprehension. We need this constant reminder of His love for us. There is no Easter without Good Friday. An empty cross is just that, empty. Without the presence of the Man-God, it is only a pole with a crossbeam. I think that protestants are uncomfortable with the Crucifix because it is such a powerful, shattering symbol of this incomprehensible, pure Love.

JoeyWarren Mar 15, '07 2:53 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kitty Chan (Post 1999215)
I could answer what I know, which may not be much :D
But Ive heard it said that Catholics left Christ on the Cross and Hes not there anymore. That why its offending.

Someone forgot to tell John and Paul that?

John once wrote: For God so loved the world he gave he only begotten son.

Paul proclaimed that "We preached Christ crucified" and claimed "I am crucified with Christ"

It's only offending because it reminds them of how petty they are.

awantz Mar 15, '07 2:56 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by leonie (Post 1997766)
My 12 year old daughter is selling crucifixes to raise money for camp.

I wasn't sure if she should ask her nonCatholic friends and family to buy one. On one hand, I think it would be a nice way to share a Catholic tradition. And, on the other, I worried that it might upset people.

I'm not completely sure why nonCatholics are offended by the crucifix. :confused:

I'm Protestant and I'm not affended by the Crucifix. I'd say go ahead and ask.

ricmat Mar 15, '07 3:15 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
I'm Catholic, but I thought that the Protestant (or non-Catholic) objection to the Crucifix was primarily that it was "an idol that Catholics worshiped."

I understand why the OP is concerned about this.

I did a quick search and didn't see any responses like that, although maybe I missed them....

To those Protestants (or other non-Catholics) who responded that a crucifix is not an issue........that's wonderful news! Really!

Publisher Mar 15, '07 4:51 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KarenNC (Post 2001790)
Thanks. That would explain why I am not familiar with that teaching--I don't know that much about JW's. Saying that JW's or Mormon's teach something, though, is usually very different than saying "some non-Catholic Christians" do so, so I am curious as to whether this is the group that Charlie meant.

BTW, just fyi, it's stauros rather than stratos, in case anyone else is looking for info--I think you may be confusing it with the Latin stratum, or layer, which gives us the prefix strato- as in stratosphere.


Yes I was confusing the two words...thank you.

Publisher Mar 15, '07 4:55 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by on fire (Post 2001836)
Yes it does matter..Christs Church said it happened on a cross.End of discusion.Because we were witnesses when it happened and have taught since that time it is a done deal.It AMAZES me when someone tries to interpret the Bible today to say what they think a word or phrase means,when HIS Church recieved the teachings directly from Jesus and his Apostles.The first book of the Bible wasnt written for almost 30 years after His death,but the Apostles were preaching and TEACHING shortly after his Resurection.

I have no quarrel with you on the matter....he died, nailed to the tree. It wouldn't matter to me if he was nailed to an upright beam..."crucified" is "crucified"...nails were driven through his hands and feet and he died....the story of salvation through his death and resurrection would not suffer one iota...his act of love happened through nails and wood....if it's a cross...great...if it's a "torture stake"....great....he still died...and the tomb is still empty.

Publisher Mar 15, '07 5:08 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
I think you'll find most of the "conservative/evangelicals" are really "put off' by crucifixes. Most Protestants, especially from liturgical traditions, don't have a problem with them.

To make a crucifix a bone of contention with Protestants really does no one any service....from the posts here it seems to be more important to those Catholics who've responded to keep the idea up that Protestants are offended by them...most aren't...most don't really care a great deal about it...it's part of a tradition...many Protestants from liturgical traditions are somewhat comfortable with Orthodox icons...in most of the Episcopal churches and some Methodist and Prebyterian I've visited...Orthodox icons of Christ or the crucifiction are present in the sanctuary.

I think it's the Evangelcials/Fundamentalists who have the real issue.

Mannyfit75 Mar 15, '07 6:37 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Publisher (Post 2002817)
I think you'll find most of the "conservative/evangelicals" are really "put off' by crucifixes. Most Protestants, especially from liturgical traditions, don't have a problem with them.

To make a crucifix a bone of contention with Protestants really does no one any service....from the posts here it seems to be more important to those Catholics who've responded to keep the idea up that Protestants are offended by them...most aren't...most don't really care a great deal about it...it's part of a tradition...many Protestants from liturgical traditions are somewhat comfortable with Orthodox icons...in most of the Episcopal churches and some Methodist and Prebyterian I've visited...Orthodox icons of Christ or the crucifiction are present in the sanctuary.

I think it's the Evangelcials/Fundamentalists who have the real issue.

I find Evangelicals/ Fundamentalists the most hard to convince to make them understand our belief.

Kitty Chan Mar 15, '07 7:10 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeyWarren (Post 2002296)
It's only offending because it reminds them of how petty they are.

gee joey everyone in the middle of a discussion and hmmm


so joey and et el

I just stated what Ive heard other protestants state to me as to why the crufix upsets them. Just being honest here. Theres no missing what Christ did, no missing the point of what Christ did, no pettyness.

AT THE RISK of oversimplifying things

Think of it this way Catholics are reminded by Christ on a Cross and protestants are reminded by Christ not on a Cross.

KarenNC Mar 15, '07 8:08 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kitty Chan (Post 2003283)
Think of it this way Catholics are reminded by Christ on a Cross and protestants are reminded by Christ not on a Cross.

I have always found it interesting that the figure was not added until about the 5th century and then up until about 1000, one did not see the suffering Christ on the cross but the Christ Triumphant, standing upright with arms outspread.

Kitty Chan Mar 15, '07 8:18 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KarenNC (Post 2003482)
I have always found it interesting that the figure was not added until about the 5th century and then up until about 1000, one did not see the suffering Christ on the cross but the Christ Triumphant, standing upright with arms outspread.

interesting Karen also the eary christians they used the fish symbol? right, I never see a early cross of any kind.

Then there are celtic crosses and various types with different cross parts easteren I think.

My hubby doesnt like me wearing anything but a plain cross so I dont were something wrong :) He does have a point.

I hate to ask but perhaps crosses can be cultural?? and yikes even trendy??? Certainly rosarys can be as well with pearls etc. Not saying its wrong but all very interesting.

KarenNC Mar 15, '07 8:52 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
interesting Karen also the eary christians they used the fish symbol? right, I never see a early cross of any kind.

Fish, tridents, etc. A symbol has no inherent meaning on its own, only that which the culture in which it is used gives to it. There have been lots of symbols used by the Christian Church over the centuries, none of them unique to Christianity. Heck, even the pentacle was used as a Christian symbol at one time (see the device of Sir Gawain).

http://www.answers.com/topic/pentagram-2

"According to Heather Child's Christian Symbols, Ancient and Modern[6], the pentagram is a symbol of the five senses. Also, when the letters S, A, L, V, and S are inscribed in the points, the pentagram is a symbol of health (Latin salūs).

Medieval Christians believed it to symbolize the five wounds of Christ. The pentagram was believed to protect against witches and demons.[7]

The pentagram figured in the heavily symbolic Arthurian romances.[7] It appears on the shield of Sir Gawain in the 14th Century poem, Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. In the poem the five lines of the star are given multiple meanings: they represent the five senses, five fingers, the five wounds of Christ[8], the five joys that Mary had of Jesus (the Annunciation, the Nativity, the Resurrection, the Ascension and the Assumption), and the five virtues of knighthood which Gawain hopes to embody: frankness, fellowship, purity, courtesy and compassion.

Probably due to misinterpretation of symbols used by ceremonial magicians, it later became associated with Satanism and subsequently rejected by most of Christianity sometime in the twentieth century.[7]"

I hate to ask but perhaps crosses can be cultural?? and yikes even trendy??? Certainly rosarys can be as well with pearls etc. Not saying its wrong but all very interesting.

I would say absolutely they can be cultural and even trendy :) . Plain, ornate, with jewels, without, with extra curlicues. those that represent different saints (St. Peter's Cross), different areas (Jerusalem Cross), Celtic and Norse crosses with interlace, all sorts. Artistic convention, as well as use of plainer or more ornate materials to reflect the wealth or position of the wearer (say a more elaborate one for an abbot) or the piety/vow of poverty, in the case of a plain one for a monastic, for instance.

leonie Mar 16, '07 10:28 am

Re: Crucifixes
 
Thanks to everyone for their responses. It's really helpful. The group we are involved with is mostly evangelical and fundamental Protestants, so I guess we'll probably just refrain from doing our fundraiser there.

I guess one reason that I'm hesitant about any "Catholic" type issues in this group is because a few of the moms are uncomfortable having Catholics in the group. And, this year the number of Catholics went from two families to five families out of 25 total.

Because I'm so steeped in my Catholic identity, I'm trying to be very careful about how I present my Faith in the group. Sometimes, I'm not sure what are big issues for evangelical Protestants. I know the Pope and Mary, but some of the other stuff.....just not sure.

JoeyWarren Mar 16, '07 10:55 am

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by leonie (Post 2004693)
Thanks to everyone for their responses. It's really helpful. The group we are involved with is mostly evangelical and fundamental Protestants, so I guess we'll probably just refrain from doing our fundraiser there.

I guess one reason that I'm hesitant about any "Catholic" type issues in this group is because a few of the moms are uncomfortable having Catholics in the group. And, this year the number of Catholics went from two families to five families out of 25 total.

Because I'm so steeped in my Catholic identity, I'm trying to be very careful about how I present my Faith in the group. Sometimes, I'm not sure what are big issues for evangelical Protestants. I know the Pope and Mary, but some of the other stuff.....just not sure.

Refraining is a good idea since we have this new information.

kellyann Mar 16, '07 4:14 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by catholicmessage (Post 1997812)
I don't see any harm in asking. They can always so no. If a particular person is very touchy about such things, maybe you should avoid asking them, but for the average non-Catholic, I don't think they would be offended, especially if it is a 12 year old girl doing the asking.

It is an excellent opportunity to evangelize!

I think it would be just fine, I am 13 and have no catholic friends I would ask them if they wanted to buy one then if they got affended I would ask them why and then tell them why they should not get affended and mabe if you would explain it then mabe they will get the idea

leonie Mar 16, '07 5:31 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kellyann (Post 2005904)
I think it would be just fine, I am 13 and have no catholic friends I would ask them if they wanted to buy one then if they got affended I would ask them why and then tell them why they should not get affended and mabe if you would explain it then mabe they will get the idea

Thanks Kellyann, it would be a nice opportunity for my daughter to learn how to explain the crucifix and why it important to Catholics. I'll talk to her and see if she feels confident enough to answer questions.

kellyann Mar 16, '07 6:22 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by leonie (Post 2006203)
Thanks Kellyann, it would be a nice opportunity for my daughter to learn how to explain the crucifix and why it important to Catholics. I'll talk to her and see if she feels confident enough to answer questions.

good luck!:thumbsup: I will pray for her and you.

Kitty Chan Mar 16, '07 6:27 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KarenNC (Post 2003576)
interesting Karen also the eary christians they used the fish symbol? right, I never see a early cross of any kind.

Fish, tridents, etc. A symbol has no inherent meaning on its own, only that which the culture in which it is used gives to it. There have been lots of symbols used by the Christian Church over the centuries, none of them unique to Christianity. Heck, even the pentacle was used as a Christian symbol at one time (see the device of Sir Gawain).

http://www.answers.com/topic/pentagram-2

"According to Heather Child's Christian Symbols, Ancient and Modern[6], the pentagram is a symbol of the five senses. Also, when the letters S, A, L, V, and S are inscribed in the points, the pentagram is a symbol of health (Latin salūs).

Medieval Christians believed it to symbolize the five wounds of Christ. The pentagram was believed to protect against witches and demons.[7]

The pentagram figured in the heavily symbolic Arthurian romances.[7] It appears on the shield of Sir Gawain in the 14th Century poem, Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. In the poem the five lines of the star are given multiple meanings: they represent the five senses, five fingers, the five wounds of Christ[8], the five joys that Mary had of Jesus (the Annunciation, the Nativity, the Resurrection, the Ascension and the Assumption), and the five virtues of knighthood which Gawain hopes to embody: frankness, fellowship, purity, courtesy and compassion.

Probably due to misinterpretation of symbols used by ceremonial magicians, it later became associated with Satanism and subsequently rejected by most of Christianity sometime in the twentieth century.[7]"

I hate to ask but perhaps crosses can be cultural?? and yikes even trendy??? Certainly rosarys can be as well with pearls etc. Not saying its wrong but all very interesting.

I would say absolutely they can be cultural and even trendy :) . Plain, ornate, with jewels, without, with extra curlicues. those that represent different saints (St. Peter's Cross), different areas (Jerusalem Cross), Celtic and Norse crosses with interlace, all sorts. Artistic convention, as well as use of plainer or more ornate materials to reflect the wealth or position of the wearer (say a more elaborate one for an abbot) or the piety/vow of poverty, in the case of a plain one for a monastic, for instance.

Interesting Karen I admit to still uncomfortableness on a pentagram, Id still leave it alone, its been claimed since, if God wants it back Hed have to achieve it.

Another thing about the cross and crucufix is different people interpert it differently. My friend was wearing a Crucufix and in the middle of putting together a costume for a video and the girl in the shop said oh you will have to get rid of the crucfix as its sin and you shouldnt have it on. So away from catholic and protestant circles the interpertations vary.

So I guess I dont know I guess let catholics have a reminder of Christ on the Cross and protestants have a reminder of Christ off the Cross.

water Mar 16, '07 6:36 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kitty Chan (Post 2006470)
So I guess I dont know I guess let catholics have a reminder of Christ on the Cross and protestants have a reminder of Christ off the Cross.

I would say Catholics have a reminder of Christ both on and off the Cross.

On the Cross, He died for our sins - that is His greatest mercy towards us. On the Cross, He is offering us His body and blood in the Eucharist - thanks for the daily Mass. His dying on the Cross also reminds us of His great victory over dead.

Off the cross, He is a very loving, gentle and closing to each one of us as a brother, friend, and father. Each one of us reminds of Him - that is to love one another.

Kitty Chan Mar 16, '07 6:49 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
oh water thanks but to be clear we were discussing cross versus crucifix.

Is a crucifix a reminder of Christ on the Cross? I know you just said different, but Karen and I were trying to determine if there is a difference other than the visual.

As a cross symbolises what you just said.

water Mar 16, '07 7:06 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kitty Chan (Post 2006592)
oh water thanks but to be clear we were discussing cross versus crucifix.

Is a crucifix a reminder of Christ on the Cross? I know you just said different, but Karen and I were trying to determine if there is a difference other than the visual.

As a cross symbolises what you just said.


In my mother language, we only use one word for both cross and crucifix.

But in English : cross does not have Jesus on, but the crucifix does.

I think some protestants are ok with the cross but not with crucifix for they think it is idolatry.

With or without Jesus on the cross, I personally think of both of them representing the same meanings. With the image of Jesus on the cross, it reminds me even more of His painful death on the cross for my sin. The more I think of his image, the more it helps me to stay away from sin.

Kitty Chan Mar 16, '07 7:29 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by water (Post 2006643)
In my mother language, we only use one word for both cross and crucifix.

But in English : cross does not have Jesus on, but the crucifix does.

I think some protestants are ok with the cross but not with crucifix for they think it is idolatry.

With or without Jesus on the cross, I personally think of both of them representing the same meanings. With the image of Jesus on the cross, it reminds me even more of His painful death on the cross for my sin. The more I think of his image, the more it helps me to stay away from sin.

Whats your mother language if its not too forward to ask? :)

Others have told me about the catholic religion (not catholics :) that Catholics have left Christ on the Cross. After this discussion Im beggining to think they did not. (what you said elsewhere about us understanding each other.)

I like what you say "with or without Jesus on the cross the meaning is the same." I really think I agree. On a side note my sis-in-love has a lady at her church who painted a portrait of Christ on the Cross. She used (Im away from home right now so Im trying to remember) but wine vinegar linen etc for the painting and then made copies and sells them for profits for missions.

the painting is amazing so I bought one. I hadnt thought of it this way before this thread but it explains why some are slightly repulsed by it. Im looking at it in my minds eye right now and thinking about what you said. It can be a powerful reminder of things, doesnt have to be the only one but can certainly be one.

ricmat Mar 16, '07 8:10 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
I can see why some early Christians used a cross instead of a crucifix - if you're a poor peasant, you could make your own cross, but carving a corpus might be tough. It would be for me.

Also, think about this.

The cross by itself is irrevelant to our salvation. The cross didn't save us, Christ's passion and death saved us. The cross was merely the instrument used to kill Christ, as it was used to kill thousands of others at the time. As a simple reminder, it's OK, especially if it's all you have, but it's not as complete as the crucifix, even though they might have the same meaning to different people.

In more modern terms, say, for example, that you think JFK (John F. Kennedy) was the best president the USA ever had. You want to have a reminder in your home. So would you paint a picture of JFK and hang it on the wall, or would you paint a picture of the gun that was used to kill him, and hang that on the wall?

awantz Mar 16, '07 8:16 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
The crucifix reminds us of Christ's death and the cross reminds us of Christ's resurrection.

Kitty Chan Mar 16, '07 8:17 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
good point ricmac

something else, what if the govt outlawed religion and took away all the crosses crucifixes and burned the churches.

Would it crumble our faith if we didnt have "stuff" to worship with?

Perhaps why God Word is to be on our hearts so we dont become obsessed with the stuff.

ricmat Mar 16, '07 8:28 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
No, the outlawing of crucifixes and/or crosses would not cause anyone's faith to crumble, at least no one I know.

In terms of Crucifix - Death, and Cross - Resurrection, Christ didn't resurrect from the cross. He resurrected from the tomb. An empty tomb would be a better reminder than an empty cross, IMHO, although I do see your point.

Here's a new thought - It wasn't until Jesus' ascention into Heaven that his sacrifice on the cross was "complete" as he then offered it to God the Father. This parallels the old Jewish sacrifices where the (animal) victim was killed outside the tabernacle in step 1. But the offering was not complete until the priest took the sacrifice inside the holy of holies and actually offered it to God as step 2. So the resurrection, in my own mind, was necessary step along the way to the ascention. At least, I think that's how Scott Hahn explained it......

KarenNC Mar 16, '07 8:32 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kitty Chan (Post 2006470)
Interesting Karen I admit to still uncomfortableness on a pentagram, Id still leave it alone, its been claimed since, if God wants it back Hed have to achieve it.

I wouldn't seriously suggest that a modern Christian use it in such a way (though the Episcopal Church in which I was married, built in the 1850s, has one in the center of the rose window). Just pointing out that symbols can change over time and it's all about context.

water Mar 16, '07 8:46 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kitty Chan (Post 2006717)
Whats your mother language if its not too forward to ask? :)

Vietnamese.
The words Cross or Crucifix is called "Thanh Gia" in my language. ;)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kitty Chan (Post 2006717)
Others have told me about the catholic religion (not catholics :) that Catholics have left Christ on the Cross. After this discussion Im beggining to think they did not. (what you said elsewhere about us understanding each other.)

yes, I hadn't known some had this thought until I came to this site; I am glad you are beginning to think it is not the case that we left Christ on the Cross. One of the members here said once that Catholic thought of Jesus always being on the Cross, but his own daughter thought of Jesus as a very loving and gentle God. In fact, we believe the same thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kitty Chan (Post 2006717)
the painting is amazing so I bought one. I hadnt thought of it this way before this thread but it explains why some are slightly repulsed by it. Im looking at it in my minds eye right now and thinking about what you said. It can be a powerful reminder of things, doesnt have to be the only one but can certainly be one.

Yes, it is not about worshiping the images, but it is there to remind us something had actually happened in the past.

Depending on cultures, crucifix, statues or images can be decorated differently. I've realized that Hispanics decorate statues of Virgin Mary or the crucifix quite different than my Vietnamese culture. It is just purely art there..

As a picture of our loved ones, it reminds us of the moments we were with them, things that person had done for us, things that we had done together. With Jesus, although we were not with Him while He was on earth 2000 years ago, but we know that He is and always be with us in our heart, mind, and soul.
However, we are human being and God gives us a mind to visualize things; therefore, the images/statues, and alike are here for us to somehow strengthen a physical as well as spiritual connection with God and those in Heaven.

Kitty Chan Mar 16, '07 9:01 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KarenNC (Post 2006952)
I wouldn't seriously suggest that a modern Christian use it in such a way (though the Episcopal Church in which I was married, built in the 1850s, has one in the center of the rose window). Just pointing out that symbols can change over time and it's all about context.

oh no problem karen and I do understand symbols do change even read waters post on how different cultures see symbols.

I was told once that in romania they do not like pictures of Christ dont know if its true or just true of some there. A friend was a missionary there.

Kitty Chan Mar 16, '07 9:40 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by water (Post 2006990)
Vietnamese.
The words Cross or Crucifix is called "Thanh Gia" in my language. ;)

yes, I hadn't known some had this thought until I came to this site; I am glad you are beginning to think it is not the case that we left Christ on the Cross. One of the members here said once that Catholic thought of Jesus always being on the Cross, but his own daughter thought of Jesus as a very loving and gentle God. In fact, we believe the same thing.

Thanks! Well Im convinced catholics didnt leave Jesus on the Cross and will correct those I hear say it, nicely like you :D


Quote:

Yes, it is not about worshiping the images, but it is there to remind us something had actually happened in the past.

Depending on cultures, crucifix, statues or images can be decorated differently. I've realized that Hispanics decorate statues of Virgin Mary or the crucifix quite different than my Vietnamese culture. It is just purely art there..

Im thinking the worshipping images and this is observations I have had, comes from one example I have is say with a Catholic church in I dont know for sure but lets say for sake of discussion South America. The people there had their own gods and God was simply added to the mix. so they would add Jesus and Mary statues to the lot and continue to worship them. Therefore the statues while supposed to be a reminder become the worshipped.

Also the bible warning not to worship images.

The whole topic of signs and images is touchy, while they can be good they certainly are not needed for faith. That may be why protestants avoid them.

water Mar 16, '07 10:14 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kitty Chan (Post 2007157)
Im thinking the worshipping images and this is observations I have had, comes from one example I have is say with a Catholic church in I dont know for sure but lets say for sake of discussion South America. The people there had their own gods and God was simply added to the mix. so they would add Jesus and Mary statues to the lot and continue to worship them. Therefore the statues while supposed to be a reminder become the worshipped.

Also the bible warning not to worship images.

The whole topic of signs and images is touchy, while they can be good they certainly are not needed for faith. That may be why protestants avoid them.

This is one the most debated topic. I could not tell exactly how South Americans think....there are cultural differences, and that can mislead others to think differently. I would leave this part alone with no further discussion until I learn more about their culture.

I've learned not to jump to something so quick without learning first. To know what others think is to ask them directly, we can be mislead by learning from someone else who doesn't even know much.

For example, my brother is going to Cambodia for 2 years. I am sure he will need to bow down to Cambodian as part of their culture. He is a protestant and I probably will ask him if he has anything against bowing down to someone or if he will think that is idolatry for bowing down to people. :D

Kitty Chan Mar 17, '07 6:41 am

Re: Crucifixes
 
Its a good thing not to jump without knowing first and to be clear I cannot think of a specific example it was long ago I heard it, just thinking of this topic in general and think it has if nothing else partly to do with the idea of catholic idolatry.

As for your brother is he bowing to a Cambodian person? If so then Ive been doing it wrong all my life. :D I never thought of bowing to another as idolatry. Where I live there is alot of Asian people and some amoung my friends.

I have always done the slight bow when greeting. I actually perfer it over a hand shake. Then theres tipping a hat whiich is a bit of a bow. and meeting the Queen (England) would require a bow.

I take it all as a sign of respect not worship. Now bowing to a Buddah no I would not do that. I would be respectful but not reverant.

JoeyWarren Mar 17, '07 7:46 am

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

somebody said: The crucifix reminds us of Christ's death and the cross reminds us of Christ's resurrection.
We need a reality check here.

The Crucifix reminds us of Christ Death.

The Empty Cross reminds us that he got taken down from the Cross by those that loved him.

The Empty Tomb is what reminds us of Christ's resurrection.

Christ was resurrected from the Tomb.
Christ was not resurrected from the Cross.

awantz Mar 17, '07 7:54 am

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeyWarren (Post 2008046)
The Empty Cross reminds us that he got taken down from the Cross by those that loved him.

The Empty Tomb is what reminds us of Christ's resurrection.

Christ was resurrected from the Tomb.
Christ was not resurrected from the Cross.

Yes, but no one has created an empty tomb. So, Protestants use the empty cross instead.

JoeyWarren Mar 17, '07 8:10 am

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by awantz (Post 2008068)
Yes, but no one has created an empty tomb. So, Protestants use the empty cross instead.

Well create one then. We have. It is depicted on the Stations of the Cross as well as the Shrine that surrounds it in Jerusalem.

awantz Mar 17, '07 8:27 am

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeyWarren (Post 2008102)
Well create one then. We have. It is depicted on the Stations of the Cross as well as the Shrine that surrounds it in Jerusalem.

I don't know how to create things like that. I'm not an artist. Plus, a cross comes across more clearer to a nonchristian than a empty tomb.

jack hawkins Mar 17, '07 8:29 am

Re: Crucifixes
 
from my experience Protestants inc Pentecostals wouldn't be offended by crucifixes (although obviously they probably would by statues of Mary - I could tell you a personal anecdote there but that would be digressing), they just prefer crosses because they emphasize the resurrection over the actual crucifixion.

cubalibre Mar 17, '07 9:52 am

Re: Crucifixes
 
Kitty Chan Posted:
"Im thinking the worshipping images and this is observations I have had, comes from one example I have is say with a Catholic church in I dont know for sure but lets say for sake of discussion South America. The people there had their own gods and God was simply added to the mix. so they would add Jesus and Mary statues to the lot and continue to worship them. Therefore the statues while supposed to be a reminder become the worshipped."
There may well be indigenous cultures that mix pagan and Christian images. In Cuba where I am from the Santeria religion does that. Catholic churches in South America or Cuba for that matter do not do that. I do not know why you decided to pick South America as your example. Its very offensive to Catholics to be accused of idolatry or polytheism. I know many American Catholics can be put off by the fervent worship of many Latin Americans or Catholics in Asia or Africa. But the faith is the same. Jesus is the same. If you go to a Church in Caracas, Buenos Aires, Mexico City or Havana it will be the same as it is in New York City.
Saludos, cubalibre

Joe Kelley Mar 17, '07 11:34 am

Re: Crucifixes
 
How many empty crosses have you seen that have nail holes and blood on them. The ones I have seen all look unused.

JoeyWarren Mar 17, '07 1:34 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Kelley (Post 2008606)
How many empty crosses have you seen that have nail holes and blood on them. The ones I have seen all look unused.

Have not seen one yet.

awantz Mar 17, '07 1:43 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jack hawkins (Post 2008147)
from my experience Protestants inc Pentecostals wouldn't be offended by crucifixes (although obviously they probably would by statues of Mary - I could tell you a personal anecdote there but that would be digressing), they just prefer crosses because they emphasize the resurrection over the actual crucifixion.

I think the reason why Protestants want to emphasize the resurrection over the crucifixion is, because anyone can be crucified, but not everyone can be resurrected like Christ was. The resurrection is kinda like proff that Jesus is God and that makes the crucifiction alot more meaningful. If it was anyone else on that cross what bgood would that do us? NONE

JoeyWarren Mar 17, '07 2:43 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by awantz (Post 2008957)
I think the reason why Protestants want to emphasize the resurrection over the crucifixion is, because anyone can be crucified, but not everyone can be resurrected like Christ was. The resurrection is kinda like proff that Jesus is God and that makes the crucifiction alot more meaningful. If it was anyone else on that cross what bgood would that do us? NONE

My stepmother taught Sunday School when I was young. She said that the Crucifix was created to mock the christians. And she said that the peace symbol was another Catholic invention to mock the cross.

awantz Mar 17, '07 2:58 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeyWarren (Post 2009125)
My stepmother taught Sunday School when I was young. She said that the Crucifix was created to mock the christians. And she said that the peace symbol was another Catholic invention to mock the cross.

My stepfather and I have tought Sunday School as well. Neither one of us teaches or taught anything like that before. I don't know where she was coming from.

JoeyWarren Mar 17, '07 3:11 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by awantz (Post 2009159)
My stepfather and I have tought Sunday School as well. Neither one of us teaches or taught anything like that before. I don't know where she was coming from.

Probably from the same type of people that created the "Stigmata Mary".

KarenNC Mar 17, '07 3:43 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kitty Chan (Post 2007157)
Im thinking the worshipping images and this is observations I have had, comes from one example I have is say with a Catholic church in I dont know for sure but lets say for sake of discussion South America. The people there had their own gods and God was simply added to the mix. so they would add Jesus and Mary statues to the lot and continue to worship them. Therefore the statues while supposed to be a reminder become the worshipped.

Wanted to point out that in at least most polytheistic cultures (there may be some exceptions of which I am not aware), they are not "worshipping" the statues of their Gods any more than a Catholic "worships" a statue of Mary or the saints or the Crucifix. The statues are symbols, reminders, foci for intent--basically the same purpose they serve in Catholicism. This was true in antiquity and it is true now.

Joe Kelley Mar 17, '07 5:50 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeyWarren (Post 2009125)
My stepmother taught Sunday School when I was young. She said that the Crucifix was created to mock the christians. And she said that the peace symbol was another Catholic invention to mock the cross.

As I recall the cross was used by early Christians to mark the graves of martyrs.

Kitty Chan Mar 17, '07 7:34 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cubalibre (Post 2008330)
Kitty Chan Posted:
"Im thinking the worshipping images and this is observations I have had, comes from one example I have is say with a Catholic church in I dont know for sure but lets say for sake of discussion South America. The people there had their own gods and God was simply added to the mix. so they would add Jesus and Mary statues to the lot and continue to worship them. Therefore the statues while supposed to be a reminder become the worshipped."
There may well be indigenous cultures that mix pagan and Christian images. In Cuba where I am from the Santeria religion does that. Catholic churches in South America or Cuba for that matter do not do that. I do not know why you decided to pick South America as your example. Its very offensive to Catholics to be accused of idolatry or polytheism. I know many American Catholics can be put off by the fervent worship of many Latin Americans or Catholics in Asia or Africa. But the faith is the same. Jesus is the same. If you go to a Church in Caracas, Buenos Aires, Mexico City or Havana it will be the same as it is in New York City.
Saludos, cubalibre

cubalibre

I picked South America only because the place I heard of was below the States. And the name escaped me so I tried to pick a big place, I was trying hard not to offend. But still did that so to that I apolgise.

Perhaps it was Cuba but I heard it years ago and cannot remember. What you saying Water touched on with Hispanics having decorated statues of Mary. Although I do not know any examples that you mention when you say American Catholics are put off by the feverent worship, I think I know what you mean, but am not positive.

So if I understand you then you follow the same Catholic things they do in America. Im NOT testing you just curious, I think this is another area for everyone to learn understanding. Would the mass be similar? What would be different? Just simple examples. Because I really dont know and I find it interesting. What you said about Jesus being the same is quite true. :)

Kitty Chan Mar 17, '07 7:38 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KarenNC (Post 2009263)
Wanted to point out that in at least most polytheistic cultures (there may be some exceptions of which I am not aware), they are not "worshipping" the statues of their Gods any more than a Catholic "worships" a statue of Mary or the saints or the Crucifix. The statues are symbols, reminders, foci for intent--basically the same purpose they serve in Catholicism. This was true in antiquity and it is true now.

I think this is why protestants avoid the statues altogether so there will be no mistakes, just my guess.

Kitty Chan Mar 17, '07 7:42 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
[Quote:]
Originally Posted by JoeyWarren
The Empty Cross reminds us that he got taken down from the Cross by those that loved him.

The Empty Tomb is what reminds us of Christ's resurrection.

Christ was resurrected from the Tomb.
Christ was not resurrected from the Cross. .[/quote]

Quote:

Originally Posted by awantz (Post 2008068)
Yes, but no one has created an empty tomb. So, Protestants use the empty cross instead.

Good points, and yea it would be hard to wear a cave around the neck and like Karen pointed out its a symbol.

Used to be the fish symbol.

lak611 Mar 17, '07 8:20 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by awantz (Post 2008957)
I think the reason why Protestants want to emphasize the resurrection over the crucifixion is, because anyone can be crucified, but not everyone can be resurrected like Christ was. The resurrection is kinda like proff that Jesus is God and that makes the crucifiction alot more meaningful. If it was anyone else on that cross what bgood would that do us? NONE

There are also Risen Christ crucifixes. For my father's funeral, the crucifix in his casket depicted a Risen Christ.

Zirconia Mar 18, '07 12:02 am

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Kelley (Post 2008606)
How many empty crosses have you seen that have nail holes and blood on them. The ones I have seen all look unused.

The important part about it should be that it reminds you of the love and sacrifice involved in your redemption, not necessarily whether it is realistic or not.

Did you know, the traditional six-paneled door (two squares on top, two longer rectangles in the middle, and two of the same size beneath) was intended to be a reminder? The top part makes a cross, and the bottom part represents the open Bible.

I have actually found this unrealistic and almost abstract representation to be a quite effective reminder whenever I get to feeling like God hates me or is holding a grudge against me. For me it works as well as (if not better than) a sculptural or other more detailed representation.

So to each their own...

Zirconia

patrick457 Mar 18, '07 1:38 am

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kitty Chan (Post 2010053)
Good points, and yea it would be hard to wear a cave around the neck and like Karen pointed out its a symbol.

Used to be the fish symbol.

At least we could have necklaces of the Empty Tomb with Pop-up Figures of the Resurrected Jesus inside them.

Though, if that happens, will Satanists wear an upside-down Empty Tomb?

AlegreFe Mar 18, '07 1:51 am

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by leonie (Post 2004693)
Thanks to everyone for their responses. It's really helpful. The group we are involved with is mostly evangelical and fundamental Protestants, so I guess we'll probably just refrain from doing our fundraiser there.

I guess one reason that I'm hesitant about any "Catholic" type issues in this group is because a few of the moms are uncomfortable having Catholics in the group. And, this year the number of Catholics went from two families to five families out of 25 total.

Because I'm so steeped in my Catholic identity, I'm trying to be very careful about how I present my Faith in the group. Sometimes, I'm not sure what are big issues for evangelical Protestants. I know the Pope and Mary, but some of the other stuff.....just not sure.

Why are you in this "ecumenical" Homeschool group instead of a strictly CATHOLIC Homeschool group? I don't see anything wrong with that but if you feel uncomfortable there then why be there?

If I were in that group with my daughter I guess I would be kind of glad :p that some moms there are uncomfortable with having Catholics there. hehehe:D

I guess since you're already there you can just "preach" your faith by being a "silent" witness by showing love to everyone there. Saint Francis said to only use words when necessary. ;)

AlegreFe Mar 18, '07 1:54 am

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kellyann (Post 2005904)
I think it would be just fine, I am 13 and have no catholic friends I would ask them if they wanted to buy one then if they got affended I would ask them why and then tell them why they should not get affended and mabe if you would explain it then mabe they will get the idea

:clapping: Good for you KellyAnn! :blessyou:
My 13 year old daughter would do the same thing and she has; not with a crucifix as the opportunity never came up, but with other things Catholic. :)

AlegreFe Mar 18, '07 2:00 am

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by leonie (Post 2006203)
Thanks Kellyann, it would be a nice opportunity for my daughter to learn how to explain the crucifix and why it important to Catholics. I'll talk to her and see if she feels confident enough to answer questions.

You might be surprised about your 12 year old daughter. My daughter is 13 and she is so confident in her faith. But I wasn't sure about how she felt about sharing her faith with her friends and cousins. She is somewhat shy. But she surprises me sometimes with how profound she can get when she speaks to her friends. :) Wow! I pray for her all the time. I will pray for your daughter too. :gopray2:

AlegreFe Mar 18, '07 2:35 am

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kitty Chan (Post 2006470)
So I guess I dont know I guess let catholics have a reminder of Christ on the Cross and protestants have a reminder of Christ off the Cross.

emphasis added

Do you think that Catholics don't remember Christ off the Cross also? :)

We remember Christ on the Cross because that is how He is in Scripture. That is how Christ died for us and that is the only reason why we have GRACE in our lives today. Christ wants us to go to Heaven with Him. He knows of course, that we only get there through Him and only if His father in Heaven calls us.

Here is a remembrance of Jesus Christ in the Catholic Church;
During the Liturgy of the Word in the Catholic Mass, we remember Jesus Christ in the Sacred Scriptures. Jesus is right there in His Word during the readings. Jesus Christ is right there during the Gospel reading and that is why we stand during the reading of the Gospel, to show respect and reverance for Jesus Christ ALIVE in His Gospel (off the Cross).
During the Liturgy of the Eucharist in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass we see Jesus Crucified on the Altar (on the cross). Jesus is offered up to the Father. We receive Grace as the Mass is the most powerful prayer in the Church. When the Priest standing "In Persona Christi" says, "...this is MY BODY..." it is Jesus that has been sacrificed once on Calvery up on the Altar. After the consecration of the bread and wine, which is now the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, and after the offering up of Jesus Christ Crucified, the commingling of the Body and Blood is done by the Priest so as to represent Jesus Christ RISEN (off the cross). When we receive Jesus in Holy Communion we are united with the RESURRECTED Jesus Christ (off the cross).

So YES, wo DO remember Jesus BOTH Crucified and Risen!

AlegreFe Mar 18, '07 2:50 am

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ricmat (Post 2006878)
The cross by itself is irrevelant to our salvation. The cross didn't save us, Christ's passion and death saved us.

:yup: That is why every Catholic family should have a crucifix hanging in their home; at least one by their front door. It wouldn't hurt to hang one in each room. And it wouldn't hurt for a Protestant family to hang one by their front door too. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ricmat
The cross was merely the instrument used to kill Christ, as it was used to kill thousands of others at the time. As a simple reminder, it's OK, especially if it's all you have, but it's not as complete as the crucifix, even though they might have the same meaning to different people.

I believe that because the cross was used to kill many criminals, all by itself hanging on a wall is of no use. It's just a cross. Without Jesus on there, it means nothing on your wall. If anyone wants to hang one on there wall to remind them of their faith how could you be reminded if Jesus is not there?

The only way I would have a cross is by actually carrying a small cross in my purse telling me that it is MY cross that I need to carry and follow Jesus. If I have struggles in my life I remember what Jesus said, "... pick up your cross and follow me." So I have my small cross as a symbol to remind me of that. But as far as having one on my wall... I prefer a Crucifix, blessed of course.

AlegreFe Mar 18, '07 3:09 am

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by awantz (Post 2006903)
The crucifix reminds us of Christ's death and the cross reminds us of Christ's resurrection.

Well as far as remembering Christ's resurrection, my mom has Crucifixes all over her house but she also has a cross with Jesus Christ Risen, only one. You can click on the pic to see it on their website. She doesn't have this exact one but it's what I found online. :)



I don't know... I think the concept is kind of strange. If I want to portray Jesus Christ risen, I wouldn't have Him on the cross, :hmmm: but that's just me. I have pictures of Jesus all over. I have the Divine Mercy image, Sacred Heart image and this famous one;

I also have "Ecce Homo" but that was before He was Crucified.
Wow, that's beautiful. Both the image and His Love for us!

AlegreFe Mar 18, '07 3:34 am

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kitty Chan (Post 2006907)
....something else, what if the govt outlawed religion and took away all the crosses crucifixes and burned the churches.
Would it crumble our faith if we didnt have "stuff" to worship with?
Perhaps why God Word is to be on our hearts so we dont become obsessed with the stuff.

This makes me laugh, sorry but it does. Obsessed?!! Ha! Us having Jesus portrayed in our homes is NOT an obsession. And we don't use those images to WORSHIP God. We Worship God during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. We don't NEED those images to Worship. We have Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist. He is present right there at the Altar during the Mass.

You most likely do NOT know what Catholics mean when we say we Worship God. Catholics Worship God the way the Saints and Angels Worship God in Heaven. In fact, when Catholics are at Mass, we are actually in Heaven with all the Angels and the Saints.

As far as your statement if our images were taken away if that would "crumble our faith," that in no way would ever happen. We don't have our faith because of those images. We have our Faith because of the Grace of Jesus Christ who died on the Cross to Save us. Sure we have these images but they are only reminders. We have Jesus in our Hearts already but it doesn't hurt to have His images on our walls and even in our wallets and in our cars. Obsession?! :mad: not lauging anymore. Sorry but that was offensive. And that "stuff" is not just stuff the way you say it is. Those images of Christ and those crucifixes in my home are very important to me and my family. They are not the be all and end all of my faith but they are there for my family to remember and also to enjoy, just as we have family pictures on our walls. Jesus Christ, Mary and Joseph are all part of my family too along with different saints as I also have statues of different saints, St. Joseph, St. Therese, Infant of Prague, Our Lady of Fatima, Our Lady of Lourdes, Our Lady of Grace,... etc.

I'm sure you have little nick nack figurines in your house and pictures of different things in your home, family portraits on your wall, perhaps some oil paintings? Do you have a collection of nick nacks? Perhaps it's an obsession. :p


Okay, I think I've calmed down now. :p ;) Sorry got carried away there a wee bit. :)


Peace! :hug1:

AlegreFe Mar 18, '07 3:42 am

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ricmat (Post 2006935)
In terms of Crucifix - Death, and Cross - Resurrection, Christ didn't resurrect from the cross. He resurrected from the tomb. An empty tomb would be a better reminder than an empty cross

emphasis added

Exactly my thinking and this is why I find it strange that some people have the Risen Christ on a Cross. Nothing wrong with it I guess, after all some of them are beautiful. But I still find it strange. I prefer Jesus Christ crucified on my cross.

AlegreFe Mar 18, '07 3:58 am

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by water (Post 2006990)
Depending on cultures, crucifix, statues or images can be decorated differently. I've realized that Hispanics decorate statues of Virgin Mary or the crucifix quite different than my Vietnamese culture. It is just purely art there.

:yup: My mother dresses up her statue of "Rosa Mystica" (that's our Lady). She has a beautiful long silk veil with lace trim on her, a crown and a Rosary. She also dresses her "Infant of Prague" according to the season/liturgical calender. I have pics but not on my computer yet.

How do the Vietnamese decorate their statues? Do you have pictures? Oh perhaps we could start another thread in the Catholic Living forum? :o Sorry.

AlegreFe Mar 18, '07 4:27 am

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kitty Chan (Post 2007157)
Also the bible warning not to worship images.

We are not to make any GRAVEN images so as to not make them our idols to worship. An image of Jesus is certainly not GRAVE/deadly to us. The image of Jesus Christ crucified on a cross is FAR from a GRAVEN image.

In fact, in the old testament, God commanded Moses to make a saraph serpent and mount it on a pole so that those dying and getting sick from the snakes can look at the image and they can get well.

Numbers 21:6-9
6 In punishment the LORD sent among the
people saraph serpents, which bit the people
so that many of them died.
7 Then the people came to Moses and said,
"We have sinned in complaining against the
LORD and you. Pray the LORD to take the
serpents from us." So Moses prayed for
the people,
8 and the LORD said to Moses, "Make a
saraph and mount it on a pole, and if anyone
who has been bitten looks at it, he will recover."
9 Moses accordingly made a bronze serpent
and mounted it on a pole, and whenever anyone
who had been bitten by a serpent looked at the
bronze serpent, he recovered.


:hmmm: Hmm... that sounds a lot like our Crucifix. We can look at the Crucifix, remember how Christ died for us, Pray to God and ask for His Mercy, receive graces from that, and hmm... perhaps those prayers combined with the Rosary and the Mass can heal us too. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kitty Chan
The whole topic of signs and images is touchy, while they can be good they certainly are not needed for faith. That may be why protestants avoid them.

That's just sad IMO; the graces you can have by praying in front of a Crucifix. I don't see what's so wrong with that. It's not like we're worshipping the crucifix itself, we're not. It is just an image of Christ crucified. But just as God commanded Moses to make the saraph so that the people can look at it and recover, we too can pray in front of the crucifix and receive graces to help us "recover" from sin. It is not idolatry. Why would God tell Moses to do that if it was idolatry?

Today's "idol" is gold alright but not as the "golden calf" either. Many people have money as their idol and that is what is forbidden by God. God does not forbid us to pray in front of a Crucifix. It is only a reminder of what Jesus Christ did for us out of obedience to the Father and out of pure Love for us.

AlegreFe Mar 18, '07 4:36 am

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by awantz (Post 2008068)
...Protestants use the empty cross instead.

EMPTY is the operative word here. Two beams of wood crossing is just that, some wood on the wall.

KarenNC Mar 18, '07 4:38 am

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AlegreFe (Post 2010812)
Well as far as remembering Christ's resurrection, my mom has Crucifixes all over her house but she also has a cross with Jesus Christ Risen, only one. You can click on the pic to see it on their website. She doesn't have this exact one but it's what I found online.

This is similar to the ones that I described as being the common depiction pre-1000. Wish I could find an image online that matched the one I saw in the history book, but haven't been able to do so yet.

KarenNC Mar 18, '07 4:43 am

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AlegreFe (Post 2010837)
Us having Jesus portrayed in our homes is NOT an obsession. And we don't use those images to WORSHIP God. We Worship God during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. We don't NEED those images to Worship. ...As far as your statement if our images were taken away if that would "crumble our faith," that in no way would ever happen. We don't have our faith because of those images. ...Sure we have these images but they are only reminders. We have Jesus in our Hearts already but it doesn't hurt to have His images on our walls and even in our wallets and in our cars. Obsession?! ....Sorry but that was offensive. And that "stuff" is not just stuff the way you say it is. Those images of Christ and those crucifixes in my home are very important to me and my family. They are not the be all and end all of my faith but they are there for my family to remember and also to enjoy, just as we have family pictures on our walls. Jesus Christ, Mary and Joseph are all part of my family too along with different saints as I also have statues of different saints, St. Joseph, St. Therese, Infant of Prague, Our Lady of Fatima, Our Lady of Lourdes, Our Lady of Grace,... etc.

Thank you AlegreFe. You have given a very good illustration of the attitude that I was describing as a polytheist one toward statues of the Gods, natural elements such as trees, waterfalls, etc as well. Not that we are worshipping Jesus through them, but that we do not believe that the Gods are bound or defined by them or exist merely in that physical form.

AlegreFe Mar 18, '07 4:49 am

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by awantz (Post 2008957)
I think the reason why Protestants want to emphasize the resurrection over the crucifixion is, because anyone can be crucified, but not everyone can be resurrected like Christ was. The resurrection is kinda like proff that Jesus is God and that makes the crucifictxion alot a lot more meaningful. If it was anyone else on that cross what bgood would that do us? NONE

No one was ever "crucified" the way that Christ was. His Blood that He shed means something to us. Our lives are possible because of Jesus dying on the cross. I don't mean our current lives here on earth, I mean our eternal lives. And yes, His resurrection makes our eternal lives possible. BUT, there is no resurrection without the crucifixion. No Cross, no Crown. No Easter Sunday without Good Friday. His Crucifixion is more important than you think. Please don't downplay the Passion and Death of Jesus Christ. ;)

AlegreFe Mar 18, '07 4:56 am

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KarenNC (Post 2009263)
Wanted to point out that in at least most polytheistic cultures (there may be some exceptions of which I am not aware), they are not "worshipping" the statues of their Gods any more than a Catholic "worships" a statue of Mary or the saints or the Crucifix. The statues are symbols, reminders, foci for intent--basically the same purpose they serve in Catholicism. This was true in antiquity and it is true now.

Thank you... at least one person realizes that we are not worshipping the statues. :p ;)

AlegreFe Mar 18, '07 5:05 am

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kitty Chan (Post 2010037)
I think this is why protestants avoid the statues altogether so there will be no mistakes, just my guess.

As long as you Worship the ONE Trinitarian God, there can be no mistakes. If you have a crucifix to remind you of Christ's Passion and Death you will not be condemned, so no mistake there. There is nothing of which you should be afraid. There is nothing wrong with praying in front of a crucifix as long as you know you are not praying directly to that "image" on the wall. Try it, :D you might like it. :) Jesus won't hate you for doing that. In fact, He'll love you for it. Not that He doesn't love you already! :heart:

cubalibre Mar 18, '07 10:41 am

Re: Crucifixes
 
Kitty Chan replied:
"So if I understand you then you follow the same Catholic things they do in America. Im NOT testing you just curious, I think this is another area for everyone to learn understanding. Would the mass be similar? What would be different? Just simple examples. Because I really dont know and I find it interesting. What you said about Jesus being the same is quite true. "
__________________

You can go to any Catholic Mass in the world and it will be the same if it is in the Latin rite. The structure and the prayers, the readings from the Bible, the receiving of the Eucharist are all the same.Even though the language would be different, (French, Spanish, Vietnamese, etc) you would understand because the prayers and the structure of the Mass are identical. There are several rites within the Catholic church that are not Latin, ie, Chaldean, Maronite etc. The prayers are different but all believe and practice the identical faith passed on by the apostles. Christian symbols and practices have been adopted by other religions. In Cuba the Santeria religion incorporated the names of many Catholic saints as cover names for their African gods. This is not Catholicism. The use of images to remind us of our faith goes back to the very first Christians (Catholics of course). You can see drawings of the Virgin Mary and Jesus in the Catacombs of Rome dating to the first decades after the resurrection. Of course images were used in Judaiism as well. After the reformation many Protestants went on rampages destroying religious art, statues all over Europe. Beatiful expressions of faith were lost. Catholicism spans many cultures and 2000 years of history. I remember the first time I read the Didache (an instructional manual for Christians dating to the late first century). It was describing how they celebrated their worship. It was very similar to the modern Mass today.
Saludos, cubalibre

leonie Mar 18, '07 2:52 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AlegreFe (Post 2010780)
Why are you in this "ecumenical" Homeschool group instead of a strictly CATHOLIC Homeschool group? I don't see anything wrong with that but if you feel uncomfortable there then why be there?

If I were in that group with my daughter I guess I would be kind of glad :p that some moms there are uncomfortable with having Catholics there. hehehe:D

I guess since you're already there you can just "preach" your faith by being a "silent" witness by showing love to everyone there. Saint Francis said to only use words when necessary. ;)

Hi Sandy, I do have a Catholic homeschool group as well. But, my Catholic group doesn't have many children in my older children's age group. So, we are doing this one as well. My Catholic group is heavy on elementary age kids.

I am happy though, because I've discovered that my kids had some prejudices about Protestants--isn't that ironic? Since we hang out with Catholics so much, they hadn't spent much time with Protestants.

Plus, the moms in this group are so warm and loving. It's been a real blessing. My Catholic friends are also warm and loving, but more reserved. I think it is a cultural thing.

Another benefit is that it is making me learn more about how Catholics are perceived by devout Protestants. And, I'm learning how to explain my faith. :)

Kitty Chan Mar 18, '07 6:33 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by patrick457 (Post 2010768)
At least we could have necklaces of the Empty Tomb with Pop-up Figures of the Resurrected Jesus inside them.

Though, if that happens, will Satanists wear an upside-down Empty Tomb?

:clapping:

Kitty Chan Mar 18, '07 6:50 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
[Quote:]
Originally Posted by Kitty Chan
....something else, what if the govt outlawed religion and took away all the crosses crucifixes and burned the churches.
Would it crumble our faith if we didnt have "stuff" to worship with?
Perhaps why God Word is to be on our hearts so we dont become obsessed with the stuff. [/quote]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlegreFe (Post 2010837)
This makes me laugh, sorry but it does. Obsessed?!! Ha! Us having Jesus portrayed in our homes is NOT an obsession. And we don't use those images to WORSHIP God. We Worship God during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. We don't NEED those images to Worship. We have Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist. He is present right there at the Altar during the Mass.

You most likely do NOT know what Catholics mean when we say we Worship God. Catholics Worship God the way the Saints and Angels Worship God in Heaven. In fact, when Catholics are at Mass, we are actually in Heaven with all the Angels and the Saints.

As far as your statement if our images were taken away if that would "crumble our faith," that in no way would ever happen. We don't have our faith because of those images. We have our Faith because of the Grace of Jesus Christ who died on the Cross to Save us. Sure we have these images but they are only reminders. We have Jesus in our Hearts already but it doesn't hurt to have His images on our walls and even in our wallets and in our cars. Obsession?! :mad: not lauging anymore. Sorry but that was offensive. And that "stuff" is not just stuff the way you say it is. Those images of Christ and those crucifixes in my home are very important to me and my family. They are not the be all and end all of my faith but they are there for my family to remember and also to enjoy, just as we have family pictures on our walls. Jesus Christ, Mary and Joseph are all part of my family too along with different saints as I also have statues of different saints, St. Joseph, St. Therese, Infant of Prague, Our Lady of Fatima, Our Lady of Lourdes, Our Lady of Grace,... etc.

I'm sure you have little nick nack figurines in your house and pictures of different things in your home, family portraits on your wall, perhaps some oil paintings? Do you have a collection of nick nacks? Perhaps it's an obsession. :p


Okay, I think I've calmed down now. :p ;) Sorry got carried away there a wee bit. :)
Peace! :hug1:

You are pulling bits of conversation out of a longer conversation, you should perhaps reread the thread and it will make better sense. This is from a conversation discussion crufixes crosses and basically symbols of faith. We also discussed the pentagram.

Please note I said would it crumble OUR faith. This was not a attack on catholics but a challenge to all christians. If our safe little crosses and bibles and churches were not there. Would we crumble? How much do the symbols represent what we need? It was a challenging question not a attacking one. Im sorry if you took it that way.

If you wanna get to it protestant christians have a good amount of symbols just hit any christian bookstore. Thats what we were speaking about.

Hope its all clear to you now, I would not want any further misconceptions to bloom. :)

changing Mar 18, '07 7:41 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
I have a good friend who asked me about the crucifix during a conversation about what he did not understand (or rather, misunderstood) about Catholicism.

He explained that he thought we placed MORE emphasis on the death than on the resurrection. When I explained that we must not forget the importance of His death and its role in the resurrection, he suddenly understood. Said "wow - i never realized that was what it meant."

Kitty Chan Mar 18, '07 8:24 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
changing

zactly :)

Zirconia Mar 18, '07 8:39 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by changing (Post 2013228)
I have a good friend who asked me about the crucifix during a conversation about what he did not understand (or rather, misunderstood) about Catholicism.

He explained that he thought we placed MORE emphasis on the death than on the resurrection. When I explained that we must not forget the importance of His death and its role in the resurrection, he suddenly understood. Said "wow - i never realized that was what it meant."

Yes, it is impossible to have a resurrection if there is no death.

Zirconia

leonie Mar 19, '07 10:36 am

Re: Crucifixes
 
I wonder if it is a cultural difference as well. I understand that some Protestants don't have a theology of redemptive suffering. The Crucifix reminds us that we must pick up our cross and imitate Jesus.

Joe Kelley Mar 19, '07 1:17 pm

Re: Crucifixes
 
The crucifix reminds me that if I get through Good Friday, God will get me through Easter.

awantz Mar 21, '07 10:30 am

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lak611 (Post 2010147)
There are also Risen Christ crucifixes. For my father's funeral, the crucifix in his casket depicted a Risen Christ.

I have never seen one. Do you know where I could get ahold of one?

awantz Mar 21, '07 10:35 am

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AlegreFe (Post 2010812)
Well as far as remembering Christ's resurrection, my mom has Crucifixes all over her house but she also has a cross with Jesus Christ Risen, only one. You can click on the pic to see it on their website. She doesn't have this exact one but it's what I found online. :)



I don't know... I think the concept is kind of strange. If I want to portray Jesus Christ risen, I wouldn't have Him on the cross, :hmmm: but that's just me. I have pictures of Jesus all over. I have the Divine Mercy image, Sacred Heart image and this famous one;

I also have "Ecce Homo" but that was before He was Crucified.
Wow, that's beautiful. Both the image and His Love for us!

I agree. I wouldn't have Christ on the cross either if I want to portray Jesus as risen. I have that second picture. It has been in my family for years.

AlegreFe Mar 21, '07 10:36 am

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by awantz (Post 2021764)
I have never seen one. Do you know where I could get ahold of one?

Did you totally miss my post? :confused:
Quote:

Originally Posted by AlegreFe (Post 2010812)
You can click on the pic to see it on their website. http://www.catholicfamilygifts.com/P...ifix/10281.jpg


JKirkLVNV Mar 21, '07 10:36 am

Re: Crucifixes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by on fire (Post 2001836)
Yes it does matter..Christs Church said it happened on a cross.End of discusion.Because we were witnesses when it happened and have taught since that time it is a done deal.It AMAZES me when someone tries to interpret the Bible today to say what they think a word or phrase means,when HIS Church recieved the teachings directly from Jesus and his Apostles.The first book of the Bible wasnt written for almost 30 years after His death,but the Apostles were preaching and TEACHING shortly after his Resurection.

No, actually, some Catholic scholars believe that the upright part of the Cross probably was a permanent installation in an execution area and that possibly the Lord only carried the crossbeam (which would have still been far to heavy for Him in His weakened state). Even if that WAS the case, He would have still been crucified on a cross, once the horizontal piece was affixed. Either way, the Church is correct, of course.

AlegreFe Mar 21, '07 10:38 am

Re: Crucifixes
 
:D Oh, awantz I see you just saw my post. LOL We posted almost at the same time.


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