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-   -   Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael? (http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=206928)

Catholic Dude Dec 20, '07 6:05 pm

Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
I have come across a few references in here that Muslims believe Abraham did NOT go to sacrifice Isaac, but rather Ishmael.

Is this true?


If it is then we have a clear problem before us because the historical/Scriptural testimony of BOTH Jews and Christians is that it was Isaac.

De Maria Dec 20, '07 6:30 pm

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Catholic Dude (Post 3106637)
I have come across a few references in here that Muslims believe Abraham did NOT go to sacrifice Isaac, but rather Ishmael.

Is this true?


If it is then we have a clear problem before us because the historical/Scriptural testimony of BOTH Jews and Christians is that it was Isaac.


The Bible is clear that it was Isaac.
Genesis 22 1 After these things, God tempted Abraham, and said to him: Abraham, Abraham. And he answered: Here I am. 2 He said to him: Take thy only begotten son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and go into the land of vision: and there thou shalt offer him for an holocaust upon one of the mountains which I will show thee....

Sincerely,

De Maria

swariffin Dec 20, '07 7:04 pm

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
And the Quran says it was Ishmael. Well, the Arabian agree that Ishmael is the Father of the Arabian. So, they don't want to associate Hagar which is Ishmael mother, was a woman servant of Abraham. Logically makes sense for them saying so. Who wants to admit that his/her ancestor was a servant anyway? But, it does twisted the proof from the earlier manuscript which came thousands of years prior to the Quran (the book of Genesis, I mean).

ralphinal Dec 20, '07 7:58 pm

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Islam: Ishmael

Everyone Else: Isaac

Here is a major issue. To me, it may be bigger than any other. If Isaac was not a part of the Covenant, then Isreal holds no special place to God. Why did God save them from Egypt? Why would God send them a Messiah? Isaac was special to Abraham, that much is clear in the Bible. God also promised that Isaac was the one through whom His promise to Abraham would be fulfilled. Yes, Ishmael was a party to it, but not the main part.

One of the reasons that Muslims claim this, other then the Koran, is that a couple of Jewish converts to Islam swore to the Muslim leaders that it was a well known forgery and alteration in Genesis. Come on. I am quite sure there was no coersion in that confession.

Catholic Dude Dec 20, '07 10:33 pm

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ralphinal (Post 3107088)
Islam: Ishmael

Everyone Else: Isaac

Here is a major issue. To me, it may be bigger than any other. If Isaac was not a part of the Covenant, then Israel holds no special place to God. Why did God save them from Egypt? Why would God send them a Messiah? Isaac was special to Abraham, that much is clear in the Bible. God also promised that Isaac was the one through whom His promise to Abraham would be fulfilled. Yes, Ishmael was a party to it, but not the main part.

One of the reasons that Muslims claim this, other then the Koran, is that a couple of Jewish converts to Islam swore to the Muslim leaders that it was a well known forgery and alteration in Genesis. Come on. I am quite sure there was no coersion in that confession.

That is a VERY good point. This issue is decisive, one of our books is wrong and thus uninspired by definition.

I am so happy that you pointed out the ramifications here. The fact that the Old Testament is founded on the fact Israel is the chosen race from which the Messiah would come, Israel is the race from which the Prophets came and talked about, saved from Egypt, given the promise land, etc.
That cant just be explained away as a forgery or else the OT falls flat because Ishmael is hardly ever talked about outside of Genesis.

On top of all this I dont think Ishamel has a parallel historical record, did they get rescued from an equivalent to egypt, did they receive oracles from God and Prophets and Scriptures?

marlo Dec 21, '07 12:06 am

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
The name ishmael does not exist in the Quran, In fact, they point back to genesis to find out that Ismael is the name of the Son of Abraham. its quite confusing that the name isaac is found in the Quran but not Ishmael, it seems that Mohammad revelation is incomplete here


Quote:

Originally Posted by Catholic Dude (Post 3107590)
That is a VERY good point. This issue is decisive, one of our books is wrong and thus uninspired by definition.

I am so happy that you pointed out the ramifications here. The fact that the Old Testament is founded on the fact Israel is the chosen race from which the Messiah would come, Israel is the race from which the Prophets came and talked about, saved from Egypt, given the promise land, etc.
That cant just be explained away as a forgery or else the OT falls flat because Ishmael is hardly ever talked about outside of Genesis.

On top of all this I dont think Ishamel has a parallel historical record, did they get rescued from an equivalent to egypt, did they receive oracles from God and Prophets and Scriptures?


Socrates4Jesus Dec 21, '07 5:34 am

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Catholic Dude (Post 3106637)
I have come across a few references in here that Muslims believe Abraham did NOT go to sacrifice Isaac, but rather Ishmael.

Is this true?


If it is then we have a clear problem before us because the historical/Scriptural testimony of BOTH Jews and Christians is that it was Isaac.

I've read an English translation of the Quran and found no reference to Abraham (pbuh) being asked by Allah to sacrifice Ishmael (pbuh). The Old Testament does a good job of showing how unjust Abraham's treatment of Ishmael and his mother was, and how this created animosity between the Jewish people and the descendants of the Arabs.

paarsurrey Dec 21, '07 7:58 am

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by marlo (Post 3107688)
The name ishmael does not exist in the Quran,

Hi

Ishmael or Ismael is mentioned in Quran in about 12 places, I just give one for you:

[19:55] And relate the story of Ishmael as mentioned in the Book. He was indeed true to his promises. And he was a Messenger, a Prophet.
[19:56] He used to enjoin Prayer and alms-giving on his people, and he was well pleasing to his Lord.
http://www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?ch=19&verse=50

I think according to Bible the first-born was to be sacrificed ( We Muslims don't believe that human sacrifice was ever permitted by GodAllahYHWH in any religion, those who believe that they believe in superstition only.), and the first-born was Ishmael:
Genesis 16:15-16
15 So Hagar bore Abram a son, and Abram gave the name Ishmael to the son she had borne. 16 Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore him Ishmael.

I think it is easy to understand that the first-born is who is born first in time and that was Ishmael, for sure.

I don't mind if you differ with me, that is the free will.

Thanks

hopelessrom_grl Dec 21, '07 8:08 am

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by swariffin (Post 3106886)
And the Quran says it was Ishmael. Well, the Arabian agree that Ishmael is the Father of the Arabian. So, they don't want to associate Hagar which is Ishmael mother, was a woman servant of Abraham. Logically makes sense for them saying so. Who wants to admit that his/her ancestor was a servant anyway? But, it does twisted the proof from the earlier manuscript which came thousands of years prior to the Quran (the book of Genesis, I mean).

not really....the Quran didn't actually name the child.but Muslims guess it as Ishmeal

inJESUS Dec 21, '07 10:55 am

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
The Quran does not even mention the name of the son to be sacrificed.The Quran is incomplete in many details found only in the Bible.There is only one reference in all the Quran that relates this incident and it begins with Abraham making this request:


"O my Lord, grant me a righteous (son)!" So We gave him the good news of a boy ready to suffer and forbear. Then when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, he said, "O my son, I see in a vision that I offer thee in sacrifice. Now see what is thy view!" (The son) said, "O my father, do as thou art commanded. Thou will find me if Allah so wills one practicing patience and constancy!" So when they had both submitted their wills (to Allah) and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (for sacrifice), We called out to him, "O Abraham, thou hast already fulfilled the vision!" Thus indeed do we reward those who do right. For this was obviously a trial -- and We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice. -- Surat-us Saffat (37):99-107

the passage indicates that this was the boy whose birth was foretold as "good news." If one searches the whole Quran, he will find nothing mentioned about the birth of Ishmael or about the identity of his mother or his sons. Yet we read this about Isaac and his mother Sarah:

They said, "Fear not," and they gave him glad tidings of a son endowed with knowledge. But his wife came forward (laughing) aloud! She smote her forehead and said, "A barren old woman! " They said, "Even so has thy Lord spoken: and He is full of wisdom and knowledge."

Then we read a summary of Abraham and Isaac which comes right after the Quranic passage dealing with the sacfifice:


Peace and salutation to Abraham! Thus indeed do we reward those who do right. For he was one of Our believing Servants. And We gave him the good news of Isaac - a prophet - one of the righteous. We blessed him and Isaac. -- Surat-us Saffat (37):109-113


Notice the sentences "and they gave him glad tidings of a son" and "We gave him the good news of Isaac." No such wording can be found for the birth of Ishmael in the Quran.

The belief that it was Ismael stems from tradition even though it is not unanimous about it.The early Muslim commentators who believe that it was Ishmael include al-Zamkhshari, al-Baidhawi, al-Tabari and Ibn al-Athir. This tradition was often used: "Umar b. Abd-Al-Aizi asked a Jew converted to Islam about the difference of opinion and he answered: "The 'dhabhi' is Ismail; the Jews know this also, but they are jealous of you, they say it was Ishak." (Shorter Encyclopaedia of Islam, p.175) .

How could they be jealous if this was written long time before Islam, in Jewish AND Christian scriptures is beyond me.

On the other hand, Al-Tha`labi expressly emphasises the Ashab (companions) and Tabi`un (successors of the companions), from `Umar Al-Khattab to Ka`b Al-Ahbar, believe that the person sacrificed was Isaac.

hamba2han Dec 21, '07 11:31 am

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
The covenant was first made with Abraham and Ishmael;

Genesis 17:10 "This [is] my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised."

Genesis 17:13 "He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant."

It was really Ishmael and not Isaac who was going to be sacrificed and the Jewish scribes because of vanity, switched the names;

Genesis 16:16 "and Abram [is] a son of eighty and six years in Hagar's bearing Ishmael to Abram."

Who's son? Abraham's "son". Now as far as the sacrifice is concerned, Genesis 17:24 "Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin."

That makes Abraham's son Ishmael 13, how old is Isaac at this time? Genesis 21:5 "Abraham was a hundred years old when his son Isaac was born to him."

That means during the circumcision/sacrifice, Abraham's only "begotten" son is Ishmael and not Isaac as the Bible says.

KJV Hebrews 11:17 "By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,"

Therefore we see that Isaac was not the only son, as a matter of fact, Isaac was not even born yet and Abraham's Only begotten son was Ishmael when the covenant was firsr made.

ralphinal Dec 21, '07 11:38 am

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Please read on, dear friends.

Quote:

15And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be.

16And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.

17Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?

18And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!

19And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

Oh no, Isaac was to be the one through which the convenant was carried.

Quote:

20And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

21But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.

22And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.
Again, Ishmael would be the father of a Nation, but Isaac and his line would be the convenant.

If you stop too soon, you miss it.

hamba2han Dec 21, '07 11:58 am

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
This is the relevant verse from the Qur'an:

Then, when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, he said: "O my son! I see in vision that I offer thee in sacrifice: Now see what is thy view!" (The son) said: "O my father! Do as thou art commanded: thou will find me, if Allah so wills one practising Patience and Constancy!" .. Al-Qur'an, 037.102

And so, we see that the son who's life was to be sacrificed was old enough to work and also to speak words of support and reassurance to his father who was commanded by God to kill him.

If we are to accept the relevant verses from the Bible as was pointed out in my previous post, does this indicate that the one who was to be sacrificed to be still an infant OR a 13 year old boy?

inJESUS Dec 21, '07 12:11 pm

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hamba2han (Post 3109292)
the Jewish scribes because of vanity, switched the names;

when? and which Jews? before Jesus came? because Jesus nowhere says what you say but confirms God's words. So when was it?

By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was ready to offer up his only son, of whom it was said, "Through Isaac shall your descendants be named". Hebrews 11.17-18.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? James 2.21

there is a double testimony in the Bible, both from the Jewish and Christian Scriptures that the son to be sacrificed was Isaac, when there is no testimony in the Quran that it was Ishmael.

the companions of muhammad who believed it was Isaac did not have your conspiracy theory in mind.

If Allah is the author of the Quran who likes to correct the "corruptness" of Jews and Christians, surely he must have known that it was taught in the Jewish and Christian Scriptures that it was Isaac. Surely he would have corrected the error with a statement in the Quran that it was Ishmael yet the vagueness in the Quran regarding the identity of the son is inexplicable.

furthermore, the Quran has no reference to Hajar whatsoever, let alone by name!!. it speaks plainly of Isaac's mother as the wife of Abraham, the only wife of Abraham to whom there is any reference. Why?
no one reading the Quran without reference to any other work could possibly guess that there was another woman in Abraham's life.

And We gave (Abraham) Isaac and Jacob, and ordained among his progeny Prophethood and Scripture, and we granted him his reward in this life: and he was in the Hereafter (of the company) of the Righteous. Surah 29.27

is this said as well about Ishmael? the Quran ITSELF stresses Isaac by calling him the child of promise, by mentioning his mother, and by placing the Prophethood and the Scripture, into his line, when Ishmael receives none of this in the Quran.The son to be sacrificed is not named, yet Isaac is promptly named twice in the immediately succeeding verses.

inJESUS Dec 21, '07 12:20 pm

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
It was SARAH, not God, who asked Abraham to sleep with Hajar her maid. So it is not about age but about the fact that Sarah is his wife and he slept with Hajar UPON SARAH REQUEST, NOT GOD.

Valke2 Dec 21, '07 12:29 pm

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hamba2han (Post 3109430)
This is the relevant verse from the Qur'an:

Then, when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, he said: "O my son! I see in vision that I offer thee in sacrifice: Now see what is thy view!" (The son) said: "O my father! Do as thou art commanded: thou will find me, if Allah so wills one practising Patience and Constancy!" .. Al-Qur'an, 037.102

And so, we see that the son who's life was to be sacrificed was old enough to work and also to speak words of support and reassurance to his father who was commanded by God to kill him.

If we are to accept the relevant verses from the Bible as was pointed out in my previous post, does this indicate that the one who was to be sacrificed to be still an infant OR a 13 year old boy?

Isaac is not an infant when the binding occurs. He is at least grown enough to carry wood up the mountain. Jews generally believe Isaac was in his 30s when this happened.

iamrefreshed Dec 21, '07 12:31 pm

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hamba2han (Post 3109292)
It was really Ishmael and not Isaac who was going to be sacrificed and the Jewish scribes because of vanity, switched the names;

.

I don't even know what to write!:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Catholic Dude Dec 21, '07 12:32 pm

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by inJESUS (Post 3109511)
when? and which Jews? before Jesus came? because Jesus nowhere says what you say but confirms God's words. So when was it?

By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was ready to offer up his only son, of whom it was said, "Through Isaac shall your descendants be named". Hebrews 11.17-18.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? James 2.21

there is a double testimony in the Bible, both from the Jewish and Christian Scriptures that the son to be sacrificed was Isaac, when there is no testimony in the Quran that it was Ishmael.

the companions of muhammad who believed it was Isaac did not have your conspiracy theory in mind.

If Allah is the author of the Quran who likes to correct the "corruptness" of Jews and Christians, surely he must have known that it was taught in the Jewish and Christian Scriptures that it was Isaac. Surely he would have corrected the error with a statement in the Quran that it was Ishmael yet the vagueness in the Quran regarding the identity of the son is inexplicable.

furthermore, the Quran has no reference to Hajar whatsoever, let alone by name!!. it speaks plainly of Isaac's mother as the wife of Abraham, the only wife of Abraham to whom there is any reference. Why?
no one reading the Quran without reference to any other work could possibly guess that there was another woman in Abraham's life.

And We gave (Abraham) Isaac and Jacob, and ordained among his progeny Prophethood and Scripture, and we granted him his reward in this life: and he was in the Hereafter (of the company) of the Righteous. Surah 29.27

is this said as well about Ishmael? the Quran ITSELF stresses Isaac by calling him the child of promise, by mentioning his mother, and by placing the Prophethood and the Scripture, into his line, when Ishmael receives none of this in the Quran.The son to be sacrificed is not named, yet Isaac is promptly named twice in the immediately succeeding verses.

Thank you and others for clearing this up, from what you have pointed out the Quaran does not say it was Ishmael at all.

Wow, so his birth and mother are not even mentioned yet they put so much emphasis on his life? Clearly the Scritptures, Prophets and Messiah come through the Jews.


hamba2han how can you defend such a view when at most it is speculation?

Valke2 Dec 21, '07 12:37 pm

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
^ Appraisals for Isaac: Qur'an 6:84, Qur'an 12:6, Qur'an 19:50, Qur'an 21:72-73, Qur'an 37:113, Qur'an 38:45-47 - Isaac prophecy: Qur'an 2:133, Qur'an 2:136, Qur'an 2:140, Qur'an 3:84, Qur'an 4:163, Qur'an 6:84, Qur'an 12:6, Qur'an 19:49, Qur'an 21:73, Qur'an 37:112

inJESUS Dec 21, '07 12:42 pm

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by iamrefreshed (Post 3109610)
I don't even know what to write!:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

corruption mantra..unbelievable isnt it?

in my oponion it was some Muslims' vanity that lead them to teach this error when their honest brothers had no problem saying correctly that it was Isaac without accusing the world of conspiracy theories.

inJESUS Dec 21, '07 1:02 pm

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 55, Number 583)
Narrated Ibn Abbas:

The first lady to use a girdle was the mother of Ishmael. She used a girdle so that she might hide her tracks from Sarah. Abraham brought her and her son Ishmael while she was suckling him, to a place near the Ka'ba under a tree on the spot of Zam-zam, at the highest place in the mosque. During those days there was nobody in Mecca, nor was there any water. So he made them sit over there and placed near them a leather bag containing some dates, and a small water-skin containing some water, and set out homeward. Ishmael's mother followed him saying, "O Abraham! Where are you going, leaving us in this valley where there is no person whose company we may enjoy, nor is there anything (to enjoy)?" She repeated that to him many times, but he did not look back at her. Then she asked him, "Has Allah ordered you to do so?" He said, "Yes." She said, "Then He will not neglect us,"...The child (i.e. Ishmael) grew up and learnt Arabic from them and (his virtues) caused them to love and admire him as he grew up, and when he reached the age of puberty they made him marry a woman from amongst them. After Ishmael's mother had died, Abraham came after Ishmael's marriage in order to see his family that he had left before, but he did not find Ishmael there. When he asked Ishmael's wife about him, she replied, "He has gone in search of our livelihood.' ...




so Allah ordered Abraham to leave Hajar and his suckling son in order to go back to Sarah..why if he is to sacrifice Ishmael?and when did Ishmael return to be sacrificied if he grew up where he settled and got married before seeing his father?

hamba2han Dec 21, '07 1:09 pm

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
The Bible records that Ishmael the Eldest Son was born when Abraham was 86 years old. Fourteen years later Isaac was born. (Gen. 16:16 and 21:5).

The Bible repeatedly records that the Command from God to prophet Abraham (pbuh) was to sacrifice "thy only son". This particular phrase "thy only son" could only be used when Abraham had ONLY ONE SON.

And for anyone saying that Ishmael (pbuh) was not a legitimate son, note that the Bible says that Ishmael was indeed a legitimate son even after Abraham died;

Genesis 16:3 "And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife."

Genesis 25:9 "Then his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him (Abraham) in *the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, facing Mamre,"

Genesis 25:12 "Now these are the records of the generations of *Ishmael, Abraham's son, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah's maid, bore to Abraham;"

Strange as it may seem, Muslims have a lot more faith in the truth of the Bible, corrupted as it may be, than most Christians and Jews.

ralphinal Dec 21, '07 1:12 pm

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Genesis features a bit of a time skip. The sacrifice occured after Ishmael and his mother were sent away, but befor Isaac was married. His age is not told, but he was old enough to carry the wood. God refers to Isaac as Abraham's only son (Genesis 22:16). This could mean his only LEGITIMATE son, or, in my opinion, his son that had been promised by God, that was born by God's devine providence

inJESUS Dec 21, '07 1:16 pm

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
[quote]
Quote:

Originally Posted by ralphinal (Post 3109820)
This could mean his only LEGITIMATE son,

no

Quote:

or, in my opinion, his son that had been promised by God, that was born by God's devine providence
indeed, not Sarah's providence.

hamba2han Dec 21, '07 1:51 pm

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by inJESUS (Post 3109771)
Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 55, Number 583)
Narrated Ibn Abbas:

The first lady to use a girdle was the mother of Ishmael. She used a girdle so that she might hide her tracks from Sarah. Abraham brought her and her son Ishmael while she was suckling him, to a place near the Ka'ba under a tree on the spot of Zam-zam, at the highest place in the mosque. During those days there was nobody in Mecca, nor was there any water. So he made them sit over there and placed near them a leather bag containing some dates, and a small water-skin containing some water, and set out homeward. Ishmael's mother followed him saying, "O Abraham! Where are you going, leaving us in this valley where there is no person whose company we may enjoy, nor is there anything (to enjoy)?" She repeated that to him many times, but he did not look back at her. Then she asked him, "Has Allah ordered you to do so?" He said, "Yes." She said, "Then He will not neglect us,"...The child (i.e. Ishmael) grew up and learnt Arabic from them and (his virtues) caused them to love and admire him as he grew up, and when he reached the age of puberty they made him marry a woman from amongst them. After Ishmael's mother had died, Abraham came after Ishmael's marriage in order to see his family that he had left before, but he did not find Ishmael there. When he asked Ishmael's wife about him, she replied, "He has gone in search of our livelihood.' ...




so Allah ordered Abraham to leave Hajar and his suckling son in order to go back to Sarah..why if he is to sacrifice Ishmael?and when did Ishmael return to be sacrificied if he grew up where he settled and got married before seeing his father?

How does the following passage from the Bible reconcile with the above hadith?

Genesis 21:8-10
And the child grew, and was weaned: and Abraham made a great feast the same day that Isaac was weaned.
And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking.
Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.


Since Isaac was about two years old when he was weaned, Ishmael would have been sixteen years old at the time.

The above hadith however describes the profile of a suckling infant, not of a teenager and therefore, the hadith clearly contradicts this passage from the Bible which says that Ishmael was much older at the time he and his mother were exiled to the wilderness of Paran.

Since according to the hadith, Ishmael (pbuh) and his mother Hagar left Sarah long before Isaac was born, it follows that the command to sacrifice his "only begotten" son could only have come to Abraham (pbuh) before Isaac (pbuh) was born.

ralphinal Dec 21, '07 3:44 pm

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Hamba,
The expulsion of Ismael comes before the sacrifice. The coming of Isaac was fortold to Abraham when he was instructed to circumcise his clan. Yes, the age gap is correct but your timeline is wrong. Isaac was the child that God told Abraham he would ahve through Sarah, it is Isaac that the covenant is fulfilled. Once Abraham abandoned Ishmael and his mother, Isaac was his only son. Further, it was through Sarah's will that Ishmael was concieved, while God's will had Sarah become pregnant with Isaac.

In my opinion, it is revisionist history seeking a stronger link to Abraham. Yes, Ishmael is the father of the Arabic peoples, but he was not the one that God fulfilled his promise to Abraham. No one wants to be the illegitimate son of the king and therefore not heir. By altering God's word, Islam creates for its followers a false inheritance. Not to sound harsh, but no Christian or Jew will accept a hadith above the Bible. It is simply not possible.

exoflare Dec 21, '07 4:26 pm

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by swariffin (Post 3106886)
And the Quran says it was Ishmael. Well, the Arabian agree that Ishmael is the Father of the Arabian. So, they don't want to associate Hagar which is Ishmael mother, was a woman servant of Abraham. Logically makes sense for them saying so. Who wants to admit that his/her ancestor was a servant anyway? But, it does twisted the proof from the earlier manuscript which came thousands of years prior to the Quran (the book of Genesis, I mean).

Actually the Quran doesn't even say Ishmael either.. all it says is that Abraham was told to sacrifice his son, but it never mentions the son's name. That this son was Ishmael rather than Isaac developed purely out of Muslim oral tradition.

EDIT: sorry, looks like this was cleared up already. :o

MugenOne Dec 21, '07 5:52 pm

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Another switching conspiracy. Jesus didn't die on the cross. He got switched at the last minute and fooled the rest of us to eternity. Man, I want to switch to the dark side too. Not!

malek Dec 21, '07 7:29 pm

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
hi,
i was searching for another subject in this forum, and i saw the title and was interesting what is said so far, but just to clarify the Koran makes it clear that the sacrifice story took place before the birth of Isaac. Now whether u believe it was Isacc or Ishmael is up to you, but in Islam its clear that it was Ishmael, eventhough his name was not mentioned in this part, u just have to read the verses before and after to figure it out.

Koran surah 37 verses 100-113
100 "My Lord! Grant me (offspring) from the righteous."
101 So We gave him the glad tidings of a forbearing boy.
102 And, when he (his son) was old enough to walk with him, he said: "O my son! I have seen in a dream that I am slaughtering you (offer you in sacrifice to Allah), so look what you think!" He said: "O my father! Do that which you are commanded, Insha Allah (if Allah will), you shall find me of As-Sabirin (the patient ones)"
103 Then, when they had both submitted themselves (to the Will of Allah), and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (or on the side of his forehead for slaughtering);
104 And We called out to him: "O Abraham!
105 You have fulfilled the dream (vision)!" Verily! Thus do We reward the Muhsinoon (good-doers)
106 Verily, that indeed was a manifest trial
107 And We ransomed him with a great sacrifice (i.e. a ram);
108 And We left for him (a goodly remembrance) among generations (to come) in later times.
109 Salamun (peace) be upon Ibrahim (Abraham)!"
110 Thus indeed do We reward the Muhsinoon (good-doers)
111 Verily, he was one of Our believing slaves.
112 And We gave him the glad tidings of Ishaque (Isaac) a Prophet from the righteous.
113 We blessed him and Ishaque (Isaac), and of their progeny are (some) that do right, and some that plainly wrong themselves.

ralphinal Dec 21, '07 7:32 pm

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by malek (Post 3111122)
hi,
i was searching for another subject in this forum, and i saw the title and was interesting what is said so far, but just to clarify the Koran makes it clear that the sacrifice story took place before the birth of Isaac. Now whether u believe it was Isacc or Ishmael is up to you, but in Islam its clear that it was Ishmael, eventhough his name was not mentioned in this part, u just have to read the verses before and after to figure it out.

Koran surah 37 verses 100-113
100 "My Lord! Grant me (offspring) from the righteous."
101 So We gave him the glad tidings of a forbearing boy.
102 And, when he (his son) was old enough to walk with him, he said: "O my son! I have seen in a dream that I am slaughtering you (offer you in sacrifice to Allah), so look what you think!" He said: "O my father! Do that which you are commanded, Insha Allah (if Allah will), you shall find me of As-Sabirin (the patient ones)"
103 Then, when they had both submitted themselves (to the Will of Allah), and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (or on the side of his forehead for slaughtering);
104 And We called out to him: "O Abraham!
105 You have fulfilled the dream (vision)!" Verily! Thus do We reward the Muhsinoon (good-doers)
106 Verily, that indeed was a manifest trial
107 And We ransomed him with a great sacrifice (i.e. a ram);
108 And We left for him (a goodly remembrance) among generations (to come) in later times.
109 Salamun (peace) be upon Ibrahim (Abraham)!"
110 Thus indeed do We reward the Muhsinoon (good-doers)
111 Verily, he was one of Our believing slaves.
112 And We gave him the glad tidings of Ishaque (Isaac) a Prophet from the righteous.
113 We blessed him and Ishaque (Isaac), and of their progeny are (some) that do right, and some that plainly wrong themselves.

I think that the issue is WHY would God contradict himself on this topic? In the Book of Genesis, it is Isaac, no questions asked. Ishmael is already "gone" so to speak. One of the two accounts is correct. Which one? If it is Islam, why was this changed thousands of years before the Koran was written?

malek Dec 21, '07 8:19 pm

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
The bible agrees that Ishmael was the eldest. Now think about it...If he had 2 boys and God asked him to sacrifice Isaac (the youngest) it wouldn't be a big test for prophet Ibrahim, because he will still have Ishmael left. But, the TRUTH is that God asked him to sacrifice Ishmael, his eldest and only son at the time, and this what makes it a real trial for prophet Ibrahim. So when he passed the trial, God rewarded him with the 2nd righteous son that is Isaac.

I believe that the Koran corrects the mistakes that r in the Bible. Mistakes that where intentional and unintentional by the people who wrote the books that comprise the Bible.

Jesusisgod Dec 21, '07 8:35 pm

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by malek (Post 3111301)
The bible agrees that Ishmael was the eldest. Now think about it...If he had 2 boys and God asked him to sacrifice Isaac (the youngest) it wouldn't be a big test for prophet Ibrahim, because he will still have Ishmael left. But, the TRUTH is that God asked him to sacrifice Ishmael, his eldest and only son at the time, and this what makes it a real trial for prophet Ibrahim. So when he passed the trial, God rewarded him with the 2nd righteous son that is Isaac.

I believe that the Koran corrects the mistakes that r in the Bible. Mistakes that where intentional and unintentional by the people who wrote the books that comprise the Bible.

Malek, and today there's a new book by George Bush. Its called Axisofterror. It says in the book that Abraham's son Ishmael was a paraplegic and accidentally castrated during his circumcision and therefore unfit to be sacrificed. The descendants of ishmael were in fact born through their butler.

Looks like the Axisofterror also corrected the erroneous Quran. Maybe next year there will be another final book and a last last prophet who has sex with a 3 year old girl instead of muhammad's 9 year old sex mate.

I really hope you're not offended. Cos what I'm saying is precisely what you silly muslims are doing.

My point is. Anybody can come up with a stupid book and claim another as false. Who is to know? It is up to the reader to determine who is speaking the truth. Not you, not me to judge who is true or false. But basic-basic common sense tells you that, between the two (Bible or quran), the one that comes first always has the right of refusal/rejection. Plus, going by the evidences of biblical scripture, miracles of its prophets and the comparatively superior character of its prophets. It is not hard to conclude that Islam is pure rubbish.

Good gracious, may someone save your foolishness.

inJESUS Dec 21, '07 11:57 pm

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hamba2han (Post 3109977)
How does the following passage from the Bible reconcile with the above hadith?

irrelevent. It is your tradition we are pointing at so you must explain to us on what you base your assumption that it was Ishmael when the Quran does not name him and the hadith says he did not meet Abraham until after he got married.

inJESUS Dec 22, '07 12:16 am

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
[quote]
Quote:

Originally Posted by malek (Post 3111122)
in Islam its clear that it was Ishmael, eventhough his name was not mentioned in this part,

that's not accurate since tradition is split up between Isaac and Ishmael so it is not Jews and Christians who corrupt but rather it is the vaguness of Quran and contradictions of hadith.

Quote:

u just have to read the verses before and after to figure it out.
حدهما: أنه إسحاق، ولم يثن الله تعالى على أحد بالحلم إلا على إسحاق وإبراهيم


here is one interpretation that it is Isaac BECAUSE the mentioning of good tidings in the end of the same passage refers only to Isaac in all the Quran

translation reads: it is Isaac and God praised no one's birth except Isaac and Ibrahim.

Quote:

107 And We ransomed him with a great sacrifice (i.e. a ram);
what is so great about a ram?

inJESUS Dec 22, '07 12:49 am

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Tabari:

"As for the above-mentioned proof from the Quran that it really was Isaac, it is God's word which informs us about the prayer of His friend Abraham when he left his people to migrate to Syria with Sarah. Abraham prayed, `I am going to my Lord who will guide me. My Lord! Grant me a righteous child.' This was before he knew Hagar, who was to be the mother of Ishmael. After mentioning this prayer, God goes on to describe the prayer and mentions that he foretold to Abraham that he would have a gentle son. God also mentions Abraham's vision of himself sacrificing that son when he was old enough to walk with him. The Book does not mention any tidings of a male child given to Abraham except in the instance where it refers to Isaac, in which God said, `And his wife, standing by laughed when we gave her tidings of Isaac, and after Isaac, Jacob', and `Then he became fearful of them'. They said. `Fear not!' and gave him tidings of a wise son. Then his wife approached, moaning, and smote her face, and cried, `A barren old woman'. Thus, wherever the Quran mentions God giving tidings of the birth of a son to Abraham, it refers to Sarah (and thus to Isaac) and the same must be true of God's words `So we gave him tidings of a gentle son', as it is true of all such references in the Quran."


al-Tabari states:

... That ram remained in custody with God until He let it go AS ISAAC'S RANSOM ... (The History of Al-Tabari: General Introduction and From the Creation to the Flood)

In Musnad Ahmad, Number 2658, we are told:

The messenger of God said that Gabriel took Abraham to Jamra al-Aqabah (the upper Jamrah, the pillar or place for stoning) and then Satan appeared to him. Then he stoned Satan with seven stones so he fainted him to faint. Then he came to the middle Jamrah, and Satan again appeared to him. He again stoned him with seven stones causing Satan to faint. He then came to the lower Jamrah, and Satan again appeared to him. Again he stoned Satan, causing him to faint once again. Now when Abraham wanted to slaughter his son Isaac, he said his father, "Father, tie me so I don’t get afraid and my blood splash all over you when you slaughter me." So he took him and he tied him up, and then he took the knife. And when he wanted to slay him a voice called from behind him, "O Abraham, the vision has been fulfilled."

al-Baidawi states:

As He perfected it formerly on thy fathers: by appointing them as messengers. Some say (that God perfected his blessing) on Abraham by taking him as a ‘friend’ (khalil) and by saving him from the fire (into which the unbelievers had cast him), and (he perfected it) on Isaac by delivering him from the sacrifice and by ransoming him with a great victim (for the sacrifice) ...


Ibn Kathir:
Q.37:102: WHEN HE REACHED THE AGE OF RUNNING WITH HIM. "Ishmael could not have been with him, for he was very little when he was with his mother in the Meccan mountains.(recorded in Sahih Bukhari as i quoted previously) How could he have reached the age of running with him?" According to this view, Abraham brought Hagar and Ishmael to Mecca and left them there, never to return. Their only experience together was therefore when Ishmael was too young to be at "the age of running with him." in fact he left him as a suckling baby according to sahih hadith


underlined words are mine.


As we can see, the Bible has no doubts about it. It is Muslims who are in doubt as to who the son was, as they are in doubt as to who was sacrificied later on the cross (the real GREAT sacrifice which is not a ram of course)..the Bible is in harmony, the Quran is silent so it would be ridiculous to accuse all other people of corruption when the fault lies in someone else's book and traditions.

hamba2han Dec 22, '07 3:00 am

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
There is a key element in this story of Abraham's (pbuh) obedience to God in sacrificing his only son which can easily answer the question of which son was to be sacrificed i.e. that of God's command for all male children to be circumcised.

Genesis 17:10 "This [is] my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised."

Genesis 17:13 "He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant."

And according to the Bible, how old was Abraham (pbuh) when he was circumcised?

Genesis 17:24 "Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin."

That makes Abraham's son Ishmael 13, how old is Isaac at this time? Genesis 21:5 "Abraham was a hundred years old when his son Isaac was born to him."

This means that during the circumcision/sacrifice, Abraham's only "begotten" son is Ishmael and not Isaac as the Bible says.

The covenant therefore was made with Abraham and Ishmael.

The real problem here is that Christians and Jews do not believe (or more specifically, do not want to believe) what is so clearly written in their own Bible.

And no matter how much they try to twist and turn the issue, they just cannot turn away from what the Bible is telling them about the precise moment in time when the covenant was made..

There is really no conflict between the Bible and the Qur'an and the only places where there exists variances between these two sciptures is when the Bible actually contradicts itself as can be seen in the story of Abraham, Ishmael and Isaac (peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all).

inJESUS Dec 22, '07 4:49 am

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
[quote]
Quote:

Originally Posted by hamba2han (Post 3111931)

The real problem here is that Christians and Jews do not believe (or more specifically, do not want to believe) what is so clearly written in their own Bible.

the real problem is that Christians and Jew know that the Bible says it was Isaac. It is none of our business if you decide what verses are ok and what are "corruption".

Since the Jews corrupted all this incident, then how can you quote anything written about this subject? so just stick tou your book and tradition and you will see it is not us who do not believe, it is some Muslims' pro-Arabism and vanity that made them reject what the earliest commentators and companions of Muhammad said.

inJESUS Dec 22, '07 5:26 am

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Now Sarai, Abram's wife, had borne him no children. But she had an Egyptian maidservant named Hagar; 2so she said to Abram, "The LORD has kept me from having children. Go, sleep with my maidservant; perhaps I can build a family through her." Abram agreed to what Sarai said.


So who told Abraham? Sarah, not God. WHY? because she thought that since she is barren, Abraham must sleep with someone else, and the child will be SARAH AND ABRAHAM'S CHILD.

So after Abram had been living in Canaan ten years, Sarai his wife took her Egyptian maidservant Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife. 4He slept with Hagar, and she conceived. When she knew she was pregnant, she began to despise her mistress. 5Then Sarai said to Abram, "You are responsible for the wrong I am suffering. I put my servant in your arms, and now that she knows she is pregnant, she despises me. May the LORD judge between you and me." 6"Your servant is in your hands," Abram said. "Do with her whatever you think best." Then Sarai mistreated Hagar; so she fled from her.

the hadith confirms that Abraham sent her away until Ishmael got married. The hadith even says it was ALLAH who asked Abraham to exile Hagar and Ishmael.

Even after the agreement between Sarai and Abram , Hagar is still considered her maidservant . The language is important. It is not Abram who takes Hagar into his tent, but Sarai gives Hagar to Abram. Sarai is in charge. After Abram slept with Hagar and conceived, not only Sarai but also Abram still talks about Hagar as Sarai's servant (v.6), not as his (new) wife. Furthermore, the narrator continues to call Sarai "her mistress".
The phrase "to be his wife" in verse 3 is merely a euphemism for sexual intercourse. That is clear from the phrase that immediately follows it as well as from the original request . The context makes it clear that Hagar remained the slave not of Abraham, but of Sarai.

All throughout Genesis we find Sarai addressed as Abraham's wife many times (11:29,31; 12:5,17,18,20; 13:1; 16:1,3; 17:15,19; 18:9,10; 20:2,7,11,12,14,18; 23:3,19) sometimes by God himself. Hagar is never called the wife of Abraham, whether by Abraham, or by Sarah, or by God and only once by the narrator in the above discussed verse 16:3.


So your only son means the only son promised by God to Sarah his wife , and not from the maidservant that SARAI asked Abraham to sleep with. Sleeping with a young maid does not necessitate a miracle by God for her to conceive..it is common sense...but for an old barren woman to conceive, then here is the PROMISE God is talkin about, and not asking Abraham to sleep with anyone to get a child..These are the teachings of Sarai, not God.The promise of God is fulfilled when sarah the old woman got pregnant...Abraham did not need to wait for Sarah all these years...he could have done it much before it and he wouldnt need a promise from God about children...but it is Sarah who insisted...and when God decided it is the right time, Sarah the old woman got pregnant and the promise (that Sarah couldnt wait for) was fulfilled.

SLEEPING WITH ANYONE TO GET A CHILD NECESSITATES NEITHER PROMISES NOR MIRACLES FROM GOD.
THAT is why Hagar was exiled, she was never called Abrahams wife and even the Quran does not mention her ONCE.

ralphinal Dec 22, '07 5:32 am

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
My earlier post seems to have been ignored. I'll do it again

Quote:

Please read on, dear friends.


Quote:
15And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be.

16And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.

17Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?

18And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!

19And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.


Oh no, Isaac was to be the one through which the convenant was carried.


Quote:
20And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

21But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.

22And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.

Again, Ishmael would be the father of a Nation, but Isaac and his line would be the convenant.

If you stop too soon, you miss it.
The covenant was between God and Abraham through ISAAC. That is what the Bible says. DO not stop reading too soon. It is like walking out of The Empire Strikes Back early and missing that Vadar is Luke's daddy

inJESUS Dec 22, '07 5:41 am

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ralphinal (Post 3112066)
My earlier post seems to have been ignored. I'll do it again



The covenant was between God and Abraham through ISAAC. That is what the Bible says. DO not stop reading too soon. It is like walking out of The Empire Strikes Back early and missing that Vadar is Luke's daddy

you dont understand the logic here. These are corrupt! yet he accuses us of not believing what the Bible says! seems the word of God depends on which passages Muslims quote.

hamba2han Dec 22, '07 5:59 am

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ralphinal (Post 3112066)
My earlier post seems to have been ignored.

No, it wasn't.

There is really no conflict between the Bible and the Qur'an and the only places where there exists variances between these two sciptures is when the Bible actually contradicts itself as can be seen in the story of Abraham, Ishmael and Isaac (peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all).

If Christians and Jews cannot see the verses where the Bible contradicts itself, then this only serves to further prove that what they choose to believe is merely based on blind faith.

Quote:

Originally Posted by inJESUS (Post 3112008)
the real problem is that Christians and Jew know that the Bible says it was Isaac. It is none of our business if you decide what verses are ok and what are "corruption".

If there are to be found conflicting verses in the Bible, who decides which verse is more "ok" than any of the other conflicting verses?

What exactly is it that makes the magisterium better Catholics than everyone else that it is they who get to decide on such vital matters?

Catholics need to place their faith on the real teachings of Jesus (pbuh) as found in the Bible, NOT on any conflicting opinions of the magisterium.

Valke2 Dec 22, '07 6:18 am

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hamba2han (Post 3111931)
There is a key element in this story of Abraham's (pbuh) obedience to God in sacrificing his only son which can easily answer the question of which son was to be sacrificed i.e. that of God's command for all male children to be circumcised.

Genesis 17:10 "This [is] my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised."

Genesis 17:13 "He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant."

And according to the Bible, how old was Abraham (pbuh) when he was circumcised?

Genesis 17:24 "Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin."

That makes Abraham's son Ishmael 13, how old is Isaac at this time? Genesis 21:5 "Abraham was a hundred years old when his son Isaac was born to him."

This means that during the circumcision/sacrifice, Abraham's only "begotten" son is Ishmael and not Isaac as the Bible says.

The covenant therefore was made with Abraham and Ishmael.

The real problem here is that Christians and Jews do not believe (or more specifically, do not want to believe) what is so clearly written in their own Bible.

And no matter how much they try to twist and turn the issue, they just cannot turn away from what the Bible is telling them about the precise moment in time when the covenant was made..

There is really no conflict between the Bible and the Qur'an and the only places where there exists variances between these two sciptures is when the Bible actually contradicts itself as can be seen in the story of Abraham, Ishmael and Isaac (peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all).

As far as Abraham knew, Ishmael was sent in the wilderness to die. So using the logic that it would only be a true sacrifice if Abraham had to sacrifice an only child (which I disagree with), then we can easily deduce from the Torah/Book of Genesis, that Abraham believed Isaac was his only son and that Ishmael was already dead. I could then argue that sacrificing Isaac would have been an even bigger test of faith as Abraham believed he had already lost one son that he loved, was about to lose the onlyother son he had, and being over 100, he wasn't likely to have any more children.

paarsurrey Dec 22, '07 7:19 am

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Valke2 (Post 3112143)
As far as Abraham knew, Ishmael was sent in the wilderness to die. So using the logic that it would only be a true sacrifice if Abraham had to sacrifice an only child (which I disagree with), then we can easily deduce from the Torah/Book of Genesis, that Abraham believed Isaac was his only son and that Ishmael was already dead. I could then argue that sacrificing Isaac would have been an even bigger test of faith as Abraham believed he had already lost one son that he loved, was about to lose the onlyother son he had, and being over 100, he wasn't likely to have any more children.

Hi

As I understand from Islam/Quran/Muhammad, human sacrifice was not allowed in any Revealed Religion. In the world in which Abraham was living there was a concept of human sacrifice. Abraham saw in a dream that he was sacrificing his son, he interpreted it correctly, and left his son Ishmael alongwith his mother Hagar in the wilderness as per guidance (this was done with a greater purpose to be fullfilled in distant future).

[37:104] And when they both submitted to the will of God, and Abraham had thrown him down on his forehead,
[37:105] We called to him, 'O Abraham,
[37:106] 'Thou hast, indeed, fulfilled the dream.' Thus, indeed, do We reward those who do good.
[37:107] That, surely, was a manifest trial.
[37:108] And We ransomed him with a mighty sacrifice.
[37:109] And We left for him a good name among the succeeding generations.
[37:110] Peace be upon Abraham!
[37:111] Thus do We reward those who do good.
[37:112] Surely, he was one of our believing servants.
http://www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?ch=37&verse=103

The dream was fullfilled twice before even Issac was born (as per Quran). For the first time when Ishmael was left in the wilderness and second time when he was of age and agreed for the sacrifice. This way GodAllahYHWH revealed on Abraham that human sacrifice was prohibited.

One may differ with me, I believe in free will

Thanks

ralphinal Dec 22, '07 7:43 am

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Sumary of the story per the Bible
1)Abram is called by God, promised that he will be the father of a multitude
2) Abram becomes Abraham, due to wives old age and baron state, she tells Abraham to "go into her servent" and make a child, named Ishael.
3) God orders Abraham to have his entire clan circumcised and explains to Abraham that Sarah will have the child promised ot him. That child will be Isaac.
4)Sarah, despite her age and baron state, conceives and give birth to Isaac. She orders Ishmael and his mother out of the camp.
5) Hagar and Ishmael are not forgotten by God. Ishmael becomes the Father of another Nation, but the Convenant remains with Isaac.
6) Abraham, unaware of what happens to Ishmael, is told to sacrifice Isaac, the son promised to him by God and concieved by God's intervention.

Where is the conflict? Where is the contradiction? The only contradiction is between Islam and the Judeo-Christian story.

hamba2han Dec 22, '07 7:57 am

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Valke2 (Post 3112143)
As far as Abraham knew, Ishmael was sent in the wilderness to die. So using the logic that it would only be a true sacrifice if Abraham had to sacrifice an only child (which I disagree with), then we can easily deduce from the Torah/Book of Genesis, that Abraham believed Isaac was his only son and that Ishmael was already dead. I could then argue that sacrificing Isaac would have been an even bigger test of faith as Abraham believed he had already lost one son that he loved, was about to lose the onlyother son he had, and being over 100, he wasn't likely to have any more children.

God would surely know whether or not Ishmael (pbuh) survived the journey and therefore what Prophet Abraham (pbuh) may have thought is not really a factor at all because the story of the sacrifice as written in the Bible is supposed to be the true account revealed by God Himself, isn't it?

Valke2 Dec 22, '07 9:04 am

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hamba2han (Post 3112373)
God would surely know whether or not Ishmael (pbuh) survived the journey and therefore what Prophet Abraham (pbuh) may have thought is not really a factor at all because the story of the sacrifice as written in the Bible is supposed to be the true account revealed by God Himself, isn't it?

It would be a factor in viewing it as a test of faith for Abraham. If Abraham believed Isaac was his only surviving son, then, as far as testing his faith, it is not relevant if he actually had another surviving son.

hamba2han Dec 22, '07 9:32 am

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ralphinal (Post 3112350)
Sumary of the story per the Bible
1)Abram is called by God, promised that he will be the father of a multitude
2) Abram becomes Abraham, due to wives old age and baron state, she tells Abraham to "go into her servent" and make a child, named Ishael.
3) God orders Abraham to have his entire clan circumcised and explains to Abraham that Sarah will have the child promised ot him. That child will be Isaac.
4)Sarah, despite her age and baron state, conceives and give birth to Isaac. She orders Ishmael and his mother out of the camp.
5) Hagar and Ishmael are not forgotten by God. Ishmael becomes the Father of another Nation, but the Convenant remains with Isaac.
6) Abraham, unaware of what happens to Ishmael, is told to sacrifice Isaac, the son promised to him by God and concieved by God's intervention.

Where is the conflict? Where is the contradiction? The only contradiction is between Islam and the Judeo-Christian story.

The covenant was made at the time the command to circumcise male children was given to Abraham (pbuh).. and the fact that Isaac was not even born yet means that the covenant was made to Abraham and Ishmael (peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all) as he was his only son at the time.

And to suggest that Abraham did not know that Ishmael was still alive at the time the command from God was given to sacrifice his only son means that God did not see fit to inform Abraham of this fact despite promising him to make his seed Ishmael into a nation.

Genesis 21
12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
13 And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed.
14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beer–sheba.


It is therefore totally beyond logic to think that Abraham did not know Ishmael (pbut) was still alive because he was being commanded by none other than God Himself.

ralphinal Dec 22, '07 10:43 am

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hamba2han (Post 3112610)
The covenant was made at the time the command to circumcise male children was given to Abraham (pbuh).. and the fact that Isaac was not even born yet means that the covenant was made to Abraham and Ishmael (peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all) as he was his only son at the time.

And to suggest that Abraham did not know that Ishmael was still alive at the time the command from God was given to sacrifice his only son means that God did not see fit to inform Abraham of this fact despite promising him to make his seed Ishmael into a nation.

Genesis 21
12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
13 And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed.
14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beer–sheba.


It is therefore totally beyond logic to think that Abraham did not know Ishmael (pbut) was still alive because he was being commanded by none other than God Himself.

That is correct, Hamba. God did promise to care for Ishmael before Anbraham abandoned him. It still does not change that there is no proof in the Bible that Ishmael was the sacrifice, not Isaac. On the contrary, the Bible is clear that it was Isaac. Nor does it change the fact that Isaac was the covenant child, per Genesis 17:19-21

The only resonable conclusion is that it is presented as Ishmael in Islam to be more pleasing to Arabic peoples who see themselves as decendents of Ishmael. It is problematic to change a matter of faith for popularity reasons

planten Dec 22, '07 11:06 am

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hamba2han (Post 3109430)
This is the relevant verse from the Qur'an:

Then, when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, he said: "O my son! I see in vision that I offer thee in sacrifice: Now see what is thy view!" (The son) said: "O my father! Do as thou art commanded: thou will find me, if Allah so wills one practising Patience and Constancy!" .. Al-Qur'an, 037.102

And so, we see that the son who's life was to be sacrificed was old enough to work and also to speak words of support and reassurance to his father who was commanded by God to kill him.

If we are to accept the relevant verses from the Bible as was pointed out in my previous post, does this indicate that the one who was to be sacrificed to be still an infant OR a 13 year old boy?

Dear me, you have given good answer. But may I guide you to help all friends here. The name of Ishmael is not mentioned in the Quran about the sacrificed son. There is a good reason for that. But, the matter can be understood only if we read the chapter 37 of Quran from verse 83 to verse 112 complete 30 verses.

That proves it was Ishmael who was sacrificed. In the bible, Abraham did not even tell his son Issac what he was going to do to him. He did not tell that he was going to sacrifice him on the alter. Issac kept on asking about the lamb. The father said that it will be provided. That is a very strange type of reply, partly true and partly lie.

Please all friends read verses 83 to 112 complete of the Quran. Then it will be easily understood that it was Ishmael who was sacrificed. Issac was not even born before the event of sacrifice. The news of the birth (promised birth) of Ishamel is in verse 37:101 and the news of the birth of Issac is in verse 37:112.

Issac cannot be sacrificed according to Quranic passage/ news. He was told to Abraham that he will be a prophet of God.(verse 112). A son who is told by Allah that he will live to be a prophet cannot be told to be killed.

But bible OT says that it was Issac who was sacrificed. That was in the bible before the Quran was revealed.

inJESUS Dec 22, '07 11:34 am

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hamba2han (Post 3112111)
?Catholics need to place their faith on the real teachings of Jesus (pbuh) as found in the Bible, NOT on any conflicting opinions of the magisterium.

which happens to be that it was Isaac...so we do believe Jesus, who was a Jew, and who never claimed the word of God is corrupt. Likewise, the companions of your prophets themselves had this same belief, something you obviously cannot digest.

inJESUS Dec 22, '07 11:38 am

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
[quote]
Quote:

Originally Posted by paarsurrey (Post 3112299)
[size="3"]

The dream was fullfilled twice before even Issac was born (as per Quran). For the first time when Ishmael was left in the wilderness and second time when he was of age and agreed for the sacrifice.

as per sahih hadith, the one of age was Isaac who was WITH Abraham when Ishmael and his mother have settled in a different place, learned Arabic and got married.

inJESUS Dec 22, '07 11:41 am

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hamba2han (Post 3112373)
God would surely know whether or not Ishmael (pbuh) survived the journey

why then ask Abraham to sacrifice a son that Allah himself asked him to exile him with his mother and who settled in a different country and started already his own family?

inJESUS Dec 22, '07 11:48 am

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ralphinal (Post 3112769)
The only resonable conclusion is that it is presented as Ishmael in Islam to be more pleasing to Arabic peoples who see themselves as decendents of Ishmael. It is problematic to change a matter of faith for popularity reasons

maybe Muslims prefer Pro-Arabs who re-write history to suit their belief over the earliest writings of the companions of Muhammad who believed in was Isaac.

inJESUS Dec 22, '07 11:56 am

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
[quote]
Quote:

Originally Posted by planten (Post 3112832)
Please all friends read verses 83 to 112 complete of the Quran. Then it will be easily understood that it was Ishmael who was sacrificed. Issac was not even born before the event of sacrifice. The news of the birth (promised birth) of Ishamel is in verse 37:101 and the news of the birth of Issac is in verse 37:112.

the earliest commentators did read these verses and came to the conclusion it was Isaac since the good news of birth were only mentioned about Isaac in Quran, never about Ishmael..the hadith agrees that Abraham exiled Ishmael by Allah's command...the one the Quran mentions was of an age of running while the hadith proves that at that age Ishmael had already settled in a different country, learned Arabic and got married..the one avilabe at the age of running was Isaac, not Ishmael .

Quote:

Issac cannot be sacrificed according to Quranic passage/ news. He was told to Abraham that he will be a prophet of God.(verse 112). A son who is told by Allah that he will live to be a prophet cannot be told to be killed.
isn't this a test of faith?

inJESUS Dec 22, '07 12:02 pm

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Here is the hadith again:

Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 55, Number 583)
Narrated Ibn Abbas:

The first lady to use a girdle was the mother of Ishmael. She used a girdle so that she might hide her tracks from Sarah. Abraham brought her and her son Ishmael while she was suckling him, to a place near the Ka'ba under a tree on the spot of Zam-zam, at the highest place in the mosque. During those days there was nobody in Mecca, nor was there any water. So he made them sit over there and placed near them a leather bag containing some dates, and a small water-skin containing some water, and set out homeward. Ishmael's mother followed him saying, "O Abraham! Where are you going, leaving us in this valley where there is no person whose company we may enjoy, nor is there anything (to enjoy)?" She repeated that to him many times, but he did not look back at her. Then she asked him, "Has Allah ordered you to do so?" He said, "Yes." She said, "Then He will not neglect us,"...The child (i.e. Ishmael) grew up and learnt Arabic from them and (his virtues) caused them to love and admire him as he grew up, and when he reached the age of puberty they made him marry a woman from amongst them. After Ishmael's mother had died, Abraham came after Ishmael's marriage in order to see his family that he had left before, but he did not find Ishmael there. When he asked Ishmael's wife about him, she replied, "He has gone in search of our livelihood.' ...




so Allah ordered Abraham to leave Hajar and his suckling son in order to go back to Sarah..why if he is to sacrifice Ishmael?and when did Ishmael return to be sacrificied if he grew up where he settled and got married before seeing his father?where was Ishmael at the "age of running" as per Quran? he was with his mother, not with Abraham who saw him after he got married.

inJESUS Dec 22, '07 12:34 pm

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
[quote]
Quote:

Originally Posted by planten (Post 3112832)
Issac was not even born before the event of sacrifice. The news of the birth (promised birth) of Ishamel is in verse 37:101 and the news of the birth of Issac is in verse 37:112.

Al-Tabari disagrees:

"Some say that God would not have ordered Isaac sacrificed because God foretold his birth before it happened and that of Jacob afterwards, but this claim does not necessarily prove their view correct. God only commanded Abraham to sacrifice Isaac when he was able to walk, and it is conceivable that Jacob could have been born to him before his father was commanded to sacrifice him."

"The account naming Isaac comes down to us through Abu Kurayb- Zayd b. al-Hubab- al-Hasan b. Dinar- 'Ali b. Zayd b. Jud'an- al-Hasan- al-Ahnaf b. Qays- al-'Abbas b. 'Abd al-Muttalib- THE PROPHET in a conversation in which he said, ‘Then we ransomed him with a tremendous victim.' And he also said, ‘He is Isaac.'"

As for the above-mentioned proof from the Quran that it really was Isaac, it is God's word which informs us about the prayer of His friend Abraham when he left his people to migrate to Syria with Sarah. Abraham prayed, 'I am going to my Lord who will guide me. My Lord! Grant me a righteous child.' This was before he knew Hagar, who was to be the mother of Ishmael. After mentioning this prayer, God goes on to describe the prayer and mentions that he foretold to Abraham that he would have a gentle son. God also mentions Abraham's vision of himself sacrificing that son when he was old enough to walk with him. The Book does not mention any tidings of a male child given to Abraham except in the instance where it refers to Isaac, in which God said, 'And his wife, standing by laughed when we gave her tidings of Isaac, and after Isaac, Jacob', and 'Then he became fearful of them'. They said. 'Fear not!' and gave him tidings of a wise son. Then his wife approached, moaning, and smote her face, and cried, 'A barren old woman'. Thus, wherever the Quran mentions God giving tidings of the birth of a son to Abraham, it refers to Sarah (and thus to Isaac) and the same must be true of God's words 'So we gave him tidings of a gentle son', as it is true of all such references in the Quran."

Quote:

Issac cannot be sacrificed according to Quranic passage/ news.
according to Al-tabari and many others, Ishmael cannot be sacrificied since Hagar was not even in the picture yet.

Look at what Ibn Kathir says!

Some knowledgeable people were inclined to say that the sacrificed was Isaac(P). This was reported from some people of the salaf (i.e. people of the previous generations) and it was even reported from some Companions(R) but [this opinion] does not have any bearings from the Book (i.e., the Qur'ân) nor from the Sunnah.

I wonder, were Muhammads companions and their successors from 'Umar b. al-Khattab to Ka'b al-Ahbar wrong and others right?or did Muhammad give 2 contradictory answers?



what is clear so far is one thing : never did Jews and Christians differ about this, looooong time before Muhammad was even born.Why didnt Allah say clearly it was Ishmael, knowing that previous people "corrupted" the truth?

so the ones in doubt about it are only the Muslims, and the ones in doubt as to who was crucified are only the Muslims and Allah cleared up nothing but made a chaos out of both. You cannot accuse us of corruption if you yourselves have contradictory interpretations of these 2 events.

inJESUS Dec 22, '07 12:55 pm

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
[quote]
Quote:

Originally Posted by hamba2han (Post 3111931)
There is a key element in this story of Abraham's (pbuh) obedience to God in sacrificing his only son which can easily answer the question of which son was to be sacrificed i.e. that of God's command for all male children to be circumcised.

Genesis 17:10 "This [is] my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised."

Genesis 17:13 "He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant."

nice twist. Yet you ignore the fact that the command of circumcision has nothing to do with sacrifice since the command to sacrifice does not appear until Genesis 22 when Isaac was a young lad.

If you base your argument on twisting scriptures that you really are lost for proof.


And maybe you are able to document for us the fact that Ishmael's descendants have observed this practice of circumcising males on the eighth day from the time the promise was originally given to Abraham?

interesting to note yet:

Isaac spoke up and said to his father Abraham, 'Father?' 'Yes, my son?' Abraham replied. 'The fire and wood are here,' Isaac said, 'but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?' Abraham answered, 'God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.' And the two of them went on together." Genesis 22:7-8

but what did God provide? a ram. The Lamb came later:

The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, 'Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!'" John 1:29

Catholic Dude Dec 22, '07 2:47 pm

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 


Quote:

Originally Posted by hamba2han (Post 3111931)
There is a key element in this story of Abraham's (pbuh) obedience to God...

Genesis 17:10 "This [is] my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised."

Genesis 17:13 "He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant."

And according to the Bible, how old was Abraham (pbuh) when he was circumcised?

Genesis 17:24 "Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin."

That makes Abraham's son Ishmael 13, how old is Isaac at this time? Genesis 21:5 "Abraham was a hundred years old when his son Isaac was born to him."
This means that during the circumcision/sacrifice, Abraham's only "begotten" son is Ishmael and not Isaac as the Bible says.

The covenant therefore was made with Abraham and Ishmael.

The real problem here is that Christians and Jews do not believe (or more specifically, do not want to believe) what is so clearly written in their own Bible.

And no matter how much they try to twist and turn the issue, they just cannot turn away from what the Bible is telling them about the precise moment in time when the covenant was made...

All the parts in green above have a huge problem, here is what Gen 17 really says:
15 God also said to Abraham, "As for Sarai your wife, you are no longer to call her Sarai; her name will be Sarah. 16 I will bless her and will surely give you a son by her. I will bless her so that she will be the mother of nations; kings of peoples will come from her."
17 Abraham fell facedown; he laughed and said to himself, "Will a son be born to a man a hundred years old? Will Sarah bear a child at the age of ninety?" 18 And Abraham said to God, "If only Ishmael might live under your blessing!"
19 Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. 21 But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year."
The very passage talking about the covenant is extremely clear that it was through Isaac.

(continued)

Catholic Dude Dec 22, '07 2:47 pm

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
(continued)

Quote:

Originally Posted by malek (Post 3111122)
... just to clarify the Koran makes it clear that the sacrifice story took place before the birth of Isaac. Now whether u believe it was Isacc or Ishmael is up to you, but in Islam its clear that it was Ishmael, even though his name was not mentioned in this part, u just have to read the verses before and after to figure it out.

Koran surah 37 verses 100-113
100 "My Lord! Grant me (offspring) from the righteous."
101 So We gave him the glad tidings of a forbearing boy.

102 And, when he (his son) was old enough to walk with him, he said: "O my son! I have seen in a dream that I am slaughtering you (offer you in sacrifice to Allah)... ...
...
104 And We called out to him: "O Abraham!
105 You have fulfilled the dream (vision)!" Verily! Thus do We reward the Muhsinoon (good-doers)
106 Verily, that indeed was a manifest trial
107 And We ransomed him with a great sacrifice (i.e. a ram);
...
...
112 And We gave him the glad tidings of Ishaque (Isaac) a Prophet from the righteous.
113 We blessed him and Ishaque (Isaac), and of their progeny are (some) that do right, and some that plainly wrong themselves.

Does verse 112 mean Issac was THEN born? That looks like what "glad tidings" means. The problem here is the time line. v100 makes it look like a son was already born, and v112 makes it appear that AFTERWARDS Isaac was born. However v113 says a blessing upon Abraham and Isaac which would be very odd that Ishmael is not even mentioned! (especially because in v102 the son responds to Abraham that God's will be done which he should be honored for in v113.

Quote:

Originally Posted by malek (Post 3111301)
The bible agrees that Ishmael was the eldest. ... ... the TRUTH is that God asked him to sacrifice Ishmael, his eldest and only son at the time, and this what makes it a real trial for prophet Ibrahim. ... ...

The first and biggest problem here is that your own book doesnt mention Ishmael, thus you cant say "The Bible agrees" but rather "I agree with the Bible".
As for the time of sacrifice the Bible is clear it was after Isaac was born (Gn 22) and it was after it said through Isaac the covenant would be established (Gn 17:15-21).

Quote:

I believe that the Koran corrects the mistakes that r in the Bible. ...
The problem with your argument is that the Koran does not correct the mistake! Ishmael is not even mentioned.
This is a HUGE corruption in the Bible if you are correct, but why was such a huge corruption not clearly corrected?

Quote:

There is really no conflict between the Bible and the Qur'an and the only places where there exists variances between these two sciptures is when the Bible actually contradicts itself as can be seen in the story of Abraham, Ishmael and Isaac (peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all)
You cant compare the two books, the Bible is much much longer and more in depth and detail, there is no comparison.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hamba2han (Post 3112610)
... ...
...
Genesis 21
12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
13 And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed.
14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beer–sheba.

It is therefore totally beyond logic to think that Abraham did not know Ishmael (pbut) was still alive because he was being commanded by none other than God Himself.

You are selectively citing the Bible, picking what you like and ignoring what you disagree with. It is clear Hagar and Ishmael were "sent away" leaving Isaac as the one and only heir and promise of the covenant.

inJESUS Dec 23, '07 2:02 am

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Catholic Dude (Post 3113384)
This is a HUGE corruption in the Bible if you are correct, but why was such a huge corruption not clearly corrected?[/color]

isn't it strange that the mission of the author of the Quran is to "correct" and "clear doubts"?

what did the author clarify about this huge and serious corruption? nothing, he made it a bigger confusion that resulted in Muslim scholars refuting each others while all claiming to have heard it from Muhammad.

what did the author of Quran clarify about the crucifixion? nothing, he made it a bigger , if not the biggest confusion that resulted in a thousand theory none of which makes sense and ironically the author said "those who are full of doubt", when the clear fact is that the ones full of doubt about it have always been the Muslims!

what did the author of the Quran clarify about the Trinity belief? nothing , he made it a bigger confusion that resulted in Muslims believing we worship Mary and 3 gods.

what did the author of Quran clarify about the title son of God in Christianity? nothing, he made it a bigger confusion that resulted in Muslims believing that God had a woman and therefore had a physical son.

All in all, the author of the Quran did anything but clarify things because he himself did not undrstand them so how can he clarify them? and the result is Muslims not undrstanding them as well, in addition to confusion that is why when they put their answers about our belief on our forum, you can't help but raise both of your eyebrows, all while claiming that their knowledge of our belief was said literally by an all-knowing deity, who, obviously, knows nothing of what we really believe in that is why his refutations make no sense as we do not believe in them in the first place.

hamba2han Dec 23, '07 3:01 am

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by inJESUS (Post 3112986)
Here is the hadith again:

Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 55, Number 583)
Narrated Ibn Abbas:

The first lady to use a girdle was the mother of Ishmael. She used a girdle so that she might hide her tracks from Sarah. Abraham brought her and her son Ishmael while she was suckling him, to a place near the Ka'ba under a tree on the spot of Zam-zam, at the highest place in the mosque. During those days there was nobody in Mecca, nor was there any water. So he made them sit over there and placed near them a leather bag containing some dates, and a small water-skin containing some water, and set out homeward. Ishmael's mother followed him saying, "O Abraham! Where are you going, leaving us in this valley where there is no person whose company we may enjoy, nor is there anything (to enjoy)?" She repeated that to him many times, but he did not look back at her. Then she asked him, "Has Allah ordered you to do so?" He said, "Yes." She said, "Then He will not neglect us,"...The child (i.e. Ishmael) grew up and learnt Arabic from them and (his virtues) caused them to love and admire him as he grew up, and when he reached the age of puberty they made him marry a woman from amongst them. After Ishmael's mother had died, Abraham came after Ishmael's marriage in order to see his family that he had left before, but he did not find Ishmael there. When he asked Ishmael's wife about him, she replied, "He has gone in search of our livelihood.' ...




so Allah ordered Abraham to leave Hajar and his suckling son in order to go back to Sarah..why if he is to sacrifice Ishmael?and when did Ishmael return to be sacrificied if he grew up where he settled and got married before seeing his father?where was Ishmael at the "age of running" as per Quran? he was with his mother, not with Abraham who saw him after he got married.

Christians need to make up their minds here.

If you accept that this hadith is true, then you MUST of course reject the Biblical account whereby Ishmael (pbuh) is already a 16-year old teenager when he was sent away with his mother after supposedly mocking his little brother because this hadith clearly states that Ishmael (pbuh) was just a suckling infant at the time and this completely contradicts the story of the "banishment" according to the Bible.

And if indeed you accept the truth of this hadith and consequently reject the Biblical account, then the issue of whether it was really Ishmael or Isaac (pbut) who was to be sacrificed becomes rather insignificant, does it not?

I mean, if the Bible is not correct in saying that Ishmael (pbuh) was mocking his little brother when in actual fact Isaac (pbuh) was not even born yet at the time of this alleged "banishment", then what exactly is it that makes you so sure that the covenant was made through Isaac?

Like I have previously pointed out, according to the Bible, the covenant was made at the time the command was given to circumcise male children.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catholic Dude (Post 3113384)
You are selectively citing the Bible, picking what you like and ignoring what you disagree with.

Yes, I do know how Christians feel about the Bible.

paarsurrey Dec 23, '07 3:03 am

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Hi

Sorry, I would contribute something about clarity and confusion in this thread,incidentally I posted it into CARM today.


http://www.christiandiscussionforums...&postcount=180
http://www.christiandiscussionforums...t=81506&page=9
http://www.christiandiscussionforums...&postcount=124

Quote:

Originally Posted by paarsurrey
Hi
The JWs believe that they are the only true Christians, and they are entitled to equal rights and free will as you do.
The Catholics believe that the Protestants are a cult or a heretic denomination; the Catholics you know are the majority denomination and of course they are entitled to equal rights and free will as you do.
I would like that JWs , the Protestants and Catholics etc about 32000plus denomination should unite into One Christendom to end the confusion in the Christianity for peace in the world, not compromising but uniting in truth with peaceful dialogue.
I think you agree with me.
Thanks

Quote:

originally Posted by RAIDERJO76
Protestants, Catholics, and Jehovah's Witnesses cannot unite because each is an entirely separate religion and none of them can coexist. Neither Catholicism nor Jehovah's Witnesses are Christian. They are both apostate and teach completely heretical doctrine; therefore they shouldn't be considered Christian denominations.

inJESUS Dec 23, '07 3:24 am

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
[quote]
Quote:

Originally Posted by hamba2han (Post 3114892)
Christians need to make up their minds here.

If you accept that this hadith is true, then you MUST of course reject the Biblical account whereby Ishmael (pbuh) is already a 16-year old teenager when he was sent away with his mother after supposedly mocking his little brother because this hadith clearly states that Ishmael (pbuh) was just a suckling infant at the time and this completely contradicts the story of the "banishment" according to the Bible.

And if indeed you accept the truth of this hadith and consequently reject the Biblical account, then the issue of whether it was really Ishmael or Isaac (pbut) who was to be sacrificed becomes rather insignificant, does it not?

it is YOUR tradition that opposes your claim that it was Ishmael so the Bible HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO HERE. I believe neither Quran nor tradition but am pointing out that your tradition betrays your claim. Do i really need to explain this?



Quote:

Like I have previously pointed out, according to the Bible, the covenant was made at the time the command was given to circumcise male children.
what does this have to do with the sacrifice?

inJESUS Dec 23, '07 3:26 am

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Paar dont you think this is off-topic?

hamba2han Dec 23, '07 3:50 am

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by inJESUS (Post 3114900)
it is YOUR tradition that opposes your claim that it was Ishmael so the Bible HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO HERE. I believe neither Quran nor tradition but am pointing out that your tradition betrays your claim. Do i really need to explain this?

The Bible has ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING to do with it because it is YOUR Bible that contradicts your claim that it was Isaac (pbuh).

Quote:

what does this have to do with the sacrifice?
If the Bible is completely wrong in the story of the alleged mocking and subsequent banishment of Ishmael (pbuh), then what, pray tell, does the sacrifice have to do with the covenant?

inJESUS Dec 23, '07 4:07 am

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
[quote]
Quote:

Originally Posted by hamba2han (Post 3114919)
The Bible has ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING to do with it because it is YOUR Bible that contradicts your claim that it was Isaac (pbuh).

how so if the Bible says:

Then God said, "YES, BUT YOUR WIFE SARAH WILL BEAR YOU A SON, AND YOU WILL CALL HIM ISAAC. I WILL ESTABLISH MY COVENANT WITH HIM AS AN EVERLASTING COVENANT FOR HIS DESCENDANTS AFTER HIM.


where is the contradiction in these plain words?


Quote:

If the Bible is completely wrong in the story of the alleged mocking and subsequent banishment of Ishmael (pbuh), then what, pray tell, does the sacrifice have to do with the covenant?
didn't i already say that the sacrifice was spoken about in Gen 22 after the covenant? it is you who are mixing both. The covenant is to be made with Isaac, son of Sarah, Abraham's wife.

inJESUS Dec 23, '07 4:12 am

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
I repeat again:

it is YOUR tradition that opposes your claim that it was Ishmael so the Bible HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO HERE. I believe neither Quran nor tradition but am pointing out that your tradition betrays your claim. Your tradition is clear that Ishmael was NOT with Abraham at "the age of running" but was exiled long time before not to see Abraham until he got married for the second time even.

The Bible clearly says the covenant is with Isaac.

So you can neither claim the Bible does not say it, nor are you answering your own tradition.

Jesusisgod Dec 23, '07 5:13 am

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hamba2han (Post 3114892)
Christians need to make up their minds here.

If you accept that this hadith is true, then you MUST of course reject the Biblical account whereby Ishmael (pbuh) is already a 16-year old teenager when he was sent away with his mother after supposedly mocking his little brother because this hadith clearly states that Ishmael (pbuh) was just a suckling infant at the time and this completely contradicts the story of the "banishment" according to the Bible.

And if indeed you accept the truth of this hadith and consequently reject the Biblical account, then the issue of whether it was really Ishmael or Isaac (pbut) who was to be sacrificed becomes rather insignificant, does it not?

I mean, if the Bible is not correct in saying that Ishmael (pbuh) was mocking his little brother when in actual fact Isaac (pbuh) was not even born yet at the time of this alleged "banishment", then what exactly is it that makes you so sure that the covenant was made through Isaac?

Like I have previously pointed out, according to the Bible, the covenant was made at the time the command was given to circumcise male children.


Yes, I do know how Christians feel about the Bible.

Anybody who accepts any islamic hadith as reliable except in its record of the shames of muhammad is a lunatic.

Catholic Dude Dec 23, '07 3:28 pm

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hamba2han (Post 3114892)
Yes, I do know how Christians feel about the Bible.

That doesnt answer my claims. Christians think of the Bible very highly, so much so that we cant over look the glaring selective citations of the Bible you post as "evidence".

The Bible stands alone in regards to its historical witness and its detail.

swariffin Dec 23, '07 6:58 pm

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by exoflare (Post 3110569)
Actually the Quran doesn't even say Ishmael either.. all it says is that Abraham was told to sacrifice his son, but it never mentions the son's name. That this son was Ishmael rather than Isaac developed purely out of Muslim oral tradition.

EDIT: sorry, looks like this was cleared up already. :o

Dear Exoflare and InJesus,

Thank you for your clarifications. So, the muslims believe in conspiracy theory of the OT which cannot be proven? I think this is a very fundamental issue. I wish that our Muslim brothers can come out with veriyable proof, not self-claim proof or just a mere accusations. It seems even the writer of Quran did not dare to explicitly wrote Ishmael instead of Isaac.

swariffin Dec 23, '07 7:09 pm

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hamba2han (Post 3111931)
There is a key element in this story of Abraham's (pbuh) obedience to God in sacrificing his only son which can easily answer the question of which son was to be sacrificed i.e. that of God's command for all male children to be circumcised.

Genesis 17:10 "This [is] my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised."

Genesis 17:13 "He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant."

And according to the Bible, how old was Abraham (pbuh) when he was circumcised?

Genesis 17:24 "Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin."

That makes Abraham's son Ishmael 13, how old is Isaac at this time? Genesis 21:5 "Abraham was a hundred years old when his son Isaac was born to him."

This means that during the circumcision/sacrifice, Abraham's only "begotten" son is Ishmael and not Isaac as the Bible says.

The covenant therefore was made with Abraham and Ishmael.

The real problem here is that Christians and Jews do not believe (or more specifically, do not want to believe) what is so clearly written in their own Bible.

And no matter how much they try to twist and turn the issue, they just cannot turn away from what the Bible is telling them about the precise moment in time when the covenant was made..

There is really no conflict between the Bible and the Qur'an and the only places where there exists variances between these two sciptures is when the Bible actually contradicts itself as can be seen in the story of Abraham, Ishmael and Isaac (peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all).

Dear Hamba2han,

We believe the bible, because we (at least some of us) have read the bible entirely, not just a verse by a verse. We have studied the bible entirely (at least some of us, especially those scholar-priests). Eventhough the bible is not a history/science book, we checked what was written against what science has discovered. All interpretations of a verse is checked against interpretations of other verses. Since your Quran came later, and claim to correct what was wrong with the bible, what proof do you bring? Just the Quran, itself? Hey, what about the Satanic Verses by Salman Rusdhie? His works came later than the Quran, and the proof he brought was the Book itself right? Should we believe in the later version of the Quran which came from Salman Rusdhie?

planten Dec 23, '07 9:58 pm

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Valke2 (Post 3112538)
It would be a factor in viewing it as a test of faith for Abraham. If Abraham believed Isaac was his only surviving son, then, as far as testing his faith, it is not relevant if he actually had another surviving son.

This discussion can be useful only if the status of Ishamel is decided first. Was Ishamel the son of Abraham? The son is always referred to the father, not to the mother. please let us know, as per bible OT, was Ishmael the son of Abraham or not?

Valke2 Dec 24, '07 6:30 am

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by planten (Post 3117768)
This discussion can be useful only if the status of Ishamel is decided first. Was Ishamel the son of Abraham? The son is always referred to the father, not to the mother. please let us know, as per bible OT, was Ishmael the son of Abraham or not?

Ishmael was, I believe, the son of Abraham. There were various ways a child of a women who was not the legal wife would nevertheless be the legitimate child of the father.

inJESUS Dec 24, '07 7:03 am

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by swariffin (Post 3117342)
Dear Exoflare and InJesus,

Thank you for your clarifications. So, the muslims believe in conspiracy theory of the OT which cannot be proven?

2 points here :

1- it is not Muslims..it is some Muslims, as i have showed many of the best scholars believe it was Isaac


2- yes those who believe it was Ishmael cannot do better than claiming, as usual, the Bible is corrupt...do they have an option? but the OT, NT and both Jewish and Christian traditions show they are, as usual, wrong and base their arguments on nothing but claims.

planten Dec 24, '07 9:29 am

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Valke2 (Post 3118449)
Ishmael was, I believe, the son of Abraham. There were various ways a child of a women who was not the legal wife would nevertheless be the legitimate child of the father.

Thanks for your fairmind. You have admitted that Ishmael was the son of Abraham even though not from the first wife. Abraham had a second wife (Hagar) and a third (Keturah) one too. So Ishmael was the legitimate son of Abraham. He was also the first born son. he was also the only son for thirteen years. I hope this will be admitted.

Sarai gave Hagar to Abraham as wife (Gen. 16). We see some sons born to Jacob through maids. Your sentence about the legitimacy of sons is, I hope, world wide, all encompassing.??

planten Dec 24, '07 10:05 am

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 

The bible says that it was Issac who was sacrificed. Quran does not say so. The Quran does not name Ishamel too. But the sequence of events is very clear in the Quran chapter 37 verses 83 to 112 shown below: (Noble Quran Translation)

83. And, verily, among those who followed his [Nűh's (Noah)] way (Islâmic Monotheism) was Ibrâhim (Abraham).
84. When he came to his Lord with a pure heart [attached to Allâh Alone and none else, worshipping none but Allâh Alone true Islâmic Monotheism, pure from the filth of polytheism].
85. When he said to his father and to his people: "What is it that which you worship?
86. "Is it a falsehood âliha (gods) other than Allâh that you seek?
87. "Then what do you think about the Lord of the 'Alamîn (mankind, jinns, and all that exists)?"
88. Then he cast a glance at the stars (to deceive them),
89. And he said: "Verily, I am sick (with plague. He did this trick to remain in their temple of idols to destroy them and not to accompany them to the pagan's feast)."
90. So they turned away from him, and departed (for fear of the disease).
91. Then he turned to their âliha (gods) and said: "Will you not eat (of the offering before you)?
92. "What is the matter with you that you speak not?"
93. Then he turned upon them, striking (them) with (his) right hand.
94. Then they (the worshippers of idols) came, towards him, hastening.
95. He said: "Worship you that which you (yourselves) carve?
96. "While Allâh has created you and what you make!"
97. They said: "Build for him a building (it is said that the building was like a furnace) and throw him into the blazing fire!"
98. So they plotted a plot against him, but We made them the lowest. (losers)
99. And he said (after his rescue from the fire): "Verily, I am going to my Lord. He will guide me!"
[Abraham left his native country]
100. "My Lord! Grant me (offspring) from the righteous."
[ He had no children. He prayed to Allah to grant him a son]
101. So We gave him the glad tidings of a forbearing boy.
[So Allah gave him the good news of a son. This is the good news of the first son, Ishmael]
102. And, when he (his son) was old enough to walk with him, he said: "O my son! I have seen in a dream that I am slaughtering you (offer you in sacrifice to Allâh), so look what you think!" He said: "O my father! Do that which you are commanded, Inshâ' Allâh (if Allâh will), you shall find me of As-Sâbirin (the patient ones, etc.)."

[This word patient one is very important. Ishmael is mentioned in the Quran as the patient one. ]
103. Then, when they had both submitted themselves (to the Will of Allâh), and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (or on the side of his forehead for slaughtering);
104. And We called out to him: "O Abraham!
105. You have fulfilled the dream (vision)!" Verily! Thus do We reward the Muhsinűn (good-doers - see V.2:112).
106. Verily, that indeed was a manifest trial
107. And We ransomed him with a great sacrifice (i.e. ßČÔ - a ram);
108. And We left for him (a goodly remembrance) among generations (to come) in later times.
109. Salâmun (peace) be upon Ibrâhim (Abraham)!"
110. Thus indeed do We reward the Muhsinűn (good-doers - see V.2:112).
111. Verily, he was one of Our believing slaves.
112. And We gave him the glad tidings of Ishâque (Isaac) a Prophet from the righteous.

[ This is the good news of the birth of Issac. Abraham was told that Issac will be a prophet. Abraham was also told about the birth of Jacob from Issac. ]

The sequence is very clear. Abraham went through many trials. He was steadfast. He had to leave his country. Allah promised to give him the big land, that he will inherit the land as far as he can see.
But he felt that it will be no use. He was old and what use could that land be to him. So he prayed to Allah to grant him a son. The prayer was accepted and Sarai had the good heart. Her heart opened up for the sake of her husband. She offered her maid (Hagar) to Abraham as a wife. Allah grnted the first son to Abraham at the age of 86 from that Hagar.

Then there was another trial for Abraham. He was told in a vision to sacrifice his best thing in the way of Allah. He tried to sacrifice some animals but he saw the same vision again a few nights. So he understood the message and got ready to sacrifice his only beloved son of old age (Ishmael). He passed this very hard test also. Allah was all the more pleased with him and so Allah gave him the good news of the birth of Issac.

That is the sequence of events as described in the Quran. Without naming any one, it tells us that it was the first born son who was sacrificed. That was Ishmael. Ishmael was also the promised son, as per verse 101 of Quran and also as per the bible OT. He was the promised son.

ralphinal Dec 24, '07 10:18 am

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
This thread is amazing to me. We have the Koran with a certain order and we have the Bible with another. The part that amazes me is the answer from the Muslims. The Bible is very clear that Isaac was the promised son.

Quote:

Then God said, "YES, BUT YOUR WIFE SARAH WILL BEAR YOU A SON, AND YOU WILL CALL HIM ISAAC. I WILL ESTABLISH MY COVENANT WITH HIM AS AN EVERLASTING COVENANT FOR HIS DESCENDANTS AFTER HIM.
But, I have yet to see the Muslim answer to this. The chronolgy is different in the two books as well. Both sides have a reason to say that they are correct. Perhaps we can change the question.

Does anyone have any proof that Ishmael was the sacrifice that pre-dates the Koran? In other words, was this thought out there before? Genesis is older and an Arabic person wrote the Koran, so why should I not think that he put Ishmael in there for political reasons?

Catholic Dude Dec 24, '07 1:51 pm

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
If you have been following this thread you will see these are the major problems that exist:

1)The Quaran does not mention Ishmael, so where do you get that name if not from the Bible?

2)Muslim scholars say it was Isaac.

3)You have no grounds to say the Bible is corrupt, and it is clear the Bible contradicts your claims.

4)The Bible clearly teaches Ishmael was sent off to live apart from Abraham because Isaac was the one and only true heir of the Promise. And though Isaac's lineage the Prophets, Scriptures and Messiah came.

Quote:

Originally Posted by planten (Post 3119018)
The bible says that it was Issac who was sacrificed. Quran does not say so. The Quran does not name Ishamel too. But the sequence of events is very clear in the Quran chapter 37 verses 83 to 112 shown below: (Noble Quran Translation)

99. And he said (after his rescue from the fire): "Verily, I am going to my Lord. He will guide me!"
[Abraham left his native country]
100. "My Lord! Grant me (offspring) from the righteous."
[ He had no children. He prayed to Allah to grant him a son]
101. So We gave him the glad tidings of a forbearing boy.
[So Allah gave him the good news of a son. This is the good news of the first son, Ishmael]
102. And, when he (his son) was old enough to walk with him, he said: "O my son! I have seen in a dream that I am slaughtering you (offer you in sacrifice to Allâh), so look what you think!" He said: "O my father! Do that which you are commanded, Inshâ' Allâh (if Allâh will), you shall find me of As-Sâbirin (the patient ones, etc.)."

[This word patient one is very important. Ishmael is mentioned in the Quran as the patient one. ]
103. Then, when they had both submitted themselves (to the Will of Allâh), and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (or on the side of his forehead for slaughtering);
104. And We called out to him: "O Abraham!
105. You have fulfilled the dream (vision)!" Verily! Thus do We reward the Muhsinűn (good-doers - see V.2:112).
106. Verily, that indeed was a manifest trial
107. And We ransomed him with a great sacrifice (i.e. ßČÔ - a ram);
108. And We left for him (a goodly remembrance) among generations (to come) in later times.
109. Salâmun (peace) be upon Ibrâhim (Abraham)!"
110. Thus indeed do We reward the Muhsinűn (good-doers - see V.2:112).
111. Verily, he was one of Our believing slaves.
112. And We gave him the glad tidings of Ishâque (Isaac) a Prophet from the righteous.

[ This is the good news of the birth of Issac. Abraham was told that Issac will be a prophet. Abraham was also told about the birth of Jacob from Issac. ]

The sequence is very clear. Abraham went through many trials. He was steadfast. He had to leave his country. Allah promised to give him the big land, that he will inherit the land as far as he can see.
But he felt that it will be no use. He was old and what use could that land be to him. So he prayed to Allah to grant him a son. The prayer was accepted and Sarai had the good heart. Her heart opened up for the sake of her husband. She offered her maid (Hagar) to Abraham as a wife. Allah grnted the first son to Abraham at the age of 86 from that Hagar.

Then there was another trial for Abraham. He was told in a vision to sacrifice his best thing in the way of Allah. He tried to sacrifice some animals but he saw the same vision again a few nights. So he understood the message and got ready to sacrifice his only beloved son of old age (Ishmael). He passed this very hard test also. Allah was all the more pleased with him and so Allah gave him the good news of the birth of Issac.

That is the sequence of events as described in the Quran. Without naming any one, it tells us that it was the first born son who was sacrificed. That was Ishmael. Ishmael was also the promised son, as per verse 101 of Quran and also as per the bible OT. He was the promised son.


Catholic Dude Dec 24, '07 1:58 pm

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ralphinal (Post 3119062)
This thread is amazing to me. We have the Koran with a certain order and we have the Bible with another. The part that amazes me is the answer from the Muslims. The Bible is very clear that Isaac was the promised son.

But, I have yet to see the Muslim answer to this. The chronolgy is different in the two books as well. Both sides have a reason to say that they are correct. Perhaps we can change the question.

Does anyone have any proof that Ishmael was the sacrifice that pre-dates the Koran? In other words, was this thought out there before? Genesis is older and an Arabic person wrote the Koran, so why should I not think that he put Ishmael in there for political reasons?

The Quaran does list the events in a different order that the Bible, but DOES that mean it was dealing strictly with chronology at that point? In other words just because it was listed "first" does not necessarily mean it was chronologically first. Apparently some (most?) Muslim scholars historically teach it was in reference to Isaac.

Reading it as it stands, I see it saying that the sacrifice did happen chronologically before Isaac was born. And that is a problem.

It is pretty clear to me that this was changed to give Ishmael a more prominent place in salvation history, but the plain fact which I cannot overlook is the fact all the Scriptures, Prophets and Messiah came through Isaac and the Jacob (Israel). Thus the Promises God had in mind for Salvation history could not have been through Ishmael who was off the radar for thousands of years.

ralphinal Dec 24, '07 2:05 pm

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Catholic Dude (Post 3119612)
It is pretty clear to me that this was changed to give Ishmael a more prominent place in salvation history, but the plain fact which I cannot overlook is the fact all the Scriptures, Prophets and Messiah came through Isaac and the Jacob (Israel). Thus the Promises God had in mind for Salvation history could not have been through Ishmael who was off the radar for thousands of years.

If that is the case, that it was changed to give Ishmael a more prominant role for the Arabic readers, it begs the question, at least to me, if the Koran is as much a political mechination that could be the seed to unify a people as much as it is a religious text? IN other words, was it created as a rallying cry to unify and became a religious text as a result?

Catholic Dude Dec 24, '07 2:15 pm

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ralphinal (Post 3119627)
If that is the case, that it was changed to give Ishmael a more prominant role for the Arabic readers, it begs the question, at least to me, if the Koran is as much a political mechination that could be the seed to unify a people as much as it is a religious text? IN other words, was it created as a rallying cry to unify and became a religious text as a result?

This was NOT a political tool, as if human institution could even rise to such success, as Christians we are required to believe this was a result of divine inspiration, but not from above (2 Cor 11:13f; 1 Jn 2:22; 4:3; 2 Jn 1:7).

ralphinal Dec 24, '07 7:06 pm

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Catholic Dude (Post 3119646)
This was NOT a political tool, as if human institution could even rise to such success, as Christians we are required to believe this was a result of divine inspiration, but not from above (2 Cor 11:13f; 1 Jn 2:22; 4:3; 2 Jn 1:7).

Must the two things be mututally exclusive?

inJESUS Dec 25, '07 1:51 pm

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
[quote]
Quote:

Originally Posted by planten (Post 3119018)
99. And he said (after his rescue from the fire): "Verily, I am going to my Lord. He will guide me!"
[Abraham left his native country]
100. "My Lord! Grant me (offspring) from the righteous."
[ He had no children. He prayed to Allah to grant him a son]
101. So We gave him the glad tidings of a forbearing boy.
[So Allah gave him the good news of a son. This is the good news of the first son, Ishmael]

I quoted your scholar before who said that when Abraham uttered these words, Hagar was not in the picture yet. There was only Sarah and that the glad tidings refer always to Isaac in Quran, never to Ishmael. so on what basis are you saying Ishmael and Hagar?

Quote:

102. And, when he (his son) was old enough to walk with him, he said: "O my son! I have seen in a dream that I am slaughtering you (offer you in sacrifice to Allâh), so look what you think!" He said: "O my father! Do that which you are commanded, Inshâ' Allâh (if Allâh will), you shall find me of As-Sâbirin (the patient ones, etc.)."

[This word patient one is very important. Ishmael is mentioned in the Quran as the patient one. ]
when Ishmael was old enough to walk with Abraham, he was with his mother Hagar in a different, distant place, never to see Abraham until he got married.

Quote:

107. And We ransomed him with a great sacrifice (i.e. ßČÔ - a ram);
what is so great about a ram?





Why don't you answer your own tradition and scholars?

planten Dec 25, '07 10:56 pm

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
[quote=inJESUS;3121480][quote]

Quote:

I quoted your scholar before who said that when Abraham uttered these words, Hagar was not in the picture yet. There was only Sarah and that the glad tidings refer always to Isaac in Quran, never to Ishmael. so on what basis are you saying Ishmael and Hagar?


Yes, Muslim scholars, some of them felt that it was Issac who was sacrificed. But they are not infallible. There are thousands of them. Not all said that it was Issac who was sacrificed.

Even now we may find some people who do not know the reality. You say Hagar was not in the picture. Which picture?? Do you mean bible or Quran? The Quran reports about the glad tidings of the first born (verse 37:101 and also about the glad tidings for the second son (issac) in verse 37:112.
In verse 37:102, Ismail says to his father Abraham ' God willing you will find me as one of the patient ones". That means he agreed to be sacrificed. Note the word "saabireen" in the verse.

Now go to verse 21:85. There you will find the report about Ishmael and Idrees and zal Kifl. Allah says "they were all patient" ( Again the word 'saabireen" is used
.


Quote:

when Ishmael was old enough to walk with Abraham, he was with his mother Hagar in a different, distant place, never to see Abraham until he got married.
That is correct. He (Ishmael) was with his mother and father (Abraham) in Arabia. The incident of the sacrifice took place in Makkah, not in kana'an.

Quote:

what is so great about a ram?

Why don't you answer your own tradition and scholars?
Ram is there in both cases, in bible mentioned clearly. But in Quran it is not mentioned clearly. The only thing is that in bible, Abraham did not tell Issac what he was going to do. Issac kept on asking about the animal for sacrifice. Abraham did not tell him what was the mission. He said, "It will be provided."

swariffin Dec 26, '07 2:25 am

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
[quote=planten;3122374][quote=inJESUS;3121480]
Quote:




Yes, Muslim scholars, some of them felt that it was Issac who was sacrificed. But they are not infallible. There are thousands of them. Not all said that it was Issac who was sacrificed.

"[/color][/size]
Dear Planten,

Could you please make your posting in larger font-size. Your font size is too small for my old eyes. Otherwise, I will find you and charge you for a new glasses. Just kidding.. brother:D :D Keep on posting.

De Maria Dec 26, '07 4:56 am

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hamba2han (Post 3109430)
This is the relevant verse from the Qur'an:

Then, when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, he said: "O my son! I see in vision that I offer thee in sacrifice: Now see what is thy view!" (The son) said: "O my father! Do as thou art commanded: thou will find me, if Allah so wills one practising Patience and Constancy!" .. Al-Qur'an, 037.102

And so, we see that the son who's life was to be sacrificed was old enough to work and also to speak words of support and reassurance to his father who was commanded by God to kill him.

If we are to accept the relevant verses from the Bible as was pointed out in my previous post, does this indicate that the one who was to be sacrificed to be still an infant OR a 13 year old boy?

Isaac was old enough to walk and talk and work at the time of the sacrifice:

Genesis 22
6 And he took the wood for the holocaust, and laid it upon Isaac his son: and he himself carried in his hands fire and a sword. And as they two went on together,
7 Isaac said to his father: My father. And he answered: What wilt thou, son? Behold, saith he, fire and wood: where is the victim for the holocaust?

Which of course, leads up to this most beautiful of prophecies:

8 And Abraham said: God will provide himself a victim for an holocaust, my son. So they went on together.

Sincerely,

De Maria

inJESUS Dec 26, '07 2:08 pm

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
[quote][quote=planten;3122374][quote=inJESUS;3121480]
Quote:




Yes, Muslim scholars, some of them felt that it was Issac who was sacrificed. But they are not infallible. There are thousands of them. Not all said that it was Issac who was sacrificed.
indeed, the Quran was too confusing that different scholars refuted each others, each basing his explanation on Muhammad's words!..the companions are known to have adopted the Isaac interpretation...do you think the sahaba must have been wrong as well?
in light of all this, how can you be sure it was Ishmael, and worse yet claim the Jews corrupted it, without Jesus or His disciples mentioning it?

Quote:

[size="1"][color="Purple"]Even now we may find some people who do not know the reality. You say Hagar was not in the picture. Which picture?? Do you mean bible or Quran?
refer to my quotation. When God promised Abraham, there was only Sarah...Abraham did not receive this promise while sitting with Sarah's maidervant!




Quote:

That is correct. He (Ishmael) was with his mother and father (Abraham) in Arabia. The incident of the sacrifice took place in Makkah, not in kana'an.
the hadith says Abraham saw Ishmael after he got married...the Quran says the son was of the age of running...when Ishmael was in the age of runnig, he was not with Abraham, and did not see him for years to come.


Quote:

[size="1"][color="Purple"]Ram is there in both cases, in bible mentioned clearly. But in Quran it is not mentioned clearly.
in the Bible it is clear that Moses said God will provide the LAMB yet what God provided was a RAM. The Lamb came when John uttered : this is the Lamb of God (Jesus)..this is why this is important because the sacrifice foshadowed was that of a GREAT sacrifice indeed. But why does the Quran call a ram GREAT?what is so great about a ram?

zerinus Dec 27, '07 7:46 am

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by inJESUS (Post 3124081)
indeed, the Quran was too confusing that different scholars refuted each others, each basing his explanation on Muhammad's words!..the companions are known to have adopted the Isaac interpretation...do you think the sahaba must have been wrong as well?

in light of all this, how can you be sure it was Ishmael, and worse yet claim the Jews corrupted it, without Jesus or His disciples mentioning it?

Thank you inJESUS for your interesting and well-researched comments in this thread. As I had previously mentioned in another post, I believe that Islam and has been changed form its original teachings. Even the Koran itself was changed. This is what I had said in another post:

Quote:

I believe that the Koran was changed. I believe all the signs indicate that Islam was originally a Christ-centred religion. But it was later changed in order to set it apart from historical Christianity, and turn it into a completely unique religion. The earliest rulers of Islam (after Mohamed) felt that that change was needed in order to strengthen their political position in a predominantly Christian world; therefore they made that change. I am strongly of the opinion that that is the case. There are some telltale signs in the history of early Islam that point in that direction.
I believe that this is true; and all the things that you have pointed out here are indications pointing to that direction.

Moslems usually like to take pride in their belief that the Koran has not changed! But that is not true. The current edition of the Koran was edited and compiled by a committee consisting of the first four Khalifs; and after they had created their “standard edition,” they ordered all other copies of the Koran, and the fragments from which they had made their compilation, to be destroyed! Why would they want to do that, if they had nothing to hide?

There are many signs indicating that Islam was originally a Christ-centred religion. For example, the al-Mahdi doctrine is essentially a Messianic concept; and they even believe that it is Christ who will return and rule, not Mohamed or any other Moslem figure! They have only made some cosmetic and unconvincing changes to it (without any clear authoritative source) in order to give it an Islamic flavour. But the actual theology of it is as confusing and unclear as the question of who was sacrificed, Ishmael or Isaac, which you have very well researched and described.

zerinus

Rbt Southwell Dec 27, '07 6:00 pm

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by zerinus (Post 3126133)

Moslems usually like to take pride in their belief that the Koran has not changed! But that is not true. The current edition of the Koran was edited and compiled by a committee consisting of the first four Khalifs; and after they had created their “standard edition,” they ordered all other copies of the Koran, and the fragments from which they had made their compilation, to be destroyed! Why would they want to do that, if they had nothing to hide?

zerinus[/color]



Wow, just like mormons changing the book of mormon!

Oops, I mean "translating" it better.


Robert

zerinus Dec 27, '07 6:14 pm

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rbt Southwell (Post 3128044)
Wow, just like mormons changing the book of mormon!

Oops, I mean "translating" it better.


Robert

http://media.funlol.com/content/img/up-yours.jpg

zerinus

Valke2 Dec 27, '07 7:06 pm

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Let's not forget that being the first born was not exactly considered f"best in show" in the book of Genesis.

Cain was born before Able.
Ishmael was born before Isaac.
Esau was born before Jacob.
Joseph's brothers (most of them) were born before Joseph
Aaron was born before Moses. (I know its in Exodus, but you get the point).

planten Dec 27, '07 10:55 pm

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Valke2 (Post 3128244)
Let's not forget that being the first born was not exactly considered f"best in show" in the book of Genesis.

Cain was born before Able.
Ishmael was born before Isaac.
Esau was born before Jacob.
Joseph's brothers (most of them) were born before Joseph
Aaron was born before Moses. (I know its in Exodus, but you get the point).

Yes, good points, very good points. But I would rather exclude Esau from the list who was cheated. His father had marked him for the blessings. (Not sacrifice)
About others, say Cain, Joseph, Aaron, it is to note that there is no offer as a sacrifice. If we read the bible OT, we find that every where it is written to bring the first born for the sacrifice. That rule of first born applies for the sacrifice. And Aaron or Joseph or jacob or Esau were not going to be presented for sacrifice. Can you please see that point?

zerinus Dec 28, '07 4:27 am

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by planten (Post 3128762)
Yes, good points, very good points. But I would rather exclude Esau from the list who was cheated. His father had marked him for the blessings.

Actually that is not right. Esau was never approved by God, nor by his parents, because his actions were not right before them. When his mother was pregnant with him, God told her that she had twins in her womb, and that “the elder [Esau] shall serve the younger [Jacob]” (Genesis 25:23). Later on, Esau “despised his birthright,” and sold his birthright to Jacob for a “mess of potage” (Genesis 25:31–33; Hebrews 12:16). Therefore the birthright was no longer his. It had been passed on to Jacob by Esau’s own unrighteous choice.

Esau was not “cheated” of anything. He lost his birthright to Jacob through his own voluntary decision. He was no longer the “firstborn”. Later on God said through the prophets that He had “loved Jacob” but “hated Esau” (Malachi 1:2–3; Romans 9:13).


Quote:

About others, say Cain, Joseph, Aaron, it is to note that there is no offer as a sacrifice. If we read the bible OT, we find that every where it is written to bring the first born for the sacrifice. That rule of first born applies for the sacrifice. And Aaron or Joseph or jacob or Esau were not going to be presented for sacrifice. Can you please see that point?
Whether they were going to be presented for sacrifice or not is not an issue here. The main point is that whenever the literal “firstborn” transgressed, or proved himself unworthy, or for some other reason was not favored by God, the right of the firstborn was taken away from him and transferred to the younger brother. For example, Reuben was the literal “firstborn” of Jacob; but because he committed some sins, that right was taken away from him and transferred to Joseph, who then inherited the right of the firstborn, and became the true firstborn (1 Chronicles 5:1). The same thing happened between Isaac and Ishmael. Ishmael was indeed the literal “firstborn,” but for reasons best known to Himself, God chose Isaac above Ishmael to inherit the right of the firstborn:
Genesis 21:

12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
That means that the right of the firstborn had been transferred from Ishmael to Isaac. Ishmael was no longer the “firstborn,” Isaac was.

zerinus

De Maria Dec 28, '07 7:27 am

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by planten (Post 3119018)

The bible says that it was Issac who was sacrificed. Quran does not say so. ....

That is the sequence of events as described in the Quran. Without naming any one, it tells us that it was the first born son who was sacrificed. That was Ishmael. Ishmael was also the promised son, as per verse 101 of Quran and also as per the bible OT. He was the promised son.

According to your dissertation, the Quran contradicts the Bible. Now we have ascertained in these discussions that:

1. There is no evidence that Mohammed actually spoke to an Angel or to Allah
2. That Uthman burned the original Quran and the substituted a new one which was put together by a committee.
3. The Muslims who claim the Bible is corrupt are contradicting the Quran.
4. And they have no evidence of another Bible which predates the Hebrew or Christian Scriptures and also preaches Islam.

So why should we believe the Quran over the Bible?

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria Dec 28, '07 7:35 am

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hamba2han (Post 3114892)
Christians need to make up their minds here.

If you accept that this hadith is true,

We don't accept the hadith as true. We present it as an example of yet another contradiction in your own religion.

Sincerely,

De Maria

meedo Dec 28, '07 7:47 am

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Catholic Dude (Post 3106637)
I have come across a few references in here that Muslims believe Abraham did NOT go to sacrifice Isaac, but rather Ishmael.

Is this true?


If it is then we have a clear problem before us because the historical/Scriptural testimony of BOTH Jews and Christians is that it was Isaac.


Hello,

Yes Muslims believe it was Ishmael who was about to be sacrificed. This is not mentioned in teh QWuran itself but in the authenticated Tradition of the Prophet Muhammed .


Actually, historically, it can be traced only to the arabs and not the jews that they have celebrated the survival of Abrahams son from sacrifice. Even going back before the times of the Moses . Christianity or Islam.


This anual celebration is called the Hajj. Arabs sacrificeat that season to commemorate the survival of Abrahams son from sacrifice.


Now if that was Isac it would be the jews who are celebrating . but its actually the arabs . The jews have many many celebrations of events, and it would be logical they would celebrate this fi it was related to them .

Logically and historically ( not quoting scriptures) it is Ishmael.


salam

inJESUS Dec 28, '07 8:41 am

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
[quote]
Quote:

Originally Posted by meedo (Post 3129511)
Actually, historically, it can be traced only to the arabs and not the jews that they have celebrated the survival of Abrahams son from sacrifice. Even going back before the times of the Moses . Christianity or Islam.

hello Meedo,

actually Jews do celebrate it:

As the Day of Remembrance, Rosh Hashanah (Jewish Holy day) recalls the story of Isaac's near-sacrifice, which Jewish tradition states occurred on the first of Tishri. In this biblical account, God commanded Isaac's father, Abraham, to sacrifice his only son as an offering. Abraham accepts God's command, builds an altar, and prepares to sacrifice his son to prove his obedience and faith in God. At the very last minute, an angel conveying God's wishes stopped Abraham from killing Isaac, and pointed out a ram caught by its horns in a nearby bush. The angel told Abraham to sacrifice the ram in place of Isaac -- Abraham had passed God's test.

As a result, God blessed Abraham. This story is recalled on Rosh Hashanah to remind Jews that submission before God is the way to attain God's mercy, and the truly righteous do not question God's will. They do as God commands and are rewarded for their faith.




Quote:

Now if that was Isac it would be the jews who are celebrating . but its actually the arabs . The jews have many many celebrations of events, and it would be logical they would celebrate this fi it was related to them
.they do.

Quote:

Logically and historically
logically, historically, Biblically, it is Isaac.

planten Dec 28, '07 9:20 am

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by zerinus (Post 3129094)
Actually that is not right. Esau was never approved by God, nor by his parents, because his actions were not right before them. When his mother was pregnant with him, God told her that she had twins in her womb, and that “the elder [Esau] shall serve the younger [Jacob]” (Genesis 25:23). Later on, Esau “despised his birthright,” and sold his birthright to Jacob for a “mess of potage” (Genesis 25:31–33; Hebrews 12:16). Therefore the birthright was no longer his. It had been passed on to Jacob by Esau’s own unrighteous choice.

Esau was not “cheated” of anything. He lost his birthright to Jacob through his own voluntary decision. He was no longer the “firstborn”. Later on God said through the prophets that He had “loved Jacob” but “hated Esau” (Malachi 1:2–3; Romans 9:13).




Whether they were going to be presented for sacrifice or not is not an issue here. The main point is that whenever the literal “firstborn” transgressed, or proved himself unworthy, or for some other reason was not favored by God, the right of the firstborn was taken away from him and transferred to the younger brother. For example, Reuben was the literal “firstborn” of Jacob; but because he committed some sins, that right was taken away from him and transferred to Joseph, who then inherited the right of the firstborn, and became the true firstborn (1 Chronicles 5:1). The same thing happened between Isaac and Ishmael. Ishmael was indeed the literal “firstborn,” but for reasons best known to Himself, God chose Isaac above Ishmael to inherit the right of the firstborn:
Genesis 21:

12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
That means that the right of the firstborn had been transferred from Ishmael to Isaac. Ishmael was no longer the “firstborn,” Isaac was.

zerinus

You have tried to present some points. Agreed. You have justified the act of cheating somehow in the bible OT. It is not difficult to do that. Bible as it stands now is clear that Abraham was going to sacrifice Issac.

But we Muslims have our own version of that important event. I doubt if the Jews or the christians celebrate that event of sacrifice every year world wide. So that is the end of it. The christians want everything good for themselves and do not want to admit that there is any one else also getting the blessings of the universal One God.

That is the blessings for Issac and no blessings for Ishmael. That Ishmael was disinherited. That their God is the only true God and nobody else has got any God. That only Jesus is sinless. All the other prophets are also sinful or sinners. Who will believe such ideas !!

The problem in the above post is not about the blessings. You have given it to Issac and denied it to Ishamel. But the topic is not about blessings. It is about sacrifice. I had presented the events described in the Quran in this thread that it was the first born Ishamel who was made ready for the sacrifice. That is very clear. Issac was not even born then.

The birth of Issac was due to the sacrifice of Ishamel by Abraham. God was pleased with Abraham and granted him another son from a barren wife. Had Sarai not offered Hagar to Abraham as a wife, Ishmael would not have been born. If Abraham had not pleased God by sacrificing Ishmael at the altar then Issac would not have been born. That is the understanding of the Muslims.
We have noted some serious weakness in the bible OT passage related to these events.

inJESUS Dec 28, '07 9:35 am

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
[quote]
Quote:

Originally Posted by planten (Post 3129931)
[size="1"]

But we Muslims have our own version of that important event. I doubt if the Jews or the christians celebrate that event of sacrifice every year world wide.

both do. Jews regarding Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac, and Christians celebrate Jesus'..this is a great sacrifice, not a ram.

Quote:

So that is the end of it. The christians want everything good for themselves and do not want to admit that there is any one else also getting the blessings of the universal One God.
the passage was not written by Christians.


Quote:

I had presented the events described in the Quran in this thread that it was the first born Ishamel who was made ready for the sacrifice. That is very clear. Issac was not even born then.
if things were so clear, you wouldn't have found the early Islamic scholars saying it was Isaac for exactly the opposite of what you're saying, that when God promised Abraham, He promised a MARRIED man to one woman, hence Hagar was not in the picture yet...When God promises a man, He does not wait for the man's wife to go fetch any maidservant....fetching any maidservent does not require neither God's interference nor His promise...and the Bible is clear it was sarah, not God and she lately felt bad about us.

Quote:

The birth of Issac was due to the sacrifice of Ishamel by Abraham. God was pleased with Abraham and granted him another son from a barren wife.
twisted logic am afraid. if God is pleased with a man, He grants his wife a son, not his wife's servant and then his wife ! as surely conflicts will arise, exactly what the Bible says.

Quote:

Had Sarai not offered Hagar to Abraham as a wife, Ishmael would not have been born.
see, it was Sarai, not God...God could have easily told Abraham to go fetch any woman who can be pregant..but God promised Abraham and his wife.

De Maria Dec 28, '07 12:18 pm

Re: Did Abraham go to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by planten (Post 3129931)
You have tried to present some points. Agreed. You have justified the act of cheating somehow in the bible OT.



Nope. You have accused God of cheating. But it is clear that Esau sold his birthright.

Quote:

It is not difficult to do that. Bible as it stands now is clear that Abraham was going to sacrifice Issac.
Correct. And since the Bible came before the Quran, the Bible is correct and the Quran is a corruption of the Word of God.

Quote:

But we Muslims have our own version of that important event.
Correct. A corrupt version. The one by the liar Mohammed.

Quote:

I doubt if the Jews or the christians celebrate that event of sacrifice every year world wide.
Yes, as already shown by InJesus.

Quote:

So that is the end of it. The christians want everything good for themselves and do not want to admit that there is any one else also getting the blessings of the universal One God.
That is not true. It is in fact Islam which says that only Muslims are blest:

1102. Abu Basra l-Ghifari reported that the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "I will ride to the Jews tomorrow. Do not give them the greeting first. If they greet you, then say, 'and on you.'"


1103. Abu Hurayra reported that the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "Do not give the People of the Book the greeting first. Force them to the narrowest part of the road." (Ibid.; bold and underline emphasis ours)
See the difference how they are to treat themselves:
452. It is a duty for one Muslim to greet another Muslim when he meets him
991. Abu Hurayra said, "I heard the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, say, 'The rights a Muslim has over another Muslim are five." He was asked, "What are they?" He replied, "When he meets him, he should greet him, When he gives him an invitation, he should accept. When he asks him for advice, he should give him good counsel. When he sneezes and praises Allah, he should wish him mercy. when he is ill, he should visit him. When he dies, he should accompany him." (Al-Adab al-Mufrad Al-Bukhari, XDI. Greetings; online source)

Quote:

That is the blessings for Issac and no blessings for Ishmael. That Ishmael was disinherited.
Ishmael was given his due. He was recognized as the illegitimate son of the unwed mother and therefore given only a small portion. This is the sign that we who are of Isaac are legitimate sons of God.

[quote] That their God is the only true God and nobody else has got any God. That only Jesus is sinless. All the other prophets are also sinful or sinners. Who will believe such ideas !![/quote[

I thought the Quran also taught those ideas. So I guess YOU DO. Apparently, for you, it is only wrong when Christians believe those things.

Quote:

The problem in the above post is not about the blessings. You have given it to Issac and denied it to Ishamel. But the topic is not about blessings. It is about sacrifice. I had presented the events described in the Quran in this thread that it was the first born Ishamel who was made ready for the sacrifice. That is very clear. Issac was not even born then.
But that is a corruption of the truth. The truth is in the Bible.

Quote:

The birth of Issac was due to the sacrifice of Ishamel by Abraham. God was pleased with Abraham and granted him another son from a barren wife. Had Sarai not offered Hagar to Abraham as a wife, Ishmael would not have been born. If Abraham had not pleased God by sacrificing Ishmael at the altar then Issac would not have been born. That is the understanding of the Muslims.
Which remains false, illogical and unreasonable no matter how many times you recount it.

Quote:

We have noted some serious weakness in the bible OT passage related to these events.
No. The weaknesses are in the entire Quran.

Sincerely,

De Maria


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