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-   -   Did Moses and Abraham really exist? (http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=302540)

ObeyHim Jan 17, '09 12:01 pm

Did Moses and Abraham really exist?
 
Last night I was in a conversation with an atheist friend of mine and he told me that Moses and Abraham were mythological figures who never existed. According to him, there is no proof outside the Bible for the existence of Moses. He said that over the years archeologists have discovered very complete Egyptian records from the time when Moses supposedly existed and that those records never mention anything about Moses or the Exodus. Also according to him, Abraham was at best a composite of two or three different people and other than the Bible and the Quran there is no proof to support his existence either. When I asked him where he got this information he said that he works with a Catholic deacon and it all came from him.

So, what does the Catholic church teach about the historical existence of Moses and Abraham? Is there any mention of them outside the Bible? If anyone can point me to some information on this it would be much appreciated.

Thank you all and God bless.

puzzleannie Jan 17, '09 12:08 pm

Re: Did Moses and Abraham really exist?
 
there is no archeological proof for the existence of whole hosts of people and rulers who existed in antiquity, and whose existence is firmly taught in history and anthropology courses today. what is your point? we know about these people mostly through testimony passed on through oral or written tradition and written down by later generations. These are called primary sources. The bible is one such primary source. The difference is that its writing is inspired by the Holy Spirit, which other ancient writings are not. But if you want to judge it as historical source material apply the same standards of provenance as you would to any other ancient document. This is my field, history specifically history of documents, so I can attest the Hebrew Scripture meets the requirements in spades.

derekohachey Jan 17, '09 1:33 pm

Re: Did Moses and Abraham really exist?
 
Here is an interesting historical perspective on the matter:

http://www.ensignmessage.com/archives/exodusscptcs.html

I don't know much about ancient Egypt and archeology, but I am wondering if there is someone who can comment on this?

Derek

Sir Anthony Jan 17, '09 2:09 pm

Re: Did Moses and Abraham really exist?
 
I am going to say yes they did exist, maybe not in the recorded form, but they did exist. The detail of Abraham's story at least correspond with the 20th-19th BC time frame. The Exodus is a bit harder because it is difficult to point an exact timeframe. I favor a late 15th century BC as there is a lot of political upheavals in Egypt that would allow an exodus. Some argue a late 13th-early 12th century BC mostly because there is a significant change in the pottery of ancient Canaan which could mean an invasion of Israelites. Truth is from the 12th-8th century BC there is a dearth of information found throughout the Eastern Med, even in Egypt. The interesting thing to note is that we have clay tablets of Mesopotamian laws and everything, but we do not have any such laws from Egypt, in fact all we know about Egyptian law is that what the pharoah said was law was law. Now, we know they had some kind of complex judicial system, just the written records are long gone and they didn't bother writing them on the walls. Lack of evidence doesn't mean something didn't happen or existed, like all mythology there is a historical basis, the literary traditions of the time did not give to complete fiction. Also, we need to remember that the great museums of the world have literally basements full of artifacts and texts from the last 100 years (think of the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark), that could have information to further help history (though some will certainly not help as the historical context is destroyed by their removal). Also, considering that the Near East has been a hot bed of contestation for the last 8000 years, I doubt significant remains will be intact as people recycle the stones and metals of the previous generation.

littleone Jan 17, '09 9:45 pm

Re: Did Moses and Abraham really exist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by puzzleannie (Post 4680760)
there is no archeological proof for the existence of whole hosts of people and rulers who existed in antiquity, and whose existence is firmly taught in history and anthropology courses today. what is your point? we know about these people mostly through testimony passed on through oral or written tradition and written down by later generations. These are called primary sources. The bible is one such primary source. The difference is that its writing is inspired by the Holy Spirit, which other ancient writings are not. But if you want to judge it as historical source material apply the same standards of provenance as you would to any other ancient document. This is my field, history specifically history of documents, so I can attest the Hebrew Scripture meets the requirements in spades.

I agree with the holy spirit leading however the other point in question and no proof....

Sorry but I must say that this is not true. I have videos proving that Moses DID lead a host of people across the Red sea. An Austrailian group studied the area of crossing and related how they could not have crossed in that place believed as being the one.
So the group got permission and moved to the north end(I think it was) and they found a huge pilar with inscriptians on it to the unknown god in praise of the crossing. They also dived in the same area of the Red sea and I have photos of chareots wheels skeletons of horses, bodies, spears and other impliments in rows and rows.
They moved over to the other side of the sea and there they found the other huge pillar that was erected in response to their crossing.

I have videos of other points of biblical interest not believed by so called professors as well, and although the so called anthropologists, archiologists and Egyptiologists say "no" there is proof. I have one of the parts of Mt Sini where it is cordened off and it shows the burned areas.
I have a video / DVD recorder which I am using to record these when I get it set up.

If you get a chance go to the "ethnical" groups I have and their stories of where they come from root back to Israel and the exodus. They can have no reasono to lie as our people don't.

Godbless

puzzleannie Jan 18, '09 8:19 pm

Re: Did Moses and Abraham really exist?
 
thank you littleone for your input those videos must be something to see, but I don't see the relevance to my reply

littleone Jan 19, '09 12:22 am

Re: Did Moses and Abraham really exist?
 
[quote=puzzleannie;4680760]there is no archeological proof for the existence of whole hosts of people and rulers who existed in antiquity,
If I read you right you are saying that archiology, anthropology, Egyptiology and others say that there is NO proof of large hosts of people who may have exited from one point to another and caused the death of children armys and or others by the word of their "god".

What I am saying is that, it does not enter the reality (not truth), of Egypt / anthrop / archiology to have studients or the general people live by a strong historical and religious belief that the over all education system does not govern what is and what is not acceptable in it's system.
That is the reason why the system will not accept the "truth". It is not that it does not have the truth at it's disposal, but more so that the "truth does not suit the systemic power and control or the systemic nature of the education system itself, which to function as is needed, must have all control over the theorys relating in the framework of the subjects it teaches.

Especially this is questionable by the system if the student believes, and is governed by principals of spiritual direction leading to a point away from the governing of the education system. And the persons lives by a belief from a bible produced by a "god" who states His point of reasoning as to why large populations other than ones chosen by a "God" as his own, should be disposed of, if that be God's will for His purpose.
Once again I believe that the system can have the information but will not believe it for it's own reasons of moving away from knowledge relating to an unknown "God"


Hope that is'nt tooooo fare away at least might you understand a little.
Godbless.

littleone Jan 19, '09 1:06 am

Re: Did Moses and Abraham really exist?
 
The next point is this.
The ethnic group in New Zealand are the Maori race.
The Europeans who landed in New Zealand,came to New Zealand in the 1700s.
Now the Maori or ethnic group who lived here at that time could not speak English. However when able to understand each other a Maori woman (elder) told a lawyer from England (1760s) all about the history of the Maori people.

This is an abreviated version.
She related how they were a tribe of people who were enslaved by a king who made them create large tombs which were in the forms of steps. Another king came who made them make straight up tombs. Their canoes were of a turned up shape with a certain kind of mast and sail more like flax.
Some time later a man came and spoke to the king, he lead them out of the place they were in, in captivity. Over a long period they reached a place where they lived.

They were a fighting people who argued between themselves. This caused them to break up and one group left for the north through what we call Turkey, Germany, the fringes of Russia and east to the fringes of China sailing through the Japanese coast, India and the Pacific Islands landing in New Zealand.
As I said the woman related this information to a lawyer . There are two books one still in New Zealand and the other in the Cairo museum.
The information relates to Moses the 12 tribes and the exodus.
Another point is that the old woman could not have known about this herself, for she never went out of New Zealand, and there is such a long distance between NZ and Isreal.

But she was told it in folklaw. One book is in Cairo and the other in New Zealand.
Most of the ethnic groups world wide have these stories that are brought down from age to age.

Godbless

Sam_777 Jan 19, '09 2:07 am

Re: Did Moses and Abraham really exist?
 
Chariot wheels found at the bottom of the Red Sea:

http://www.arkdiscovery.com/exwheel.JPG
http://www.arkdiscovery.com/exwheel2.JPG

http://www.arkdiscovery.com/chariotwheel.gif
http://www.arkdiscovery.com/exwheel4.JPG
http://catchthefire.com.au/blog/wp-c.../2008/02/1.jpg
http://catchthefire.com.au/blog/wp-c.../2008/02/5.jpg
http://catchthefire.com.au/blog/wp-c.../2008/02/3.jpg

More here:
http://www.arkdiscovery.com/red_sea_crossing.htm

tobinatorstark Jan 19, '09 10:25 am

Re: Did Moses and Abraham really exist?
 
Yes Moses and Abraham really did exist the Bible is proof of it and if you have a Bible Chronology like my Douay-Rheims does, it also proves they existed.

Ruthie Jan 19, '09 2:44 pm

Re: Did Moses and Abraham really exist?
 
Littleone and Sam seem to be giving weight to the amazing claims of the late Ron Wyatt, who claimed to have found a host of things that many, many reputable archeologists, searching for years, have failed to find. Such as: the Ark of the Covenant; chariot wheels and relics from the Red Sea; the site of Sodom and Gomorrah, complete with ruins; Noah's Ark; the site of the Crucifixion (where Jesus' blood - supposedly tested and found to have only 24 chromosomes - ran down through a crack to the cave where the Ark was), and the actual tablets of the 10 Commandments.

None of these "artifacts" have wound up in reputable museums. No independent scientists have comfirmed any of the tests, due to supposed circumstances any conspiracy theorist would love. Many people associated with Wyatt have refuted him.

I don't buy in to conspiracy theories. I go for facts. The Church has allowed independent scientists access, for instance, to the Shroud of Turin, and has not tried to cover up any negative results. Wyatt hasn't been that open.

Even his fellow Creationists, who would be delighted by credible scientific discoveries to prove the literal truth of the Bible (as would I!) , have de-bunked Wyatt. A google search for "ron wyatt" ark will turn several of them up. Warning: at least one of them is virulently anti-Catholic.

Here's Wikipedia.

Got to go to MIL's for dinner...

God bless us all with truth,

Ruthie

littleone Jan 19, '09 11:25 pm

Re: Did Moses and Abraham really exist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruthie (Post 4689648)
Littleone and Sam seem to be giving weight to the amazing claims of the late Ron Wyatt, who claimed to have found a host of things that many, many reputable archeologists, searching for years, have failed to find. Such as: the Ark of the Covenant; chariot wheels and relics from the Red Sea; the site of Sodom and Gomorrah, complete with ruins; Noah's Ark; the site of the Crucifixion (where Jesus' blood - supposedly tested and found to have only 24 chromosomes - ran down through a crack to the cave where the Ark was), and the actual tablets of the 10 Commandments.

None of these "artifacts" have wound up in reputable museums. No independent scientists have comfirmed any of the tests, due to supposed circumstances any conspiracy theorist would love. Many people associated with Wyatt have refuted him.

I don't buy in to conspiracy theories. I go for facts. The Church has allowed independent scientists access, for instance, to the Shroud of Turin, and has not tried to cover up any negative results. Wyatt hasn't been that open.

Even his fellow Creationists, who would be delighted by credible scientific discoveries to prove the literal truth of the Bible (as would I!) , have de-bunked Wyatt. A google search for "ron wyatt" ark will turn several of them up. Warning: at least one of them is virulently anti-Catholic.

Here's Wikipedia.

Got to go to MIL's for dinner...

God bless us all with truth,

Ruthie

Are you sayingthat all Ron found is incorrect? what of the photos the finding of the crossing etc?

Ruthie Jan 20, '09 2:34 pm

Re: Did Moses and Abraham really exist?
 
Quote:

Are you saying that all Ron found is incorrect? what of the photos the finding of the crossing etc?
I am no expert on Ron Wyatt.

His findings have been debunked by several people and organizations. He was SDA, and they have debunked him as well. Two of the organizations that have debunked him are firm supporters of Biblical literacy, and would rejoice in any findings that prove the Bible is true. But they insist on real scientific proof. Here they are.

http://www.tccsa.tc/articles/wyatt.html
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v21/i2/ark.asp

Expeditions have gone to the sites where he claims to have found these things, and can't find them. Scientific test results that supposedly prove his claims have mysteriously "disappeared." One of Wyatt's "scientific instruments" was a fancy version of a dowsing rod.

He was not an archeologist; he was a nurse. He never had a permit of any sort from Israel to perform archeological digs.

More info here.

http://www.isitso.org/guide/wyatt.html

http://www.fishnet.us/cim/reports/wyatt.txt

Hope this helps,

Ruthie

Sir Anthony Jan 20, '09 3:15 pm

Re: Did Moses and Abraham really exist?
 
You know the talk about Ron Wyatt reminds me of a story of my paleo professor Dr. Bonem once told on a field trip. The Glen Rose area of Texas has layers of Cretaceous rocks, where one of those layers have dinosaur tracks, some of them are pretty ambigious looking tracks, not too far away from is the Creation Institute, perhaps the best known of the Creation Science centers. Anyhow, she relies the story about how the head scientist there took a group down to the river where the tracks were and goes on this great speech about how this is proof man and dinosaur walked together. Then as they are walking along, he finds a trilobite (an arthropod that went extinct some 150 million years before the dinosaurs did) and he pulls it up and says "look dinosaurs, man, and trilobites living all at the same time." One of the folks took a closer look at the trilobite and saw that there were catalog markings on it from the University of Cinncinati. Morale of the story, some people are so hard up to believe in something that they doctor evidence to prove its existence. Also on Wyatt and David Rohl and a lot of these other pseudo-archaeologists out there, they seem to find the artifacts rather quickly. I would think Wyatt would have been more respectable if he would have focused on the Red Sea crossing and proving it, but he kept jumping around saying he found the Holy Grail, the Ark of the Convenant, and so on. Usually this is a sign that his claims are built on a house of sand.

Notwithstanding, I do believe in the existence of Moses and Abraham, most scholar don't doubt the existence of historical figures like Sargon even though most of what we have is essentially a legendary tale about him being born, put in a basket, sent down the river, adopted and so on, but they doubt Abraham and Moses because.... If critics were only as critical as other ancient text as they are with the Bible, who knows what the history books would look like, essentially our entire ancient history about kings and queens would be reduced and all we can say for certain is that they traded for copper, made funny headdresses, and planned and developed cities and other stuff.

Jossy Jan 21, '09 5:45 pm

Re: Did Moses and Abraham really exist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by littleone (Post 4691461)
Are you sayingthat all Ron found is incorrect? what of the photos the finding of the crossing etc?

[QUOTE =littleone]
Yes, I would also like to know how you can justify the actual
pictures that he has put on this program.
Maybe, he has his reasons for not allowing any scientists
to go to this site's and remove all this stuff because, then they
will destory everything.
If this things are linked to God then maybe God is in charge
here. Maybe God does not want people to muddle up this
ruins, etc. because people nowadays are trying to find ways
to make everyone believe that God does not exist.
Please, do not test the word of God (BIBLE).
(QUOTE)


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