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-   -   Does God love the Devil? (http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=386040)

hilarycotter Oct 11, '09 4:22 pm

Does God love the Devil?
 
My 7 yo son asked me this and I did not have an answer for him.

I suspect not. I told him I would ask here as there are much smarter people than I who hang out here:)

Vimy Ridge Oct 11, '09 4:25 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
I guess would be, no.

Matthias123 Oct 11, '09 4:29 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
God does love Lucfier, as he loves all his creatures, but because of his choice he is now in suffering Hell demonstrating the glory of Divine Justice.

Vimy Ridge Oct 11, '09 4:41 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthias123 (Post 5809998)
God does love Lucfier, as he loves all his creatures, but because of his choice he is now in suffering Hell demonstrating the glory of Divine Justice.

I have a Catholic book called 'His Time Is Short: The Devil And His Agenda' and it points out that the Devil and his angels are on earth, they are not in hell yet.

Matthias123 Oct 11, '09 4:44 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Vimy Ridge (Post 5810030)
I have a Catholic book called 'His Time Is Short: The Devil And His Agenda' and it points out that the Devil and his angels are on earth, they are not in hell yet.

I disagree -- they are in Hell, yet they can roam the earth. I am not certain how they can do this though.

Vimy Ridge Oct 11, '09 4:54 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthias123 (Post 5810043)
I disagree -- they are in Hell, yet they can roam the earth. I am not certain how they can do this though.

According to the book the Devil is in the "state" or "condition" of hell, as distinguished from the "place" of hell.

catholic1seeks Oct 11, '09 4:57 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Vimy Ridge (Post 5810070)
According to the book the Devil is in the "state" or "condition" of hell, as distinguished from the "place" of hell.

I think this makes more sense anyways... for if hell were a place it would mean that God created it...(God does not create evil)..

fulbert4605 Oct 11, '09 5:07 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by catholic1seeks (Post 5810088)
I think this makes more sense anyways... for if hell were a place it would mean that God created it...(God does not create evil)..

You are correct in that God does not know evil. However, God did create Hell. The fallen angels demanded it. It is a perverted state to want to be in pain, yes. Sort of like the misguided people yet on earth who when angry resort to self-inflicted wounds.

God does love the Devil in the Christian sense. God does not like the Devil's sins, but He does love the Devil. Hate the sin, not the sinner.

Vimy Ridge Oct 11, '09 5:12 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by catholic1seeks (Post 5810088)
I think this makes more sense anyways... for if hell were a place it would mean that God created it...(God does not create evil)..

It seems that hell is also a place and that it will be the final destination for the devil and his angels, according to tradition. Evil is the absence of good, so I don't think it can be created. Hell must be the absence of all that is good.

Areopagite Oct 11, '09 5:43 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Depends on what you mean by "love." Here are some different ways to look at it (and these are somewhat ad lib ... and thus probably might be off here and there):

Love, in this case, could mean ...

Love: Wanting what's best for someone:
Now, for humans and angels, the best thing they could achieve would be heaven. However, the devil has eternally rejected heaven, and God therefore does not work for what is best for him, and thus in that sense, God does not love the devil. However, even though, in consideration of what the devil essentially is (an angel), heaven would be the best place for him ... in another sense, heaven would not be the best place for him. This is because his will has turned against heaven, and thrusting heaven upon an unwilling creature would be worse than hell (the sense of shame and unworthiness would be overwhelming ... this is according to St. Catherine of Siena). Thus, in another sense, because God withholds heaven from the devil and does so because it is the best thing for him (according to what he has chosen ... not according to his essence), God loves the devil.

Love: Desiring something as a means to an end:
It is natural to love things if they provide you with the means to achieve a more ultimate end. However, we should not use people in this way (and thus we should not love people in this way). Also, we likewise hate things that impede our efforts to attain a more ultimate end. God can be said to hate the devil in this way, since the devil tries to impede His efforts to save souls. On the other hand, it's God's plan to bring good out of evil. I read in a book about St. John Vianney, and during an exorcism of a woman, the devil confessed through the woman: “God makes use of demons to revive the faith . . . . Must I then serve as an instrument to instruct men, I who am raging to damn them?” And perhaps because of this, because God can mysteriously use demons to bring about salvation, God could be said to love the devil.

There is also the thing, of course, that God loves all being (that is, all things that exist). And since the devil exists, God loves him.

So, it depends what you mean by love. In some sense, God hates the devil. In another sense, God loves the devil. I hope that made any sense whatsoever. I hope I didn't utter heresy. Pretty sure I didn't.

jimcintosh Oct 11, '09 6:00 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Areopagite (Post 5810233)
There is also the thing, of course, that God loves all being (that is, all things that exist). And since the devil exists, God loves him.

Exactly. God loves Judas. God loves Adolph Hitler. God loves Osama bin Laden. God loves Stalin. God loves both George W. Bush and Barack Obama. God loves you and me, sinners though we might be. God is love (1 Jn 4:8). To exist to be deeply loved by God "as if there were no other".

This does not mean that God approves of what we do. This does not mean that we do not stray. It only means that God's love is limitless.

hilarycotter Oct 11, '09 7:18 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Great answers - thanks all.

Areopagite, I think you nailed it though:)

I did not realize that Satan eternally rejected God.

jkiernan56 Oct 11, '09 7:39 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
I would like to add that God definitely loves the Devil by his sheer existence - that God willed and created him. The question really should be - is the Devil able to receive or give love? Is anyone in the "state" or "place" of HELL able to love at all? I think by definition, that by nature a person in the "state" or "place" of hell is not able to love or receive love. Hell is an absolute rejection of Love. And to be in a state or place of not being able to give or receive love, is to be in a state or place of hell.

God loves the Devil - but the Devil is not able to Love God. That is Hell.

GrahamAPhone Oct 11, '09 8:32 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
I dont think hell is a 'place'
its more of just a state completely away from God's love :(
sad

PattiDay Oct 12, '09 9:35 am

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
I'm not sure. As others have said: hate the sin, love the sinner. Maybe that's the better answer for a seven year old who has reached the age of reason and is considering the concept of the devil and sin, and love and forgiveness. He's really thinking isn't he? God bless him. What a wonderful opportunity for you and he to have a conversation about what he's learning. I think it was very brave of you to tell him that you don't have all the answers but will seek answers and share them with him.

rinnie Oct 12, '09 9:39 am

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
My answer would be NO. Here is why the devil is evil. God hates evil. The devil is full of les.God hates lies. No God could never love evil.

liquidpele Oct 12, '09 10:05 am

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rinnie (Post 5812521)
My answer would be NO. Here is why the devil is evil. God hates evil. The devil is full of les.God hates lies. No God could never love evil.

This seems counter to everything I keep hearing Catholics say... "God is love" etc etc.
A God that would hate seems more human than God.

rinnie Oct 12, '09 10:40 am

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by liquidpele (Post 5812631)
This seems counter to everything I keep hearing Catholics say... "God is love" etc etc.
A God that would hate seems more human than God.

Why would you say that. And why would you deny God being human. God is all things. God from God light from light true God from True God.

By the power of the HS he became Man. God hates evil and sin. Evil and sin are nothing at all like God. If you choose evil and sin you do not choose God and you are not of God.

What would you expect a God full of goodness to embrace evil and sin?

liquidpele Oct 12, '09 10:44 am

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rinnie (Post 5812804)
Why would you say that. And why would you deny God being human. God is all things. God from God light from light true God from True God.

By the power of the HS he became Man. God hates evil and sin. Evil and sin are nothing at all like God. If you choose evil and sin you do not choose God and you are not of God.

What would you expect a God full of goodness to embrace evil and sin?

If God is human, why worship him? I mean, even if he's powerful, if he's essentially human of mind then what's the big deal? Obama is powerful right now, do you worship him too?

I wouldn't expect a God to embrace evil and sin, but I wouldn't expect him to Hate either. If your little boy lied to you, would you hate him? I find the notion of God hating simply ridiculous... but I classify hate as something you would consider sin. It's an emotion of pure negativity. In this respect, you either have a God that is all good, or a god that is all things, but you can't have both because a God that can hate is not all good and a God that cannot hate is not all things.

rinnie Oct 12, '09 10:58 am

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by liquidpele (Post 5812830)
If God is human, why worship him? I mean, even if he's powerful, if he's essentially human of mind then what's the big deal? Obama is powerful right now, do you worship him too?

I wouldn't expect a God to embrace evil and sin, but I wouldn't expect him to Hate either. If your little boy lied to you, would you hate him? I find the notion of God hating simply ridiculous... but I classify hate as something you would consider sin. It's an emotion of pure negativity. In this respect, you either have a God that is all good, or a god that is all things, but you can't have both because a God that can hate is not all good and a God that cannot hate is not all things.

God is human and Divine. Do you reject that Jesus Christ was both human and divine. By the power of the HS he became Man. Is Obama divine I think not.

What would you expect God to do then love evil and sin? No I would not hate my Child for a lie but I would hate the lie. And would hate the sin.

Do you think that God accepts and loves the devil? That is unreal. Why then in Eph 4:27 does God tell us do not leave room for the devil. Why does God tell us to not be deceived by the evil one. Why does God tell us to stay in the light and out of the darknesss. The darkness is the devil, the darkness is evil. But God tells us to live as children of the light for light prodices every kind of goodness and righteousness and Trurth. Learn what is pleasing to God. take no part in the fruitness of darkness rather expose them.

liquidpele Oct 12, '09 11:11 am

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rinnie (Post 5812893)
God is human and Divine. Do you reject that Jesus Christ was both human and divine. By the power of the HS he became Man. Is Obama divine I think not.

What would you expect God to do then love evil and sin? No I would not hate my Child for a lie but I would hate the lie. And would hate the sin.

Do you think that God accepts and loves the devil? That is unreal. Why then in Eph 4:27 does God tell us do not leave room for the devil. Why does God tell us to not be deceived by the evil one. Why does God tell us to stay in the light and out of the darknesss. The darkness is the devil, the darkness is evil. But God tells us to live as children of the light for light prodices every kind of goodness and righteousness and Trurth. Learn what is pleasing to God. take no part in the fruitness of darkness rather expose them.

You just made my point... God might not love the evil and sin, but to hate another sentient being is not an attribute I would attach to God. Unless you think the devil is not sentient and is just a personification of the evils of the world, which honestly makes more sense anyway.

rinnie Oct 12, '09 11:14 am

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Here is my proof to all of my Christian Brothers and Sister out there.

Think back to you Baptism Promises. Do you reject satan and all of his empty promises. If God loved the devil he would not tell us to reject him. God hates lies, God hates sin, and God hates evil. Anyone who participates in this and does not repent and ask for forgiveness will never see the kingdom of heaven.

God would never tell us to reject someone he loves!:D

jkiernan56 Oct 12, '09 4:33 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by liquidpele (Post 5812830)

I wouldn't expect a God to embrace evil and sin, but I wouldn't expect him to Hate either. If your little boy lied to you, would you hate him? I find the notion of God hating simply ridiculous...

You find the notion of God hating simply ridiculous huh? Thats because you don't understand the difference between an action and the person doing an action. They are not the same thing.

liquidpele Oct 12, '09 4:37 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jkiernan56 (Post 5814418)
You find the notion of God hating simply ridiculous huh? Thats because you don't understand the difference between an action and the person doing an action. They are not the same thing.

Wait, are you suggesting that because God does it it's okay? Can you elaborate a little?

jkiernan56 Oct 12, '09 5:02 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by liquidpele (Post 5814436)
Wait, are you suggesting that because God does it it's okay? Can you elaborate a little?

Yes, God does HATE but not in an evil way. There is a good kind of hate. There is an evil kind of hate. If you need me to explain more the difference, let me know.

Regarding distinguising between an action and a person, we can use this CA messaging as an example. You wrote a CA response and sent it to me here on this forum. Can you distinguish between the action (verb) and the person (pronoun)? God hates some actions and loves others. God always LOVES the person doing the actions, but not necessarily the actions if they are not good and cause harm to self or others.

liquidpele Oct 12, '09 5:18 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jkiernan56 (Post 5814555)
Yes, God does HATE but not in an evil way. There is a good kind of hate. There is an evil kind of hate. If you need me to explain more the difference, let me know.

I'm curious how you distinguish the two and when you would find them appropriate.

jkiernan56 Oct 12, '09 5:54 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by liquidpele (Post 5814609)
I'm curious how you distinguish the two and when you would find them appropriate.

How would I distinguish between a good kind of hate and an evil kind of hate? I will give you two examples, but it hardly encompasses the subject.

Good kind of hate - seeing an injustice done against someone you know or love and performing actions to eradicate that injustice.

Evil kind of hate - being jealous of someone who has something you don't have and harboring resentment or even go as far as to MURDER the person you are jealous of

liquidpele Oct 12, '09 6:00 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jkiernan56 (Post 5814739)
How would I distinguish between a good kind of hate and an evil kind of hate? I will give you two examples, but it hardly encompasses the subject.

Good kind of hate - seeing an injustice done against someone you know or love and performing actions to eradicate that injustice.

Evil kind of hate - being jealous of someone who has something you don't have and harboring resentment or even go as far as to MURDER the person you are jealous of

Why would the first thing be hate? Why would it not be justice, love, discipline, or a combination of those?

jkiernan56 Oct 12, '09 6:17 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by liquidpele (Post 5814759)
Why would the first thing be hate? Why would it not be justice, love, discipline, or a combination of those?

Actually every one of those characteristics has a relationship to Love. Hate means nothing but in reference and relationship to Love. So while a person may do actions to erradicate injustice, the injustice is what is Hated. That is a good kind of hatred. The injustice is not loved. If the injustice were never committed, there would be no need to act to irradicate it. You asked me to give an example of a good hate. In my universe, hating injustice is still a good thing. And out of hate for injustice and love for the good (see - both can be in play at the same time) a person can perform actions to irradicate injustice.

In a subjective relativistic world where anything can be anything, you are right - black can be white and up can be down - depending on your reference point.

liquidpele Oct 12, '09 8:22 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jkiernan56 (Post 5814820)
Actually every one of those characteristics has a relationship to Love. Hate means nothing but in reference and relationship to Love. So while a person may do actions to erradicate injustice, the injustice is what is Hated. That is a good kind of hatred. The injustice is not loved. If the injustice were never committed, there would be no need to act to irradicate it. You asked me to give an example of a good hate. In my universe, hating injustice is still a good thing. And out of hate for injustice and love for the good (see - both can be in play at the same time) a person can perform actions to irradicate injustice.

In a subjective relativistic world where anything can be anything, you are right - black can be white and up can be down - depending on your reference point.

You seem to just be redefining actions based on love as a "good hate"... seems redundant and confusing.

jkiernan56 Oct 12, '09 8:35 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by liquidpele (Post 5815343)
You seem to just be redefining actions based on love as a "good hate"... seems redundant and confusing.

You've got that right - hating injustice and working to erradicate it is an example of "good hate".

If someone plunged a knife in your back to do you harm, I think I could reasonably conclude which one of the two (Love or Hate) would spring up within you. Or are you going to give me some subjective relativistic nonsense whereby anything can be true depending on one's particular reference point:?

liquidpele Oct 12, '09 8:52 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jkiernan56 (Post 5815392)
You've got that right - hating injustice and working to erradicate it is an example of "good hate".

If someone put a knife in your back, I think I could reasonably conclude which one of the two (Love or Hate) would spring up within you. Or are you going to give me some subjective relativistic nonsense whereby nothing has any meaning depending on one's reference point:?

Subjectivity means a lot though... lets say a guy puts a knife to my back and wants my wallet... do I hate him? Well... he's risking serious jail time over a wallet with maybe $20 in it. Why? He's probably broke, maybe homeless, perhaps with a bad addiction... maybe he's even trying to feed his kids the only way he still can because he's out of work. Maybe he's just lazy and wants a sandwich but his violence stems from a poor childhood. Besides, what I would personally feel is irrelevant. We're not talking about a human, we're talking about God.

Then again, maybe you're right. God sure did hate a lot in the OT.

mandateman Oct 12, '09 11:35 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
God loves all he created. Devils were created with concrete wills capable of one choice. Devils are the angels that made that one choice to reject love and reverence and obedience to God. But they are still used by God.

God allows devils to tempt his creation. He uses the devils to try his holy ones with fire. He uses them to educate the saint and mystic in Gods ways. He alone decides to what degree an devil can have power over you.

He allows evil to exist because God alone can draw good out of evil. For the good of the souls that he will help because of sin he permits it.

God alone decides what sin that is committed in our minds can become manifest in reality. "Trustful surrender to Divine Providence."

Devils sometime assist someone who is skating on thin ice to see the reality of what life could be like without change. Hell is Gods last mercy to the condemned. Because the punishments are not equal in contrast to life that the joys of heaven are in contrast to the joys of life. People who are lost forever get what they have wanted. Hell is a place of eternal life without God or any of the mercies of God. God is love there can only be hate remaining. God is kindness there can only be unkindness and cruelty. God is perfect knowledge and order, there can only be insanity etc.

Areopagite Oct 12, '09 11:40 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by liquidpele (Post 5812631)
This seems counter to everything I keep hearing Catholics say... "God is love" etc etc.
A God that would hate seems more human than God.

Once again, it depends what you mean be "love" and "hate." Both words can refer to emotional inclinations (e.g. I love chocolate, I hate soup). But love, in the volitional sense (i.e. pertaining to the will), can mean "seeking what is best for the thing loved." As I said in a previous post, God can be said to hate the devil insofar as He does not seek the devil's ultimate good (which would be heaven, since the angels were meant for being in heaven) and this is because the devil has eternally refused heaven. However, in another sense, God can be said to love the devil as He seeks what is best for the devil given the devil's state ... that is, Hell is now the best place for the devil given what he has chosen (though it is not natural to his angelic nature) because it would be harmful for guilty person to enter into eternal happiness (which I explained before).

I go into this further in the previous post.

Also, hate is not necessarily the opposite of love. It depends what you mean by "opposite." If you mean hate is the negation of love, I don't think this is true (correct me if I'm wrong). A rock doesn't love me, but it doesn't hate me either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rinnie (Post 5812521)
My answer would be NO. Here is why the devil is evil. God hates evil. The devil is full of les.God hates lies. No God could never love evil.

This does not imply that the devil is ontologically evil. Ontological evil does not exist. God loves all beings, and thus loves the devil in that sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by liquidpele (Post 5812943)
You just made my point... God might not love the evil and sin, but to hate another sentient being is not an attribute I would attach to God. Unless you think the devil is not sentient and is just a personification of the evils of the world, which honestly makes more sense anyway.

The devil indeed exists and he is rational ("sentient" technically means "having senses" and doesn't have to do with having an intellect ... at least, that's the traditional definition, before some ignoramus began using it differently ... sorry, it's a touchy subject)

Quote:

Originally Posted by liquidpele (Post 5815441)
Subjectivity means a lot though... lets say a guy puts a knife to my back and wants my wallet... do I hate him? Well... he's risking serious jail time over a wallet with maybe $20 in it. Why? He's probably broke, maybe homeless, perhaps with a bad addiction... maybe he's even trying to feed his kids the only way he still can because he's out of work. Maybe he's just lazy and wants a sandwich but his violence stems from a poor childhood. Besides, what I would personally feel is irrelevant. We're not talking about a human, we're talking about God.

It's true that someone could possibly so emotionally messed up that they are not responsible for their actions. We should never hate anyone no matter what ... insofar as we shouldn't want what's worst for them (especially, we shouldn't want them to go to hell).

Quote:

Originally Posted by liquidpele (Post 5815441)
Then again, maybe you're right. God sure did hate a lot in the OT.

I think this is true, considering the choice of usage of the word "hate." The Psalms do say "God hates those who do evil" which I think is awesome.:D (although, I'm screwed)

But in this sense, as I explained in my last post, this is referring to another kind of hate. You can be said to hate something if you fight it because it stands in the way of some goal. Hence, anything you fight because it impedes you can be considered a kind of "hate." You may still seek what's best for the object of your hatred (that is, you may still want a person to go to heaven, even if you're trying to shoot him). Thus, sinners are people who seek to frustrate God's plan and bring souls (esp. their own souls) to hell. Thus, since they oppose God's goal, God hates them. God hates the devil in that sense too.

Usually, we don't talk about God's hate in that sense because we want to emphasize God's love in the sense that He wants everyone to go to heaven. In fact, we emphasis that so much, that confusion arises when we read in the Psalms that "God hates those who do evil." Seldom is this clarified, and it took many years searching the tomes of Scholastic philosophy for me to find the answer (and I hope that is the answer ... but men of higher wisdom, correct me if I'm wrong). But no matter. Did that make sense?

jimcintosh Oct 13, '09 4:18 am

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
The opposite of love is not hate. It is indifference.

In any case, Jesus told us that we should love our enemies. Would God do less? To exist is to be deeply loved by God.

rinnie Oct 13, '09 5:28 am

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
God created the angels and did indeed love them. SO I was wrong to say the God hates the devil. What I should have said is no God does not hate the devil the devil hates God.

But God does hate the evil the devil does, and indeed hates what the devil has become. So while he loved him in the beginning God hates who he has become and what he has become. And that is evil.

The devil made his choice to become what he has. THe devil can and never will turn back. So while God does not hate him, he hates the evil he spreads and the evil works he does.

So sorry guys. I was wrong:blush:

rinnie Oct 13, '09 7:18 am

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
And being that the devil is nothing but evil God will have no part of the devil. And God does not want us to either. God created the devil for goodness, but because the devil had free-will he choose to reject the goodness and choose evil. So the devil made his choice to be separate from God for all eternity. It was his choice not Gods.

jkiernan56 Oct 13, '09 2:46 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by liquidpele (Post 5815441)
Subjectivity means a lot though... lets say a guy puts a knife to my back and wants my wallet... do I hate him? Well... he's risking serious jail time over a wallet with maybe $20 in it. Why? He's probably broke, maybe homeless, perhaps with a bad addiction... maybe he's even trying to feed his kids the only way he still can because he's out of work. Maybe he's just lazy and wants a sandwich but his violence stems from a poor childhood. Besides, what I would personally feel is irrelevant. We're not talking about a human, we're talking about God.

Then again, maybe you're right. God sure did hate a lot in the OT.

You reeled the tape back further than the example I gave. I am totally on the same page with you if the scenario started BEFORE he stuck the knife in you like a pig. But the action of him actually sticking you is not something you would give him a warm hug for doing to you.

So, lets get real here. Yes we are talking about God. But I would like to engage you first on the human level ... see if you and i can even agree about anything on this level about love and hate ... before we make the leap to God.

Do you really think that human beings do not HATE all forms of injustice? I know all of them don't, but most do. Obviously there are some who are not troubled with injustice ... or don't see that what they are doing is unjust to others... like the planes that flew into the Twin Towers on 9/11. Most sane people HATED THIS ACTION performed by some extremist Muslims. Do you not agree that human beings can love what is good and hate what is not good? Or is the word "Good" not in your vocabulary? I haven't even gotten to God yet. I just want to see if we are on the same page ... on the human level about love and hate before we even continue this discussion ... that is if you care to.

Now if you are truly a relativist, I will find out whether Good is also a moving target for you that can mean anything you like .. .depending on one's changing reference point. Are you one of those that say that "up" to me could mean "down" to someone else? lol

CatholicZ09 Oct 13, '09 2:50 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Um, where did "Love the sinner, hate the sin" come from anyways? Just wanted to ask.

jkiernan56 Oct 13, '09 3:05 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Areopagite (Post 5815786)

I think this is true, considering the choice of usage of the word "hate." The Psalms do say "God hates those who do evil" which I think is awesome.:D (although, I'm screwed)


Actually, putting this verse in context with the rest of scripture, I'm sure a biblical scholar would back me up that "God hates the evil that others do and loves those who do the evil."

Areopagite Oct 13, '09 7:21 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jkiernan56 (Post 5818500)
Actually, putting this verse in context with the rest of scripture, I'm sure a biblical scholar would back me up that "God hates the evil that others do and loves those who do the evil."

Well, cite a source.

In any case, the Psalm 5:5 says "God hates all those who do evil" or "God hates evildoer" or something to that effect. So, does God hate sinners in some sense? Yes. The Psalms say that. And I'm sure it "hate" in the sense of "fighting against those who try to impede one's goal" or something to that effect.

People are too willing to commit to an absolute usage of the word "hate" when there are many usages of the word. There isn't just one. Does anyone disagree with that?

rinnie Oct 14, '09 4:26 am

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CatholicZ09 (Post 5818452)
Um, where did "Love the sinner, hate the sin" come from anyways? Just wanted to ask.

It came from Jesus. Its all through the bible. Like when you someone wacks you in the right cheek give them the left. Love those who hate you, if you only love those who love you how hard is that. You know etc.

But John Paul ll was the one who I remember saying it that way. Love the sinner hate the sin. I recall him for sure saying it went it came to gay people. and he used it many other times. But it came from Jesus.:D

rinnie Oct 14, '09 4:34 am

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Areopagite (Post 5819401)
Well, cite a source.

In any case, the Psalm 5:5 says "God hates all those who do evil" or "God hates evildoer" or something to that effect. So, does God hate sinners in some sense? Yes. The Psalms say that. And I'm sure it "hate" in the sense of "fighting against those who try to impede one's goal" or something to that effect.

People are too willing to commit to an absolute usage of the word "hate" when there are many usages of the word. There isn't just one. Does anyone disagree with that?

No God hates no one. But he hates what they do and have become. Thats what alot of people do not realize. Just because God loves us does not mean we love him. If we reject him then we are not one of his. God gave everyone free will. Thats why alot of people who reject him think oh well, I can do as I please, do evil in this world reject him and if he does exist oh well he loves everyone so I am getting in. He told us in the bible it does not work that way. Just like the devil made his choice in his time. I hate to say time because for God there is no time. But anyway like we have until we die in this world to repent and change our ways the devil had his. He choose evil and to reject God. Now his time is up. and ours will be soon. Its up to us in this world how its gonna be.


The devil made his choice to reject God and he is forever separated from God. Thats why he does his best to take us from God too. He hates God that much. He knows when we hurt ourself and eachother it hurts God worse. But we can repent and change our ways. Hopefully we can all do that before we die. We never know when our last day will be. For many it is today.:shrug:

tonyrey Oct 14, '09 4:35 am

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
God must love the Devil because He sustains the Devil in existence. Like us in God the Devil lives, moves and has his being! But as God's love is not reciprocated His love for the Devil cannot be as personal as His love for those who love Him...

rinnie Oct 14, '09 5:02 am

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tonyrey (Post 5820308)
God must love the Devil because He sustains the Devil in existence. Like us in God the Devil lives, moves and has his being! But as God's love is not reciprocated His love for the Devil cannot be as personal as His love for those who love Him...

That is lovely tonyrey. You are right, and we must remember this also. The devil can be the best example for all of us if we let him. Look at his works. what his evil does to all. But look at what Gods works do to us all.

We have to remember the devil put his will above Gods will. The devil did not choose God's way he wanted it his way. That is why he is where he is and what he is. If you live Gods plan you will receive Love and Peace. If you live the devils plan you will receive evil and anxiety. Kinda like what goes around comes around.

Or do unto othes as you want other's to do to you.:shrug:

jkiernan56 Oct 14, '09 6:32 am

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Areopagite (Post 5819401)
Well, cite a source.

In any case, the Psalm 5:5 says "God hates all those who do evil" or "God hates evildoer" or something to that effect. So, does God hate sinners in some sense? Yes. The Psalms say that. And I'm sure it "hate" in the sense of "fighting against those who try to impede one's goal" or something to that effect.

I have to respectfully disagree. A clear distinction needs to be made between the WHAT and the WHO. When a person does evil, God still loves the WHO and hates the WHAT. Any notion that God hates the WHO in and during the act of sin is a misunderstanding of scripture and God. Any notion that God loves a person LESS after committing evil - or loves a person MORE after they have done good - is simply wrong.

God loves ME (and each of us) - period. He loves ME even when I do evil. He is loving me even while I am doing evil. God always desires my greatest good. There is nothing I can do or not do to change that fact.

Here is one source I can site you.

Romans 5:7-8 "Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. "

On a personal note, I can also speak from a very profound personal experience of God's love for me. It was a direct experience of Grace.

I also know from another personal experience in prayer that it is God's love that makes us perfect, and not being perfect that makes God love us. If you look at that statement like a straight line as a continuum, there is no where along the line where God loves a person MORE, the more perfected in love they become. Yes, the person is able to receive more love, but God loves a person the same no matter where they are on the road to being perfected in love. God's love for you in heaven will be no less than His love for you right now.

There is only one YOU.. Only God fully knows YOU. Whatever YOU that He knows, He loves and desires to be a member of Christ's Body for the rest of eternity. God wills that for YOU no matter what you do or how much you sin. How much God loves YOU never changes by what you do or do not do.

JohnJFarren Oct 14, '09 8:03 am

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
JMJ / MMM 091014 Wednesday
Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ .. and All Others Also --

Does GOD change? .. lose and gain? No. It is impossible for God to change.
God Loved Lucifer/Satan infinitely .. and continues to Love Satan forever. Of course God does not Love the evil Satan wills and does.

Just because you and I sin doesn't mean the grace and Love of God cease to pour upon us -- but in sin we have raised our umbrellas and we sure don't get wet.
John (JohnJFarren)

Areopagite Oct 14, '09 10:12 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rinnie (Post 5820302)
No God hates no one. But he hates what they do and have become. Thats what alot of people do not realize. Just because God loves us does not mean we love him. If we reject him then we are not one of his. God gave everyone free will. Thats why alot of people who reject him think oh well, I can do as I please, do evil in this world reject him and if he does exist oh well he loves everyone so I am getting in. He told us in the bible it does not work that way. Just like the devil made his choice in his time. I hate to say time because for God there is no time. But anyway like we have until we die in this world to repent and change our ways the devil had his. He choose evil and to reject God. Now his time is up. and ours will be soon. Its up to us in this world how its gonna be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkiernan56 (Post 5820562)
I have to respectfully disagree. A clear distinction needs to be made between the WHAT and the WHO. When a person does evil, God still loves the WHO and hates the WHAT. Any notion that God hates the WHO in and during the act of sin is a misunderstanding of scripture and God. Any notion that God loves a person LESS after committing evil - or loves a person MORE after they have done good - is simply wrong.

....
On a personal note, I can also speak from a very profound personal experience of God's love for me. It was a direct experience of Grace.

I also know from another personal experience in prayer that it is God's love that makes us perfect, and not being perfect that makes God love us. If you look at that statement like a straight line as a continuum, there is no where along the line where God loves a person MORE, the more perfected in love they become. Yes, the person is able to receive more love, but God loves a person the same no matter where they are on the road to being perfected in love. God's love for you in heaven will be no less than His love for you right now.

There is only one YOU.. Only God fully knows YOU. Whatever YOU that He knows, He loves and desires to be a member of Christ's Body for the rest of eternity. God wills that for YOU no matter what you do or how much you sin. How much God loves YOU never changes by what you do or do not do.

What you guys are talking about is that God does not ontologically hate anything (which I explained in my previous posts ... perhaps no one has read them). However, in some sense ... that is, in at least one usage of the word hate ... it can be said that God hates sinners. As I said, He hates sinners in the sense of hate meaning "fighting against those who oppose one's goal." That, I think, is one way the word "hate" is used. If you deny this, then Scripture is riddled with theological problems.

Let me show them to you:

Quote:

Psalm 5:5-6: “The foolish shall not stand in Thy sight: THOU HATEST ALL WORKERS OF INIQUITY. Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing (lies): THE LORD WILL ABHOR THE BLOODY AND DECEITFUL MAN.”

Psalm 10:3: “For the wicked... blesseth the covetous, WHOM THE LORD ABHORRETH.”

Proverbs 22:14: “The soul of strange women is a deep pit: HE THAT IS ABHORRED OF THE LORD shall fall therein.”

Hosea 9:15: “All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I HATED THEM: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of Mine house, I WILL LOVE THEM NO MORE...”

Malachi 1:3-4: “And I HATED ESAU, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness...thus saith the Lord of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and the people AGAINST WHOM THE LORD HATH INDIGNATION FOREVER.”

Romans 9:13: “As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but ESAU HAVE I HATED.”
So, please, you have to acknowledge that in one sense of the how the word "hate" is used, it is true that God hates the sinner. If you don't accept that, why does Scripture say that God hates sinners? That's what it says!

It challenged (no, you can say it hurt) my faith when people in my childhood insisted God didn't hate sinners in any way because ... Scripture said otherwise. They just turned a blind eye to it. It was disgusting (these were Protestants, by the way ... well, mostly). Fortunately, I studied philosophy and found very reasonable distinctions between different kinds of hate. (Thank you, Aquinas.)

So, come on, guys. Let's get with the program and stop sugar-coating things for no reason (or rather, against reason). Please. I can't stand it. And neither can rational people.

rinnie Oct 15, '09 4:52 am

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Areopagite (Post 5823936)
What you guys are talking about is that God does not ontologically hate anything (which I explained in my previous posts ... perhaps no one has read them). However, in some sense ... that is, in at least one usage of the word hate ... it can be said that God hates sinners. As I said, He hates sinners in the sense of hate meaning "fighting against those who oppose one's goal." That, I think, is one way the word "hate" is used. If you deny this, then Scripture is riddled with theological problems.

Let me show them to you:



So, please, you have to acknowledge that in one sense of the how the word "hate" is used, it is true that God hates the sinner. If you don't accept that, why does Scripture say that God hates sinners? That's what it says!

It challenged (no, you can say it hurt) my faith when people in my childhood insisted God didn't hate sinners in any way because ... Scripture said otherwise. They just turned a blind eye to it. It was disgusting (these were Protestants, by the way ... well, mostly). Fortunately, I studied philosophy and found very reasonable distinctions between different kinds of hate. (Thank you, Aquinas.)

So, come on, guys. Let's get with the program and stop sugar-coating things for no reason (or rather, against reason).
Please. I can't stand it. And neither can rational people.




Oh so because we disagree with you we are not rational people. Answer me this then,

By the way at first I thought like you that God hated the devil also. Then I investigated more and recanted my statement. Here is why!

The bibe said God loves all of his creation. Lets stop there. Now does God or does he not? Thats what the bible says. So lets be RATIONAL is that the truth or not.

THen I started thinking. God loves Adam. Did he not? Adam fell from Grace, Did he Not? But Adam had time to change and repent. Now if God hates the fallen man then he hates us all does he not?

God hates the devil no more then he hates us. That is why God gives us time to repent and change our ways. The devil had his shot and he refused to accept Gods love and chose his own way of life.

You hear it daily on the news a Child went bad, kills murders. You hear the Mother hurting saying I hate what my child has become, but does the Mother hate the Child or what he has become. No she does not hate her child, but she hates what her child has become. If the child would continue to be evil the Mother has no choice but to turn away the child and she cannot accept the evil. If a Man chooses to continue evil the parents can no longer accept that evil they must turn from that child. No matter how much they love it. Some people just are evil that come from good. So while the parents have nothing to do later in life with the child, because it will not change its ways the love never died.

THe same with God, He pray's like that Mother that the child will come back to the light repent and quit the evil. But if the child refuses it also will not have eternal life.

What is the difference here? THere is none. Just like the Mothers love could not overpower evil Gods love also cannot. Only if the person accepts the love and turns away from the evil. Same thing.

Now you tell me. Does God love all of his creation or not? Who is right you or the word of God?

Areopagite Oct 15, '09 12:59 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rinnie (Post 5824357)
Oh so because we disagree with you we are not rational people.

You're certainly not being very rational on this subject. Or, rather, perhaps everything you're thinking makes sense and is completely logical, but you have not expressed it with any clarity at all. But, indeed, perhaps it is I who am completely out of my mind. That's possible too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rinnie (Post 5824357)

Answer me this then,

By the way at first I thought like you that God hated the devil also. Then I investigated more and recanted my statement. Here is why!

The bibe said God loves all of his creation. Lets stop there. Now does God or does he not? Thats what the bible says. So lets be RATIONAL is that the truth or not.

THen I started thinking. God loves Adam. Did he not? Adam fell from Grace, Did he Not? But Adam had time to change and repent. Now if God hates the fallen man then he hates us all does he not?

God hates the devil no more then he hates us. That is why God gives us time to repent and change our ways. The devil had his shot and he refused to accept Gods love and chose his own way of life.

You hear it daily on the news a Child went bad, kills murders. You hear the Mother hurting saying I hate what my child has become, but does the Mother hate the Child or what he has become. No she does not hate her child, but she hates what her child has become. If the child would continue to be evil the Mother has no choice but to turn away the child and she cannot accept the evil. If a Man chooses to continue evil the parents can no longer accept that evil they must turn from that child. No matter how much they love it. Some people just are evil that come from good. So while the parents have nothing to do later in life with the child, because it will not change its ways the love never died.

THe same with God, He pray's like that Mother that the child will come back to the light repent and quit the evil. But if the child refuses it also will not have eternal life.

What is the difference here? THere is none. Just like the Mothers love could not overpower evil Gods love also cannot. Only if the person accepts the love and turns away from the evil. Same thing.

You have to define what you mean by "love" and "hate" here. Depending on how you're using the terms, I would obviously agree with you, as you may discover by reading my other posts on this thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rinnie (Post 5824357)
Now you tell me. Does God love all of his creation or not? Who is right you or the word of God?

Well, on this subject, Scripture and I seem to agree. It's you and Scripture that are at odds. Please re-read the Scripture quotes I gave, and you will see that it explicitly says that God hates sinners. And yet you are saying God does not hate sinners (in every way, right?). Please stop denying that there is an apparent conflict here. Who is right? You or the word of God?

(And once again, all I'm saying is that "hate" can be used in different ways, and in one sense, God hates sinners, and in another God loves them. To fail to acknowledge this is to contradict Scripture. Read my other posts to see exactly what I've said about all this, just so you don't get the wrong impression of what I've been arguing).

jkiernan56 Oct 15, '09 3:28 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Areopagite (Post 5823936)
What you guys are talking about is that God does not ontologically hate anything (which I explained in my previous posts ... perhaps no one has read them). However, in some sense ... that is, in at least one usage of the word hate ... it can be said that God hates sinners. As I said, He hates sinners in the sense of hate meaning "fighting against those who oppose one's goal." That, I think, is one way the word "hate" is used. If you deny this, then Scripture is riddled with theological problems.

So, please, you have to acknowledge that in one sense of the how the word "hate" is used, it is true that God hates the sinner. If you don't accept that, why does Scripture say that God hates sinners? That's what it says!

It challenged (no, you can say it hurt) my faith when people in my childhood insisted God didn't hate sinners in any way because ... Scripture said otherwise. They just turned a blind eye to it. It was disgusting (these were Protestants, by the way ... well, mostly). Fortunately, I studied philosophy and found very reasonable distinctions between different kinds of hate. (Thank you, Aquinas.)

So, come on, guys. Let's get with the program and stop sugar-coating things for no reason (or rather, against reason). Please. I can't stand it. And neither can rational people.

I find the distinction you made extremely interesting. It also raises another challenging question for me about God's love ... and my own growth in holiness. I have read your explanation about how God ontologically loves all that He has created. (I reversed your earlier statement "God does not ontologically hate anything" - since I like statements in the afirmative rather than in double negatives). I experienced this complete unconditional love firsthand. But you made me consider God's love in another way that I never really considered ... by the way you explained how God hates the sinner. And it is starting to make alot of sense.

If God "hates" the sinner in the context you explained, would you also say that God loves a person MORE the holier they become? A person who grows in Holiness, takes on the image of Christ more and more. Since it is the image of Christ that God the Father loves .. .the more God loves us as we take on that image? And once a person has become perfected in love - in other words - cannot grow anymore in holiness - the image of Christ has been perfected in their soul - . that that is the extent to which God loves them?

I have heard the analogy that our souls are like cups. The more our soul grows in love, the larger the cup becomes. Each person in heaven will be completely happy because their cup will be full. But some people's cups will be larger than others. This is the degree to which they are able to love God and be loved by God.

Areopagite, I think I am beginning to see why I can agree with you about God's love in the context you put it. The more we grow in love, the more God loves us. It makes perfect sense. It also makes sense that God hates the sinner. I sincerely thank you :) :bowdown:

Areopagite Oct 15, '09 5:31 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jkiernan56 (Post 5826960)
I find the distinction you made extremely interesting. It also raises another challenging question for me about God's love ... and my own growth in holiness. I have read your explanation about how God ontologically loves all that He has created. (I reversed your earlier statement "God does not ontologically hate anything" - since I like statements in the afirmative rather than in double negatives). I experienced this complete unconditional love firsthand. But you made me consider God's love in another way that I never really considered ... by the way you explained how God hates the sinner. And it is starting to make alot of sense.

If God "hates" the sinner in the context you explained, would you also say that God loves a person MORE the holier they become? A person who grows in Holiness, takes on the image of Christ more and more. Since it is the image of Christ that God the Father loves .. .the more God loves us as we take on that image? And once a person has become perfected in love - in other words - cannot grow anymore in holiness - the image of Christ has been perfected in their soul - . that that is the extent to which God loves them?

I have heard the analogy that our souls are like cups. The more our soul grows in love, the larger the cup becomes. Each person in heaven will be completely happy because their cup will be full. But some people's cups will be larger than others. This is the degree to which they are able to love God and be loved by God.

Areopagite, I think I am beginning to see why I can agree with you about God's love in the context you put it. The more we grow in love, the more God loves us. It makes perfect sense. It also makes sense that God hates the sinner. I sincerely thank you :) :bowdown:

You're very welcome ... and thank you, Jkiernan, that means so much. I was beginning to think I was crazy. Your comments consoled me profoundly. Thank you.

And I think I agree with you that God loves us more when He sees Christ in us. I've actually heard that before (from a theologian). And that cup analogy makes a lot of sense.

It is understandable why one would sometimes disregard the alternative usages of the terms "love" and "hate" with regard to God, especially if one has undergone some personal experience regarding the infinite ontological love of God (and there are many such people). I could see myself doing that, at least. One would then have, perhaps, an inclination sometimes to overemphasize the ontological love to the potential rejection (or ... major de-emphasis) of the other meanings of the word. It could create confusion for others, even though it may make sense in his own head. Definitely not a malicious thing, and definitely forgivable.

Nonetheless, there is some spiritual benefit, I think, to sometimes acknowledge that God can hate you in some sense if you sin, otherwise there may be a temptation (for some at least) not to take the avoidance of sin seriously (and falling into the presumption that God's going to forgive whatever you do).

Depending who you are, emphasizing God's love can be beneficial, and for others, perhaps emphasizing God's hatred would occasionally be beneficial. In general, however, I would very much be inclined that for most people, in most points in their lives, the love of God is the thing to be emphasized. In fact, without a doubt. That's kind of the whole point of existence.:)

jkiernan56 Oct 15, '09 6:28 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Areopagite (Post 5827324)
You're very welcome ... and thank you, Jkiernan, that means so much. I was beginning to think I was crazy. Your comments consoled me profoundly. Thank you.

And I think I agree with you that God loves us more when He sees Christ in us. I've actually heard that before (from a theologian). And that cup analogy makes a lot of sense.

It is understandable why one would sometimes disregard the alternative usages of the terms "love" and "hate" with regard to God, especially if one has undergone some personal experience regarding the infinite ontological love of God (and there are many such people). I could see myself doing that, at least. One would then have, perhaps, an inclination sometimes to overemphasize the ontological love to the potential rejection (or ... major de-emphasis) of the other meanings of the word. It could create confusion for others, even though it may make sense in his own head. Definitely not a malicious thing, and definitely forgivable.

Nonetheless, there is some spiritual benefit, I think, to sometimes acknowledge that God can hate you in some sense if you sin, otherwise there may be a temptation (for some at least) not to take the avoidance of sin seriously (and falling into the presumption that God's going to forgive whatever you do).

Depending who you are, emphasizing God's love can be beneficial, and for others, perhaps emphasizing God's hatred would occasionally be beneficial. In general, however, I would very much be inclined that for most people, in most points in their lives, the love of God is the thing to be emphasized. In fact, without a doubt. That's kind of the whole point of existence.:)

Thank you for blessing me with your knowledge of God's love and hate. I apologize for saying things about God's love out of ignorance that were not true in an earlier post. You have given me a whole new understanding and illumined scripture for me. Please say a prayer for me to want to take sin in my life more seriously so that I can fall more in love with Jesus and His Body. I am definitely guilty of presumption.

I also understand now how God loves the Devil - only ontologically. Since there is no goodness in the Devil other than his existence, there is nothing God can love about the Devil other than his existence which God. God only loves what is good and holy. The more we grow in holiness, the more God loves us. The converse is true as well. God absolutely hates the Devil other than his existence because there is no goodness in the Devil other than his existence.

It is not God's choice to hate the Devil, but rather because of the Devil's choice, he has rejected God. God can do nothing other than hate the Devil. Holiness and Evil are diametrically opposed to each other. Because of God's holiness, God hates anything and anyone associated with evil. It is His nature and God can only do what His nature is - Love what is holy.

jimcintosh Oct 16, '09 6:54 am

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jkiernan56 (Post 5827512)
God only loves what is good and holy. The more we grow in holiness, the more God loves us. The converse is true as well.

Hmmm... I was agreeing with much which was written here, ignoring the bickering, until I arrived at at the quote above.

First, God is unchanging. God cannot love more or love less. God is love.

Second, time is as much part of the created order as is everything else. God exists outside the created order because God is the creator. Therefore, how can God love more when we grow in holiness if all moments are "now" to God.

It just doesn't make sense.

God's love for you is infinite and unchanging. It cannot be otherwise.

rinnie Oct 16, '09 10:33 am

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jimcintosh (Post 5828918)
Hmmm... I was agreeing with much which was written here, ignoring the bickering, until I arrived at at the quote above.

First, God is unchanging. God cannot love more or love less. God is love.

Second, time is as much part of the created order as is everything else. God exists outside the created order because God is the creator. Therefore, how can God love more when we grow in holiness if all moments are "now" to God.

It just doesn't make sense.

God's love for you is infinite and unchanging. It cannot be otherwise.

I am waiting to hear that one myself!:D

rinnie Oct 16, '09 10:44 am

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Areopagite (Post 5826445)
You're certainly not being very rational on this subject. Or, rather, perhaps everything you're thinking makes sense and is completely logical, but you have not expressed it with any clarity at all. But, indeed, perhaps it is I who am completely out of my mind. That's possible too.



You have to define what you mean by "love" and "hate" here. Depending on how you're using the terms, I would obviously agree with you, as you may discover by reading my other posts on this thread.



Well, on this subject, Scripture and I seem to agree. It's you and Scripture that are at odds. Please re-read the Scripture quotes I gave, and [B
]you will see that it explicitly says that God hates sinners[/B
]. And yet you are saying God does not hate sinners (in every way, right?). Please stop denying that there is an apparent conflict here. Who is right? You or the word of God?

(And once again, all I'm saying is that "hate" can be used in different ways, and in one sense, God hates sinners, and in another God loves them. To fail to acknowledge this is to contradict Scripture. Read my other posts to see exactly what I've said about all this, just so you don't get the wrong impression of what I've been arguing).

Yes it does, but it also says God loves all his creation. So who is right you or me. Does God love his creation but hates what they do, Or does he hate his creation now? What are you saying?

I said and I will make myself clear, God hates evil and the sins man does. God loves everyone but hates the sin that they do. If you are a sinner you choose to turn away God. And you will not be with him in heaven, its as simple as that. Rather God loves a sinner or not he will not give them eternal life if they do not turn from that sin. But he never stops loving a sinner. ITs as simple as that. So how can God love all of his creation but then hate the sinner. I know what scripture says. but who is understanding it wrong you or I? He can't do both now can he?

Areopagite Oct 16, '09 11:44 am

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jimcintosh (Post 5828918)
First, God is unchanging. God cannot love more or love less. God is love.

Of course He can. I hope you would agree that God hates sin. That would be is a case where God isn't loving at all.

I don't see the connection between God's unchangeableness and His supposed disability to love in varying degrees.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimcintosh (Post 5828918)
Second, time is as much part of the created order as is everything else. God exists outside the created order because God is the creator. Therefore, how can God love more when we grow in holiness if all moments are "now" to God.

It just doesn't make sense.

God's love for you is infinite and unchanging. It cannot be otherwise.

Let me ask you a question: Does God the Father love us more or God the Son more? Probably God the Son. Maybe you disagree. But if He loves the Son more, it follows that when we are in a state of grace we are then loved more by God because we then have the divine dwelling in us.

I also assume that you might agree that God loves us more than He loves a rock. Right? It's because humans are made in the image of God and the rock is not. God sees Himself more in us than a rock, and hence loves us more. Same kind of thing happens with a person with grace compared to someone without grace.

It's not like God Himself changes in these circumstances. It's certainly the case that the creatures change in relation to God's love. For example, when we sin, we lose the divine in us. It's not like the divine changes in that case, but we change in relation to the divine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rinnie (Post 5829904)
Yes it does, but it also says God loves all his creation. So who is right you or me. Does God love his creation but hates what they do, Or does he hate his creation now? What are you saying?

I said and I will make myself clear, God hates evil and the sins man does. God loves everyone but hates the sin that they do. If you are a sinner you choose to turn away God. And you will not be with him in heaven, its as simple as that. Rather God loves a sinner or not he will not give them eternal life if they do not turn from that sin. But he never stops loving a sinner. ITs as simple as that. So how can God love all of his creation but then hate the sinner. I know what scripture says. but who is understanding it wrong you or I? He can't do both now can he?

I'm saying He ontologically loves all his creation. But He certainly does not love everything equally. He loves man more than rocks. He loves people full of grace more than mortal sinners because holy people have the divine in them. Nonetheless, ontologically speaking, God hates nothing in creation, and doesn't even hate sinners in that sense.

God also loves sinners insofar as He wants them to go to heaven.

However, when you're talking about hate in another sense, namely, "fighting against those who oppose's one goal" then God does hate certain things, even sinners. If you don't acknowledge that this is one of the legitimate definitions of hate, then the Bible is wrong.

I hope you understand me. I'm saying that all uses of the word "hate" are not the same (which is the case for a lot of words). In some cases, "hate" is used one way. In others, it's used in another. You believe, apparently, it's used in just one way. I, of course, disagree with that.

You keep saying that "God doesn't hate sinners" in every sense. But the Scripture says "God hates sinners." And then you respond, "No, God doesn't hate sinners, He hates their actions" (I would agree that God hates their actions), but by denying that "God hates sinners" you are very explicitly contradicting Scripture. God cannot hate sinners and not hate sinners (unless, these two terms are not being used univocally ... hint, hint).

So, you haven't addressed why Scripture plainly says, "God hates sinners" and yet why it doesn't contradict your argument that "God doesn't hate sinners." You must address this. Am I being unreasonable?
[/quote]

rinnie Oct 16, '09 12:08 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Areopagite (Post 5830164)
Of course He can. I hope you would agree that God hates sin. That would be is a case where God isn't loving at all.

I don't see the connection between God's unchangeableness and His supposed disability to love in varying degrees.



Let me ask you a question: Does God the Father love us more or God the Son more? Probably God the Son. Maybe you disagree. But if He loves the Son more, it follows that when we are in a state of grace we are then loved more by God because we then have the divine dwelling in us.

I also assume that you might agree that God loves us more than He loves a rock. Right? It's because humans are made in the image of God and the rock is not. God sees Himself more in us than a rock, and hence loves us more. Same kind of thing happens with a person with grace compared to someone without grace.

It's not like God Himself changes in these circumstances. It's certainly the case that the creatures change in relation to God's love. For example, when we sin, we lose the divine in us. It's not like the divine changes in that case, but we change in relation to the divine.



I'm saying He ontologically loves all his creation. But He certainly does not love everything equally. He loves man more than rocks. He loves people full of grace more than mortal sinners because holy people have the divine in them. Nonetheless, ontologically speaking, God hates nothing in creation, and doesn't even hate sinners in that sense.

God also loves sinners insofar as He wants them to go to heaven.

However, when you're talking about hate in another sense, namely, "fighting against those who oppose's one goal" then God does hate certain things, even sinners. If you don't acknowledge that this is one of the legitimate definitions of hate, then the Bible is wrong.

I hope you understand me. I'm saying that all uses of the word "hate" are not the same (which is the case for a lot of words). In some cases, "hate" is used one way. In others, it's used in another. You believe, apparently, it's used in just one way. I, of course, disagree with that.

You keep saying that "God doesn't hate sinners" in every sense. But the Scripture says "God hates sinners." And then you respond, "No, God doesn't hate sinners, He hates their actions" (I would agree that God hates their actions), but by denying that "God hates sinners" you are very explicitly contradicting Scripture. God cannot hate sinners and not hate sinners (unless, these two terms are not being used univocally ... hint, hint).

So, you haven't addressed why Scripture plainly says, "God hates sinners" and yet why it doesn't contradict your argument that "God doesn't hate sinners." You must address this. Am I being unreasonable?

[/quote]

Because when it is stated that GOd hates sinners we understand that God hates no Man but hates the sins they commit. SO to say God hates sinners knowing that God loves all Man we know God is saying he hates it when Man sins.

Just like God hates a liar. Does that mean if we lie God hates us? You tell me, It says God hates liars in the bible does it not. So if I lie does God hate me? Or is it for me to understand God hates the lying that I do?

rinnie Oct 16, '09 12:09 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Because if you are correct God hates alot of People. How many People in this world can say that they have never told a lie?

Areopagite Oct 16, '09 12:22 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rinnie (Post 5830272)

Because when it is stated that GOd hates sinners we understand that God hates no Man but hates the sins they commit. SO to say God hates sinners knowing that God loves all Man we know God is saying he hates it when Man sins.

Just like God hates a liar. Does that mean if we lie God hates us? You tell me, It says God hates liars in the bible does it not. So if I lie does God hate me? Or is it for me to understand God hates the lying that I do?

I would agree that God hates the lying one would do as well as any sin one commits.

However, Scripture says, "God hates sinners" and if it actually meant, "God hates the sin that sinners commit" ... why didn't it say that instead?

This proves, I believe, that "hate" can be used in different ways.

You see, you're saying, again, that "God doesn't hate sinners" but Scripture says, "God does hate sinners" but you're saying that's correct if it's understood properly. Likewise, I would say that "God hates sinners" is true if it's understood properly. Does that make sense?

Quote:

Originally Posted by rinnie (Post 5830276)
Because if you are correct God hates alot of People. How many People in this world can say that they have never told a lie?

Yes, God hates just about everybody in that sense. But that's okay, because in another sense, He hates no one. Most importantly, God loves us insofar as He wants what's best for us and is working to get us into heaven. Yet, He hates us when we do evil insofar as He fights against us (though ultimately to try and bring out good in us and others).

I would be curious ... does Scripture ever say that God doesn't hate sinners? It obviously says God loves us, but that doesn't exclude the idea that God also hates us in some sense.

Now, perhaps what's necessary to clear up the disagreement is for you to define what you mean by love and hate. You haven't really done that yet.

rinnie Oct 16, '09 12:27 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Areopagite (Post 5830330)
I would agree that God hates the lying one would do as well as any sin one commits.

However, Scripture says, "God hates sinners" and if it actually meant, "God hates the sin that sinners commit" ... why didn't it say that instead?

This proves, I believe, that "hate" can be used in different ways.

You see, you're saying, again, that "God doesn't hate sinners" but Scripture says, "God does hate sinners" but you're saying that's correct if it's understood properly. Likewise, I would say that "God hates sinners" is true if it's understood properly. Does that make sense?



Yes, God hates just about everybody in that sense. But that's okay, because in another sense, He hates no one. Most importantly, God loves us insofar as He wants what's best for us and is working to get us into heaven. Yet, He hates us when we do evil insofar as He fights against us (though ultimately to try and bring out good in us and others).

I would be curious ... does Scripture ever say that God doesn't hate sinners? It obviously says God loves us, but that doesn't exclude the idea that God also hates us in some sense.

Now, perhaps what's necessary to clear up the disagreement is for you to define what you mean by love and hate. You haven't really done that yet.

Oh no If it does state that God does not hate sinners point blank like that I missed it too. BUt it does state he hates sinners. and it does state he hates liars. So the balls in your court. Again if I see it your way he hates me too. Because I have told one or two, okay just added another to the list:D in my time. DOes God hate me? I am also a sinner, Does God hate me?

rinnie Oct 16, '09 12:31 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
See I am not trying to be mean or unreasonable. Trust me, At first I was thinking it another way too, But then I had to rethink my thinking if you know what I mean?:D

So now that I did see it another way I am trying to show you what I saw. Thats all.

So does God hate the devil. No not according to scripture.

Does God hate the works of the devil. OH YEAH:D:yup:

So now lets do it this way Does God hate the liar (the lies the person tells? Yep.
Does God hate the Person who tells lies? Nope

jkiernan56 Oct 16, '09 3:24 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rinnie (Post 5830380)
See I am not trying to be mean or unreasonable. Trust me, At first I was thinking it another way too, But then I had to rethink my thinking if you know what I mean?:D

So now that I did see it another way I am trying to show you what I saw. Thats all.

So does God hate the devil. No not according to scripture.

Does God hate the works of the devil. OH YEAH:D:yup:

So now lets do it this way Does God hate the liar (the lies the person tells? Yep.
Does God hate the Person who tells lies? Nope

There is no goodness in the Devil for God to love other than his existence.
In that context, God does not love the Devil other than ontologically. Another way to say that is that God hates the Devil other than his existence. If there was any other kind of goodness in the Devil, then God would love the Devil to the degree that goodness is present. But since there is none other than existence... you get the picture.

The same holds true for each person. The more a person grows in holiness (the image of Christ), the more God loves the goodness present in that person.

jkiernan56 Oct 16, '09 3:40 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jkiernan56 (Post 5820562)
How much God loves YOU never changes by what you do or do not do.

I retract this because of a misunderstanding of God's love. I now realize God loves me more as I grow in love (holiness).

rinnie Oct 16, '09 4:00 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
[quote=jkiernan56;5831065]There is no goodness in the Devil for God to love other than his existence.
In that context, God does not love the Devil other than ontologically. Another way to say that is that God hates the Devil other than his existence. If there was any other kind of goodness in the Devil, then God would love the Devil to the degree that goodness is present. But since there is none other than existence... you get the picture.

The same holds true for each person. The more a person grows in holiness (the image of Christ),
the more God loves the goodness present in that person.[/
QUOTE]

We are getting closer:D

See God has one kind of LOVE. ITs Gods love rather we accept it or not. He Loves us. thats it. Love is love. Gods love never changes.

Now While I can't say that God loves us more because we are good, and does not love us as much because we are bad, (see what I mean, he loves us thats it). But I can say God loves to see us be good, And hates to see us do bad. Now I do agree the more a person grows in Holiness that person is in the image of God, I have no problem with that.

ITs like me saying my Son is not as good as my daughter so I love my daughter more. See what I mean. I love them both the same and always will. But I can say my daughter is easier to love then my Son at times and vice versa but the love is still the same and still as strong. Even when they do bad or make mistakes I still love them. They may make me angry, and I hate what they do but love is love.

So while God does indeed love the devil for who he was, and what he was, and remember the devil was a angel at one time. God hates what the devil has become, and hates what he choose to do. He hates his works. And because the devil would not change and turn away from evil God had to let the devil go. And so God had to separate himself from the devil for Good. But because God had to separate himself from the devil I am sure it still hurt God to have to do that. BUt God will have no part of evil so he had to do what had to be done.

Just like us, Even if we do evil and become evil God still loves us, and wants us to turn away from evil. But we can choose evil also, and if we do we will separate ourself from God also. And as much as God loves us too, he will not accept us either if we choose evil. So God will never quit loving us either, but his love for us as powerful as it is, he will still reject us if we do not reject evil. Am I doing any better at explaining my point now?

rinnie Oct 16, '09 4:06 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jkiernan56 (Post 5831125)
I retract this because of a misunderstanding of God's love. I now realize God loves me more as I grow in love (holiness).

And see I do not agree with you. I agree with you the first time. God loves you no matter what you do good or bad. Because his love for us never changes.

I do not think God could love us anymore then he did from the moment he made us. It was there and never changed. But we choose to accept or reject that love. And that is by obeying his word or rejecting it. God gave us all free underserved Grace. We either grow in it and accept it, or throw it away. But it was a free gift from him. The devil threw it away.

jkiernan56 Oct 16, '09 4:47 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rinnie (Post 5831208)
And see I do not agree with you. I agree with you the first time. God loves you no matter what you do good or bad. Because his love for us never changes.

I do not think God could love us anymore then he did from the moment he made us. It was there and never changed. But we choose to accept or reject that love. And that is by obeying his word or rejecting it. God gave us all free underserved Grace. We either grow in it and accept it, or throw it away. But it was a free gift from him. The devil threw it away.

I can understand your objections to this kind of talk about God's love. Two days ago I agreed with you. Now I realize I did not understand fully the difference between God's ontological love (God wanting and willing our existence) and His love for us as we grow in holines (virture) or vice (evil). I agree with you when we sin, God still loves us and desires our greatest good. That fact cannot change. He knows us completely. He knows all we can become (a heavenly creature) or the depths of evil we can sink to (a hellish creature). When God loves us, it is the goodness in us that He loves. This type of love is not the same as ontological love. It goes above and beyond ontological love. It means God loves what is good in us as a person. God does not love what is not good within us. Ultimately, it is the image of His eternal Son Christ that God loves in us. The more we grow in that image, the more we love God and the more love of God we can receive and give to others. In that context, I accept that God loves us more, the more we grow in holiness.

On the other hand, if we reject love (God) and end up eternally separated from God, there is no more goodness in us other than our existence. In that context, God only loves ontologically since in hell there is no goodness in any person or angel to be found. They cannot give love or receive love. God hates them in the sense that they have no inner goodness to love. He only loves them ontologically. But for those who have not yet gone to hell, there is still something good in a person (other than ontologically) for God to love.

I now realize because I did not understand the difference between the ways God loves us, I did not take sin as seriously as I should, but rather presumed God's love and goodness. This is consistent with an article I read by St. Alphonsus Liguori titled "On The Number of Sins Beyond Which God Pardons No More". Here is the link:

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/...ral/number.htm

If God loves us in the way that I used to think, then why would there be a point where God pardons no more and pulls the plug? Clearly God loves the virtuous and hates the sinner.

rinnie Oct 16, '09 5:24 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jkiernan56 (Post 5831337)
I can understand your objections to this kind of talk about God's love. Two days ago I agreed with you. Now I realize I did not understand fully the difference between God's ontological love (God wanting and willing our existence) and His love for us as we grow in holines (virture) or vice (evil). I agree with you when we sin, God still loves us and desires our greatest good. That fact cannot change. He knows us completely. He knows all we can become (a heavenly creature) or the depths of evil we can sink to (a hellish creature). When God loves us, it is the goodness in us that He loves. This type of love is not the same as ontological love. It goes above and beyond ontological love. It means God loves what is good in us as a person. God does not love what is not good within us. Ultimately, it is the image of His eternal Son Christ that God loves in us. The more we grow in that image, the more we love God and the more love of God we can receive and give to others. In that context, I accept that God loves us more, the more we grow in holiness.

On the other hand, if we reject love (God) and end up eternally separated from God, there is no more goodness in us other than our existence. In that context, God only loves ontologically since in hell there is no goodness in any person or angel to be found. They cannot give love or receive love. God hates them in the sense that they have no inner goodness to love. He only loves them ontologically. But for those who have not yet gone to hell, there is still something good in a person (other than ontologically) for God to love.

I now realize because I did not understand the difference between the ways God loves us, I did not take sin as seriously as I should, but rather presumed God's love and goodness. This is consistent with an article I read by St. Alphonsus Liguori titled "On The Number of Sins Beyond Which God Pardons No More". Here is the link:

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/...ral/number.htm

If God loves us in the way that I used to think, then why would there be a point where God pardons no more and pulls the plug? Clearly God loves the virtuous and hates the sinner.

Okay lets do this. Lets give it the weekend, Pray on it, and Monday see what we come up with. What a easy question huh? So we thought in the beginning! I too have never been so confused. But I think I got it. But we will see. So lets pray and touch base Mon. Have a wonderful weekend!:D

tonyrey Oct 17, '09 2:13 am

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jkiernan56 (Post 5831337)
"How many has God sent to Hell for the first offense? St. Gregory relates, that a child of five years, who had arrived at the use of reason, for having uttered a blasphemy, was seized by the Devil and carried to Hell. The divine Mother revealed to that great servant of God, Benedicta of Florence, that a boy of twelve years was damned after the first sin. Another boy of eight years died after his first sin, and was lost."

If God loves us in the way that I used to think, then why would there be a point where God pardons no more and pulls the plug? Clearly God loves the virtuous and hates the sinner.


It is absurd to believe a child is damned for all eternity for one unpremeditated exclamation. This kind of nonsense brings Christianity into disrepute and fosters atheism. It means Our Lord's sacrifice on the Cross was in vain as far as that child is concerned and His infinite love is mingled with hatred for those who blaspheme...

Hatred is a negative, destructive emotion. It cannot be an attribute of our Creator Who never ceases loving His creatures. Those who deliberately reject God frustrate His love and make Him suffer. He suffered on the Cross but he did not hate those who caused His death. He continues to suffer in heaven because there cannot be love without suffering. God shares the suffering of all his creatures because He identifies Himself with them - even they are in hell.

He does not hate those who choose hell because He knows all evil is due to ignorance. It is culpable ignorance because they choose to live for themselves with full knowledge of the consequences. But their pride and delight in absolute power over themselves blind them to the glory of God. It does not mar His joy because He knows suffering is the inevitable consequence of freedom. He knows the infinite value of life far outweighs its drawbacks and without freedom there can be no love...

jkiernan56 Oct 17, '09 7:44 am

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tonyrey (Post 5832557)
[font=Verdana]
It is absurd to believe a child is damned for all eternity for one unpremeditated exclamation. This kind of nonsense brings Christianity into disrepute and fosters atheism. It means Our Lord's sacrifice on the Cross was in vain as far as that child is concerned and His infinite love is mingled with hatred for those who blaspheme...

Hatred is a negative, destructive emotion. It cannot be an attribute of our Creator Who never ceases loving His creatures. Those who deliberately reject God frustrate His love and make Him suffer. He suffered on the Cross but he did not hate those who caused His death. He continues to suffer in heaven because there cannot be love without suffering. God shares the suffering of all his creatures because He identifies Himself with them - even they are in hell.

He does not hate those who choose hell because He knows all evil is due to ignorance. It is culpable ignorance because they choose to live for themselves with full knowledge of the consequences. But their pride and delight in absolute power over themselves blind them to the glory of God. It does not mar His joy because He knows suffering is the inevitable consequence of freedom. He knows the infinite value of life far outweighs its drawbacks and without freedom there can be no love...

I believe you are the one who is ignorant and have have lost sight of the forest because of all the trees. Whether God did or did not pull the plug on a child for a first offense uttered blashemy is not for you or me to determine. That story is just A TREE and misses the whole point. St. Alphonsus Liguori wrote an article "On The Number of Sins Beyond Which God Pardons No More" which I wholeheartedly agree with. Here it is -

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/...ral/number.htm

Yes, God loves us - period. But a person who knows the love of God and continues to live in serious sin - beware. Do not take God's patience for granted. I am guilty of this.

I stand behind the idea that the more a person grows in holiness, the more God loves them and the more they are able to receive God's love. They have become more "loveable" in a sense. The more a person grows in vice, the less God loves them and the less they are able to receive God's love. They have become less "loveable". God still loves them - but to what extent?

I would like to ask you a question and I would like you to answer it very specifically. Lets assume for the sake of this question that Adolph Hitler went to hell after he died. (We don't know that for a fact, but lets assume that for the sake of this question).

Would you please tell me what does God love about Hitler in Hell? I know God loves Hitler in the sense that He gives Hitler his existence. But please tell me WHAT ELSE about Hitler that God loves if he is in Hell???

There is a point where a person has nothing "loveable" about them other than the fact that they exist. That place or state of being is called Hell.

You say the Lord continues to suffer in heaven for those in hell? Hmmmmmm ....
"And He shall take away all their tears and death will be no more ... " as Revelations tells us.
Jesus who is fully human like you and me, will also have no more tears. In fact, since hell is fixed and absolute, the only tears I believe Jesus still sheds are for you and me who are still on pilgrimage.

jimcintosh Oct 17, '09 10:33 am

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Areopagite (Post 5830164)
Of course He can. I hope you would agree that God hates sin. That would be is a case where God isn't loving at all.

I don't see the connection between God's unchangeableness and His supposed disability to love in varying degrees.

You can say that God always hated or God always loved, but you cannot say that God used to love and now hates or used to hate and now loves or used to love a little now loves more. It is just impossible if you want to believe in an infinite God then to say that God changes is to say that there is something that God was not and now is. That implies that God was lacking in something is now lacking in something which is impossible. God is infinite. This is basic theology here.

Look at it another way. Since time is part of the created order, God exists outside of time. God cannot be limited by time because he is the creator. All moments of time must be "now" to God. To say that God loves somewhat at one point in time and then more at another point in time is to say that God exists within time, that is, within the created order. This implies God was created and not the creator, and this we cannot believe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Areopagite;5830164Let me ask you a question: Does God the Father love [I
us[/i] more or God the Son more? Probably God the Son. Maybe you disagree. But if He loves the Son more, it follows that when we are in a state of grace we are then loved more by God because we then have the divine dwelling in us.

I also assume that you might agree that God loves us more than He loves a rock. Right? It's because humans are made in the image of God and the rock is not. God sees Himself more in us than a rock, and hence loves us more. Same kind of thing happens with a person with grace compared to someone without grace.

It's not like God Himself changes in these circumstances. It's certainly the case that the creatures change in relation to God's love. For example, when we sin, we lose the divine in us. It's not like the divine changes in that case, but we change in relation to the divine.



I'm saying He ontologically loves all his creation. But He certainly does not love everything equally. He loves man more than rocks. He loves people full of grace more than mortal sinners because holy people have the divine in them. Nonetheless, ontologically speaking, God hates nothing in creation, and doesn't even hate sinners in that sense.

God also loves sinners insofar as He wants them to go to heaven.

However, when you're talking about hate in another sense, namely, "fighting against those who oppose's one goal" then God does hate certain things, even sinners. If you don't acknowledge that this is one of the legitimate definitions of hate, then the Bible is wrong.

I hope you understand me. I'm saying that all uses of the word "hate" are not the same (which is the case for a lot of words). In some cases, "hate" is used one way. In others, it's used in another. You believe, apparently, it's used in just one way. I, of course, disagree with that.

You keep saying that "God doesn't hate sinners" in every sense. But the Scripture says "God hates sinners." And then you respond, "No, God doesn't hate sinners, He hates their actions" (I would agree that God hates their actions), but by denying that "God hates sinners" you are very explicitly contradicting Scripture. God cannot hate sinners and not hate sinners (unless, these two terms are not being used univocally ... hint, hint).

So, you haven't addressed why Scripture plainly says, "God hates sinners" and yet why it doesn't contradict your argument that "God doesn't hate sinners." You must address this. Am I being unreasonable?

Do you love your children more or yourself more? This is kind of a crazy question if you're asking it about a being whose love is infinite, who is love. How can you possibly quantify love which is infinite as being anything but infinite. To say that God's love is not infinite to to deny the infiniteness of God, which we cannot do. If God's love is infinite, how can God love more than infinitely? This is like the goofy kids in fourth grade learning about the mathematical concept of infinity and asking if there can be an "infinity plus one." There can't be.

There was a time when humans thought their gods were like themselves, only grander and with more power. These are Zeus, Jupiter, Thor, the gods of the Romans and the Greeks. They loved, they hated, they got jealous. They occasionally came down and fathered children with pretty women who had caught their eye (you can see a remnant of this in Genesis 6:1-4).

It was the Jews who say past this pettiness and saw that there was one God who was the creator. A God who was infinite. This is the God we worship.

This God is sometimes hard to grasp because this God is different from us. I sometimes like to see the various faiths and think of the story of the blind men and the elephant. One grabbed the elephant's ear and said, "An elephant is like a big leaf." Another encountered the elephant's leg and said, "An elephant is like a tree." Another, on encountering the elephant's nose, said, "An elephant is like a hose." And so forth.

Since we believe that Jesus is Lord, we take his description to be more accurate and Jesus told us that God is Father, God is loving parent. Chapter 4 of 1 John tells us that God is love.

To be created is to be loved by God. And God's love is infinite. It is infinite for each of us "as if there were no other". God's love for you is infinite, for me is infinite, for the rock in my garden is infinite. All of creation sings the glory of God.

It is tempting to want that God who grows in love as we hopefully do, who watches over us through time as if God were part of the created order, who can turn God's love on and off. This, however, cannot be a description of our God. Our God's love, as is God, is infinite.

jimcintosh Oct 17, '09 10:51 am

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jkiernan56 (Post 5833084)
I stand behind the idea that the more a person grows in holiness, the more God loves them and the more they are able to receive God's love. They have become more "loveable" in a sense. The more a person grows in vice, the less God loves them and the less they are able to receive God's love. They have become less "loveable". God still loves them - but to what extent?

I would like to ask you a question and I would like you to answer it very specifically. Lets assume for the sake of this question that Adolph Hitler went to hell after he died. (We don't know that for a fact, but lets assume that for the sake of this question).

Would you please tell me what does God love about Hitler in Hell? I know God loves Hitler in the sense that He gives Hitler his existence. But please tell me WHAT ELSE about Hitler that God loves if he is in Hell???

For your first statement, I agree that "the more a person grows in holiness, ... the more they are able to receive God's love. They have become more 'loveable' in a sense. The more a person grows in vice, ... the less they are able to receive God's love. They have become less 'loveable´."

I cannot agree that God loves them more or loves them less. See my last post. God's love is infinite, but that does not mean that our capacity to receive that love is anything but fraught with human frailty. As we sin, we close ourselves to God's love, but that love remains infinite and unwavering.

As to your second point, we are all a mixture of sin and goodness. All of us -- only Jesus and Mary were exempt. The greatest saints repeatedly tell us they are also the greatest sinners. I like to think that I have more goodness that badness within me, but I struggle. We all do. We have things the open us up to God's love and we have things which close us off from God's love.

There's an autobiography written by Rudolf Hoess, the commandant of Auschwitz, which is a fascinating read. This is a man who was overseeing the murder of millions of people who went home at night to his loving wife and daughters. They clearly found something lovable in this man who we would see as a monster. Eva Braun saw a side of Hitler with which she was deeply in love.

We all have goodness and badness -- one could say evil or sin -- within us. It is thus to be human. God loves us. Since God is infinite, God's love is infinite. We are the ones who block that love. If we do so completely, we believe that we will do so for all eternity. This we call hell. It does not mean that God does not love us infinitely; it only means that we have chosen to block ourselves from that love.

Areopagite Oct 17, '09 12:15 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tonyrey (Post 5832557)
Hatred is a negative, destructive emotion. It cannot be an attribute of our Creator Who never ceases loving His creatures.

Aquinas said that both "hate" and "love" can be attributed to certain emotions, but they can also be attributed to the will. It is not being argued here that God has any emotions. But He does have a certain kind of hate (of His will) that apply, for example (as I hope you agree), to people's sins.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonyrey (Post 5832557)
Those who deliberately reject God frustrate His love and make Him suffer.

What do you mean by "frustrate his love"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonyrey (Post 5832557)
He suffered on the Cross but he did not hate those who caused His death. He continues to suffer in heaven because there cannot be love without suffering. God shares the suffering of all his creatures because He identifies Himself with them - even they are in hell.

Yeah ... I'd like to see some sources on this one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonyrey (Post 5832557)
He does not hate those who choose hell because He knows all evil is due to ignorance. It is culpable ignorance because they choose to live for themselves with full knowledge of the consequences. But their pride and delight in absolute power over themselves blind them to the glory of God. It does not mar His joy because He knows suffering is the inevitable consequence of freedom. He knows the infinite value of life far outweighs its drawbacks and without freedom there can be no love...

It is true that all sin is due to some level of ignorance, and as you say it's a kind of culpable ignorance because it's willfully turning away from the truth (for if all truth was completely exposed to us, we would be fulfilled and unable to turn away from it ... that's what the beatific vision is). However, nonetheless, we have enough knowledge to know better and hence be culpable ... and thus do genuine evil. Thus, they willfully fight God, and God fights back ... and since God fights them, it can be said in one sense that He hates them (as the Scriptures say) because one hates things that tries to thwart your goal (as Aquinas says).

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimcintosh (Post 5833535)
You can say that God always hated or God always loved, but you cannot say that God used to love and now hates or used to hate and now loves or used to love a little now loves more. It is just impossible if you want to believe in an infinite God then to say that God changes is to say that there is something that God was not and now is. That implies that God was lacking in something is now lacking in something which is impossible. God is infinite. This is basic theology here.

A good argument. I definitely agree with you that God can't change. But, once again, God's love applies differently to different things at different times. It's creatures that change in relation to God's love.

To further show this, you agree that God hates sin and loves virtue right? So, thus, it can be true that God may not have a consistent love of your behavior, because your behavior changes (oscillating from virtue to vice). Now, just because God's love "changes" with respect to your behavior, it also "changes" with respect to people depending on ... well ... how their behaving. But once again, God's love literally does not change, but applies differently to different things and different times. I hope that makes sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimcintosh (Post 5833535)
How can you possibly quantify love which is infinite as being anything but infinite. To say that God's love is not infinite to to deny the infiniteness of God, which we cannot do. If God's love is infinite, how can God love more than infinitely? This is like the goofy kids in fourth grade learning about the mathematical concept of infinity and asking if there can be an "infinity plus one." There can't be.

There are in fact ways to compare the sizes of different finds of infinity (either Calculus, Set theory, or number theory deals with that ... it's been awhile). And also there are infinite sets that include other infinite sets but not vice versa. So, it is not impossible to "quantify" infinity. God can love things in varying infinite amounts.

Areopagite Oct 17, '09 12:15 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jimcintosh (Post 5833535)
There was a time when humans thought their gods were like themselves, only grander and with more power. These are Zeus, Jupiter, Thor, the gods of the Romans and the Greeks. They loved, they hated, they got jealous. They occasionally came down and fathered children with pretty women who had caught their eye (you can see a remnant of this in Genesis 6:1-4).

I know, the gods were sinful. They loved things in ways they shouldn't have, and they hated things they shouldn't have. But God loves and hates in ways that he should.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimcintosh (Post 5833535)
This God is sometimes hard to grasp because this God is different from us. I sometimes like to see the various faiths and think of the story of the blind men and the elephant. One grabbed the elephant's ear and said, "An elephant is like a big leaf." Another encountered the elephant's leg and said, "An elephant is like a tree." Another, on encountering the elephant's nose, said, "An elephant is like a hose." And so forth.

But little do they know ... that the truth is a Republican.:D (sorry, I couldn't resist ... not to say that I'm a Republican or Democrat ... for what it's worth, I'm neither)

Right, and different people with incomplete views of God will say either that God is loving in every way or hateful in every way. The view I'm proposing seems in a sense to be balanced and include a fuller perspective ... particularly, God is loving in one way but can be hateful in another.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimcintosh (Post 5833535)
God's love for you is infinite, for me is infinite, for the rock in my garden is infinite.

God loves me more than the rock.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimcintosh (Post 5833585)
As to your second point, we are all a mixture of sin and goodness. All of us -- only Jesus and Mary were exempt. The greatest saints repeatedly tell us they are also the greatest sinners. I like to think that I have more goodness that badness within me, but I struggle. We all do. We have things the open us up to God's love and we have things which close us off from God's love.

Are you saying that saints had just as much sin in them as holiness? Or is it the case that the saint's own sin was more apparent to him than the sin of anyone else's?

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimcintosh (Post 5833585)
There's an autobiography written by Rudolf Hoess, the commandant of Auschwitz, which is a fascinating read. This is a man who was overseeing the murder of millions of people who went home at night to his loving wife and daughters. They clearly found something lovable in this man who we would see as a monster. Eva Braun saw a side of Hitler with which she was deeply in love.

The devil can take beautiful and charming forms too. But we're not talking about externals (whether it be physique or personality or whatever) but one's heart and whether it's full of sin or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimcintosh (Post 5833585)
We all have goodness and badness -- one could say evil or sin -- within us. It is thus to be human. God loves us. Since God is infinite, God's love is infinite. We are the ones who block that love. If we do so completely, we believe that we will do so for all eternity. This we call hell. It does not mean that God does not love us infinitely; it only means that we have chosen to block ourselves from that love.

Yes, we are the ones that block the love of God. Thus, in mortal sin, do we have the love of God? ... well, NO in one sense. God still loves us in the sense of trying to get us into heaven and wanting what's best for us, and in the sense that He sees our existence as good, for our very existence is a reflection of Himself. But His love decreases in us and we reject Him, and in that sense He loves us less. Also, He hates us in the sense that He fights us for trying to thwart His goal.

If we don't acknowledge that last legitimate usage of hate, we potentially breed atheists who easily see how we very explicitly contradict those various Scriptural passages.

For those who still disagree .... please, define what you mean by love and hate. Otherwise this discussion's going nowhere.

jkiernan56 Oct 17, '09 12:22 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jimcintosh (Post 5833535)
You can say that God always hated or God always loved, but you cannot say that God used to love and now hates or used to hate and now loves or used to love a little now loves more. It is just impossible if you want to believe in an infinite God then to say that God changes is to say that there is something that God was not and now is. That implies that God was lacking in something is now lacking in something which is impossible. God is infinite. This is basic theology here.

You and I are on the same page with basic theology. God is infinitely perfect. God lacks nothing. God needs nothing. God could have continued in BEING for all eternity without every creating anything or anyone. God is a COMMUNITY of Three Persons infinitely and eternally loving one another. God is completely happy and does not need us. Wanting us is not the same thing as needing us.

By saying that God loves us more the more we grow in holiness DOES NOT IMPLY God has changed in someway. We both agree that God does not change. It is you and I who change. How we change is the subject. If we grow in holiness, there is a something IN US that has changed - not in God. If we grow in vice (evil), there is something IN US that has changed - not in God. If you accept the fact that it is You and I who change and not God, then that does seemingly present a problem by saying what God "loves" or "hates" in us also changes.

Let me try this analogy. You know that the moon has no light of its own. The only light that the moon has comes from the Sun. Let's suppose that we are able to move the position of the moon in relationship to the Sun. Let's suppose we can move the moon closer or further away from the Sun. Lets also acknowledge that the Sun does not change position or intensity of its rays in any way, shape, or form. Let's suppose that we move (change) the position of the moon to be closer to the Sun. What do you think the consequence of that change is? Does it take on more of the lightness of the Sun and become brighter? Does it shine more because it is closer to the Sun? On the other hand, lets suppose we move (change) the position of the moon to be further away from the Sun. Does the moon's brightness lessen in any way? Again, let me emphasize that the Sun has not moved ONE IOTA. It is still in the same position.

When I am talking about growing in holiness or evil, I am speaking about a person who is growing closer to Christ (THE SON) or further away from Christ (the perfect image of God). As we grow closer to Christ, the more of His image we shine. The further away we get from Christ, the less of His image shines through us. This is the sense and context I am speaking about that God "loves" or "hates" IN US changes according to how we change.

God does not gain or loose anything. God is perfect. It is us that is gaining or loosing something. God can only love what is good and holy. The more that goodness and holiness grows in us, there is something "more in us" that God loves. God is still God. He doesn't change as you so well stated as basic theology. The part about God loving us more or hating us more - is ALL ABOUT US and what has changed IN US - not God.

tonyrey Oct 17, '09 4:39 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jkiernan56 (Post 5833084)
I believe you are the one who is ignorant and have lost sight of the forest because of all the trees.

That remark is uncharitable.
Quote:

Whether God did or did not pull the plug on a child for a first offense uttered blashemy is not for you or me to determine. That story is just A TREE and misses the whole point. St. Alphonsus Liguori wrote an article "On The Number of Sins Beyond Which God Pardons No More" which I wholeheartedly agree with. Here it is -
The fact that a saint has been canonised does not mean he was infallible...
Quote:

I would like to ask you a question and I would like you to answer it very specifically. Lets assume for the sake of this question that Adolph Hitler went to hell after he died. (We don't know that for a fact, but lets assume that for the sake of this question).Would you please tell me what does God love about Hitler in Hell? I know God loves Hitler in the sense that He gives Hitler his existence. But please tell me WHAT ELSE about Hitler that God loves if he is in Hell???
We do not know to what extent Hitler was responsible. He may well have been possessed... Even if he was responsible it is not for us to judge him as deserving eternal misery. It is not even our business to establish rules about what happens after we die. All we know for certain is that hell exists because it is part of the teaching of Christ. The rest is idle speculation...
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There is a point where a person has nothing "lovable" about them other than the fact that they exist. That place or state of being is called Hell.
No one can possibly know that a person has nothing "lovable".

Quote:

You say the Lord continues to suffer in heaven for those in hell? Hmmmmmm ....
"And He shall take away all their tears and death will be no more ... " as Revelations tells us.
Jesus who is fully human like you and me, will also have no more tears.
Do you think that Jesus does not share the suffering of others? That God is indifferent to what happens in this world?
Quote:

In fact, since hell is fixed and absolute, the only tears I believe Jesus still sheds are for you and me who are still on pilgrimage.
Free will must be a sharing in God's power because it enables us to reject His love. There is no reason to suppose we lose our freedom when we die. If we did we would be incapable of love. So there is no reason to suppose those who are in hell lose their freedom and will never repent. We do know that God is infinitely merciful.... and that Jesus died for everyone without exception... We should leave the rest to God...

Areopagite Oct 17, '09 6:29 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tonyrey (Post 5834480)
Free will must be a sharing in God's power because it enables us to reject His love. There is no reason to suppose we lose our freedom when we die. If we did we would be incapable of love. So there is no reason to suppose those who are in hell lose their freedom and will never repent. We do know that God is infinitely merciful.... and that Jesus died for everyone without exception... We should leave the rest to God...

Depends what you mean by "freedom." There are many definitions. One definition is "the ability to pursue the good." Souls in heaven retain that freedom. But if you mean "the ability to commit sin" then the souls in heaven do not have that freedom. The souls nonetheless still love God, as they had made the free will choice to love Him on earth. The reason they will not reject God in heaven is because they can no longer lie to themselves because the truth is fully exposed to them, such that no lie is possible. In short.

Also, can you cite a source (of any Church document or saint or anything) that says the souls in hell can repent? Aquinas rejected it as well as many others. In fact, the only people who argue that the souls in hell can repent seem to be the heretics. There is absolutely nothing in Church tradition (correct me if I'm wrong) that lends evidence that the Church ever believed that in any way. But maybe I'm wrong.

Benadam Oct 17, '09 6:54 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Earthly life exists in a state of 'becoming'. When we die we enter into the eternal state which is a state of changelessness. The reason we, or any creature is fit to judge is because we have entered into an eternal condition or state. A changeless condition or state. No one who is in a state of eternally rejecting God is able to enter a state of becoming and change their attitude towards God and begin loving Him and so repent.

A creature in an eternal state of rejecting God is not worthy of love. hat's why we don't pray for souls in hell. It's futile. Love is an act of will. God doesn't engage in acts that are futile. God doesn't love the devil.


In eternity God is revealed to the creature in as much as it is proper to the creature to recieve God. If the creature rejects God after recieving the fullness of God there is no more that can be done to change the creatures attitude towards God.

In giving Himself fully to the creature God has loved the creature and if God is rejected in this fullness there is no more that God can do. God doesn't eternally give Himself to a creature who eternally rejects Him.

God does not love the Devil.

jkiernan56 Oct 17, '09 11:24 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jimcintosh (Post 5833585)

Since God is infinite, God's love is infinite.

I know I am going to catch hell for this, but here goes - LOL.

Your statement about God's infinite love is both true and false depending on the context.
God's love is infinite between the three Persons of the Trinity. I do not believe God's love for mankind is infinite. Why? Because we are finite.

God the Father's love for His eternal Son is infinite.
The Son's love for the Father is infinite.
The love of the Father for the Son and the Son for the Father is infinite - WHO is the Holy Spirit.
In the Holy Trinity, God's love is infinite. I totally agree.

Where I disagree is saying God's love for man is infinite. I can already loudly hear your objections. But before you write me off, please let me explain what I mean by this.

God does not love us infinitely because we are not infinite. We are finite. The love of Christ on the cross was an infinite act of love - but for whom? His Father. Christ saying YES to His Father and surrendering Himself to the Father to be crucified on a cross for our sins was an infinite act of love BY THE SON FOR THE FATHER.. It was infinite because it was done by the 2nd Person of the Holy Trinity who is infinite. It is efficacious for the sins of the world because it was an INFINITE ACT OF LOVE by the Son FOR THE FATHER. Only in that context is the cross of Christ an act of infinite love.

It could only be an infinite act of love for us IF WE WERE INFINITE. Does God love each of us infinitely? Does God does love everyone exactly same? I believe the answer is a clear - NO!!! He loves each of us as much of us there is to love. Some people in Heaven are loved MORE by God. The greater the goodness in each person, the more is in them for God to love.

The more they are loved, the more God's life shines in and through their soul. Mary will shine the brightest in Heaven. She is the one who is most loved by God. If you think of your soul as a cup that is able to hold water, some souls are able to hold more water than others in heaven. Some have bigger containers. All will be full in heaven, but some in heaven will contain more of God's love than others.

God does not love us infinitely, but only the amount to which He sees the image of His Son in each of us. His act of love on the cross was infinite - but only infinite by the Son (who is infinite) for the Father (who is infinite).

I can already hear the wolves howling .... .LOL

Areopagite Oct 18, '09 12:36 am

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jkiernan56 (Post 5835411)
I know I am going to catch hell for this, but here goes - LOL.

Your statement about God's infinite love is both true and false depending on the context.
God's love is infinite between the three Persons of the Trinity. I do not believe God's love for mankind is infinite. Why? Because we are finite.

God the Father's love for His eternal Son is infinite.
The Son's love for the Father is infinite.
The love of the Father for the Son and the Son for the Father is infinite - WHO is the Holy Spirit.
In the Holy Trinity, God's love is infinite. I totally agree.

Where I disagree is saying God's love for man is infinite. I can already loudly hear your objections. But before you write me off, please let me explain what I mean by this.

God does not love us infinitely because we are not infinite. We are finite. The love of Christ on the cross was an infinite act of love - but for whom? His Father. Christ saying YES to His Father and surrendering Himself to the Father to be crucified on a cross for our sins was an infinite act of love BY THE SON FOR THE FATHER.. It was infinite because it was done by the 2nd Person of the Holy Trinity who is infinite. It is efficacious for the sins of the world because it was an INFINITE ACT OF LOVE by the Son FOR THE FATHER. Only in that context is the cross of Christ an act of infinite love.

It could only be an infinite act of love for us IF WE WERE INFINITE. Does God love each of us infinitely? Does God does love everyone exactly same? I believe the answer is a clear - NO!!! He loves each of us as much of us there is to love. Some people in Heaven are loved MORE by God. The greater the goodness in each person, the more is in them for God to love.

The more they are loved, the more God's life shines in and through their soul. Mary will shine the brightest in Heaven. She is the one who is most loved by God. If you think of your soul as a cup that is able to hold water, some souls are able to hold more water than others in heaven. Some have bigger containers. All will be full in heaven, but some in heaven will contain more of God's love than others.

God does not love us infinitely, but only the amount to which He sees the image of His Son in each of us. His act of love on the cross was infinite - but only infinite by the Son (who is infinite) for the Father (who is infinite).

I can already hear the wolves howling .... .LOL

Jkiernan, you may be right. I don't have the credentials at the moment to disprove this.

However, I am inclined (purely because it "feels right") to say that God does love us infinitely, but in varying infinite amounts. I explained this a bit (well, not really), when I explained how there are different sizes of infinity (which high level mathematics even admits). I would say that if God sees the image of His Son in us at all, then right there I think He has infinite love for us. However, this is not to say that His love isn't increased when the image of the Son is greater in someone else.

But, heck, I might be off. I suppose "infinity" must be defined. And that's a headache.

tonyrey Oct 18, '09 1:24 am

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Areopagite (Post 5834781)
Depends what you mean by "freedom." There are many definitions. One definition is "the ability to pursue the good." Souls in heaven retain that freedom. But if you mean "the ability to commit sin" then the souls in heaven do not have that freedom. The souls nonetheless still love God, as they had made the free will choice to love Him on earth. The reason they will not reject God in heaven is because they can no longer lie to themselves because the truth is fully exposed to them, such that no lie is possible. In short.

The most adequate definition of freedom is the power of self-determination. It certainly entails the ability to reject God's love and defy His will. If the persons in heaven cannot reject God they are no longer free and incapable of love in the full sense of the word. It would mean that the account of the fallen angels is false...
Quote:

Also, can you cite a source (of any Church document or saint or anything) that says the souls in hell can repent? Aquinas rejected it as well as many others. In fact, the only people who argue that the souls in hell can repent seem to be the heretics. There is absolutely nothing in Church tradition (correct me if I'm wrong) that lends evidence that the Church ever believed that in any way. But maybe I'm wrong.
I am not aware of anything in Church tradition that states that those who are in hell have lost their greatest gift by which they most resemble God: their power to choose for themselves and shape their own destiny. I am not denying that they may choose to remain in hell for all eternity but I do deny that they can be beyond the power of redemption by God's infinite mercy and love which are evident in the suffering and death of Our Lord on the Cross. If that is heresy then I am most certainly a heretic...

jimcintosh Oct 18, '09 6:43 am

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jkiernan56 (Post 5835411)
I know I am going to catch hell for this, but here goes - LOL.

Your statement about God's infinite love is both true and false depending on the context.
God's love is infinite between the three Persons of the Trinity. I do not believe God's love for mankind is infinite. Why? Because we are finite.

God the Father's love for His eternal Son is infinite.
The Son's love for the Father is infinite.
The love of the Father for the Son and the Son for the Father is infinite - WHO is the Holy Spirit.
In the Holy Trinity, God's love is infinite. I totally agree.

Where I disagree is saying God's love for man is infinite. I can already loudly hear your objections. But before you write me off, please let me explain what I mean by this.

God does not love us infinitely because we are not infinite. We are finite. The love of Christ on the cross was an infinite act of love - but for whom? His Father. Christ saying YES to His Father and surrendering Himself to the Father to be crucified on a cross for our sins was an infinite act of love BY THE SON FOR THE FATHER.. It was infinite because it was done by the 2nd Person of the Holy Trinity who is infinite. It is efficacious for the sins of the world because it was an INFINITE ACT OF LOVE by the Son FOR THE FATHER. Only in that context is the cross of Christ an act of infinite love.

It could only be an infinite act of love for us IF WE WERE INFINITE. Does God love each of us infinitely? Does God does love everyone exactly same? I believe the answer is a clear - NO!!! He loves each of us as much of us there is to love. Some people in Heaven are loved MORE by God. The greater the goodness in each person, the more is in them for God to love.

The more they are loved, the more God's life shines in and through their soul. Mary will shine the brightest in Heaven. She is the one who is most loved by God. If you think of your soul as a cup that is able to hold water, some souls are able to hold more water than others in heaven. Some have bigger containers. All will be full in heaven, but some in heaven will contain more of God's love than others.

God does not love us infinitely, but only the amount to which He sees the image of His Son in each of us. His act of love on the cross was infinite - but only infinite by the Son (who is infinite) for the Father (who is infinite).

I can already hear the wolves howling .... .LOL

Hahaha. No, I'm not going to howl, only restate my point. God's is love. God is infinite. God's love for each of us, then, is infinite.

I like your metaphor of the moon. Perhaps Mary, being conceived without sin, can accept that love most completely and therefore appear to be more loved. The rest of us block some or all of that love and therefore appear to be less loved.

How we appear or how much we are open to God's love cannot limit God's love for us. God is love. God is infinite.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Areopagite (Post 5833835)
Are you saying that saints had just as much sin in them as holiness? Or is it the case that the saint's own sin was more apparent to him than the sin of anyone else's?

My dad used to tell me "the more you know, the more you know you don't know." That is, I don't know much about physics. I know some basic, high school material. I think that I know a bit but if I began to study physics then I would encounter whole areas about which I know nothing. Each of us, whatever our careers or fields of study, realize how little we know about the subject.

I think the same is true in our relation to God. I think most of us think we are basically good people. When someone dies, no one talks about purgatory or hell. We say "they are in a better place" or "they are at peace now".

But, like me studying physics, the more I delve into my relationship with God, the more depth I see. The more I see in how many ways I am closing myself off to God's infinite love, that is, how much I sin. The closer I get to God, the more I see how far away and unknowing God is. It is in this way that the more holy a person is, the more they realize how much of a sinner they are.

Like anything, this way is fraught with danger. This can lead to the "dark night of the soul". Read the letters of Mother Teresa to see how this can lead to a total estrangement from God.

It may be easier and more comforting to keep our childhood ideas about God -- that is, a wise father with a long white beard, a very European-looking Jesus and a bird. It may be easier to think of a god who withholds love or even hates, as an earthly parent can, or who gets jealous, who sends down lightning bolts on the evil, etc. This may be easier and more comforting, but, like my knowledge of physics, it leaves me ignorant and stagnate.

jkiernan56 Oct 18, '09 8:24 am

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Areopagite (Post 5835469)
Jkiernan, you may be right. I don't have the credentials at the moment to disprove this.

However, I am inclined (purely because it "feels right") to say that God does love us infinitely, but in varying infinite amounts. I explained this a bit (well, not really), when I explained how there are different sizes of infinity (which high level mathematics even admits). I would say that if God sees the image of His Son in us at all, then right there I think He has infinite love for us. However, this is not to say that His love isn't increased when the image of the Son is greater in someone else.

But, heck, I might be off. I suppose "infinity" must be defined. And that's a headache.

You are the one who got me into this mode of thinking about how does God love us other than ontologically. I'm not going to let you off the hook just yet ... LOL

Different amounts of infinite love ... hmmmm .... I'll have to ponder that one. :)

If God "loves" us more the more we grow in holiness, that raises all kinds of questions. I do know some people in heaven will be MORE full of God's love than others. All will be full, but some will be MORE full than others. I used the analogy of the varying size of cups. Some people will have the size of a thimble, others the size of a tea cup, and still others the size of a 5 gallon jug and so forth. Each of us according to how we cooperate with God's plan here and now determine the degree or capacity to how much of God's love our soul will fully contain. I do not buy into the idea that we will all shine the exact same in heaven. Some people will shine brighter than others. Mary will shine the brightess next to her Son. Mother Teresa of Calcutta will shine very bright with God's love and life. She already did here on earth. Clearly Teresa was a citizen of heaven here on earth (in my estimation). Other people will not shine as bright as her. All will be fully loved in heaven, but in that sense some will be MORE fully loved than others. God may love us infinitely, but how much of that infinite love we can receive and contain depends on how we live our life here and now and seek to love God and others ... including these annoying and obnoxious athiests and agnostics on this web site ... LOL

tonyrey Oct 18, '09 3:47 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jimcintosh (Post 5835933)
I think most of us think we are basically good people. When someone dies, no one talks about purgatory or hell. We say "they are in a better place" or "they are at peace now".

A very important observation. We are basically good people but we tend to think we are better than we are because we have avoided serious sins - forgetting that probably our worst sins are sins of omission., e.g. ignoring the plight of those who are worse off than we are. Of course there is a limit to what we can do but I suspect most of us don't reach that limit...

Benadam Oct 18, '09 6:15 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
[quote]
Quote:

Originally Posted by tonyrey (Post 5835487)
The most adequate definition of freedom is the power of self-determination.

Tony, self determination is a part of our nature as rational beings. Freedom as the Church defines it is the ability to do what ought to be done. IOW true freedom is the ability to do what God wills.

Areopagite Oct 18, '09 6:26 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jkiernan56 (Post 5836123)
You are the one who got me into this mode of thinking about how does God love us other than ontologically. I'm not going to let you off the hook just yet ... LOL

Understandable.:)

And thanks again, Jkiernan, for your support. You have been most reasonable and encouraging. :thumbsup:

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkiernan56 (Post 5836123)
Different amounts of infinite love ... hmmmm .... I'll have to ponder that one. :)

If God "loves" us more the more we grow in holiness, that raises all kinds of questions. I do know some people in heaven will be MORE full of God's love than others. All will be full, but some will be MORE full than others. I used the analogy of the varying size of cups. Some people will have the size of a thimble, others the size of a tea cup, and still others the size of a 5 gallon jug and so forth. Each of us according to how we cooperate with God's plan here and now determine the degree or capacity to how much of God's love our soul will fully contain. I do not buy into the idea that we will all shine the exact same in heaven. Some people will shine brighter than others. Mary will shine the brightess next to her Son. Mother Teresa of Calcutta will shine very bright with God's love and life. She already did here on earth. Clearly Teresa was a citizen of heaven here on earth (in my estimation). Other people will not shine as bright as her. All will be fully loved in heaven, but in that sense some will be MORE fully loved than others. God may love us infinitely, but how much of that infinite love we can receive and contain depends on how we live our life here and now and seek to love God and others ... including these annoying and obnoxious athiests and agnostics on this web site ... LOL

Yes, I agree with that cup analogy completely. I'm also saying that perhaps it can be paradoxically reconciled with the idea that God loves everyone infinitely too. That is, we have varying amounts of infinite divine love. (because, once again, there are different sizes of infinity ... as attested to by both philosophy and mathematics)

But perhaps to only go about this in a truly reasonable way would be to define what "infinite love" actually means. I, for one, have no idea.

jkiernan56 Oct 18, '09 6:43 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Areopagite (Post 5837669)
Understandable.:)

And thanks again, Jkiernan, for your support. You have been most reasonable and encouraging. :thumbsup:



Yes, I agree with that cup analogy completely. I'm also saying that perhaps it can be paradoxically reconciled with the idea that God loves everyone infinitely too. That is, we have varying amounts of infinite divine love. (because, once again, there are different sizes of infinity ... as attested to by both philosophy and mathematics)

But perhaps to only go about this in a truly reasonable way would be to define what "infinite love" actually means. I, for one, have no idea.

I concede to the idea that God loves each of us infinitely. How much of God's love we are able to receive and shine to others will depend on our cooperation with God's grace. I recalled the scripture where Jesus is quoted as saying "as the Father has loved me, so also have I loved you." The Father loves the Son infinitely and thus the Son has loved us by His infinite act of love on the cross - LOVE FOR THE FATHER and FOR US. How much of that infinite love each of us will be able to receive is variable. Some will shine brighter in heaven than others. In that context, I am rephrasing what I said earlier that God loves some people more, the more they grow in holiness. For some, their is more goodness in them to love. There is more of the image of Christ shining through their soul. Mary shines the brightest because she of all women is the most blessed, full of grace, and it is she who most mirrors the holiness and image of her Son/son.

Areopagite Oct 18, '09 8:12 pm

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jkiernan56 (Post 5837728)
I concede to the idea that God loves each of us infinitely. How much of God's love we are able to receive and shine to others will depend on our cooperation with God's grace. I recalled the scripture where Jesus is quoted as saying "as the Father has loved me, so also have I loved you." The Father loves the Son infinitely and thus the Son has loved us by His infinite act of love on the cross - LOVE FOR THE FATHER and FOR US. How much of that infinite love each of us will be able to receive is variable. Some will shine brighter in heaven than others. In that context, I am rephrasing what I said earlier that God loves some people more, the more they grow in holiness. For some, their is more goodness in them to love. There is more of the image of Christ shining through their soul. Mary shines the brightest because she of all women is the most blessed, full of grace, and it is she who most mirrors the holiness and image of her Son/son.

Yeah, I think I'm on board with you here. This sounds pretty good.

jimcintosh Oct 19, '09 4:15 am

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Areopagite (Post 5838003)
Yeah, I think I'm on board with you here. This sounds pretty good.

This is great. A long discussion leading to one conclusion. Amazing! If this could only happen in, say, the U.S. Congress. :)

And what is our answer to the initial question? Does God love the Devil?

jkiernan56 Oct 19, '09 6:40 am

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jimcintosh (Post 5838664)
This is great. A long discussion leading to one conclusion. Amazing! If this could only happen in, say, the U.S. Congress. :)

And what is our answer to the initial question? Does God love the Devil?

The answer as I've understood it is - Yes, God loves the Devil - but only ONTOLOGICALLY. There is nothing else to love or is "loveable" about the Devil.

rinnie Oct 19, '09 6:48 am

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rinnie (Post 5831421)
Okay lets do this. Lets give it the weekend, Pray on it, and Monday see what we come up with. What a easy question huh? So we thought in the beginning! I too have never been so confused. But I think I got it. But we will see. So lets pray and touch base Mon. Have a wonderful weekend!:D

I have thought about this all weekend and here is what I came up with. In the beginning God made Adam and Eve. And there was the tree. Eve ate from that tree and sinned. Pretty simple. But not really, by her sin she drew Adam into it. So they both separated themself from God by their sin.

Now God was angry with them, not only for sinning but because they would not repent.

Now does God hate Adam and Eve? No he does not. So was the devil at first like Adam? He was good in the beginning. But he chose to not repent so he chose death, death of the soul.

So no I do not think God hates anyone. But he will let us all choose. We can become good like God and choose heaven, or we can be evil like the devil and choose hell.

But in the beginning we are all Good, and God loves us all, but we can become evil. And while God does not hate us he hates the evil we do. And if we do not repent and change we also will be separated from God. God gave us free will and will not take that away from us, no one can.

The bottom line is rather we say we Love God or not does not matter. Its how we live and what we do to show God our love. So the devil wanted to be evil. So by making his choice he could not turn back. Just like us when we die. Even though God loves us, if we do evil we also will be separated from God. But he still loves us, but like I said before we choose to not love him.

The problem with the devil was he was also created out of goodness and made to do goodness but rejected it. So by becomming bad he was thrown out of the Garden of Eden and will never return. Because he will never repent. Just like God makes everything in this world for the good, man can make it bad and evil. And now God rejects the devil and anyone who wants anything to do with him.

jkiernan56 Oct 19, '09 7:04 am

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rinnie (Post 5839002)

And now God rejects the devil and anyone who wants anything to do with him.

Please tell me what is there about the Devil that God still loves? What is "loveable" about the Devil? Just saying God loves the Devil doesn't say anything. If God still loves the Devil, how does God still love the Devil? You say "God rejects the devil". Isn't that another way of saying "hates"?

In my current understanding, God "loves" the Devil in one way and "hates" the Devil in another. God "loves" the Devil ontologically by giving the Devil existence. But other than that there is nothing else "loveable" about the Devil. In that sense He "hates" the Devil - or as you said so well "rejects". There is nothing "loveable" about the Devil other than his existence.

rinnie Oct 19, '09 7:18 am

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jkiernan56 (Post 5835411)
I know I am going to catch hell for this, but here goes - LOL.

Your statement about God's infinite love is both true and false depending on the context.
God's love is infinite between the three Persons of the Trinity. I do not believe God's love for mankind is infinite. Why? Because we are finite.

God the Father's love for His eternal Son is infinite.
The Son's love for the Father is infinite.
The love of the Father for the Son and the Son for the Father is infinite - WHO is the Holy Spirit.
In the Holy Trinity, God's love is infinite. I totally agree.

Where I disagree is saying God's love for man is infinite
. I can already loudly hear your objections. But before you write me off, please let me explain what I mean by this.

God does not love us infinitely because we are not infinite. We are finite. The love of Christ on the cross was an infinite act of love - but for whom? His Father. Christ saying YES to His Father and surrendering Himself to the Father to be crucified on a cross for our sins was an infinite act of love BY THE SON FOR THE FATHER.. It was infinite because it was done by the 2nd Person of the Holy Trinity who is infinite. It is efficacious for the sins of the world because it was an INFINITE ACT OF LOVE by the Son FOR THE FATHER. Only in that context is the cross of Christ an act of infinite love.

It could only be an infinite act of love for us IF WE WERE INFINITE. Does God love each of us infinitely? Does God does love everyone exactly same? I believe the answer is a clear - NO!!! He loves each of us as much of us there is to love. Some people in Heaven are loved MORE by God. The greater the goodness in each person, the more is in them for God to love.

The more they are loved, the more God's life shines in and through their soul. Mary will shine the brightest in Heaven. She is the one who is most loved by God. If you think of your soul as a cup that is able to hold water, some souls are able to hold more water than others in heaven. Some have bigger containers. All will be full in heaven, but some in heaven will contain more of God's love than others.

God does not love us infinitely, but only the amount to which He sees the image of His Son in each of us. His act of love on the cross was infinite - but only infinite by the Son (who is infinite) for the Father (who is infinite).

I can already hear the wolves howling .... .LOL

I do disagree with you and so does eph. 3:17-19 Christ's love surpasses knowledge.

When we are born we all have Grace from God. Because of his death on the Cross we were freed from Sin. Now we can keep free or sin. Its by the grace of God that we have the free will to do what we please not what pleases God.

If God did not love us we would not give us the grace to choose. We would have no reason for being. IT would all be done for us. But God loved the devil the same as us. The devil also was given Grace from God. But he choose to throw it away.

In Matt 5 IT tells you God gives his blessing to good and evil people. So it shows you he also loves evil people and gives them also the chance to change. If he didn't love evil people why did he give them his Blessing?

rinnie Oct 19, '09 7:29 am

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jkiernan56 (Post 5839066)
Please tell me what is there about the Devil that God still loves? What is "loveable" about the Devil? Just saying God loves the Devil doesn't say anything. If God still loves the Devil, how does God still love the Devil? You say "God rejects the devil". Isn't that another way of saying "hates"?

In my current understanding, God "loves" the Devil in one way and "hates" the Devil in another. God "loves" the Devil ontologically by giving the Devil existence. But other than that there is nothing else "loveable" about the Devil. In that sense He "hates" the Devil - or as you said so well "rejects". There is nothing "loveable" about the Devil other than his existence.

But here is the point does he hate the devil or does he hate the devils works?

Just like when a child is born. God loves that child, that child is inocent. It is that Childs works that send him to heaven or hell do you not agree?

God's love for that Child is always the same unchanging. BUt the Childs love for God is what counts. If it was just Gods love that gets us into heaven would we not all get in? Do you see what I mean?

rinnie Oct 19, '09 7:32 am

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Think what you are saying JK. Either God loves us or he does not? If its his love for us that gains us eternal life you are going back to OSAS way of thinking. And I know you reject that. God's love either grows in us through grace or we toss it and reject it. But even evil people get a shot to change. And Gods grace can do that if we let it.

jkiernan56 Oct 19, '09 7:36 am

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rinnie (Post 5839143)
But here is the point does he hate the devil or does he hate the devils works?

Just like when a child is born. God loves that child, that child is inocent. It is that Childs works that send him to heaven or hell do you not agree?

God's love for that Child is always the same unchanging. BUt the Childs love for God is what counts. If it was just Gods love that gets us into heaven would we not all get in? Do you see what I mean?

You are avoiding answering the question. Please try to be specific. What is still "loveable" about the Devil? Please don't use generalities.

Hint - when God "loves" us, what is it SPECIFICALLY about us that God "loves" or finds "loveable" about us?

rinnie Oct 19, '09 7:46 am

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jkiernan56 (Post 5839173)
You are avoiding answering the question. Please try to be specific. What is still "loveable" about the Devil? Please don't use generalities.

Hint - when God "loves" us, what is it SPECIFICALLY about us that God "loves" or finds "loveable" about us?

Okay let me try this. Remember in the beginning God made the devil right? And he was the best angel. He was Gods best one. Now God loved him. But then he rejected God.



God loves nothing about what the devil became.


But what God loves about the devil is who he was, a image God created, who could have been good, and wonderful.

Let me switch your thinking for a minute. Do you think that God hates you when you sin? Do you think he only loves you when you do good. When we sin do we turn our back on God or does he turn our back on us? Just hang with me here for a minute.

rinnie Oct 19, '09 7:49 am

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Let me play my trump card before we even start the game/

God cannot hate the devil because to hate anyone is a sin. And God is perfect and God cannot sin.

God tells us to love our enemys. But does God tell us to sin, No he does not. He tells us to stay away from evil and evil people. But does he tell us to hate our enemy?

rinnie Oct 19, '09 7:53 am

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Let me go a step further.

In our baptism are we told to hate the devil?

Or do we promise to reject satan and all his empty promises. Where does the church tell us to hate satan. Now I can show you a bible full of telling us to hate his works and empty promises. And we are also told to stay away from him. We are never told to hate him we are told to reject him are we not?

rinnie Oct 19, '09 8:15 am

Re: Does God love the Devil?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jkiernan56 (Post 5839173)
You are avoiding answering the question. Please try to be specific. What is still "loveable" about the Devil? Please don't use generalities.

Hint - when God "loves" us, what is it SPECIFICALLY about us that God "loves" or finds "loveable" about us?

And to say what does God love about us that is easy. Our goodness, our good works. But that is the same thing of saying what does God hate ABOUT us. Thats our sin and hurting others and ourself.

But the question is not what does God love about us and hates about us. Because to hate evil and love good is not the same as hating eachother.

Because if you are right then we can hate anyone who sins. So can we hate eachother?


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