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-   -   Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC (http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=391411)

imkingdad Oct 28, '09 12:40 am

Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
This story denotes how 'Forward in Faith' a traditionalist Group of Anglicans Are delighted at Rome's Overture & Offer and many will be accepting it & coming home
to the Holy Catholic church. I'd like to welcome these Fine Bishops & their Flocks
and pray that many more will avail themselves of this opportunity. Vivat Jesus!

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=17493

StrawberryJam Oct 28, '09 12:46 am

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
What took Rome so long to do this I wonder?:confused:

wardrandolph Oct 28, '09 2:05 am

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by StrawberryJam (Post 5872748)
What took Rome so long to do this I wonder?:confused:

Some of these Bishops sent a letter to Holy Father.The Holy Father grated their request.Praise God for His will being done.

CDNowak Oct 28, '09 5:53 am

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by StrawberryJam (Post 5872748)
What took Rome so long to do this I wonder?:confused:

Until last year, there was hope that the Anglicans as a whole would move back towards full union (a path which they left in the early 90's). With the lack of leadership shown surrounding the Lambeth Conference and the notable divide that spawned the 'counter-conference' in Jerusalem, the Catholic Church recognized that the situation had changed.

crazzeto Oct 28, '09 6:20 am

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Praise God, the first steps towards reunification are looking very promising.

imkingdad Oct 28, '09 11:34 am

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Step By Step Jesus will Gather his Flock.
He will give many at least 1 more chance to repent & make amends.

Let us Pray for an Outpouring of the Holy Spirit to enkindle Hearts filled with Love of Jesus in the hearts of Peoples everywhere.

frecklemom Oct 28, '09 11:44 am

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by StrawberryJam (Post 5872748)
What took Rome so long to do this I wonder?:confused:

The father in the Prodigal didn't need to ask that question. Luke15: 11-32;)

Gerry Hunter Oct 28, '09 12:13 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by StrawberryJam (Post 5872748)
What took Rome so long to do this I wonder?:confused:

There had often been an element of "we are already catholic, so recognize us as such" in Anglican approaches to Rome in the past. That was never a possibility. Now, the approaches have led to a situation where appropriate pastoral and liturgical accommodation is offered to Anglicans who are prepared to become Catholic. There's been a change in what was asked for, that has led to what has been offered.

Blessings,

Gerry

manualman Oct 28, '09 12:20 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by imkingdad (Post 5872740)
This story denotes how 'Forward in Faith' a traditionalist Group of Anglicans Are delighted at Rome's Overture & Offer and many will be accepting it & coming home
to the Holy Catholic church. I'd like to welcome these Fine Bishops & their Flocks
and pray that many more will avail themselves of this opportunity. Vivat Jesus!

The really impressive thing is that these "fine bishops" will be swallowing the humble pill of admitting they really aren't bishops (or even priests) at all under this offer. IIRC, they will be offered the opportunity for priestly ordination after they convert, but their current status is not being acknowledged as priests.

That's a big pill to swallow, and I wonder if it is even necessary. I wonder if the document will address the potential for the "Dutch Touch" ordinations to have given some of these Anglican clergy genuine Holy Orders??

Where's GKC? You holding your breath??

gmcbroom Oct 28, '09 12:33 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
I don't know GKC. But from the posts I've done to which he's kindly replied leads me to believe he'll likely stay put; and rightfully so. Afterall, if he doesn't see the changes in the catholic church, he's looking for then why move to it?

GKC Oct 28, '09 12:43 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by manualman (Post 5874360)
The really impressive thing is that these "fine bishops" will be swallowing the humble pill of admitting they really aren't bishops (or even priests) at all under this offer. IIRC, they will be offered the opportunity for priestly ordination after they convert, but their current status is not being acknowledged as priests.

That's a big pill to swallow, and I wonder if it is even necessary. I wonder if the document will address the potential for the "Dutch Touch" ordinations to have given some of these Anglican clergy genuine Holy Orders??

Where's GKC? You holding your breath??

Nope. But watching with great interest, reading everything, and not making any predictions. And I too wonder if any use of sub conditione ordination would present itself. It would say a great deal. Charity? Or the last remnants of the Recusants' Revenge?

But this is not a program I am interested in, personally. As I posted in some detail here, in one of the multiple threads on the Pope's offer (no idea where), I could not do what I would be required to do; affirm without mental reservation all dogma and de fide doctrine as held by the RCC. First up example would be this issue of Apostolicae Curae. I know the story too well. I wouldn't cavil on this point, if all that were in question was whether I would be a bad RC; the RCC is full of bad RCs. I have no desire to be a dishonest RC, though.

GKC

Anglicanus-Catholicus

GKC Oct 28, '09 12:51 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by gmcbroom (Post 5874422)
I don't know GKC. But from the posts I've done to which he's kindly replied leads me to believe he'll likely stay put; and rightfully so. Afterall, if he doesn't see the changes in the catholic church, he's looking for then why move to it?


You know me well enough, then.

I wouldn't really say that I'm looking for the changes; they are not the sort of things, in their nature, than could change. But I watch, anyhow. Always interested in seeing what the bulk of Catholicism is doing.

GKC

Anglicanus-Catholicus

oneGODoneCHURCH Oct 28, '09 1:48 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
I thank God that this is happening. It gives hope and light to greter unity amoung all the faithful. I do have one Questions that I have not seen asked. I would assume that there maybe one or two former Catholics in the Angelicans that converted to Angelicanism only because they had divorced and remarried and this was the close to what they had in Catholic Church. Does anyone know how they will be handled if they come back under this proposal?

gurneyhalleck1 Oct 28, '09 3:54 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by oneGODoneCHURCH (Post 5874677)
I thank God that this is happening. It gives hope and light to greter unity amoung all the faithful. I do have one Questions that I have not seen asked. I would assume that there maybe one or two former Catholics in the Angelicans that converted to Angelicanism only because they had divorced and remarried and this was the close to what they had in Catholic Church. Does anyone know how they will be handled if they come back under this proposal?

Angelicanism? Sorry, I'm a teacher, my eyes seize upon spelling! LOL...Anglicanism! Tisk Tisk! Angelicanism sounds like a heresy believing one can become angelic! :D

BernadetteM Oct 28, '09 4:44 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
I wouldn't expect too many of TAC or any other group coming into the Church. The reason it took so long for Rome to announce this, is because from what I have read months ago Hepworth wanted to be an Anglican Catholic, with married priests, not just the ones coming in now who are married, but future priests. It sounded like he wanted an Anglican church within the Catholic Church.

Even members of TAC feel that he wans't above board with them about what was going on in his conversatiions with Rome.

I have spoken to two TAC priests, both in the same parish, the Rector says wait and see what the Constitution says, to me that means are they giving into our demands and if so I'll go along with it. The other priest is very excited about it, but since he is not the Rector will have no say. He is also over 70 years old and I don't know if he would be allowed to have a parish.

I am sure that some of these Anglicans truely want to be part of the Catholic Church under a Personal Ordinariate, but many who just continue on their way. There have been several Anglican break away groups in my state that are no longer in existence. From my perspective I see just more and more of these groups forming as they don't seem to be able to agree on issues, just as the protestants are always starting a new church when they don't agree with their pastor or a teaching.

I pray that if not now, in the future many of these Anglicans will decide to become Catholic, but for now I feel that there won't be thousands. I believe that there have been at least two Anglican Bishops who have become Catholic and who knows what will happen in the days to come.

I am just happy that Ordinariates who will be part of Church law now, will be able to open the doors for the future and bypass Bishops who have not been friendly in the past to former Episcopalians nor the TLM for that matter either.

This provision might also bring back Latin Rite Catholics who are very unhappy in their NO parishes and don't feel comfortable in a TLM parish.

I am sure that the Holy Spirit will be leading this and has everything under control.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

GKC Oct 28, '09 6:13 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BernadetteM (Post 5875291)
I wouldn't expect too many of TAC or any other group coming into the Church. The reason it took so long for Rome to announce this, is because from what I have read months ago Hepworth wanted to be an Anglican Catholic, with married priests, not just the ones coming in now who are married, but future priests. It sounded like he wanted an Anglican church within the Catholic Church.

Even members of TAC feel that he wans't above board with them about what was going on in his conversatiions with Rome.

I have spoken to two TAC priests, both in the same parish, the Rector says wait and see what the Constitution says, to me that means are they giving into our demands and if so I'll go along with it. The other priest is very excited about it, but since he is not the Rector will have no say. He is also over 70 years old and I don't know if he would be allowed to have a parish.

I am sure that some of these Anglicans truely want to be part of the Catholic Church under a Personal Ordinariate, but many who just continue on their way. There have been several Anglican break away groups in my state that are no longer in existence. From my perspective I see just more and more of these groups forming as they don't seem to be able to agree on issues, just as the protestants are always starting a new church when they don't agree with their pastor or a teaching.

I pray that if not now, in the future many of these Anglicans will decide to become Catholic, but for now I feel that there won't be thousands. I believe that there have been at least two Anglican Bishops who have become Catholic and who knows what will happen in the days to come.

I am just happy that Ordinariates who will be part of Church law now, will be able to open the doors for the future and bypass Bishops who have not been friendly in the past to former Episcopalians nor the TLM for that matter either.

This provision might also bring back Latin Rite Catholics who are very unhappy in their NO parishes and don't feel comfortable in a TLM parish.

I am sure that the Holy Spirit will be leading this and has everything under control.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette


There have been 3 TEC bishops (2 retired) who went to Rome, in the past 5 years or so. And one CoE such, in the past 15 years or so. That's off the top of my head.

GKC

theinquisitive Oct 28, '09 6:40 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by StrawberryJam (Post 5872748)
What took Rome so long to do this I wonder?:confused:

>>>stubbornness<<< :shrug: On both sides!!!!!
Worry about the scale of the problems it would (will) bring with it?? (married Anglican priests).

What to do about the (ex) Catholic priest who "deflected",became an Anglican priest,married,has a family.......?
He may allso want to "come home" :hmmm:

By the way .... gurneyhalleck1
Adherents of *Anglicanism* are called Anglicans.
Anglican originates from the medieval Latin phrase, ecclesia anglicana,dating to at least 1246 meaning the *English Church* nothing at all to do with "angels", but then, you as a teacher will know this.......

GKC Oct 28, '09 7:03 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by theinquisitive (Post 5875682)
>>>stubbornness<<< :shrug: On both sides!!!!!
Worry about the scale of the problems it would (will) bring with it?? (married Anglican priests).

What to do about the (ex) Catholic priest who "deflected",became an Anglican priest,married,has a family.......?
He may allso want to "come home" :hmmm:

By the way .... gurneyhalleck1
Adherents of *Anglicanism* are called Anglicans.
Anglican originates from the medieval Latin phrase, ecclesia anglicana,dating to at least 1246 meaning the *English Church* nothing at all to do with "angels", but then, you as a teacher will know this.......


I think Gurney will know that for a couple of reasons.


GKC

Anglicanus-Catholicus

gurneyhalleck1 Oct 28, '09 9:40 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by theinquisitive (Post 5875682)
>>>stubbornness<<< :shrug: On both sides!!!!!
Worry about the scale of the problems it would (will) bring with it?? (married Anglican priests).

What to do about the (ex) Catholic priest who "deflected",became an Anglican priest,married,has a family.......?
He may allso want to "come home" :hmmm:

By the way .... gurneyhalleck1
Adherents of *Anglicanism* are called Anglicans.
Anglican originates from the medieval Latin phrase, ecclesia anglicana,dating to at least 1246 meaning the *English Church* nothing at all to do with "angels", but then, you as a teacher will know this.......

You must not have gotten my humor. The poster wrote "angelicanism" instead of "Anglicanism," a spelling error. I was joking that that must refer to a religion based on the goal of becoming an angel. I do indeed know full well what the term Anglican means and it's origins seeing as how I'm attending an Anglican church at this time and did so in the past for around seven years....:eek: Go back to my post and re-read it. I was just making a bad joke...didn't land evidently! lol :D

thirdn6 Oct 28, '09 9:57 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Hmm, well, check out your yellow pages tomorrow. It might already be listed as a church. How's that to be called angelican as a member? Sweet! :D

GKC Oct 28, '09 10:14 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by gurneyhalleck1 (Post 5876341)
You must not have gotten my humor. The poster wrote "angelicanism" instead of "Anglicanism," a spelling error. I was joking that that must refer to a religion based on the goal of becoming an angel. I do indeed know full well what the term Anglican means and it's origins seeing as how I'm attending an Anglican church at this time and did so in the past for around seven years....:eek: Go back to my post and re-read it. I was just making a bad joke...didn't land evidently! lol :D



"Non Angli Sed Angeli"


GKC

Anglicanus-Catholicus

gurneyhalleck1 Oct 28, '09 10:14 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by thirdn6 (Post 5876383)
Hmm, well, check out your yellow pages tomorrow. It might already be listed as a church. How's that to be called angelican as a member? Sweet! :D

You know what, third, you're probably right! In the phonebook they have so many crazy church names that it's mind-numbing. In my area we have one called the "Fortress of Truth" and one called the "Apostolic Truth Tabernacle" and the "Sound of His Voice Fellowship" as well as the "Jubilee Bible Church" and the "Open Door Church...." sigh

We ought to start a thread with a competition to find the most bizarre church name you've ever heard. We teachers do that up at our local week-long science camp. At night around the fire we share the weirdest name of a student we've ever heard. I still win the competition with a girl about 10 years ago that was named "Yomama" LOL

gurneyhalleck1 Oct 28, '09 10:16 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GKC (Post 5876425)
"Non Angli Sed Angeli"


GKC

Anglicanus-Catholicus

With all the Latin you bust out, Jim, you should be in the Roman Catholic Church! LOL...next he'll start kicking in the Greek! Either that or start showing me the schematics for the Blackbird SR 71 LOL:D

GKC Oct 28, '09 10:50 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by gurneyhalleck1 (Post 5876435)
With all the Latin you bust out, Jim, you should be in the Roman Catholic Church! LOL...next he'll start kicking in the Greek! Either that or start showing me the schematics for the Blackbird SR 71 LOL:D

Did I ever tell you what my daughter did, for a living, before I swore her into the Air Force?


GKC

gurneyhalleck1 Oct 29, '09 12:28 am

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GKC (Post 5876514)
Did I ever tell you what my daughter did, for a living, before I swore her into the Air Force?


GKC

If memory serves, she was a Latin teacher? Then she went in the military...

GKC Oct 29, '09 5:40 am

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by gurneyhalleck1 (Post 5876681)
If memory serves, she was a Latin teacher? Then she went in the military...


Etiam.


GKC

manualman Oct 29, '09 7:53 am

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by gurneyhalleck1 (Post 5875120)
Angelicanism? ... Angelicanism sounds like a heresy believing one can become angelic! :D

I thought perhaps EWTN had gone nuts and schismed. (Can that be a verb??)

gurneyhalleck1 Oct 29, '09 9:30 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by manualman (Post 5877400)
I thought perhaps EWTN had gone nuts and schismed. (Can that be a verb??)

You could turn it into a California verb like the girls in my sixth grade class might say, "like, you totally schismatized yourself and stuff! Oh no you dih-ent!"

theinquisitive Oct 30, '09 3:31 am

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
:bigyikes:Invites invites....... it must be the season.....
Here's one for me from >>gurneyhalleck1<<
" Go back to my post and re-read it. I was just making a bad joke...didn't land evidently! lol"
Well thanks but no thanks once was enough :dts:
Although, (oh learnerd one :bowdown2:),you're "not wrong", bad joke......... Neither funny (ha ha) nor sarcastic (jibe) IMHO.
The british sense of humor is more subtle/dry.
I too have connections to the Anglican Church,and have always been of the opinion that it was not so much a `difference´ of religious beliefs that severed the Anglicans from Rome but a matter of inforcing/wielding religious power/politics,for better or worse,the latter proved to be the out come. Many still believe that the Anglican Church had Protestant leaning's ,this was not the case in the beginings,although has become more and more so through time.
Good piece by Maureen Dowd in NYTimes (October 25th) on the subject of, "Why now?"...

anode Oct 30, '09 5:33 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by theinquisitive (Post 5881531)
:bigyikes:Invites invites....... it must be the season.....
Here's one for me from >>gurneyhalleck1<<
" Go back to my post and re-read it. I was just making a bad joke...didn't land evidently! lol"
Well thanks but no thanks once was enough :dts:
Although, (oh learnerd one :bowdown2:),you're "not wrong", bad joke......... Neither funny (ha ha) nor sarcastic (jibe) IMHO.
The british sense of humor is more subtle/dry.
I too have connections to the Anglican Church,and have always been of the opinion that it was not so much a `difference´ of religious beliefs that severed the Anglicans from Rome but a matter of inforcing/wielding religious power/politics,for better or worse,the latter proved to be the out come. Many still believe that the Anglican Church had Protestant leaning's ,this was not the case in the beginings,although has become more and more so through time.
Good piece by Maureen Dowd in NYTimes (October 25th) on the subject of, "Why now?"...


anode Oct 30, '09 5:34 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Can you post the link to the Maureen Dowd piece? I can't find it.

Thanks!

emeraldcoast Oct 30, '09 5:45 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by anode (Post 5884278)
Can you post the link to the Maureen Dowd piece? I can't find it.

Thanks!

Maybe this one...

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/25/opinion/25dowd.html

God Bless!

gurneyhalleck1 Oct 30, '09 9:23 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by emeraldcoast (Post 5884307)

That article is nothing short of appauling. Typical anti-Catholic garbage. Dowd has a chip on her shoulder against the Church. It's always fascinating to watch how someone like Dowd starts talking about the "patrimony" and supposed chauvenism of the Catholic Church but she just can't resist the cheap shot the Pope-is-a-Nazi slam. Saying charged words like nazi and "inquisitions" then she sarcastically calls him "Il Papa." And of course she accuses anyone who wants to become a Catholic leaving Anglicanism must be a person who "scorns" gays and women. This article is tripe, pure and simple. It's a rant by a person with intelligence who has chosen the low road. The New York Times is a filthy rag anyway but this only reminds me of that fact. This is disgusting...

IVDAE Oct 30, '09 11:02 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Well thank God that the Anglican Bishops were enlightened that they lead some of the people in a wrong church.

If you don`t mind, did Anglican Bishops still a bishop in a RCC???

gamewell45 Oct 30, '09 11:02 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by gurneyhalleck1 (Post 5884892)
That article is nothing short of appauling. Typical anti-Catholic garbage. Dowd has a chip on her shoulder against the Church. It's always fascinating to watch how someone like Dowd starts talking about the "patrimony" and supposed chauvenism of the Catholic Church but she just can't resist the cheap shot the Pope-is-a-Nazi slam. Saying charged words like nazi and "inquisitions" then she sarcastically calls him "Il Papa." And of course she accuses anyone who wants to become a Catholic leaving Anglicanism must be a person who "scorns" gays and women. This article is tripe, pure and simple. It's a rant by a person with intelligence who has chosen the low road. The New York Times is a filthy rag anyway but this only reminds me of that fact. This is disgusting...

I think you have to ask yourself, is any of it true? I read the article and putting aside her editorializing, the facts appear to be accurate. Most churches or organizations don't like negative publicity, however whether the press is conservative or liberal, they are going to put their spin on it if you will.

GKC Oct 30, '09 11:15 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IVDAE (Post 5885125)
Well thank God that the Anglican Bishops were enlightened that they lead some of the people in a wrong church.

If you don`t mind, did Anglican Bishops still a bishop in a RCC???

No, they will not be.


GKC

GKC Oct 30, '09 11:20 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by gamewell45 (Post 5885129)
I think you have to ask yourself, is any of it true? I read the article and putting aside her editorializing, the facts appear to be accurate. Most churches or organizations don't like negative publicity, however whether the press is conservative or liberal, they are going to put their spin on it if you will.

Much of it is true, as to basic fact. Problem lies in the interpretation and characterization. Is an inquiry into religious orthodoxy (a concept that the RCC certainly accepts, as other churches do not, necessarily) of orders of RC nuns properly styled an inquisition? And so forth. It is the editorializing that lowers it to trash journalism.

GKC

Anglicanus-Catholicus

Irish_Polock Oct 30, '09 11:25 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by gamewell45 (Post 5885129)
I think you have to ask yourself, is any of it true? I read the article and putting aside her editorializing, the facts appear to be accurate. Most churches or organizations don't like negative publicity, however whether the press is conservative or liberal, they are going to put their spin on it if you will.

You will find yourself defending the NYT a lot around the CAF. The NYT is one of the most anti-Catholic publications that I can think of this late at night…

theinquisitive Nov 1, '09 9:48 am

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by anode (Post 5884278)
Can you post the link to the Maureen Dowd piece? I can't find it.

Thanks!

:blush: Sorry I copied the wrong name....
The "Nun Strory" was not the one I ment...
here the right one ....... so sorry about that..

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/o...ses_inc_1.html

But this one is also interesting...
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/25/op...d=1&sq=October 25 2009&st=nyt&scp=26

gurneyhalleck1 Nov 1, '09 10:08 am

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GKC (Post 5885169)
Much of it is true, as to basic fact. Problem lies in the interpretation and characterization. Is an inquiry into religious orthodoxy (a concept that the RCC certainly accepts, as other churches do not, necessarily) of orders of RC nuns properly styled an inquisition? And so forth. It is the editorializing that lowers it to trash journalism.

GKC

Anglicanus-Catholicus

That was my sentiment exactly. Obviously I don't debate the facts. Does the Catholic Church NOT ordain women? Yes. Do they do it because they're a bunch of women-hating medievel backwards chauvenists out to keep women gagged and stunted? No. Each one of Dowd's characterizations demonized the Church while stating the fact. This is journalism by a hack rather than someone with integrity and impartial analysis. The only people who get excited by an article like this are folks who dislike Catholicism or Catholics who are on the liberal end of the spectrum who feel that their hippy happy-clappy "progressive" views aren't being respected by the Vatican. No self-respecting Catholic who believes in the Church and its traditions or theology could enjoy or stomach this article. It's pitiful.

theinquisitive Nov 1, '09 10:16 am

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Irish_Polock (Post 5885179)
You will find yourself defending the NYT a lot around the CAF. The NYT is one of the most anti-Catholic publications that I can think of this late at night…

To read and find an article, "interesting/good" ,does not mean,that one is defending the NYTimes,nor the opinions there in.
I did not know that the NYTimes was ever included in the "Index" list of forbidden literature...... ;)
Since the Index was abolished in 1966 it would be irrevelant any way ..
By the way,books by Hitler were not ever on the "Index" list... while several other, less well-known authors (including Saint Faustina Kowalska) were added to the Index in the 20 year period before its abolition... surprising :confused: !!!
So, I will continue, to read,perhaps find some articles interesting even good. :coffeeread:
Paula Kirby's article IS Interesting!!!

anode Nov 1, '09 6:06 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Maureen Dowd writes for the New York Times as an editor. Her works appear on the Op-Ed pages. Paula Kirby identifies herself as a former Christian. She is wrting an opinion piece for the Washington Post. I am not familiar with her work. Ms. Dowd, however, has a wide following. She is opinionated and a good writer.

You don't have to be an anti-Catholic to agree with Maureen. Many loyal Catholics are outraged by the pope's decision to examine women's apostolic religious orders in the US at this time. Very few dioceses have come forth with their monetary assessment to support the investigation.

You don't have to be anti-Catholic to read the New York Times. I don't regard the paper as anti-Catholic. It writes a lot of pieces about the Catholic Church because the RCC is providing excellent sources of news just now. The NYT also reports bad stuff about Jews and various Protestant denominations.

BernadetteM Nov 1, '09 6:26 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
I was told by a good source that there are three more Anglican Use parishes/missions coming into the Church. That will be a total of 11. Now that there will be an Apostolic Ordinariate it should be much easier for any group or priest to have an Anglican Use Catholic parish established.

With my luck, there won't be one here in my area of California. I know of TAC parishes, but they seem to teeter back and forth on their decisions. I would have thought that their priests would have explained in detail what it means to be a Catholic and that their decisions had been made before the offer from the Holy Father. After all TAC and other groups approached Rome first. If they were not sincere in the first place why bother. And if their Bishops don't understand what Rome was offering after all these years, it might be best for them to decline the offer.

I don't invest time and money into something that I really intend to enter. I am confused why all the negativity from many Anglicans if their leaders have been keeping them up to date on their meetings in Rome.

I pray that the ones who do want to enter under the Ordinariate can form a group and enter without their priest, if he chooses not to. It is sad to think that the lay members who are serious about Rome, might have to enter as individuals.

Also I read that some of the Bishops might enter the Church and leave behind their flock who have decided not to enter. Such confusion. I guess only time will tell what the outcome is.

At least this should settle it and everyone will be able to make their decision and everyone can go on with life.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

VARC Nov 1, '09 7:00 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BernadetteM (Post 5890941)
I was told by a good source that there are three more Anglican Use parishes/missions coming into the Church. That will be a total of 11. Now that there will be an Apostolic Ordinariate it should be much easier for any group or priest to have an Anglican Use Catholic parish established.

With my luck, there won't be one here in my area of California. I know of TAC parishes, but they seem to teeter back and forth on their decisions. I would have thought that their priests would have explained in detail what it means to be a Catholic and that their decisions had been made before the offer from the Holy Father. After all TAC and other groups approached Rome first. If they were not sincere in the first place why bother. And if their Bishops don't understand what Rome was offering after all these years, it might be best for them to decline the offer.

I don't invest time and money into something that I really intend to enter. I am confused why all the negativity from many Anglicans if their leaders have been keeping them up to date on their meetings in Rome.

I pray that the ones who do want to enter under the Ordinariate can form a group and enter without their priest, if he chooses not to. It is sad to think that the lay members who are serious about Rome, might have to enter as individuals.

Also I read that some of the Bishops might enter the Church and leave behind their flock who have decided not to enter. Such confusion. I guess only time will tell what the outcome is.

At least this should settle it and everyone will be able to make their decision and everyone can go on with life.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

The whole thing has the potential to be a train wreck. Perhaps Rome has it right after all. If you want to join the RCC, go to RCIA and convert like everybody else. It begs the question as to what Plan B was for these "Anglicans". What if Rome said "go to RCIA". Seeing that they believe the CCC, wouldn't they be bound by conscience to obey the Pope?

RevDrNorth Nov 1, '09 7:02 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
The Pope's offer was kind and pastoral. However, whether the initial promise and excitement hold once the Constitution comes out is another matter.

For instance, there is all kinds of speculation at the moment about what the Constitution will contain and it IS speculation at this point. It sounded like they were opening up a more streamlined and generous way for Anglican clergy and groups to become RC.

Let me give you just a few things that may give even orthodox Anglicans pause:

i) If future Anglican seminarians are not treated as the Eastern Rite and are required to be celibate. This will limit appeal and likely growth of any Anglo Catholic rite within the RCC. This will not be an encouragement to orthodox Anglicans.

ii) Rather than taking orthodox Anglican priests on board there is a long drawn out process that means unemployment, etc. This will discourage many.

ii) Impediments: If there is no grandfathering in the system that is developed it may mean that a priest or Bishop who has married a divorced person will be required to have their spouse go through the annulment process to even be considered. Same thing for a clergyman whose wife left them and they had remarried. This will cut down on some movement just on principle.

iii) Same thing with parishioners. I am sure there are a number of divorced parishioners. That means they will go from being able to receive sacraments to not being able to receive them while they pursue an annulment process. That is if there is no grandfather clause. This will cut down on conversions.

iv) Clergy and Bishops who are former Catholics. There are some of those and if there is no grandfather clause that is an impediment (especially if they were RC clergy).

The most generous thing would be to grandfather some of these issues and then go forward with a "from here on approach". Baring that you will certainly cut down on a number of conversions of clergy and laity and Rome's offer will be much less generous.

If Rome's Constitution does turn out to have been better sounding in the pre release publicity I wonder if Anglicans would not have been better off pursuing a process to becoming Western rite orthodox Christians? This would not only bring in those with Catholic sensibilities but also those who are catholic but have problems with certain Roman Catholic doctrines (as do the Orthodox). Metropolitan Jonah is involved with dialogue (that is all it is) with ACNA.

I think if Rome's offer is very restrictive it will not likely result in any rush to Rome or significant damage to the Communion.

BernadetteM Nov 1, '09 7:21 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
I don't think the Church is going to change its discipline for Anglicans. That would really cause a problem with Catholics and it should. They can't play favorites. I don't believe that the Anglican Use priests had to wait for a long time to be ordained.

As far as divorce goes, of course they would have to go through the annulment process just as any Catholic would. Why should it be otherwise.

I just don't understand the mindset of some who say they want to enter the Church, whether through the offer of the Pope or as an individual Anglican/protestant or even a group and bypass the laws of the Church.

This would create many problems for the Catholic Church. I think the offer was very compassionate and now it is up to the Anglicans to decide whether they really want to be Catholic or not. I surely knew what the Church teaches and expects from its members before I became Catholic and wonder why these groups don't seem to have a clue.

Apparently some just want to stay Anglicans, but be recognized as Catholics, at least that is how I read it. Yes there will be sacrifice for some, I have had to sacrifice the traditions I loved, but found that I wanted Truth before all the goodies I had as an Episcopalian. I am now in a Church where I can say this is what my Church teaches, this is the faith. As an Episcopalian I couldn't really say that as there is nothing that the Episcopal church teaches that must be believed.

I will be glad when the Constitution comes out too, so that the ones who truely accept all that is Catholic will finally be able to return and the others can stay in their communities and maybe all the groups can come together as one. The Episcopal church was united for around 500 years with the Anglicans as one, why can't these groups also unite? Yes they have the low church, broad church, high church and Anglo Catholics, but they were all one within the Episcopal church and I don't understand why they can't be one again.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

VARC Nov 1, '09 7:27 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BernadetteM (Post 5891146)

As far as divorce goes, of course they would have to go through the annulment process just as any Catholic would. Why should it be otherwise.

I

Bernadette

Man, who's gonna pay the $500 annulment fee? Tough economy. A pretty big bill to pay to stay in your parish. Might get a lot of people ignoring that rule or pass on the offer.

RevDrNorth Nov 1, '09 7:32 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Yes, I am sure there will be some movement but it will not empty out the orthodox Anglican ranks. The Roman Catholic Church is entitled to require people to play by its rules but I suspect all of the hurdles will significantly cut down on the numbers who will cross.

For instance, the Orthodox Church has a different practice with regard to divorce as do Anglicans. I will not say the RC process is wrong just different. I do not know the stats of the numbers of priests/bishops who might convert but their spouse was previously divorced or they were (e.g. wife ran off and left them,etc) and possibly the same for congregations. Why convert, risk denial based on a human tribunal decision (that could be faulty) and no longer be a priest/Bishop or in the case of clergy and congregants be able to receive sacraments (denied full participation in the life of the church)???

As I noted in the previous post I suspect that all of the excitement and concern for the communion and orthodox Anglicanism may not be well founded as it appears the Apostolic Constitution may be restrictive enough to exclude a number of Anglicans (both clergy and lay) from full participation. That of course does not even touch on other issues.

For now it is all speculation as the Constitution has not come out but I don't think either the Anglican Communion or ACNA have a great deal to worry about this unless it surprises everyone and grandfathers certain issues, etc.

GKC Nov 1, '09 7:42 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RevDrNorth (Post 5891092)
The Pope's offer was kind and pastoral. However, whether the initial promise and excitement hold once the Constitution comes out is another matter.

For instance, there is all kinds of speculation at the moment about what the Constitution will contain and it IS speculation at this point. It sounded like they were opening up a more streamlined and generous way for Anglican clergy and groups to become RC.

Let me give you just a few things that may give even orthodox Anglicans pause:

i) If future Anglican seminarians are not treated as the Eastern Rite and are required to be celibate. This will limit appeal and likely growth of any Anglo Catholic rite within the RCC. This will not be an encouragement to orthodox Anglicans.

ii) Rather than taking orthodox Anglican priests on board there is a long drawn out process that means unemployment, etc. This will discourage many.

ii) Impediments: If there is no grandfathering in the system that is developed it may mean that a priest or Bishop who has married a divorced person will be required to have their spouse go through the annulment process to even be considered. Same thing for a clergyman whose wife left them and they had remarried. This will cut down on some movement just on principle.

iii) Same thing with parishioners. I am sure there are a number of divorced parishioners. That means they will go from being able to receive sacraments to not being able to receive them while they pursue an annulment process. That is if there is no grandfather clause. This will cut down on conversions.

iv) Clergy and Bishops who are former Catholics. There are some of those and if there is no grandfather clause that is an impediment (especially if they were RC clergy).

The most generous thing would be to grandfather some of these issues and then go forward with a "from here on approach". Baring that you will certainly cut down on a number of conversions of clergy and laity and Rome's offer will be much less generous.

If Rome's Constitution does turn out to have been better sounding in the pre release publicity I wonder if Anglicans would not have been better off pursuing a process to becoming Western rite orthodox Christians? This would not only bring in those with Catholic sensibilities but also those who are catholic but have problems with certain Roman Catholic doctrines (as do the Orthodox). Metropolitan Jonah is involved with dialogue (that is all it is) with ACNA.

I think if Rome's offer is very restrictive it will not likely result in any rush to Rome or significant damage to the Communion.


Interesting points. Given that the TAC approach was top down driven, and that now the details of the Apostolic Constitution will be presented by their bishops, who are on board with the approach to Rome, to the synods/parishes, just how many laity/priests are going to move remains unclear. Could be many, could be less.

Interesting times.

GKC

Hesychios Nov 1, '09 10:04 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by imkingdad (Post 5872740)
This story denotes how 'Forward in Faith' a traditionalist Group of Anglicans Are delighted at Rome's Overture & Offer and many will be accepting it & coming home to the Holy Catholic church. I'd like to welcome these Fine Bishops & their Flocks and pray that many more will avail themselves of this opportunity.

Vivat Jesus!

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=17493

The Catholic News Agency states:
Speaking to the press during the event, the Right Reverend John Hind, Anglican Bishop of Chichester, announced he is considering becoming a Roman Catholic.

Hind, the most senior traditionalist in the Church of England, told “The Telegraph” that he is willing to sacrifice his salary and palace residence to join the Catholic Church.

“This is a remarkable new step from the Vatican,” he said. “At long last there are some choices for Catholics in the Church of England. I'd be happy to be re-ordained into the Catholic Church.”


Apparently, the Catholic News Agency and other news services have this wrong.

As recently reported in VirtueOnline:

Reports that the Rt. Rev. John Hind, Bishop of Chichester, was considering becoming a Catholic, as reported in "The Sunday Telegraph" turned out not to be true. A statement from the bishop said that was not the case. "The report appears to come from a misunderstanding of an answer I gave to questions from the floor at the recent 'Forward in Faith' assembly, at which I spoke.

"A questioner had asked about the Papal condemnation of Anglican Orders. I responded by speaking about the subtlety of the position. I referred to the moment when it seemed as if the issue of how the Roman Catholic Church sees Anglican orders might be reopened but how the ordination of women to the priesthood and other developments have now made that impossible.

"In the light of that I stated that in the event of union with the Roman Catholic Church I would be willing to receive re-ordination into the Roman Catholic priesthood but that I would not be willing to deny the priesthood I have exercised hitherto."

A report that the Bishop of Rochester, Michael Nazir Ali was ready to cross the Tiber was equally incorrect. A statement from his office read, "Bishop Michael is not becoming a Roman Catholic. He intends to continue as a bishop in the Church of England and to encourage orthodox people, evangelical and catholic, in the world-wide Anglican Communion. As a long standing member of both ARCIC (Anglican Roman Catholic International Commission) and IARCCUM (International Anglican Roman Catholic Commission on Unity and Mission), he prays for principled unity based on the Bible and theological agreement between the Anglican and Roman Catholic churches. He believes that such unity may be achieved through continuing dialogue."

VARC Nov 1, '09 10:37 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hesychios (Post 5891583)
The Catholic News Agency states:
Speaking to the press during the event, the Right Reverend John Hind, Anglican Bishop of Chichester, announced he is considering becoming a Roman Catholic.

Hind, the most senior traditionalist in the Church of England, told “The Telegraph” that he is willing to sacrifice his salary and palace residence to join the Catholic Church.

“This is a remarkable new step from the Vatican,” he said. “At long last there are some choices for Catholics in the Church of England. I'd be happy to be re-ordained into the Catholic Church.”


Apparently, the Catholic News Agency and other news services have this wrong.

As recently reported in VirtueOnline:

Reports that the Rt. Rev. John Hind, Bishop of Chichester, was considering becoming a Catholic, as reported in "The Sunday Telegraph" turned out not to be true. A statement from the bishop said that was not the case. "The report appears to come from a misunderstanding of an answer I gave to questions from the floor at the recent 'Forward in Faith' assembly, at which I spoke.

"A questioner had asked about the Papal condemnation of Anglican Orders. I responded by speaking about the subtlety of the position. I referred to the moment when it seemed as if the issue of how the Roman Catholic Church sees Anglican orders might be reopened but how the ordination of women to the priesthood and other developments have now made that impossible.

"In the light of that I stated that in the event of union with the Roman Catholic Church I would be willing to receive re-ordination into the Roman Catholic priesthood but that I would not be willing to deny the priesthood I have exercised hitherto."

A report that the Bishop of Rochester, Michael Nazir Ali was ready to cross the Tiber was equally incorrect. A statement from his office read, "Bishop Michael is not becoming a Roman Catholic. He intends to continue as a bishop in the Church of England and to encourage orthodox people, evangelical and catholic, in the world-wide Anglican Communion. As a long standing member of both ARCIC (Anglican Roman Catholic International Commission) and IARCCUM (International Anglican Roman Catholic Commission on Unity and Mission), he prays for principled unity based on the Bible and theological agreement between the Anglican and Roman Catholic churches. He believes that such unity may be achieved through continuing dialogue."

Huh, it seems this story (Anglican RC parishes) is just way too hyped. People are racing to conclusions. My feeling is that if someone wants to take the pope up on his offer (whatever it may be) then God bless em. Let's try not to make a spectacle out of this.

gurneyhalleck1 Nov 1, '09 10:41 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by VARC (Post 5891643)
Huh, it seems this story (Anglican RC parishes) is just way too hyped. People are racing to conclusions. My feeling is that if someone wants to take the pope up on his offer (whatever it may be) then God bless em. Let's try not to make a spectacle out of this.

I don't think most people are making a spectacle out of it. I think most Catholics view it as a generous offer by the Holy Father and a welcome one at that from their perspective. It is only natural that they be excited to welcome home more Anglicans as brothers and sisters in the Catholic faith. But I do agree that the media overplayed it. The Anglo-Catholic contingent is not that great in North America compared to England. But by and large most Anglicans who were truly wanting to jump ship did so long ago. There will be more trickling in for sure...

BernadetteM Nov 1, '09 10:51 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by VARC (Post 5891643)
Huh, it seems this story (Anglican RC parishes) is just way too hyped. People are racing to conclusions. My feeling is that if someone wants to take the pope up on his offer (whatever it may be) then God bless em. Let's try not to make a spectacle out of this.

VARC,

Thank you for the good advice. It is much more charitable and Christian than I have read on forums run by TAC members.

As I have told them we don't have to agree, everyone is free to choose where they worship. But placing the blame on Rome is all I hear, when Rome didn't approach them, they approached Rome and now they don't seem to like what might be coming down the road..

As I mentioned in other posts, maybe not here, why can't all the Continuing communities get together and become one. TEC was one with many different beliefs under one roof, so it is not impossible. Or go to the the Western Rite Orthodox Church. They do have other options if they don't like Rome.

Anyway thanks again for a thoughtful response.

God Bless

Bernadette

GKC Nov 2, '09 8:06 am

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BernadetteM (Post 5891669)
VARC,

Thank you for the good advice. It is much more charitable and Christian than I have read on forums run by TAC members.

As I have told them we don't have to agree, everyone is free to choose where they worship. But placing the blame on Rome is all I hear, when Rome didn't approach them, they approached Rome and now they don't seem to like what might be coming down the road..

As I mentioned in other posts, maybe not here, why can't all the Continuing communities get together and become one. TEC was one with many different beliefs under one roof, so it is not impossible. Or go to the the Western Rite Orthodox Church. They do have other options if they don't like Rome.

Anyway thanks again for a thoughtful response.

God Bless

Bernadette

At one time, the Continuum was one. And almost immediately began to split.

The usual reasons given are:

Doctrine. There was and is an attempt to get it right this time, no more Elizabethan compromise. Since a great percentage of the original Continuum was Anglo-Catholic, this made a subset split off into a more reformed version. All that went through a number of permutations, but now that portion found in the APA tends to be more evangelical than, say, the ACC or APCK. Each wants a purified form of Anglicanism.

Personality. Some of the leaders had a thing re: some of the other leaders, back when. It was hoped that, as the original generation of them passed from the active scene, some regrouping might occur. Some has. But, in other places, more splits (not necessarily into new jurisdictions, but realignments) have occurred. The TEC isn't the only group that lost a whole diocese, recently.

Purple Passion. Lots of folks like wearing pectoral crosses.

For all that, small gains in unity do occur. Mutual recognition of orders, intercommunion, etc. ACA (that is, TAC) priests often have attended and co-celebrated at my parish, Two clergy were there yesterday, a priest and a deacon, from differing jurisdictions.

Me, I'd like to see one Continuum Church, too. I'm not holding my breath.

GKC

posterus traditus Anglicanus

Hesychios Nov 4, '09 4:51 am

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Can't tell the players without a scorecard.

I must reiterate that I consider most news reports on this subject as notoriously untrustworthy. We should look for independent confirmation of anything reported on blogs.

This was posted at VOL recently:
Quote:

Ten priests and eight congregations in the Eastern Cape Province of the Republic of South Africa have left TAC and have joined the Missionary Diocese of Southern Africa. (The Anglican Catholic Church)
Also...

Quote:

The ANGLICAN CATHOLIC CHURCH (ACC) held its Provincial Synod this past week in Richmond, VA. Bishop McClean, Bishop of the Diocese of the Middle Atlantic States who received into their Orders three priests, including the well-known Canon Charles H. Nalls. All three were formerly APCK members who followed their Bishop, Rocco Florenza, when he departed to the ACA/TAC two years ago. At least one congregation and probably more will follow these three into that Diocese, VOL has been told. Bishop Florenza himself has asked to be received into the ACC from the ACA/TAC and the Bishops have received him in his Orders
In another page on the same site, this blurb was reported concerning bishop Florenza:
Quote:

There are signs of reshuffling within the Continuing movement following the recent announcement by Rome that they will accept traditionalist Anglicans into their church. It might also indicate that the Continuing Church movement is slowly breaking up. VOL received a note saying that Bishop Rocco Florenza was received into the Anglican Catholic Church (ACC) at their Provincial Synod in Richmond, VA, recently following his resignation from the Anglican Church in America (ACA). The bishops of the ACC voted unanimously to receive Bishop Florenza in his episcopal orders. He has been appointed the Episcopal Visitor for the New England Diocese.

Two years ago Florenza took all but three parishes from the eastern diocese of the Anglican Province of Christ the King (APCK) to the ACA. On this occasion there were no parishes involved. A source told VOL that his move had everything to do with the recent proclamation from Rome to receive traditionalist Anglicans. "He (Florenza) came from Rome and has apparently vowed never to be associated with them ever again."
I had thought that the TAC episcopate was unanimous in it's desire for union under Rome, and that all of the bishops had signed a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. This report does not add up.

It seems that the Apostolic Constitution has stimulated some movement, but the early information coming out is of TAC members withdrawing to other havens. On a positive note, I read that two parishes in the USA are moving to Rome, but I lack the details. :shrug:

GKC Nov 4, '09 8:11 am

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Yep. A program is essential. This is merely the musical chairs of the Continuum.

Bishop Rocky Florenza, as noted, is only lately come to the ACA, from the APCK. The usual thing. Whether he was among the signers of the letter to Rome, I can't say, but he wasn't around to be part of the process that set the letter up. But odds are his move now into the ACC is related. Maybe. Or maybe it's one of the points I set out in my post above.Canon Nalls likewise. I have to keep reiterating. Not all the TAC is going to come. Parishes are going to leave, and have. Anglicanism is not monolithic, and that is true down through the TAC. The interesting thing is not who doesn't come, but who does.

It certainly is hard to to get things to add up. If the Continiuum could get added up, we might have some unity. I'm not holding my breath. But this isn't a sign that the Continuum is breaking up. It's just business as usual.

GKC

posterus traditus Anglicanus




QUOTE=Hesychios;5900024]Can't tell the players without a scorecard.

I must reiterate that I consider most news reports on this subject as notoriously untrustworthy. We should look for independent confirmation of anything reported on blogs.

This was posted at VOL recently:


Also...



In another page on the same site, this blurb was reported concerning bishop Florenza:

I had thought that the TAC episcopate was unanimous in it's desire for union under Rome, and that all of the bishops had signed a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. This report does not add up.

It seems that the Apostolic Constitution has stimulated some movement, but the early information coming out is of TAC members withdrawing to other havens. On a positive note, I read that two parishes in the USA are moving to Rome, but I lack the details. :shrug:[/quote]

gamewell45 Nov 4, '09 10:33 am

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by VARC (Post 5891167)
Man, who's gonna pay the $500 annulment fee? Tough economy. A pretty big bill to pay to stay in your parish. Might get a lot of people ignoring that rule or pass on the offer.

$500??? Why do they charge money for an annulment? I've never heard of that before. Is this something new they started?

What happens if the person seeking annulment can't afford the fee?

BernadetteM Nov 4, '09 10:51 am

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
I don't believe that there is a charge of $500. There are some costs, there are many people who must review the paperwork. There is also much paperwork and dealing with both of the spouses to determine if the marriage was valid in the first place.

Anytime someone gets services that takes resources and others time there naturally would be some costs involved. I believe that if there are financial difficulties the Church adjusts the costs. Where this poster came up with $500 I have no idea.

The Church does not charge for Sacraments, but for marriages I assume there would be a charge or a donation to the church.

My daughter was married in a Lutheran church and we had to pay for it even though the minister that officiated at the wedding was her father-in-law to be. Also the wedding started a few minutes late and they charged us an extra $50 dollars.

Churches are no different than others who offer services and use of buildings, there costs involved and a church can't survive if there is no income.

I was an Episcopalian and at one time belonged to the wealthiest parish around. People had to be giving a lot to this parish. When they expanded the church building they asked the parishioners to give as much as possible.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

anode Nov 4, '09 9:02 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
A very welcome cool analysis, RevDr. Many impediments, for priests and laity alike.

Rome will almost certainly close the Anglican Use married priest loophole, which will be a huge magnet for would-be RC seminarians.

Would-be Anglican Use now Episcopalian priests may indeed find a long 're-ordination' process and at the end of it, relatively few Anglican Use parishes available. Those who wish to revert may find the door closed. If I were an Episcopal bishop, I would be hesitant to hire a priest who had changed his mind and changed it back again.

I personally think it is a bad idea to set up these Roman ordinariates of little privileged Anglican Use RC's and their married priests, which could create a great deal of resentment among the local RC clergy and bishops, who apparently would have no control over them.

GKC Nov 4, '09 9:18 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by anode (Post 5903603)
A very welcome cool analysis, RevDr. Many impediments, for priests and laity alike.

Rome will almost certainly close the Anglican Use married priest loophole, which will be a huge magnet for would-be RC seminarians.

Would-be Anglican Use now Episcopalian priests may indeed find a long 're-ordination' process and at the end of it, relatively few Anglican Use parishes available. Those who wish to revert may find the door closed. If I were an Episcopal bishop, I would be hesitant to hire a priest who had changed his mind and changed it back again.

I personally think it is a bad idea to set up these Roman ordinariates of little privileged Anglican Use RC's and their married priests, which could create a great deal of resentment among the local RC clergy and bishops, who apparently would have no control over them.

Have you passed your concerns to the Pope?


GKC

BernadetteM Nov 4, '09 9:45 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Well Rome has been ordaining Anglican Use priests for over 28 years now and there have been no problems. Also I do not believe the process is that long. If the Pastoral Provsion was established in 1980 and some of the parishes have been around with an AU priest since 1983, it was really a very short period of time. This was the very beginning of a very new structure within the Church and as time has gone on I assume the time for priests to be ordained is shorter, depending on their education and background. It was always the rule that only married priests would be allowed to become ordained, nothing new to seminarians. I have no idea what loophole has been mentioned. Many Latin Rite priests are well aware that there are married priests besides the Eastern Rite. Several Bishops who are over these priests and congregations have developed a very good relationship and mutual respect.

Anyone really interested if the real facts can always contact Fr. Phillips at Our Lady of the Antonement Church in San Antonio, Texas. Although he is in Rome at the moment.

I haven't read too many facts on many of the posts on the web, just people's opinions and their own personal agendas.

Apparently there is more Anti-Catholic sentiment showing itself now than ever before.

It is always best to know the truth before making comments that you can't back up with facts.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

GKC Nov 4, '09 9:50 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BernadetteM (Post 5903707)
Well Rome has been ordaining Anglican Use priests for over 28 years now and there have been no problems. Also I do not believe the process is that long. If the Pastoral Provsion was established in 1980 and some of the parishes have been around with an AU priest since 1983, it was really a very short period of time. This was the very beginning of a very new structure within the Church and as time has gone on I assume the time for priests to be ordained is shorter, depending on their education and background. It was always the rule that only married priests would be allowed to become ordained, nothing new to seminarians. I have no idea what loophole has been mentioned. Many Latin Rite priests are well aware that there are married priests besides the Eastern Rite. Several Bishops who are over these priests and congregations have developed a very good relationship and mutual respect.

Anyone really interested if the real facts can always contact Fr. Phillips at Our Lady of the Antonement Church in San Antonio, Texas. Although he is in Rome at the moment.

I haven't read too many facts on many of the posts on the web, just people's opinions and their own personal agendas.

Apparently there is more Anti-Catholic sentiment showing itself now than ever before.

It is always best to know the truth before making comments that you can't back up with facts.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

The loophole was some confusion over married Anglican seminarians, whether they would be permitted to be priested (other things being equal), though married. I believe Rome has issued some clarification, by releasing early the pertinent para of the Apostolic Constitution.

GKC

Hesychios Nov 5, '09 12:34 am

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GKC (Post 5903718)
The loophole was some confusion over married Anglican seminarians, whether they would be permitted to be priested (other things being equal), though married. I believe Rome has issued some clarification, by releasing early the pertinent para of the Apostolic Constitution.

GKC

OK, the church will allow present married seminarians to be ordained. But I question whether this will continue.

In other words, will the present 12 year old Anglican (soon to be Catholic) male be able to marry (when he reaches a responsible age) as a seminarian and proceed to Holy Orders?

Will his grandson be able to marry and seek ordination as an Anglican priest under the Pope... or is this option restricted to convert seminarians?

GKC Nov 5, '09 8:06 am

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hesychios (Post 5903988)
OK, the church will allow present married seminarians to be ordained. But I question whether this will continue.

In other words, will the present 12 year old Anglican (soon to be Catholic) male be able to marry (when he reaches a responsible age) as a seminarian and proceed to Holy Orders?

Will his grandson be able to marry and seek ordination as an Anglican priest under the Pope... or is this option restricted to convert seminarians?

I suspect to current convert seminarians. But there was a semantic issue, at the first .

Here's a comment:

http://212.77.1.245/news_services/bu...0.2009&lang=en


GKC

Eutychus123 Nov 5, '09 6:03 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
I had thought that the TAC episcopate was unanimous in it's desire for union under Rome, and that all of the bishops had signed a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. This report does not add up.

It seems that the Apostolic Constitution has stimulated some movement, but the early information coming out is of TAC members withdrawing to other havens. On a positive note, I read that two parishes in the USA are moving to Rome, but I lack the details. :shrug:[/quote]



The TAC episcopate was unanimous in approaching Rome as a sister church, "Unity without absorption." They are not unanimous in accepting what they perceive as absorption.

Justy90 Nov 5, '09 6:05 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by imkingdad (Post 5872740)
This story denotes how 'Forward in Faith' a traditionalist Group of Anglicans Are delighted at Rome's Overture & Offer and many will be accepting it & coming home
to the Holy Catholic church. I'd like to welcome these Fine Bishops & their Flocks
and pray that many more will avail themselves of this opportunity. Vivat Jesus!

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=17493

Don't start counting the sheep just yet. My bishop and the thousands in my diocese want nothing to do with Rome.

anode Nov 6, '09 3:01 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BernadetteM (Post 5903707)
Well Rome has been ordaining Anglican Use priests for over 28 years now and there have been no problems. Also I do not believe the process is that long. If the Pastoral Provsion was established in 1980 and some of the parishes have been around with an AU priest since 1983, it was really a very short period of time. This was the very beginning of a very new structure within the Church and as time has gone on I assume the time for priests to be ordained is shorter, depending on their education and background. It was always the rule that only married priests would be allowed to become ordained, nothing new to seminarians. I have no idea what loophole has been mentioned. Many Latin Rite priests are well aware that there are married priests besides the Eastern Rite. Several Bishops who are over these priests and congregations have developed a very good relationship and mutual respect.
....

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

I have no agenda on any of these issues, nothing to gain or lose. These problems are 'interesting' as in the old 'curse': May you live in interesting times.

Much of my information has come from this forum, from folks who sound as if they know what they are talking about, who are reasonably objective, and who do have stakes in these issues.

Anglican Use parishes have been uncommon in the US, and according to this forum's sources, not well received by their local bishops--or welcomed, at least.

The fact that Eastern rite Catholics permitted married priests has been a thorn in the side of Latin use celibate priests for a long time. I believe that only the fact that the rites were based on 'foreign' languages and liturgies prevented many of those celibates from entering eastern rite seminaries in the first place.

As an aside, the pope's offer is going to create an enormous new bureaucracy for the RCC, to handle all of the issues and questions re re-ordination, re-baptism/re-confirmation, annulments that it is going to receive, to mention just a few of the issues involved.

GKC Nov 6, '09 3:29 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by anode (Post 5910462)
I have no agenda on any of these issues, nothing to gain or lose. These problems are 'interesting' as in the old 'curse': May you live in interesting times.

Much of my information has come from this forum, from folks who sound as if they know what they are talking about, who are reasonably objective, and who do have stakes in these issues.

Anglican Use parishes have been uncommon in the US, and according to this forum's sources, not well received by their local bishops--or welcomed, at least.

The fact that Eastern rite Catholics permitted married priests has been a thorn in the side of Latin use celibate priests for a long time. I believe that only the fact that the rites were based on 'foreign' languages and liturgies prevented many of those celibates from entering eastern rite seminaries in the first place.

As an aside, the pope's offer is going to create an enormous new bureaucracy for the RCC, to handle all of the issues and questions re re-ordination, re-baptism/re-confirmation, annulments that it is going to receive, to mention just a few of the issues involved.


I find the times interesting. As in fascinating.

GKC

Fascinated.

olivet Nov 7, '09 6:31 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
"Well Rome has been ordaining Anglican Use priests for over 28 years now and there have been no problems. Also I do not believe the process is that long. If the Pastoral Provsion was established in 1980 and some of the parishes have been around with an AU priest since 1983, it was really a very short period of time. This was the very beginning of a very new structure within the Church and as time has gone on I assume the time for priests to be ordained is shorter, depending on their education and background."

Exactly what is your opinion based on? As the Anglican priests themselves, who are learned men on these issues, cannot say with any certainty how long the process will take, except that it will be done on an individual basis, then on what basis are you making these statements? Facts, please.

BernadetteM Nov 7, '09 7:11 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by olivet (Post 5914484)
"Well Rome has been ordaining Anglican Use priests for over 28 years now and there have been no problems. Also I do not believe the process is that long. If the Pastoral Provsion was established in 1980 and some of the parishes have been around with an AU priest since 1983, it was really a very short period of time. This was the very beginning of a very new structure within the Church and as time has gone on I assume the time for priests to be ordained is shorter, depending on their education and background."

Exactly what is your opinion based on? As the Anglican priests themselves, who are learned men on these issues, cannot say with any certainty how long the process will take, except that it will be done on an individual basis, then on what basis are you making these statements? Facts, please.

What are your facts that it will take a long time? I am going by what has happened in the past and I believe that the structure will be based on the Anglican Use structure except broader.

You seem to make many assumptions and apparently you must have inside information to make these assumptions. If you don't have inside information why not wait until the statement from Rome comes out.

I never directed any attacks on you personally and don't understand why you must feel the need to attack me personally. Since I have been through this movement on a much smaller basis, but still know how it was handled in the past I think, of course I am not positive, but feel it will be similar. Of course there are many more complications with some of the Bishops and maybe the priests in the Anglican groups that we didn't have.

It saddens me to see that Anglicans are no different than fundamentlists in their view of the Catholic Church. As a former Episcoplian I didn't see all this anger towards other churches. If a person is secure in their own beliefs why show such disdain for others who have a different view? I know of no Catholics that make such remarks about people of other faiths. Of course there are bound to be some who take things to an extreme, but I know many Catholics and their not really concerned about others disagreeing with their choice of faith.

I will not be responding to anymore posts unless the poster shows charity and is civil.

Bernadette

gurneyhalleck1 Nov 7, '09 7:38 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GKC (Post 5910601)
I find the times interesting. As in fascinating.

GKC

Fascinated.

Spock: "Fascinating, Jim"
Kirk: Warp Factor seven, Mr. Sulu
McCoy: Damn it, Spock, why does everything have to be fascinating for you!?"
Spock: "Fine, doctor, then..interesting"

GKC Nov 7, '09 8:10 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by gurneyhalleck1 (Post 5914706)
Spock: "Fascinating, Jim"
Kirk: Warp Factor seven, Mr. Sulu
McCoy: Damn it, Spock, why does everything have to be fascinating for you!?"
Spock: "Fine, doctor, then..interesting"

I can raise one eyebrow.


GKC

gurneyhalleck1 Nov 7, '09 8:59 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GKC (Post 5914814)
I can raise one eyebrow.


GKC

"Make it so, Number One!"
http://www.harbornet.com/folks/theed...an/picard3.jpg

olivet Nov 8, '09 6:07 am

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
BernadetteM,

Well, you make a lot of broad statements and generalizations that are just incorrect, and seem to be missing a very basic point, in that Anglican priests ALREADY view themselves as Catholic priests with valid orders; Anglican theologians can prove (and have) that the Anglican church is part of the one true Catholic Church.

As such, they were seeking an inter-communion arrangement;
a reunion with Rome, as a sister church, not as a faith community to convert to and be absorbed by Rome. (please sit and think on this as it is the most important basic point of it all)

The idea is that they would continue to maintain their own governmental structure, etc. just as some other churches which are independant of Rome, but in communion with her are.

Where you get the idea that the Anglican bishops are asking Rome to denounce her beliefs or rules I do not know, and there is not a shred of truth in that. The Anglicans simply do not want to deny their OWN orders (see previous posts as they are fully explanatory and need not be repeated).

Not all Anglicans are as angry as you make them out to be. TAC didn't approach Rome because they know everyone in TAC hates the Roman Catholic Church. TAC didn't approach Rome because they haven't a clue what Rome believes. They know very well.

That having been said, ++Hepworth has never made a secret about his wish to return to Rome and I'm not sure why the bishops didn't take him to task a little bit more in order to ferret out his true intentions. A lot of time and effort could have been saved.

BernadetteM Nov 8, '09 3:30 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by olivet (Post 5915687)
BernadetteM,

Well, you make a lot of broad statements and generalizations that are just incorrect, and seem to be missing a very basic point, in that Anglican priests ALREADY view themselves as Catholic priests with valid orders; Anglican theologians can prove (and have) that the Anglican church is part of the one true Catholic Church.

As such, they were seeking an inter-communion arrangement;
a reunion with Rome, as a sister church, not as a faith community to convert to and be absorbed by Rome. (please sit and think on this as it is the most important basic point of it all)



I have made posts on this very subject and have stated that I didn't believe Rome would accept this arrangement.


The idea is that they would continue to maintain their own governmental structure, etc. just as some other churches which are independant of Rome, but in communion with her are. If you are speaking the Eastern Rites, they are still under Rome and their situation is different, in that they were never Latin Rite, The English church had other usages, but were still under the Latin Rite.


I knew that and have posted that this is want they wanted and asked Rome for. Not in those exact words, but said they wanted to be independent of Rome, but in some way be in communion with Her.


Where you get the idea that the Anglican bishops are asking Rome to denounce her beliefs or rules I do not know, and there is not a shred of truth in that. The Anglicans simply do not want to deny their OWN orders (see previous posts as they are fully explanatory and need not be repeated).


I understand that this is the position that many Anglicans hold, but this is not the position of the Catholic Church.


Not all Anglicans are as angry as you make them out to be. TAC didn't approach Rome because they know everyone in TAC hates the Roman Catholic Church. TAC didn't approach Rome because they haven't a clue what Rome believes. They know very well.


If they really understood what the answer would be then I suppose they were hoping that Rome would change its position, at least on the validity of Anglican orders.


That having been said, ++Hepworth has never made a secret about his wish to return to Rome and I'm not sure why the bishops didn't take him to task a little bit more in order to ferret out his true intentions. A lot of time and effort could have been saved.


I have also posted that Hepworth did not tell this to his laypeople and in my opinon was not being upfront with them. That is why I stated the anger should be towards him and not the Church. As I stated before I have been down this road before and the Bishops of TAC should have made it perfectly clear of their conversations with Rome. The Church has has the Pastoral Provision for years and this is what I feel will be the process for the incoming Anglicans. If some of them have not been fully made aware of having their priests ordained it is the responsiblity of their Bishops/leaders to have made this clear in the beginning.

You might feel that I am not informed, but as far as I can see the Church will not change its position of present doctrine and discipline for any group. They didn't for the Pastoral Provision. Also the Orthodox from what I have read from statements made by the Metropolitan Jonah the Orthodox will not change their doctrine nor discipline for groups entering into their Church. None of this is a surpise to Catholics and it is a shame if Anglicans from TAC were not told exactly the position of the Church.

Let us not keep arguing about this issue. The Anglicans who wish to come into the Church with their own Patrimony will be allowed, and the ones who don't like what Rome has offered can stay where they are. I do feel bad if their leaders did not inform them until the last moment and might leave them with no Bishop, that is not a Christian way of being a shepard. I had many Episcopal friends and find no fault in what they believe. If they are content then that is what is important. If Anglicans feel that they are Catholic, then I don't understand why they feel they would want to be part of the Church under Rome or even be in commuion with it. Although the Orthodox are considered sister churches, Rome is not in communion with them either and they feel that they are the true Catholic Church.

The ones I feel the worst for are Anglicans who feel betrayed by their leaders. You must know that God does play a hugh role in this and that we must trust in Him. When we left the Episcopal church there was much pain for all, we split in three ways as a parish and had to make our choices where to go. So please stop accusing me of not knowing what I am talking about. The difference might be that our priests spoke to us every Sunday after Mass on what was going on with Rome, so we knew early on what it would be to become Catholic, there was nothing hidden and our congregation had the time to determine for themselves what they wanted to do. The ones who chose Rome or Orthodoxy had to leave our building and everything behind, the ones who stayed part of the Anglican continuing group stayed in the building and are still there today.

God Bless

Bernadette

RevDrNorth Nov 8, '09 3:52 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Let's all play nice in the sandbox :)

Is the offer from the Vatican a gracious pastoral move? Yes.
Is it beneficial for some Anglicans who share not just Catholic beliefs but Roman Catholic beliefs? Yes.
Are there Anglicans who yearn for church unity and the certainty Rome provides on issues ranging from doctrinal to moral issues? Yes.
Does this benefit the Roman Catholic Church through infusion of traditional orthodox clergy? Yes. {Note: that some liberals feel that the Pope by bringing in the orthodox Anglicans and possibly SSPX is trying to shore up the conservative wing of the church. That in and of itself is not a bad idea. Too many liberals in the RCC can begin to steer that ship in the direction of mainline US denominations. These are important times in RC history where as I understand it, evangelicals are making inroads in South and Central American}.
Is this likely to destroy Anglicanism outside of Rome? No. There are strong elements within Anglicanism that are Protestant even to the point of being Calvinistic (eg Canon JI Packer) these are likely not going to Rome and not going away.

Off topic there is a great Fr. Corapi program where as I recall he describes dealing with some evangelicals (heckling) him at at conference in South America. You think Fr. Corapi could be cloned??

olivet Nov 9, '09 5:57 am

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
BernadetteM,

All of what you say about the communication is right and it's a shame everyone was kept in the dark, but the instructions +++Hepworth received from the Vatican when he went there to deliver the letter from the House of Bishops was to keep the matter secret; allow no interviews, etc. Talk about unleashing the conspiracy theorists.

The only way the House of Bishops can put to rest their priests' and laity's mistrust of what the letter contained would be to publish it, and let everyone read it for themselves.

What are the chances of that?

I know, GK, you're getting out the popcorn. Pour me some too.

GKC Nov 9, '09 6:49 am

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by olivet (Post 5919034)
BernadetteM,

All of what you say about the communication is right and it's a shame everyone was kept in the dark, but the instructions +++Hepworth received from the Vatican when he went there to deliver the letter from the House of Bishops was to keep the matter secret; allow no interviews, etc. Talk about unleashing the conspiracy theorists.

The only way the House of Bishops can put to rest their priests' and laity's mistrust of what the letter contained would be to publish it, and let everyone read it for themselves.

What are the chances of that?

I know, GK, you're getting out the popcorn. Pour me some too.


Butter?


GKC

olivet Nov 9, '09 10:48 am

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Yes, please. Better make it a double, since the Constitution's out.

GKC Nov 9, '09 11:00 am

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by olivet (Post 5919941)
Yes, please. Better make it a double, since the Constitution's out.

And the Norms. Interesting points on Bishops.

GKC

BernadetteM Nov 9, '09 11:30 am

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by olivet (Post 5919034)
BernadetteM,

All of what you say about the communication is right and it's a shame everyone was kept in the dark, but the instructions +++Hepworth received from the Vatican when he went there to deliver the letter from the House of Bishops was to keep the matter secret; allow no interviews, etc. Talk about unleashing the conspiracy theorists.

The only way the House of Bishops can put to rest their priests' and laity's mistrust of what the letter contained would be to publish it, and let everyone read it for themselves.

What are the chances of that?

I know, GK, you're getting out the popcorn. Pour me some too.

Yes Hepworth might not have been able to speak about many of the conversations or the letter you speak of, but it might have been best if he stated that he was not allowed to say anything about his meetings. From the posts I read that is why people were angry because they somehow were under the imprssion that their hopes were to be fulfilled. I have no idea where they got that impression. Human nature sometimes jumps ahead of reality when we want something badly. I really have no idea as I wasn't there. I can only go by our experiences and our own dissapointment is the end. Of course our denial was at a local level.

I guess our congregations were more in tune with the mindset of the Church. Cardinal Law visited our parish twice. I think maybe Americans are more demanding in knowing exactly what is going on. My daughter lived in England for 3 years and had many friends there and no one seemed to care about politics or other issues that would affect them. At least her friends didn't. Every culture is different. No one really knows what went on behind closed doors. It is always the laypeople who are the last to know.


As I have said I only pray for the best for all Anglicans I never felt any anger towards the church I left. When I was very young and went to a low parish I was always proud of our services (Morning prayer 3 times a month) when I would bring my friends who went to fundamentalist churches and my church was so much more reverent. This is how I saw it in the eyes of a child. I give credit to my Anglican heritage for my love of the liturgy and many truths I learned as a young person.

My intention of this post originally was that I couldn't understand the anger I was seeing as I didn't feel that way. Also due to politics in our diocese although our priests were the ones who helped established the Pastoral Provision, our parishes were the only ones in the beginning and to this day who were not allowed to have an AU parish. Even so I knew that God wanted me to be Catholic and all the priests involved became Catholic priests and many of the people in the congregations. We must understand that our way isn't always God's way. I must remind myself of this and my children also, as life doesn't always go the way we want or pray for. God knows what is best for us as He sees the future and we don't. Our wants and desires are not always His.

I just hope that everyone can let go of anger because I know from issues in my past that the anger I held only hurt me.

Websites are good, but we really don't connect in the same way as in person and make judgements on what the other is really saying sometimes.

God Bless

Bernadette

olivet Nov 9, '09 12:31 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Hold onto your hat, BernadetteM, the Constitution has been published, and here we go again.

The Anglicans I know are experiencing a 'disconnect' between that which they had been told was being sought (unity without absorption) and that which has been offered (mass conversion and absorption into the RCC).

I say this just matter of factly, without emotion; it's just the way it is. One of the members of the House of Bishops confirmed this to me directly.

Many agree that the offer isn't so much a response to TAC as it is intended for the Church of England parishes which are now being subjected to WO, women bishops are on the horizen, and they are quite desperate for help. And yes, we Americans are very independent and want to know every last detail....yes, we do :)

I'm sure you read other blogs and see that the Anglican priests are grappling with some very sensitive issues (like Holy Orders, for one), and for many of them, the current offer just doesn't represent what they had hoped for. For others, it does.

One wonders what will become of Mr. Hepworth when TAC goes into the RCC, as the Constitution indicates that the RCC would not accept him as a priest (due to his former stint in RCC as a priest).

Eutychus123 Nov 9, '09 12:57 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by olivet (Post 5920381)
Hold onto your hat, BernadetteM, the Constitution has been published, and here we go again.

The Anglicans I know are experiencing a 'disconnect' between that which they had been told was being sought (unity without absorption) and that which has been offered (mass conversion and absorption into the RCC).

I say this just matter of factly, without emotion; it's just the way it is. One of the members of the House of Bishops confirmed this to me directly.

Many agree that the offer isn't so much a response to TAC as it is intended for the Church of England parishes which are now being subjected to WO, women bishops are on the horizen, and they are quite desperate for help. And yes, we Americans are very independent and want to know every last detail....yes, we do :)

I'm sure you read other blogs and see that the Anglican priests are grappling with some very sensitive issues (like Holy Orders, for one), and for many of them, the current offer just doesn't represent what they had hoped for. For others, it does.

One wonders what will become of Mr. Hepworth when TAC goes into the RCC, as the Constitution indicates that the RCC would not accept him as a priest (due to his former stint in RCC as a priest).

Yes, I agree with your point about the offer being more directed toward the Church of England than to TAC. Cardinal Levada dropped some hints in his response to TAC in 2008.

GKC Nov 9, '09 1:01 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by olivet (Post 5920381)
Hold onto your hat, BernadetteM, the Constitution has been published, and here we go again.

The Anglicans I know are experiencing a 'disconnect' between that which they had been told was being sought (unity without absorption) and that which has been offered (mass conversion and absorption into the RCC).

I say this just matter of factly, without emotion; it's just the way it is. One of the members of the House of Bishops confirmed this to me directly.

Many agree that the offer isn't so much a response to TAC as it is intended for the Church of England parishes which are now being subjected to WO, women bishops are on the horizen, and they are quite desperate for help. And yes, we Americans are very independent and want to know every last detail....yes, we do :)

I'm sure you read other blogs and see that the Anglican priests are grappling with some very sensitive issues (like Holy Orders, for one), and for many of them, the current offer just doesn't represent what they had hoped for. For others, it does.

One wonders what will become of Mr. Hepworth when TAC goes into the RCC, as the Constitution indicates that the RCC would not accept him as a priest (due to his former stint in RCC as a priest).


Double whammy. He's also in an irregular matrimonial status. I cannot think this is a surprise to him.


GKC

BernadetteM Nov 9, '09 1:30 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by olivet (Post 5920381)
Hold onto your hat, BernadetteM, the Constitution has been published, and here we go again.

The Anglicans I know are experiencing a 'disconnect' between that which they had been told was being sought (unity without absorption) and that which has been offered (mass conversion and absorption into the RCC).

I say this just matter of factly, without emotion; it's just the way it is. One of the members of the House of Bishops confirmed this to me directly.

Many agree that the offer isn't so much a response to TAC as it is intended for the Church of England parishes which are now being subjected to WO, women bishops are on the horizen, and they are quite desperate for help. And yes, we Americans are very independent and want to know every last detail....yes, we do :)

I'm sure you read other blogs and see that the Anglican priests are grappling with some very sensitive issues (like Holy Orders, for one), and for many of them, the current offer just doesn't represent what they had hoped for. For others, it does.

One wonders what will become of Mr. Hepworth when TAC goes into the RCC, as the Constitution indicates that the RCC would not accept him as a priest (due to his former stint in RCC as a priest).

Yes I just read that on another forum. I knew from the beginning that this is exactly the process that would be implemented. There is really very little difference than what the Pastoral Provision says. I also knew there would be a problem with Hepworth, due to his being a Catholic priest, then an Anglican one and married, divorced and remarried.

Although I understand the hopes of what the Anglicans wanted, I understand Rome's position. As I have stated before the Catholilcs in England, before the split were under the Latin Rite, although they had different uses of the liturgy in areas. This is different than the Eastern Rite churches.

Also in American few Eastern Rite priests are married. I believe the ones who are have come from other countries.

I think Anglicans must look at Rome's view on what would happen if they changed the discipline of the Church. It would have caused so much anger among Latin Rite priests and many laypeople. The decision had to be balanced for the whole of the Church.

I guess one of my concerns is about the English Anglo Catholics that use the NO Mass and do not appear to use traditional Anglican liturgies. Whoever decides that they want to come into the Catholic Church bringing their traditions, should use an Anglican liturgy, otherwise why not come in as individuals and attend the NO Mass.

I know this is upsetting to many, but not a surprise to me. I am sure that many will be angry and that can't be helped. Unless a person is thinking from the Catholic perspective it is very difficult for them to understand where the Catholic Church is coming from.

As a former part of the Episcopal church I feel that I do understand Anglicans as far as many of them and their approach to what they believe in the validity of their orders and wanting to be independent of Rome is some way. These are the sticking points that I long ago knew would cause the problems. Our group had already decided to go to Rome and ask for nothing more than to take some of our traditions with us, but they didn't ask to be just in communion with the Church, but to be under the Pope and accept all that the Church teaches.

This situation is different and now we will see who wants to be under the Apostolic Constituion and who chooses to stay within the Continuing Anglican communities. Although at this time it looks dark for some I do believe that a light will shine for those who do not want to come into the Catholic Church. They must find some way to unify themselves into one church. I will never understand the reason they have broken away from one another. Maybe as GKC has suggested they will have intercommunion with the Polish National Church. I recall that as an Epicopalian we all had different traditions within our parishes and the core beliefs were also different. Now from what I read the Anglicans, except for the ones who are more Calvinist believe the same, if this is the case I can't understand the disunity among them.

There is no church, even the Catholic Church where everyone agrees on everything. Although the Catholic Church holds to certain doctrines that to be a Catholic in good standing you must accept.

Please try to understand the reason that the Church must stand by Her doctrines.
If a large corporation with lets say 50,000 employees had a group of maybe 200 people come as a group and ask that they wanted to choose their own hours, more time for lunch breaks, better insurance than the other employees that the company could not allow it. There must be conformity whether we are speaking of a church or even a company. This is probably not the best anology but one I thought about.

In some ways I feel the Orthodox are more closed minded about what they demand of people coming into the Church. I understand the Russian Orthodox might be different, but many are very hard lined in demanding a person being baptized again and renouncing some of their former beliefs. It is not just the Catholic Church.

Well we will see how all this turns out and I will be praying for those who feel lost and that the Lord will take care of them and their spiritual needs.

God Bless

Bernadette

Usbek de Perse Nov 9, '09 1:52 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by imkingdad (Post 5872740)
This story denotes how 'Forward in Faith' a traditionalist Group of Anglicans Are delighted at Rome's Overture & Offer and many will be accepting it & coming home
to the Holy Catholic church. I'd like to welcome these Fine Bishops & their Flocks
and pray that many more will avail themselves of this opportunity. Vivat Jesus!

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=17493

It will be interesting to discover how many Anglican bishops really do move over. There have been a few in the past who have. If they are unmarried they may or may not be selected to personal ordinariates. My bet is that they won't be. I expect the ordinariates to be filled with relatively young and inexperienced celibate priests who are more likely to adapt to Roman Catholic discipline.

Good or bad, one thing that unites Anglicans is our ability to stretch discipline to find our own comfortable places. This applies to theology, liturgy and obviously to some aspects of personal morality, sadly. There are some "Anglo-Papists" who believe nearly everything the RC magisterium teaches, with the exception of the nullity of Anglican orders. These have designed liturgical practices based on reconstructions of Roman practice, Sarum practice and a little broad church Anglican practice. Some use the Novus Ordo. In other words, they are on their own. Will they submit to discipline?

Will the ordinariates be somewhat more tolerant of departures from discipline than RC diocesan bishops?

As an Anglican (US Episcopalian), I watch with interest. It nice to know that this option exists.

GKC Nov 9, '09 1:59 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
I'l make a bet. There will be a number of Anglican bishops who will be selected as Ordinariates. Married, or otherwise, as long as they were not previously ordained in the RCC, and have no matrimonial irregularities. That is, Hepworth is gonna be a layman. But I got likely a candidate for the Ordinariate in the UK in mind.

GKC

Quote:

Originally Posted by Usbek de Perse (Post 5920800)
It will be interesting to discover how many Anglican bishops really do move over. There have been a few in the past who have. If they are unmarried they may or may not be selected to personal ordinariates. My bet is that they won't be. I expect the ordinariates to be filled with relatively young and inexperienced celibate priests who are more likely to adapt to Roman Catholic discipline.

Good or bad, one thing that unites Anglicans is our ability to stretch discipline to find our own comfortable places. This applies to theology, liturgy and obviously to some aspects of personal morality, sadly. There are some "Anglo-Papists" who believe nearly everything the RC magisterium teaches, with the exception of the nullity of Anglican orders. These have designed liturgical practices based on reconstructions of Roman practice, Sarum practice and a little broad church Anglican practice. Some use the Novus Ordo. In other words, they are on their own. Will they submit to discipline?

Will the ordinariates be somewhat more tolerant of departures from discipline than RC diocesan bishops?

As an Anglican (US Episcopalian), I watch with interest. It nice to know that this option exists.


Eutychus123 Nov 9, '09 2:06 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BernadetteM (Post 5920676)
Yes I just read that on another forum. I knew from the beginning that this is exactly the process that would be implemented. There is really very little difference than what the Pastoral Provision says. I also knew there would be a problem with Hepworth, due to his being a Catholic priest, then an Anglican one and married, divorced and remarried.

Although I understand the hopes of what the Anglicans wanted, I understand Rome's position. As I have stated before the Catholilcs in England, before the split were under the Latin Rite, although they had different uses of the liturgy in areas. This is different than the Eastern Rite churches.

Also in American few Eastern Rite priests are married. I believe the ones who are have come from other countries.

I think Anglicans must look at Rome's view on what would happen if they changed the discipline of the Church. It would have caused so much anger among Latin Rite priests and many laypeople. The decision had to be balanced for the whole of the Church.

I guess one of my concerns is about the English Anglo Catholics that use the NO Mass and do not appear to use traditional Anglican liturgies. Whoever decides that they want to come into the Catholic Church bringing their traditions, should use an Anglican liturgy, otherwise why not come in as individuals and attend the NO Mass.

I know this is upsetting to many, but not a surprise to me. I am sure that many will be angry and that can't be helped. Unless a person is thinking from the Catholic perspective it is very difficult for them to understand where the Catholic Church is coming from.

As a former part of the Episcopal church I feel that I do understand Anglicans as far as many of them and their approach to what they believe in the validity of their orders and wanting to be independent of Rome is some way. These are the sticking points that I long ago knew would cause the problems. Our group had already decided to go to Rome and ask for nothing more than to take some of our traditions with us, but they didn't ask to be just in communion with the Church, but to be under the Pope and accept all that the Church teaches.

This situation is different and now we will see who wants to be under the Apostolic Constituion and who chooses to stay within the Continuing Anglican communities. Although at this time it looks dark for some I do believe that a light will shine for those who do not want to come into the Catholic Church. They must find some way to unify themselves into one church. I will never understand the reason they have broken away from one another. Maybe as GKC has suggested they will have intercommunion with the Polish National Church. I recall that as an Epicopalian we all had different traditions within our parishes and the core beliefs were also different. Now from what I read the Anglicans, except for the ones who are more Calvinist believe the same, if this is the case I can't understand the disunity among them.

There is no church, even the Catholic Church where everyone agrees on everything. Although the Catholic Church holds to certain doctrines that to be a Catholic in good standing you must accept.

Please try to understand the reason that the Church must stand by Her doctrines.
If a large corporation with lets say 50,000 employees had a group of maybe 200 people come as a group and ask that they wanted to choose their own hours, more time for lunch breaks, better insurance than the other employees that the company could not allow it. There must be conformity whether we are speaking of a church or even a company. This is probably not the best anology but one I thought about.

In some ways I feel the Orthodox are more closed minded about what they demand of people coming into the Church. I understand the Russian Orthodox might be different, but many are very hard lined in demanding a person being baptized again and renouncing some of their former beliefs. It is not just the Catholic Church.

Well we will see how all this turns out and I will be praying for those who feel lost and that the Lord will take care of them and their spiritual needs.

God Bless

Bernadette

Bernadette,

What do you think of the changes to the NO?

Usbek de Perse Nov 9, '09 2:14 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GKC (Post 5920846)
I'l make a bet. There will be a number of Anglican bishops who will be selected as Ordinariates. Married, or otherwise, as long as they were not previously ordained in the RCC, and have no matrimonial irregularities. That is, Hepworth is gonna be a layman. But I got likely a candidate for the Ordinariate in the UK in mind.

GKC

I admit that I missed that passage. The position of the ordinary need not be filled by a bishop, and thus a married priest may become an ordinary. Also, the proviso that allows married former bishops to petion for both insignia and retired membership in bishops conferences might just do the trick to lure those who might be interested. So, could a former anglican bishop, ordained as a priest, wear a mitre? I know there is already precedence for wearing the signet ring.

Small matter I suppose, but would Anglican Rite bishops wear cassock, rochet, chimere and tippet in choir dress, or would they do as the Romans do?

BernadetteM Nov 9, '09 2:19 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Eutychus123 (Post 5920881)
Bernadette,

What do you think of the changes to the NO?

They are an improvement and closer to what I knew as an Episcopalian. I think I will do better knowing the words of the Gloria, Creed etc. than the NO Catholics, because they are much more in line with the old translation.

Of course then we have to deal with the liberal priests and hopefully Pope Benedict will be overseeing what is going on, but of course that is difficult when you are not in the same country.

My parish is very traditional and we also have the TLM. All hymns are the same ones I sang an an Episcopalian. All very traditional.

I am praying for some AU parishes to be erected close enough for me to attend, but we will wait and see.

I understand that many Anglicans will be unhappy with Romes Apostolic Constitution, but I feel it is as generous as Rome could offer.

I hope that whatever decision that Anglicans make will be the right one for them.

I am glad it is over and everyone now knows what is offered and are free to go on with their lives and hopefully they will have spiritual guidance from a priest whether they stay or come into the Church.

God Bless

Bernadette

GKC Nov 9, '09 2:22 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Usbek de Perse (Post 5920924)
I admit that I missed that passage. The position of the ordinary need not be filled by a bishop, and thus a married priest may become an ordinary. Also, the proviso that allows married former bishops to petion for both insignia and retired membership in bishops conferences might just do the trick to lure those who might be interested. So, could a former anglican bishop, ordained as a priest, wear a mitre? I know there is already precedence for wearing the signet ring.

Small matter I suppose, but would Anglican Rite bishops wear cassock, rochet, chimere and tippet in choir dress, or would they do as the Romans do?



My bet (and what the heck do I know) yes, as to miter, yes as to vesting a L'Angleterre. Part of that beautiful patrimony.

And the altar stays where the Anglicans can find it; against the wall.

But it's not a Rite. I don't even know if Use correct any more.

Them's my thoughts.


GKC

Usbek de Perse Nov 9, '09 2:33 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GKC (Post 5920979)
My bet (and what the heck do I know) yes, as to miter, yes as to vesting a L'Angleterre
. Part of that beautiful patrimony.

And the altar stays where the Anglicans can find it; against the wall.

But it's not a Rite. I don't even know if Use correct any more.

Them's my thoughts.


GKC

Hmmm...fine as long as they do away with those ridiculous purple shirts!

GKC Nov 9, '09 2:35 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Usbek de Perse (Post 5921032)
Hmmm...fine as long as they do away with those ridiculous purple shirts!


Oh, I think the purple is staying in the Anglican world, by definition.

GKC

Eutychus123 Nov 9, '09 2:42 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BernadetteM (Post 5920964)
They are an improvement and closer to what I knew as an Episcopalian. I think I will do better knowing the words of the Gloria, Creed etc. than the NO Catholics, because they are much more in line with the old translation.

Of course then we have to deal with the liberal priests and hopefully Pope Benedict will be overseeing what is going on, but of course that is difficult when you are not in the same country.

My parish is very traditional and we also have the TLM. All hymns are the same ones I sang an an Episcopalian. All very traditional.

I am praying for some AU parishes to be erected close enough for me to attend, but we will wait and see.

I understand that many Anglicans will be unhappy with Romes Apostolic Constitution, but I feel it is as generous as Rome could offer.

I hope that whatever decision that Anglicans make will be the right one for them.

I am glad it is over and everyone now knows what is offered and are free to go on with their lives and hopefully they will have spiritual guidance from a priest whether they stay or come into the Church.

God Bless

Bernadette

If there is an parish of former Anglicans set up near you, would you be allowed to join?

Usbek de Perse Nov 9, '09 2:53 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Eutychus123 (Post 5921073)
If there is an parish of former Anglicans set up near you, would you be allowed to join?

I think the RC church is fairly liberal when it comes to laity moving from one rite to another. And in any case, one could always attend.

Membership in catholic parishes does not usually come with the same kind of voting rights that one is used to seeing in protestant or Episcopal/Anglican parishes. I don't think Anglican Rite parishes will have vestries or any with anything like the powers of an Episcopal Church vestry.

GKC Nov 9, '09 3:28 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Usbek de Perse (Post 5921125)
I think the RC church is fairly liberal when it comes to laity moving from one rite to another. And in any case, one could always attend.

Membership in catholic parishes does not usually come with the same kind of voting rights that one is used to seeing in protestant or Episcopal/Anglican parishes. I don't think Anglican Rite parishes will have vestries or any with anything like the powers of an Episcopal Church vestry.


AFAIK, moving from Rite to Rite takes approval of the Ordinary, on both sides.

GKC

CDNowak Nov 9, '09 3:33 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Eutychus123 (Post 5921073)
If there is an parish of former Anglicans set up near you, would you be allowed to join?

Well, you could certainly attend (a Catholic fulfills his obligation by attending the Liturgy in any approved form or Rite). However, the CDF guidelines prohibit those of us already in the Church to officially join (so we would remain under our territorial bishops, not under the new Ordinariates).
Quote:

Originally Posted by The Faithful of the Ordinariate
Article 5
§1. The lay faithful originally of the Anglican tradition who wish to belong to the Ordinariate, after having made their Profession of Faith and received the Sacraments of Initiation, with due regard for Canon 845, are to be entered in the apposite register of the Ordinariate. Those baptized previously as Catholics outside the Ordinariate are not ordinarily eligible for membership, unless they are members of a family belonging to the Ordinariate.

rather disappointing

BernadetteM Nov 9, '09 3:53 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CDNowak (Post 5921294)
Well, you could certainly attend (a Catholic fulfills his obligation by attending the Liturgy in any approved form or Rite). However, the CDF guidelines prohibit those of us already in the Church to officially join (so we would remain under our territorial bishops, not under the new Ordinariates).

rather disappointing

I just spoke to a priest who feels that this might not be fully the case. That there will be an expansion of some sort. As in the Anglican Use one Bishop at one time said that only former Episcopalians could be members of that parish, but has now said that any Catholic can become a member and support that parish. That is the only AU parish that I know of that the Bishop put that rule on who could belong. He now has had a change of heart of maybe seeing how well the AU parishes were very sincere as Catholics, he removed that ruling. That I believe will happen here. My Catholic parish is not in my territory, but I and most of the parishioners belong there are from other areas, it is like a personal parish, but not defined as such.

Bernadette

CDNowak Nov 9, '09 4:22 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BernadetteM (Post 5921362)
I just spoke to a priest who feels that this might not be fully the case. That there will be an expansion of some sort. As in the Anglican Use one Bishop at one time said that only former Episcopalians could be members of that parish, but has now said that any Catholic can become a member and support that parish. That is the only AU parish that I know of that the Bishop put that rule on who could belong. He now has had a change of heart of maybe seeing how well the AU parishes were very sincere as Catholics, he removed that ruling. That I believe will happen here. My Catholic parish is not in my territory, but I and most of the parishioners belong there are from other areas, it is like a personal parish, but not defined as such.

Bernadette

Hopefully. There are provisions for Governing Council of the new ordinariates to propose changes, and if the Anglican tradition is going to be preserved this is one they should propose sooner. Certainly I would expect the AU parishes to be the cornerstone of the ordinariate in the US, perhaps some of these priests will end up in positions to help consult on what has already worked.

BernadetteM Nov 9, '09 5:35 pm

Re: Anglican Bishops coming Home to RCC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CDNowak (Post 5921441)
Hopefully. There are provisions for Governing Council of the new ordinariates to propose changes, and if the Anglican tradition is going to be preserved this is one they should propose sooner. Certainly I would expect the AU parishes to be the cornerstone of the ordinariate in the US, perhaps some of these priests will end up in positions to help consult on what has already worked.

I would assume that some of the AU priests will be consulted, as I do believe that much of this was based on what has worked with these parishes. Of course this is on a much larger scale and there will be more complications than for the original priests and people.

So far the Anglican Use parishes have set a good example, hopefully that will open more doors for needed changes that might come.

God Bless

Bernadette


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