Catholic Answers Forums

Catholic Answers Forums (http://forums.catholic.com/index.php)
-   Sacred Scripture (http://forums.catholic.com/forumdisplay.php?f=30)
-   -   Does God deceive people? (http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=502101)

Luke K Oct 9, '10 8:46 pm

Does God deceive people?
 
Pope Pius IX in Dei Filius said:
Quote:

This faith, which is the beginning of human salvation, the Catholic Church professes to be a supernatural virtue, by means of which, with the grace of God inspiring and assisting us, we believe to be true what He has revealed, not because we perceive its intrinsic truth by the natural light of reason, but because of the authority of God himself, who makes the revelation and can neither deceive nor be deceived.
It's a common-sense notion of Christianity that God does not deceive us. But with the story of Abraham sacrificing Isaac, God "pretended" to want Abraham to sacrifice Isaac in order to test him. Wasn't that deception?

Another passage from 2 Kings chapter 6 (vs. 13-23) talks about Elisha praying to God to blind the Aramean soldiers that were trying to kill him, which God did. Then, Elisha told them that they were on the wrong road and in the wrong city, meaning that they were in the wrong place for finding Elisha. Elisha brought them to safe Israelite territory and then had God open their eyes. So in this case God aided Elisha in deceiving the Arameans so that they would be led into safe territory for Elisha to reveal himself to them.

How can these examples be reconciled with a non-deceptive God?

po18guy Oct 9, '10 10:21 pm

Re: Does God deceive people?
 
Easy. Abraham was told directly to sacrifice Isaac. No deception. It was a test of his faith and obedience. Once Abraham passed the test, the angel told him not to harm the child. No harm was ever intended. God did not deceive the Arameans (Syrians), but only blinded them by answering Elisha's prayer. Elisha deceived them by his own words, since the Arameans could not recognize him by sight.

bkennedy Oct 12, '10 2:44 pm

Re: Does God deceive people?
 
It is a good question to ask. "If God can do anything, can He deceive people?" What we have to remember though is that a sinful act like deception is a deprivation of being. Just like a hole in your pocket in not really something existing in your pocket but rather is a deprivation of "pocket-ness". Because God is the fullness of being and His essence is existence, His being cannot be deprived in any way or else He would not be God. This is why He can neither deceive or be deceived.
Good question though, and God bless you!

po18guy Oct 12, '10 5:08 pm

Re: Does God deceive people?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bkennedy (Post 7157340)
It is a good question to ask. "If God can do anything, can He deceive people?" What we have to remember though is that a sinful act like deception is a deprivation of being. Just like a hole in your pocket in not really something existing in your pocket but rather is a deprivation of "pocket-ness". Because God is the fullness of being and His essence is existence, His being cannot be deprived in any way or else He would not be God. This is why He can neither deceive or be deceived.
Good question though, and God bless you!

Indeed. Goodness is completeness, and deception is a lack of completeness. God, being complete, could only deceive if He was incomplete - which is impossible. The potential to deceive is not an ability, but a disability, a brokenness. It is not the opposite of goodness, for that implies equality coincident with its opposition. No, it is a vacuum in which no goodness is found. In the purest sense, outer space is not the opposite of our atmosphere - it is the lack of an atmosphere.

rcjones Oct 18, '10 9:51 pm

Re: Does God deceive people?
 
God says things in a way that permit the unbelieving to justify their unbelief , thus hardening their hearts, and for the believing to grow in their belief.

Take the arguement based around the Christmas psalm.. is it a young woman or a virgin?

The answer is that it is both. In the literal historical sense it was a prophecy fulfilled in that time concerning a young woman. So the unbeliever says that there is only one sense of scriptures and therefore it does not speak of Christ.

The believer knows that it does.

Take the words of the serpent in Genesis:

1. You will not die
2. You will be like God
3. Your eyes will be opened
4. You will know good and evil

The doubter says that:
1. Adam did not die that day
2. He became 'his own man' and became like God
3. His eyes were opened to his nakedness
4. He then knew good and evil

And conclude that the serpent told the truth and God lied.

But the believer hears the same words and discerns that:
1. Adam died spiritually that day.
2. He became a slave to sin, not like God at all
3. Not only did he become blind that day, but deaf, lame and dead.
4. And he knew only evil all the day long

So the doubter accuses God of being deceptive in such double entendre, and the believer knows that God alone is True.

The doubter sealed in unbelief, and the believer growing in grace and knowledge of the Lord.

fakename Aug 17, '12 11:16 pm

Re: Does God deceive people?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by po18guy (Post 7157671)
Indeed. Goodness is completeness, and deception is a lack of completeness. God, being complete, could only deceive if He was incomplete - which is impossible. The potential to deceive is not an ability, but a disability, a brokenness. It is not the opposite of goodness, for that implies equality coincident with its opposition. No, it is a vacuum in which no goodness is found. In the purest sense, outer space is not the opposite of our atmosphere - it is the lack of an atmosphere.

The real question is whether deception is really a type of non-being or a non-good.

Sometimes deception is good as when the jews employed spies.

So the question is rather, was it good for God to deceive Abraham?

But was Abraham deceived? It seems so, since if I were to tell someone to do something, as if it was my intention, and to later say that it was not my intention, then I have deceived someone (so it seems) as to my intentions.

I would submit, w/o talking about this specific case, that some deception or "manipulation" is good.

Huiou Theou Aug 18, '12 2:16 am

Re: Does God deceive people?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke K (Post 7148477)
Pope Pius IX in Dei Filius said:


It's a common-sense notion of Christianity that God does not deceive us. But with the story of Abraham sacrificing Isaac, God "pretended" to want Abraham to sacrifice Isaac in order to test him. Wasn't that deception?

No, not really. As a Catholic, I receive the Eucharist and offer myself in sacrifice in union with Jesus upon the altar. It is a living sacrifice. God really did want him sacrificed, just not in the way you're thinking ?

Abraham knew that he would receive Isaac back alive because of the promise. He reasoned to the resurrection. St. Paul notes this explicitly in one of his epistles. In the OT, there is only one sentence that shows this clearly:

Abraham says, "we who will have gone over there to worship will come back to you."; The only condition for them both coming back, is that they succeed in worshiping. Hence, it is impossible to assert that Abraham was deceived. Nor is it proper to say that God attempted to deceive him. God DID test him.

There is more I can say -- but I think this is enough for now. Does it help or does it raise more questions for you?

Nelka Aug 18, '12 5:13 am

Re: Does God deceive people?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke K (Post 7148477)
Does God deceive people?

No.

bmonk Aug 20, '12 8:23 pm

Re: Does God deceive people?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke K (Post 7148477)
It's a common-sense notion of Christianity that God does not deceive us. But with the story of Abraham sacrificing Isaac, God "pretended" to want Abraham to sacrifice Isaac in order to test him. Wasn't that deception?

Another passage from 2 Kings chapter 6 (vs. 13-23) talks about Elisha praying to God to blind the Aramean soldiers that were trying to kill him, which God did. Then, Elisha told them that they were on the wrong road and in the wrong city, meaning that they were in the wrong place for finding Elisha. Elisha brought them to safe Israelite territory and then had God open their eyes. So in this case God aided Elisha in deceiving the Arameans so that they would be led into safe territory for Elisha to reveal himself to them.

How can these examples be reconciled with a non-deceptive God?

The Rabbis note that, after Abraham sacrificed Isaac, the Bible does not record that Abraham ever saw Isaac again. That is a sacrifice, if not the one Abraham assumed he would be making.

Although it's a stretch, Elisha may have asked God to make their blindness to the truth of faith extend to blindness in the world. Notice that Elisha's attendant has his eyes opened to the hosts of the Lord who surrounded them. And Elisha does do as he says: he takes the soldiers to "the man they want"--if not quite in the way they wanted.

I do not have faith in a God who deceives. That was resolved long ago, when the Docetists claimed that Jesus was not really a human who suffered and died, but who only seemed to do all that. If God lies to us and deceives us, what is the use of believing him? If God cannot show us truth, we are truly hopeless, as St. Paul says, "we are the most pitiable people of all" (1 Cor 15:12-19).

But God does sometimes give us, not what we ask, but what we really need. That is not deceit--if our child asks for candy for breakfast, we say, "No, what you need and want is this, even if you don't really know it." And God's care for us is even more utterly total.

Huiou Theou Aug 21, '12 3:08 am

Re: Does God deceive people?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bmonk (Post 9674243)
Although it's a stretch, Elisha may have asked God to make their blindness to the truth of faith extend to blindness in the world. Notice that Elisha's attendant has his eyes opened to the hosts of the Lord who surrounded them. And Elisha does do as he says: he takes the soldiers to "the man they want"--if not quite in the way they wanted.

:)

They were, in fact, in the wrong place to see Elisha -- for they were blind for as long as they were in the wrong city.

Consider: If he had revealed himself there, they would have died at the hands of the host of heaven -- and died in their sins.

It really isn't a lie to omit certain facts which are not good for a person to have; either that they may do evil with them, or be led astray by them, or even fail to grow.

What do you think of another puzzle, on the road to Emmaeus -- where Jesus is asked "Are you the only pilgrim in Jerusalem who doesn't know what things have gone on these last days?" Luke 24:18

How very perceptive of that disciple!!!! Yet, Jesus says what?
:)

bmonk Aug 21, '12 9:33 am

Re: Does God deceive people?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Huiou Theou (Post 9675154)
What do you think of another puzzle, on the road to Emmaeus -- where Jesus is asked "Are you the only pilgrim in Jerusalem who doesn't know what things have gone on these last days?" Luke 24:18

How very perceptive of that disciple!!!! Yet, Jesus says what?
:)

He follows by unfolding the Scriptures for them--showing why the Messiah had to suffer and die. And it's only at the end, after a day of walking seven miles, and they invite him to stay with them that night, that he shows himself in "the breaking of the bread," of course. So he does remove their blindness, does not deceive them--but all in proper order. . . .

Huiou Theou Aug 21, '12 12:36 pm

Re: Does God deceive people?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bmonk (Post 9676306)
He follows by unfolding the Scriptures for them--showing why the Messiah had to suffer and die. And it's only at the end, after a day of walking seven miles, and they invite him to stay with them that night, that he shows himself in "the breaking of the bread," of course. So he does remove their blindness, does not deceive them--but all in proper order. . . .


I like that answer. :yyeess::)

I'm thinking, also, that they were blind in two ways. As to his presence, and secondly to the invisible things which had happened during the distractions of the last few days.:highprayer:

A G Aug 22, '12 7:43 am

Re: Does God deceive people?
 
God does not deceive people. In the case with Abraham and Isaac, God was testing Abraham's faith and obedience to Him. No deception has been made here, it was simply a test of faith.

Augustine3 Aug 22, '12 3:22 pm

Re: Does God deceive people?
 
What about this:

The LORD asked, 'Who will deceive Ahab, so that he will go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?' And one said this, another that, until one of the spirits came forth and presented himself to the LORD, saying, 'I will deceive him.' The LORD asked, 'How?' He answered, 'I will go forth and become a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets.' The LORD replied, 'You shall succeed in deceiving him. Go forth and do this. 'So now, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours, but the LORD himself has decreed evil against you." - 1Kings 22:20-23

I would like to get people’s comments on this...

Many thanks!

fakename Aug 22, '12 11:29 pm

Re: Does God deceive people?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Augustine3 (Post 9682315)
What about this:

The LORD asked, 'Who will deceive Ahab, so that he will go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?' And one said this, another that, until one of the spirits came forth and presented himself to the LORD, saying, 'I will deceive him.' The LORD asked, 'How?' He answered, 'I will go forth and become a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets.' The LORD replied, 'You shall succeed in deceiving him. Go forth and do this. 'So now, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours, but the LORD himself has decreed evil against you." - 1Kings 22:20-23

I would like to get people’s comments on this...

Many thanks!

Again, I would venture that God is deceiving people. But lying is frankly a no-no, so his spirit or angel would not be lying. For some reason, perhaps to conceal its' pearls from swine, the bible is written in ways that could be misleadingly interpreted.

nordskoven Aug 23, '12 9:28 am

Re: Does God deceive people?
 
Those that have not the love of the truth will have cause to believe a lie. John 8:32

In this God says, "If you've hardened your heart to the Way, Truth & Life and being outside time and space gazing into eternity I see you are confirmed in your obstnance, I hereby give you your wish."

The deception of Abraham was stunning, suggesting he was tapping into two channels, and God denies having put this into his head. Close one. And that is the true nature of miracles: TIMING! Nonetheless, it is a good place to note that Christ fulfills in a sacred way everything that any and all religions forwarded, including child sacrifice.

Huiou Theou Aug 28, '12 4:03 pm

Re: Does God deceive people?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fakename (Post 9683880)
Again, I would venture that God is deceiving people. But lying is frankly a no-no, so his spirit or angel would not be lying. For some reason, perhaps to conceal its' pearls from swine, the bible is written in ways that could be misleadingly interpreted.

If it were God's own spirit, then yes -- it would not lie. But I think the text here doesn't allow us that luxury. The spirit is clearly going to lie.

On the other hand, who was it that stood in heaven to hear this conversation with God? and to *whom* did that person tell the story?

Read the context of the statement, and it will become clear that God did not *himself* lie to Achab. Nor did God, himself, tell the lying spirit what lie they were to tell. The odds are greater than 400:1 against God deceiving Achab.

Recall, that the Book of Job, too -- speaks about the accuser; the devil himself; appearing before God to lay charges against Job. God allowed the devil to put Job to the test.

There is a sense which must be upheld, where God truly did put a lying spirit in the mouth of the prophets of Achab. There is also a sense where the king of Judah (the remaining holy/faithful kingdom whom God reserved to himself) could discern that there was need of another voice that Achab was refusing to call upon.

rcjones Sep 4, '12 5:46 pm

Re: Does God deceive people?
 
The problem with the question, and frankly most of the answers is the failure to recognize that words have more than one meaning.

The robes that the priests wear are "garments of deception" they are costumes as they play-act the role of Christ. Jesus spoke in parables for a purpose "So they would not hear".
Even the simplest "Where are you?" spoken to Adam can be contrived to mean something wicked, as a lie that Adam was really able to hide from God, when God knew where he was.

The sleight of hand by a 'magic' performer is a deception.

The word 'deception' does not always mean something evil or a lie. God does his will, and it is always good. That is the foundation for interpretation. So if you think God sinned by lying, you are just plain and simple wrong.

God does not change! Yet God became a baby, isn't that a change? The God-man grew into a man, isn't that a change? The man walked around and changed his location... "God does not change" means what God intended it to mean. Not some absolutist pedantic insistence that is means narrowly what some interpreter says it means. Words have many meanings, and when God uses them, they mean what he intends.

So Christ was hidden in the Old Testament. Yes that was a deception, it wasn't sin.
Gideon and his men broke pots with lanterns in them. It was a deception, not sin.
God said the day Adam ate the fruit he would die. The serpent accused God of lying because Adam would not die physically that day. But Adam did die spiritually exactly as God intended.

God does not sinfully deceive people because he does not sin, but he certainly does things that fall into the broader meaning of deceit without sinning.

bmonk Sep 7, '12 4:23 pm

Re: Does God deceive people?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rcjones (Post 9733576)
The problem with the question, and frankly most of the answers is the failure to recognize that words have more than one meaning.

The robes that the priests wear are "garments of deception" they are costumes as they play-act the role of Christ.

Ummm, I don't know about your church, but as Catholics, we don't "play-act" the role of Christ. We "take the place of Christ" in order to do as he commanded us, "Do this in memory of me." To do it, someone needs to take Christ's place.

More, the garments are not costumes. Christ would not have worn them--they are Roman in origin, from the period of the Empire--indeed, in the early centuries, they were the same as other members of the Empire wore.

rcjones Sep 7, '12 6:30 pm

Re: Does God deceive people?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bmonk (Post 9746381)
Ummm, I don't know about your church, but as Catholics, we don't "play-act" the role of Christ. We "take the place of Christ" in order to do as he commanded us, "Do this in memory of me." To do it, someone needs to take Christ's place.

More, the garments are not costumes. Christ would not have worn them--they are Roman in origin, from the period of the Empire--indeed, in the early centuries, they were the same as other members of the Empire wore.

Um... since Catholic priests are not mentioned in the scriptures, it should be apparent that the reference was not to them. The Hebrew priests in the tabernacle wore garments...

Huiou Theou Sep 7, '12 11:29 pm

Re: Does God deceive people?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rcjones (Post 9746723)
Um... since Catholic priests are not mentioned in the scriptures, it should be apparent that the reference was not to them. The Hebrew priests in the tabernacle wore garments...

They still do; Revelation 4:4.
There were 24 divisions of priests serving in the temple; as instituted by King David. They all wore linen garments of white.

There is no play-acting in heaven !

As Catholics, we are all priests -- although not "high" priest; but the common priesthood. See Also, Revel 1:6.

Not only that, but actual blood sacrifice can be offered by us.

Philippians 2:17 and the "if" becomes solid in 2Timothy 4:6.
Translations that put "like" in Phippians 2:17 are plain wrong. The word "like" is nowhere in the original Greek and is eisegesis.
http://biblos.com/philippians/2-17.htm

St. Paul is talking about the offering of his life in witness to Christ Jesus as a martyr; but also about the spilling of his blood.

Normally, we do not shed blood as priests -- but act as a living sacrifice through communion (Eucharist) of thanks giving / and the Good Gift.

The sacrifice of the priests in the OT did have an effect; it is simply that Christ Jesus's has a complete effect.

I see nowhere in the OT, that the Levitical priests ever claimed to offer sacrifices that had a completed effect. I see no deception.

bmonk Sep 8, '12 10:05 am

Re: Does God deceive people?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rcjones (Post 9746723)
Um... since Catholic priests are not mentioned in the scriptures, it should be apparent that the reference was not to them. The Hebrew priests in the tabernacle wore garments...

In fact, there are references to priests of the Church--or presbyters, as they were originally called. Priest in English is derived, not from the classical words for priests, such as sacerdos, but from presbyter, elder. And in fact, both 1 Tim 5 and Titus 1 speak of such "elders," not yet clearly distinguished from episcopoi, overseers or leaders. (This was clearer by the time of the First Letter of Clement, written about 88-97, and also by Ignatius of Antioch, writing about 110 on his way to be martyred.)

Interestingly, Acts 15, the "Council of Jerusalem" speaks of the "apostles and elders" meeting--although it is not perfectly clear that these are seen in the same way as the later presbyters, it is noteworthy that there are two classes, distinct in some way, and also distinct from the ministers or deacons appointed earlier for the ministry to distribute food to the widows. We already see the three orders beginning to exist.

More, Isaiah 66:18-21 speaks of God gathering in all the nations, and taking "some of them" as "priests and Levites." The ingathering begins with the ministry of Jesus, and then the Church as described in the Acts (the Ethopian eunuch, the house of Cornelius, and then Paul's widespread ministry)--and so the priests and Levites should also be seen in those days. Which is precisely when bishops, priests and deacons begin to show up.

True, it did take some time for these orders to be clarified and fully developed--but not all that long. And, as Jesus said at the Last Supper in John 16, the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, will lead us to all truth--one aspect of which is remembering what Jesus said, although "he cannot say it all now," and helping the Church understand and unfold what was said.


I also still find it hard to understand in your original comment how the Hebrew priesthood was "play-acting" the role of Christ, since He would not come along for many centuries after Moses. Perhaps that confusion led me to interpret your comment in a way you did not intend.

rcjones Sep 9, '12 4:09 am

Re: Does God deceive people?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Huiou Theou (Post 9747543)
...
The sacrifice of the priests in the OT did have an effect; it is simply that Christ Jesus's has a complete effect.


Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
If they can NEVER take away sins, then they were ineffectual. Therefore they were prophetic "play acting" of what Christ would accomplish.

rcjones Sep 9, '12 4:28 am

Re: Does God deceive people?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Huiou Theou (Post 9747543)

I see nowhere in the OT, that the Levitical priests ever claimed to offer sacrifices that had a completed effect. I see no deception.

This shows you completely missed the point of my post. A deception does not require an evil, wicked, intention. Looking for one by the Levitical priests misses the point. A costume is called a "garment of deception". The priests wore a 'costume' where every part was a prophecy of Christ.


Le 16:4 He shall put on the holy linen coat, and he shall have the linen breeches upon his flesh, and shall be girded with a linen girdle, and with the linen mitre shall he be attired: these are holy garments <0899>; therefore shall he wash his flesh in water, and so put them on.

0899 בגד beged behg’- ed

from 0898; n m; {See TWOT on 198 @@ "198a"}

AV-garment 107, clothes 69, cloth 13, raiment 12, apparel 4, robe 4, wardrobe 2, very 2, clothing 1, lap 1, rags 1, vestures 1; 217

1) treachery, deceit
2) (CLBL) garment, clothing (used indiscriminately)


Obviously there is no wickedness or treachery when a priest wears garments that he was commanded to wear by God. That is my point. It is a costume. The word deceipt is used to describe a costume.

The first garment made by God was made of skins as a "costume" which promised that we would be covered by the works of Christ. Today we are supposed to "put on Christ" like a garment.

Huiou Theou Sep 9, '12 10:16 pm

Re: Does God deceive people?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rcjones (Post 9751119)

Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
If they can NEVER take away sins, then they were ineffectual. Therefore they were prophetic "play acting" of what Christ would accomplish.

No, they did have an effect:

Hebre 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Hebre 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

In order for Christ's sacrifice to have any effect, it had to be under the Law.
God made an agreement with Moses concerning the law of Sacrifice, it is for this reason that Christ had to die to take away our sins. Without the agreement with Moses, there would be no need for the Cross; and no sure effect.

I think it clearly incorrect to say the priests of the OT's sacrifice had no effect at all.

They were not play acting -- they simply didn't have the FULL power.

Many times in the OT, God accepts Israels sin offerings and forgives their sins; not in the pent-ultimate sense -- but none the less, he remitted Earthy punishment for sack-cloth, ashes, and sacrifice.

I think what you are saying is puffed up nonsense.

Huiou Theou Sep 9, '12 10:20 pm

Re: Does God deceive people?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rcjones (Post 9751132)
This shows you completely missed the point of my post. A deception does not require an evil, wicked, intention.

There is no deception. They did not pretend to be the ultimate savior -- and their clothes has nothing to do with it. If they are deception -- then so are you; for your putting on of Christ is but a foretaste of the resurrected body.

Quote:

The first garment made by God was made of skins as a "costume" which promised that we would be covered by the works of Christ. Today we are supposed to "put on Christ" like a garment.
There is a large jump in logic, and besides -- it's getting off topic.

rcjones Sep 10, '12 8:15 am

Re: Does God deceive people?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Huiou Theou (Post 9754386)
...
. If they are deception -- then so are you;
...
I think what you are saying is puffed up nonsense.

Attacking me rather than discuss the subject? That's usually a sign you have lost an argument.

Topic: Does God deceive.

The word 'deceive' must be understood in context of the scriptures. Use garments as an example.

1. The word means 'deception'. Since God does nothing sinful, the Hebrew word has nuances which are not carried through to the English.

2. All garments are 'costumes' since they portray us to be something we are not. They are a 'deception'.

3. When we 'put on Christ' it is a kind of costume since we have no personal righteousness,

The topic of garments as a deception is an example of the primary point.

The objection is based on the claim that the sacrifices of animals had "some effect" therefore we can't say that they were ineffectual. This is pure sophistry as evidenced by the statement:

The sacrifice of the priests in the OT did have an effect; it is simply that Christ Jesus's has a complete effect.
...Many times in the OT, God accepts Israels sin offerings and forgives their sins; not in the pent-ultimate sense

The word 'penultimate' means 'next to the last'. 'Ultimate' means 'last'.
Everything before the ultimate sense of forgiveness of sins is shadow and type. It is forgiveness based on the promise of Christ's completed work on the cross.

One of the first rules of Biblical interpretation is that 'clear statements rule'.
God clearly states:

Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
It is the interpreter's job to reconcile 'less clear statements' so that there is no contradiction.

The verse used to supposedly contradict the clear statement are these:

Hebre 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Hebre 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
In English, it is evident from the IF-HOW MUCH MORE statement, that the first sentence is used as the basis for a 'val chomer' or 'a fortiori argument' in which the truthfulness of the first statement is not the issue, but is being used as a starting point of agreement with the opponent in order to build the real case. Simply putting the quoted verses in context makes this clear since the author specifically says that the tabernacles and sacrifices were 'figure' or types of the sacrifice of Christ.
7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
8 ¶ The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Figures and types are a kind of 'deception' used by God for teaching and preparing us for Christ.

Heb 10:1 ¶ For the law having a shadow of good things to come, [and] not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
The law was not the very image of the good things coming. The shadow of the law is the reality. The people living under the law thought that the law was everything, that it was part of the kingdom on earth. They were 'deceived' in order to be instructed.

Point made: The word 'deceived' does not imply evil. It includes types and shadows. It includes garments which foreshadow Christ. It includes the garment of Christ which conceals our sinfulness as we are presented to God. 'Deception' involves concealing truth:
Pr 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.
So until 'deceive' is clearly understood, the discussion if God deceives cannot be held.
It is a 'trap type question'. It is one like the religious rulers would present to Jesus to entrap him.

If you use the narrow sense of 'deceive' to imply something evil, then the trap is set because God does many things to conceal the truth until it was revealed at the time of Christ. Those examples are then used to show that God is evil.

If you use the broader meaning, without coming to consensus that it is being used in the broader meaning, then those who wish to set the trap, use the concession that God does deceive, in the narrow sense to to imply that God is evil.

Experts in Childhood learning tell us that the person of average intelligence learns that words have more than one meaning when they are about eight years old. Puns and word play are mechanisms for learning such a thing. When an adult denies that words have multiple meanings, either explicitly or implicitly, it means that they do not have ordinary command of the language, or they are intentionally using sophistry to make illegitimate arguments appear to be sound.

No one truly wishing to communicate would deny the clarification of the terms used in the discussion.

rcjones Sep 10, '12 10:47 am

Re: Does God deceive people?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Huiou Theou (Post 9754386)
...
In order for Christ's sacrifice to have any effect, it had to be under the Law.
God made an agreement with Moses concerning the law of Sacrifice, it is for this reason that Christ had to die to take away our sins. Without the agreement with Moses, there would be no need for the Cross; and no sure effect.
...

I think what you are saying is puffed up nonsense.

According to your premise, then, since those before Moses were not under the law, and since the gentiles weren't under the law, then the cross is not needed for their salvation.

The sacrifice of Christ is prophesied in the Hebrew of Gen 1.1, Gen 2.21, 3.21, etc. The Hebrew word for 'said' is also 'lamb'. When God 'said' "Let there be light", he created light by the lamb. Adam knew when God killed a lamb to cover his nakedness, that the Creator was slain in typology and as a promise. This is why Abel chose to raise sheep even though he didn't eat them, in order to give back, in gratitude, of that which had been given as a promise.

Cain chose to live under the curse and gave back cursed gifts. Abel chose not to live under the curse, but under the promise and looked for a city not made with hands. He dedicated his life to raising sheep as a gift to God. All of the types and shadows beginning with Gen 1.1 point to the promise of the cross. The 'deal' made with Moses only served to reveal more of the details of the promise given to Adam.
Re 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (Not just since the 'deal' with Moses)

Huiou Theou Sep 10, '12 12:02 pm

Re: Does God deceive people?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rcjones (Post 9756054)
According to your premise, then, since those before Moses were not under the law, and since the gentiles weren't under the law, then the cross is not needed for their salvation.

Correct.
God could have saved us in many ways besides the Cross. This is a standard point in St. Thomas Aquinas's Theology.

Again, this is off topic. And, don't forget -- Genesis is also part of the LAW (Torah)

Quote:

Re 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (Not just since the 'deal' with Moses)
There are many worlds.
The world of Noe ended with the flood, and a new world began.
When heaven was opened (by the slaying of the lamb) a perfect world (foundation) began.
Chapter 13 is about the events which happened immediately after that world was opened; Nero, and the rise of kings who persecute Christians, etc.

Again, this is more off topic -- and I won't trace these ideas out here; or any more.

Huiou Theou Sep 10, '12 12:14 pm

Re: Does God deceive people?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rcjones (Post 9755531)
Attacking me rather than discuss the subject? That's usually a sign you have lost an argument.

The reference is a logical corollary to the word "garment", it's not a personal attack on anything other than your vocabulary abuse;

Your flesh is the "tent" you live in -- it is therefore your garment. As a Christian, you purport to "put on Christ" (St. Paul,right???); However, you aren't wholly Jesus Christ -- hence, you are a "play actor" every bit as much as the OT priests.

Hence: Your Christianity, by your own words, can be labeled "deception".

Quote:

Topic: Does God deceive.
Not topic; do OT priests deceive.

Quote:

1. The word means 'deception'. Since God does nothing sinful, the Hebrew word has nuances which are not carried through to the English.
The English word "deception" is not a Hebrew word; it's a translation and interpretation. IF you wish to show that it can mean "deception" in the English sense of the word in addition to your sense of the word, you need to show at least one example where it clearly means a betrayal of the truth.

Quote:

2. All garments are 'costumes' since they portray us to be something we are not. They are a 'deception'.
Sorry, I already QUOTED the passage in Revelation about the priests who offer up prayers to God (Our prayers, incidentally) wearing priestly linens.
These clothes DO NOT portray them as being something they are not.
IN Catholic Theology (and Teaching and Tradition) nothing impure can enter heaven (period). These clothes, then, do not represent a clean exterior and a false interior. I will not budge from Catholic Tradition; period.

Note, also, they throw down their crowns in homage to Jesus Christ -- but they don't take off their clothes. Logical inferences can be made.

Quote:

3. When we 'put on Christ' it is a kind of costume since we have no personal righteousness,
Wrong. We have no initial righteousness.
This is, again, off topic.


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:08 am.


Copyright © 2004-2013, Catholic Answers.