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-   -   Was the Holy Spirit on duty in the Conclave on Tuesday? (http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=50978)

Pontificate Apr 20, '05 12:27 am

Was the Holy Spirit on duty in the Conclave on Tuesday?
 

As a born Catholic, who came to wrestle with faith and finally returned staunchly to the Church, I don’t know what to make of this election. For the avoidance of doubt, the Catholic Church should have no room for fickleness; the Church should remain strong in its doctrine. Let those who like it be part of it and those who don’t should simply fall out, instead of wanting to change the Church.

I am befuddled by this election, not because of Ratzinger’s stance on doctrine—I love that—but by the totality of his worldview. The German prelate pronounced last year that Turkey should not join the EU because that country does not share the Christian roots of Europe. To the cardinal, the separation of the Christianity and Islam is so immutable that countries variously dominated by the two faiths have no business sharing the same umbrella. What happened to the fisherman of God doctrine?

This matter must have been boiling in Ratzinger’s mind for so long that he could no longer contain himself, forcing him to go OUT HIS WAY to remark on the membership of the EU. For the dean of cardinals (i.e., a man holding an ecumenical office) to covet Europe in that manner and to subscribe to such a narrow and ethnocentric view, rather than see the world as his constituency, is troubling. And to do that at a time when his principal was so much focused on improving relations with Muslims, Jews, and other Christians. He is still fighting the Crusades, and doing so in a rather crude fashion.

Calling other Christian denominations “defective,” as he duly etched in a major Vatican document, is insensitive, to say the least. His snide remark about Buddism is often remarked upon in uncomplimentary terms. Nobody can say that the aforementioned remarks were helpful to John Paul II’s work. No, Ratzinger, if these are the sort of “absolute truths” you are so much fixated with, nobody needs absolute truths. When a prelate so much undermined his principal (despite Ratzinger’s much-touted attachment to JP) and outrages many devoted followers of his own doctrinal tendency, crowning him pontiff should have been out of consideration.

Is it that there are so many prelates in the mould of the German pontiff that they did not consider his views xenophobic? Is it that Ratzinger’s xenophobic views resonate with most cardinals who, nevertheless, lacked his audacity? In other words, do Ratzinger’s xenophobic views speak to the tendency a large cross section of the voting cardinals? I sincerely hope a good number of the cardinals that voted for him were unaware of his xenophobic utterances. My major consolation is that, in the very least, many cardinals resisted his emergence, which was why there were up to four rounds of votes.

I hate to say it, but the new pontiff is a divider, not a unifier.

geezerbob Apr 20, '05 5:52 am

Re: Was the Holy Spirit on duty in the Conclave on Tuesday?
 
If what he speaks is truth, then so be it.

aimee Apr 20, '05 6:09 am

Re: Was the Holy Spirit on duty in the Conclave on Tuesday?
 
HMMM...just joined ...2 posts....unhappy are you?

Scott_Lafrance Apr 20, '05 6:09 am

Re: Was the Holy Spirit on duty in the Conclave on Tuesday?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by geezerbob
If what he speaks is truth, then so be it.

Jesus did not come to bring peace, but a sword. Whomever thinks the pope should concede the truth in the name of ecumenism and unity should join the Episcopalian church.

Genesis315 Apr 20, '05 6:18 am

Re: Was the Holy Spirit on duty in the Conclave on Tuesday?
 
I think we would all prefer a Christian Europe over an Islamic Europe. I mean, as Christians, how can we not desire that the world become more Christian instead of more Islamic? As for defective churches, protestantism has a false theology and therefore the truth it teaches has defects. These things have always been taught by the Church. Some just have a nicer way of saying it than others.:thumbsup:

FightingFat Apr 20, '05 6:24 am

Re: Was the Holy Spirit on duty in the Conclave on Tuesday?
 
I disagree with Scott (I know that wont suprise him) but I am happy about the appointment and humbly accept the message that God has sent us with respect to the Church and it's values.

I do not, however, rule out the Pope working especially in these difficult areas to the benefit of the whole world. He has worked closely with John Paul and knows better than any his goals aims and aspirations. He is blessed with a towering intellect and by all accounts is extremely spiritual and very devout. He considers before he speaks. We must also accept that he is now working with the Holy Spirit and one should never presuppose God's plan. I am excited and happy and feel safe and warm in the love of my God, all I need do is trust to him.

Scott_Lafrance Apr 20, '05 6:29 am

Re: Was the Holy Spirit on duty in the Conclave on Tuesday?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FightingFat
I disagree with Scott (I know that wont suprise him) but I am happy about the appointment and humbly accept the message that God has sent us with respect to the Church and it's values.

I do not, however, rule out the Pope working especially in these difficult areas to the benefit of the whole world. He has worked closely with John Paul and knows better than any his goals aims and aspirations. He is blessed with a towering intellect and by all accounts is extremely spiritual and very devout. He considers before he speaks. We must also accept that he is now working with the Holy Spirit and one should never presuppose God's plan. I am excited and happy and feel safe and warm in the love of my God, all I need do is trust to him.

FF, I don't think we disagree. I don't think that that Pope Benedict will concede doctrine for unity. I just wish that people who think that the pope has the authority to change things that cannot be changed would either learn and live their faith or leave it.

FightingFat Apr 20, '05 6:35 am

Re: Was the Holy Spirit on duty in the Conclave on Tuesday?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott_Lafrance
FF, I don't think we disagree. I don't think that that Pope Benedict will concede doctrine for unity. I just wish that people who think that the pope has the authority to change things that cannot be changed would either learn and live their faith or leave it.

A very good point- and one well worth labouring, frankly I have been astounded by the media coverage in that it seems clear they felt that a more liberal choice would have resulted in a change on pro-life issues such as abortion and contraception. This was never a consideration and Church teaching, based on the Gospel of Jesus Christ does not change in these regards.

BOANERGES21 Apr 20, '05 6:45 am

Re: Was the Holy Spirit on duty in the Conclave on Tuesday?
 
I will have to read up on new Pope's previous statements. Using the word 'defective' does make a bit of a scraping sound but I do find it better then setting out a bush (word) that everyone has to beat around to before undstanding its meaning. We all feel different religions are defective to a point just as they feel we are. I think it's a fair & qualified statement. Be fair and loving but like Mr Lafrance stated, he's bringing the sword. That's the part of the Church's purpose. I have no doubt that Benedict will focus on this Europe bretheran.

And without question, the Holy Spirit was present. The Holy Spirit was always present. Even when questionable Popes have been chosen.

As far as will he divide or unify us? Time will tell. You may or may not be right. I'll pray for unification!

FightingFat Apr 20, '05 6:56 am

Re: Was the Holy Spirit on duty in the Conclave on Tuesday?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BOANERGES21
I'll pray for unification!

http://www.dragonslist.com/discussio...es/thumbup.gif




:amen:

Trelow Apr 20, '05 7:02 am

Re: Was the Holy Spirit on duty in the Conclave on Tuesday?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott_Lafrance
Jesus did not come to bring peace, but a sword. Whomever thinks the pope should concede the truth in the name of ecumenism and unity should join the Episcopalian church.

:Amen:

geezerbob Apr 20, '05 7:02 am

Re: Was the Holy Spirit on duty in the Conclave on Tuesday?
 
He said yesterday that unity was his priority. Link to an AP article here:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp..._on_re_eu/pope

Pontificate Apr 20, '05 11:28 am

Re: Was the Holy Spirit on duty in the Conclave on Tuesday?
 
How easy it is for Scott et al to confuse doctrine with xenophobia against Islam and other Christian denomination. People in those religions/sects are doing their own thing, and this is why I think those Catholics clamoring to change the doctrinal foundations of the Church should join any of the existing other religions or form new ones that conform to their fancies and leave Catholicism alone. Mohammed and Martin Luther and the rest did that, and the Church has waxed even stronger.

I do not, however, know how keeping Muslims separate, instead of closer, as Cardinal Ratzinger (and hopefully not Pope Benedict XVI) wanted it, manifests the doctrine.


Bringing Turkey into the EU, I think, would be a great opportunity to expose the Turk to Christianity. The Cardinal’s position gives the impression that Christianity is in the genes! This is what worries me. I am unable to see how this is the “truth.” It is flat out false, to say nothing about its moral and practical implications. It is not even a one-off slip; it fitted into a pattern, such as referring to other Christian denominations as “defective” and his embarrassing characterization of Buddhism.



I fail to see anything so profound in the statement that the prelate felt compelled to share it with the whole world. The dean of cardinals—an ecumenical officeholder—should not have coveted Europe that way.



I am not looking for a liberal Pope, unless you guys are saying that zenophobia is a hallmark of conservatism. It is possible to get a Pope who is not liberal and not ethnocentric, even if he is conservative and stands by the Catholic doctrine. That’s my point, but I now have no choice but to join the likes of Boanerges21 in prayer for the best to come from the new pontiff.

Piusx Apr 20, '05 11:37 am

Re: Was the Holy Spirit on duty in the Conclave on Tuesday?
 
For darn sure the Holy Spirit was in attendence!

Us, The poor laiety did not get Martini or Mahoney or Daneels did we?

God showed us a lot of mercy.
God forgave us and the church.

PiusX

BLB_Oregon Apr 20, '05 12:34 pm

Re: Was the Holy Spirit on duty in the Conclave on Tuesday?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pontificate
I hate to say it, but the new pontiff is a divider, not a unifier.

The new pontiff has been called for all of what? Twenty-four hours? Whether you worry or rejoice... pray for him. He's what the Holy Spirit sent, and our job in his regard is clear, right? So you worry... you must admit, the Holy Spirit has allowed far worse to sit on Peter's Chair! Dismiss your anxiety and live in hope. When you need to, raise your voice humbly--and then to what he has done, not what you fear. Give the poor man a chance, already.

We Americans, being in a democracy, are raised to believe that our opinions and worries are so important and wise. (I don't exclude myself from this, mind you! ;) ) We have that duty to chime in at the ballot box and with our representatives, but not here, at least not yet! Trust in God and pray for our daily bread: spiritual and corporal. He will provide it.


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