Catholic Answers Forums

Catholic Answers Forums (http://forums.catholic.com/index.php)
-   Popular Media (http://forums.catholic.com/forumdisplay.php?f=54)
-   -   "New media" apologist: Michael Voris and "The Vortex" videos from RealCatholicTV.com (on YouTube, etc) (http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=593854)

DavidFilmer Aug 29, '11 1:18 am

"New media" apologist: Michael Voris and "The Vortex" videos from RealCatholicTV.com (on YouTube, etc)
 
I participated in a thread questioning a particular "The Vortex" video (on YouTube) by Michael Voris of RealCatholicTV.com. Another responder posted a reply which claims:
Quote:

In general, Michael Voris does not represent mainstream Catholic views, even among Catholics faithful to the Magisterium. That's sort of the whole point of Michael Voris, actually.
I have watched maybe a half-dozen of the many "Vortex" videos available, and I have found each of them to be spot-on with regard to authentic and faithful Catholic teaching.

But I'm more of an "old school" fuddie-duddie (pushing 50 years old) who prefers the written word to a YouTube video (hey, I can construct a reliable search within plain text - and if you give me 20 minutes, I can build an indexed, searchable database), so I have only been exposed to a fairly limited portion of Voris' video catalog, and I really have no desire to sit up and watch much more. I wish he published transcripts (maybe he does???) - I can read at about 480 words a minute, but he speaks maybe 90 (heck, I type at about 100 words per minute - I can type faster than he talks).

Nevertheless, I am concerned with this claim against a "new media" Catholic apologist who has, so far, earned my respect. Does Voris actually draw conclusions which are not supported by authentic Catholic Doctrine, as this particular respondent implies?

Dan Daly Aug 29, '11 1:22 am

Re: "New media" apologist: Michael Voris and "The Vortex" videos from RealCatholicTV.com (on YouTube, etc)
 
Everything I've seen of his is dead on with regards to Church teaching.

He is critical of modernist influences on the world and the Church. That's not opposed to Church teaching. It's actually in support of Church teaching since modernism is a condemned heresy. However, it doesn't make you popular in certain circles.

His special on "The Cost of Abortion" is very well done, and I highly recommend it.

If someone thinks Voris is saying something against Church teaching, offer up a specific. He's not infallible, so maybe he has. But in order to evaluate the charge, we'd need specifics.

Pax and God bless.

justtryin Aug 29, '11 1:44 am

Re: "New media" apologist: Michael Voris and "The Vortex" videos from RealCatholicTV.com (on YouTube, etc)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wowbagger (Post 8303308)
In general, Michael Voris does not represent mainstream Catholic views, even among Catholics faithful to the Magisterium. That's sort of the whole point of Michael Voris, actually.

But I haven't seen these particular videos, so I have no specific comment.


With a comment like that how can you trust that he has seen any videos?
I haven't watched the videos in question but I will now.

You should contact lizaanne (click)

From what I have seen of her posts she might be able to get a copy of transcripts in your hands.

Ignatius Aug 29, '11 2:07 am

Re: "New media" apologist: Michael Voris and "The Vortex" videos from RealCatholicTV.com (on YouTube, etc)
 
Everything I've seen is faithful to the Authentic Teachings of The Magisterium of The Catholic Church.

Samuel63 Aug 29, '11 3:19 am

Re: "New media" apologist: Michael Voris and "The Vortex" videos from RealCatholicTV.com (on YouTube, etc)
 
Michael is faithful to the Magisterium of the Church. He is also a real spiritual warrior. His teaching material is sound.

With that said, he is human and can make a mistake on occasion. I forgive him ahead of time.

He is however, removing the veil on members of our church's consecrated religious, priests and bishops, that are not aligned with the magisterium. This causes problems. Sides begin to form within the church revealing a rift that was really there already, but now is more visible.

Michael is now being attacked by people aligned with the liberal factions of the church. They are striking back.

I recommend supporting people like Michael and others that are true to the faith. If you belong to a "liberal" parish. Stay there and fight for change, but reduce your donations to a token amount. Give your money to forces that really are doing God's work.

God bless you all.

JRRTFAN Aug 29, '11 3:33 am

Re: "New media" apologist: Michael Voris and "The Vortex" videos from RealCatholicTV.com (on YouTube, etc)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidFilmer (Post 8303584)
I participated in a thread questioning a particular "The Vortex" video (on YouTube) by Michael Voris of RealCatholicTV.com. Another responder posted a reply which claims:
I have watched maybe a half-dozen of the many "Vortex" videos available, and I have found each of them to be spot-on with regard to authentic and faithful Catholic teaching.

But I'm more of an "old school" fuddie-duddie (pushing 50 years old) who prefers the written word to a YouTube video (hey, I can construct a reliable search within plain text - and if you give me 20 minutes, I can build an indexed, searchable database), so I have only been exposed to a fairly limited portion of Voris' video catalog, and I really have no desire to sit up and watch much more. I wish he published transcripts (maybe he does???) - I can read at about 480 words a minute, but he speaks maybe 90 (heck, I type at about 100 words per minute - I can type faster than he talks).

Nevertheless, I am concerned with this claim against a "new media" Catholic apologist who has, so far, earned my respect. Does Voris actually draw conclusions which are not supported by authentic Catholic Doctrine, as this particular respondent implies?

No, Voris speaks the truth that needs to be spoken.

Carolus Martell Aug 29, '11 3:40 am

Re: "New media" apologist: Michael Voris and "The Vortex" videos from RealCatholicTV.com (on YouTube, etc)
 
Does Voris actually draw conclusions which are not supported by authentic Catholic Doctrine, as this particular respondent implies?

No, not that I'm aware of anyway. He's an effective critic and sometimes they rub folks the wrong way. Here's a site http://www.theonetruefaith.tv/index....=04&content=20 with about 90 of his podcasts that interested posters can d/l and listen to while they're on the web.

PiousTemplar Aug 29, '11 5:18 am

Re: "New media" apologist: Michael Voris and "The Vortex" videos from RealCatholicTV.com (on YouTube, etc)
 
He's excellent.

lizaanne Aug 29, '11 5:44 am

Re: "New media" apologist: Michael Voris and "The Vortex" videos from RealCatholicTV.com (on YouTube, etc)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by justtryin (Post 8303612)

You should contact lizaanne (click)

From what I have seen of her posts she might be able to get a copy of transcripts in your hands.

No need! :) All of the most recent Vortex episodes have text versions available. You must go directly to the site to access these, they are not available on YouTube. Click the link in my signature to log into the site. RealCatholicTV.com is not solely a YouTube channel (though videos are posted there).

Keep in mind that Vortex is only an extremely small portion of what is produced by RealCatholicTV. There are hundreds of hours of solid Catholic programming on the premium site - talks, homilies, apologetics training, catechism, prayers, and so much more!!! :thumbsup:

~Liza

rossum Aug 29, '11 7:46 am

Re: "New media" apologist: Michael Voris and "The Vortex" videos from RealCatholicTV.com (on YouTube, etc)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidFilmer (Post 8303584)
I have watched maybe a half-dozen of the many "Vortex" videos available, and I have found each of them to be spot-on with regard to authentic and faithful Catholic teaching.

The ones you watched may have been. There are others which I hope are not:
2:03

Ruthless men and women who - knowing human nature very well - and thereby the means to control and manipulate it, wield great influence over the selfish masses. They can connive and scheme their way to power by appealing to the most base level of human ignorance, namely the appeal to a false sense of liberty. They class everything in terms of “rights.” A “right” to marry your homosexual sex partner. The “rights” to kill your child. A “right” to have others in society pay for your lack of effort, your desire for contraception, food, housing, medical services, education, clothes, anything that can be imagined.

Such societal parasites will cast their vote in such a way that will only hasten the destruction of a nation. It is like a cancer that is destroying its host. It enjoys ravaging the body, until the body is dead.

The cancer must be eliminated. And the only way to prevent a democracy from committing suicide is to limit the vote to faithful Catholics. (Emphasis added)

3:03

Source: Catholic Government.
Are you seriously saying that Michael Voris is here following official Catholic policy?

rossum

Annie39 Aug 29, '11 8:39 am

Re: "New media" apologist: Michael Voris and "The Vortex" videos from RealCatholicTV.com (on YouTube, etc)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rossum (Post 8304377)
The ones you watched may have been. There are others which I hope are not:
2:03

Ruthless men and women who - knowing human nature very well - and thereby the means to control and manipulate it, wield great influence over the selfish masses. They can connive and scheme their way to power by appealing to the most base level of human ignorance, namely the appeal to a false sense of liberty. They class everything in terms of “rights.” A “right” to marry your homosexual sex partner. The “rights” to kill your child. A “right” to have others in society pay for your lack of effort, your desire for contraception, food, housing, medical services, education, clothes, anything that can be imagined.

Such societal parasites will cast their vote in such a way that will only hasten the destruction of a nation. It is like a cancer that is destroying its host. It enjoys ravaging the body, until the body is dead.

The cancer must be eliminated. And the only way to prevent a democracy from committing suicide is to limit the vote to faithful Catholics. (Emphasis added)

3:03

Source: Catholic Government.
Are you seriously saying that Michael Voris is here following official Catholic policy?

rossum

I read the above a few minutes ago. I had to laugh. Voris is certainly an "out of the box" thinker. He is tired of all of the evil in the world and thinks that faithful Catholics can fix things right up. Of course if he thinks it through he will realize that that isn't Catholic thinking. Catholic thinking is to change people's hearts through attempting to convert them, then they will vote along more moral lines. Jesus lived in occupied land. And the Apostles were persecuted for the faith but they didn't seem to suggest that the Christians take over politics. His idea is "if my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways then I will hear from heaven and forgive their sins and heal their land". I typed this from memory so it may not be exact but it seems to me that those folks who he thinks should take over the country are already commissioned to do a job that they may be shirking. It is His people to whom he speaks, not to others. So, we should humble ourselves and seek His face....

Annie

MarkBrown Aug 29, '11 8:51 pm

Re: "New media" apologist: Michael Voris and "The Vortex" videos from RealCatholicTV.com (on YouTube, etc)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rossum (Post 8304377)
The ones you watched may have been. There are others which I hope are not:
2:03

Ruthless men and women who - knowing human nature very well - and thereby the means to control and manipulate it, wield great influence over the selfish masses. They can connive and scheme their way to power by appealing to the most base level of human ignorance, namely the appeal to a false sense of liberty. They class everything in terms of “rights.” A “right” to marry your homosexual sex partner. The “rights” to kill your child. A “right” to have others in society pay for your lack of effort, your desire for contraception, food, housing, medical services, education, clothes, anything that can be imagined.

Such societal parasites will cast their vote in such a way that will only hasten the destruction of a nation. It is like a cancer that is destroying its host. It enjoys ravaging the body, until the body is dead.

The cancer must be eliminated. And the only way to prevent a democracy from committing suicide is to limit the vote to faithful Catholics. (Emphasis added)

3:03

Source: Catholic Government.
Are you seriously saying that Michael Voris is here following official Catholic policy?

rossum

As you present it, no. If one watches the ENTIRE 4 + minute video, yes. What you picked out concerned me. I was even more concerned when I clicked the link and went to the Richard Dawkins Foundation website. :eek: A quick Our Father and Hail Mary was enough to steady me. :D I watched the entire video.

Mr. Voris said nothing our Founding Fathers worried and talked about in such writings as the Federalist and Anti-Federalist papers and he was faithful to the Catholic Social teachings laid out in Encyclical letters starting with RERUM NOVARUM to PACEM IN TERRIS to SOLLICITUDO REI SOCIALIS ending with our current Popes teachings.

If I remember correctly, Ben Franklin is quoted as saying we have been giving a Republic, if we can keep it. I am sure the exact quote can be found on line. Democracy, as our Founders saw it was and is mob rule. No right or wrong, just who is the strongest. Alexander Hamilton warned against a Supreme Court, he opposed the creation of one as he thought giving 6 men (at that time) absolute power led to tyrants. He also warned against universal voting rights for once the population learns they can vote themselves money from the public funds, they will destroy the country by electing those who only seek power and will give from the public funds regardless of outcomes.

Mr Voris spoke on fallen human nature. Yep out of the Bible and Catechism. Thought he had a romantic view of Catholic Monarchs until I listened again and realize the qualifications. A Monarch based upon the Monarch of the Universe. I think the quote was "Your kingdom come on earth as it is in Heaven".

No need for alarm. With this video Mr Voris does not teach outside the teachings of the Church.

I do have a slight "issue", not with material but with delivery. At times seems too harsh or confrontational. So what he says needs to be said, but maybe in a gentler manner....Jury is still out on this one for me. Sometimes we all need some tough love in our lives.

Mark

Wowbagger Aug 29, '11 11:38 pm

Re: "New media" apologist: Michael Voris and "The Vortex" videos from RealCatholicTV.com (on YouTube, etc)
 
The post that kicked off this thread was mine. Didn't really mean to start a whole thread; I don't pay Mr. Voris all that much attention. Just wanted it out there that he's just one voice in a chorus of orthodoxy, and a pretty -- what's a good word here? -- distinctive one at that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samuel63 (Post 8303732)
Michael is now being attacked by people aligned with the liberal factions of the church. They are striking back.

I've never thought of Mark Shea as one of the soulless minions of Catholic liberalism. I hardly agree with everything Mark Shea says, but he's certainly as orthodox as you or me.

Nor am I under the impression that the Diocese of Scranton is particularly liberal, and I certainly can't say that World Youth Day is a bastion of liberal Catholicism.

Voris submits himself, as all good Catholics must, to the authority of the Magisterium and the teachings of the Church. That's amazingly rare these days, and he is to be applauded for it. I did not mean to suggest that he is some kind of insane fundamentalist Catholic or a sedevacantist or something. (But, then, what's the difference? ZING! :P)

But under the umbrella of the Magisterium, even given the beliefs we all share, there is a tremendous amount of room for competing interpretations of teaching and judgements about what good Catholics ought to do. This can't come as a surprise to anyone -- the activity level and disagreements within CAF Apologetics alone proves it! There are those of us who think Catholic teaching compels certain behaviours toward illegal immigrants, and those of us who think it compels precisely the opposite behaviour -- and there's no clear teaching to sort us out. There are those of us who think altar rails should be reinstalled in every church in the country tomorrow, and there are others who think modern nave-less church design was a Pretty Good Idea. (Hey, modern church design doesn't go against Church teaching, is all I'm saying. Doesn't mean the fact some people like it isn't a sure sign of insanity.)

Voris takes legitimate Catholic teaching and gives it a consistently hardline traditionalist interpretation, with a powerful sympathy for old ideas and an aversion to new ones that goes beyond rational argument or clear infallible authority. Sometimes -- like the rest of us -- he's dead wrong. Sometimes I quite like his conclusions. He rarely says anything that is flatly, absolutely false under Catholic teaching, and when he does it's clearly out of carelessness rather than dissension. And we've all done that: I recently caught myself spewing the monothelitist heresy by mistake. I'm not a big fan of Voris personally -- he sets my teeth on edge the same way Fr. Corapi used to -- but that's simply a matter of taste. Perhaps the biggest danger from Voris -- as with Corapi before him -- is that his viewers will take his very fallible interpretations of infallible teachings and treat those interpretations as infallible themselves. Frankly, I think he enjoys being so far outside the "mainstream," and likes the idea of drawing the Church in an even more traditionalist direction than most of today's faithful Catholics would think wise. I don't see many other ways of explaining his combative style or his general... well, smugness. That's why I wrote that "Being outside the mainstream is sort of the whole point of Michael Voris."

As long as we remember that he is just another voice in a very rich conversation, and that he is by no means a "mainstream" voice, even among faithful Catholics, Michael Voris and his message will have a role to play in the Church's continuing discovery of herself.

And now I've thought about Michael Voris more in the past ten minutes than I have my entire life to date.

Transformer Aug 30, '11 7:01 am

Re: "New media" apologist: Michael Voris and "The Vortex" videos from RealCatholicTV.com (on YouTube, etc)
 
We've been here before with Michael Voris. The bottom line is, being doctrinally orthodox isn't good enough. A public Catholic figure must also be consistently Charitable and must not hold positions that are downright appalling or totally nonsensical.

MarkBrown says that if you watch the entire Catholic Government video, then what Voris says is fine. So, according to Voris' defenders, the following quotes are totally acceptable?

"The whole idea of democracy is little less than an experiment doomed to failure from the outset.”

“The only way to run a country is by benevolent dictatorship, a Catholic monarch who protects his people from themselves.”

Seriously? If anyone but a loud-mouthed neocon Catholic apologist said those things, no one on these forums would bat an eye at calling them appalling and unreasonable. But because it's Voris speaking, these awful sentiments get a pass. I wonder what G. K. Chesterton would have to say about Voris' condemnation of democracy, Chesterton who argued persuasively that democracy and Tradition are unshakable allies?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The there's Voris on the topic on Protestants. Is he charitable? Does he speak of them respectfully as our brothers and sisters in Christ, and encourage others to appropriate the good things in their theology and practice, as an apologist like Jimmy Akin does? Well, let's look at some quotes.

“If you want to completely waste your time, try talking about faith with a committed Protestant.”
False Ecumenism 06-30

“Protestantism is founded on the un-intellectual. It is simply faith without reason. It is blind, ignorant faith. And we know what our Lord said about the blind: they fall into the pit.”
False Ecumenism 06-30

“[Protestantism is] a heresy that celebrates ignorance.”
False Ecumenism 06-30

“[American culture is] dominated by the heresy of individualism, which is the progeny of Martin Luther and his band of merry heretics.”
Amazing Grace

“Most Catholics in America dress like Protestants, … [and] reason, if you can call it that, like Protestants…”
Amazing Grace

Oh.

In past times I would have thought those quotes would speak for themselves, but after arguing with a few people who think them perfectly acceptable, I feel the need to spell it out. The above are cruel and mean and contrary to Christian charity. They stand in stark contrast with Vatican II's deecree on Ecumenism, which spoke of our Protestant brothers and sisters like this:

"The daily Christian life of these brethren is nourished by their faith in Christ and strengthened by the grace of Baptism and by hearing the word of God. This shows itself in their private prayer, their meditation on the Bible, in their Christian family life, and in the worship of a community gathered together to praise God. Moreover, their form of worship sometimes displays notable features of the liturgy which they shared with us of old.

Their faith in Christ bears fruit in praise and thanksgiving for the blessings received from the hands of God. Among them, too, is a strong sense of justice and a true charity toward their neighbor. This active faith has been responsible for many organizations for the relief of spiritual and material distress, the furtherance of the education of youth, the improvement of the social conditions of life, and the promotion of peace throughout the world."

And then, of course, there's Voris on the Jews:

“Once, however, the Romans were done with their work, the Jews as the religion of the Covenant no longer existed… [Rabbinical Judaism] is not the Judaism of the Covenant; it is a man-made religion.”
The Jews

Is it in fact even doctrinally orthodox, to argue that Judaism effectively no longer exists? Is it not now Catholic doctrine that the old covenant is still in force and that the Jews are still God's chosen people?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I could go on. I could point to what Voris says about global warming (“It’s clear that global warming is a scam aimed at eventual population control… it has everything to do with eugenics and government control." Lent & Lies). I could explain in excruciating detail how his attack on the hymn Amazing Grace is totally nonsensical. I could link to this 2-hour long video arguing that the ordinary form of the Mass is the result of freemasons trying to destroy the Church (yes, seriously). But I've rambled on long enough. It's time Catholics stopped defending Voris just because he's doctrinally orthodox and has biting social commentary and is a loud-mouthed neocon who attacks those "liberals" that so many on CAF despise. He's frequently uncharitable (no, not just blunt; uncharitable). He holds appalling positions on various issues. And no, the fact that Real Catholic TV also has some good catechetical material does not make the awful things Voris says any less awful.

And now that I've criticized Voris as well as I can, I'll mention one video of his that I really like: the video "Catholic & Homosexual." In stark contrast with Voris' other videos, it is charitable and downright pastoral. I honestly do recommend it.

Sirach2 Aug 30, '11 10:40 am

Re: "New media" apologist: Michael Voris and "The Vortex" videos from RealCatholicTV.com (on YouTube, etc)
 
Well said! :thumbsup::dancing:
About time people woke up and stop defending his scathing lack of charity and callous tactics of evangelization!



As for the 2-hour video, it was pulled from CAF previously for its extreme position degrading the ordinary form of mass and our clergy. What could he possibly hope to gain by this?
  • Rebellion by the faithful who have no ability to depose them?
  • Distrust of all clergy and witch hunts for abuses in the liturgy?
  • Diffusing the unity and charity we should have among fellow Catholics and other baptized christians?
  • Sickness of heart while listening to his diatribes against the Church?
  • Peace and inspiration, helping us to become more virtuous, closer to God? [never!]
The fruit of his 'evangelization' is clearly visible to any who have the gift of discernment. Where is the Spirit of the Lord in his words?

"Not by might, and not by power, but by my spirit," says the LORD of hosts.


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 6:54 pm.


Copyright © 2004-2013, Catholic Answers.