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-   -   If my marriage is not sacramental do I need an annulment? (http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=762693)

Consoler Mar 8, '13 10:17 pm

If my marriage is not sacramental do I need an annulment?
 
I'm a Catholic. My husband is non baptized. We were married in the Church. Do I still need an annulment? If I do, does it make a difference that it is only a natural marriage?

anjoh66 Mar 9, '13 1:03 am

Re: If my marriage is not sacramental do I need an annulment?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Consoler (Post 10460222)
I'm a Catholic. My husband is non baptized. We were married in the Church. Do I still need an annulment? If I do, does it make a difference that it is only a natural marriage?

My understanding about the nature of marriage is that if you were married in a catholic Church with a non baptized husband, you must have had a permission to do so, and then the marriage is a sacrament for you as a catholic, but not for the unbaptized husband.

What do you mean by, "it is only a natural marriage"?

Consoler Mar 9, '13 1:50 am

Re: If my marriage is not sacramental do I need an annulment?
 
"Marriage is a sacrament only between two baptized persons.
Therefore, the marriage is not sacramental. A marriage of this type is called a natural marriage." got this from another thread.

LilyM Mar 9, '13 2:17 am

Re: If my marriage is not sacramental do I need an annulment?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Consoler (Post 10460463)
"Marriage is a sacrament only between two baptized persons.
Therefore, the marriage is not sacramental. A marriage of this type is called a natural marriage." got this from another thread.

What document is this from?

The Church gave you a dispensation, presumably, to marry this man in the Church. The Church does not call upon God to bless non-sacramental unions AFAIK.

Regardless, the dispensation to marry, and the fact that you married in the Church, means that the union is very likely not invalid unless there was some impediment other than the mere fact that he was not baptised.

Consoler Mar 9, '13 2:19 am

Re: If my marriage is not sacramental do I need an annulment?
 
"A Catholic can marry an unbaptized person, but such marriages are natural marriages only; they are not sacramental marriages. The Church, therefore, discourages them and requires a Catholic who wishes to marry an unbaptized person to receive a special dispensation from his or her bishop. Still, if the dispensation is granted, a non-sacramental marriage is valid and can take place inside of a Catholic church."

http://catholicism.about.com/od/cath...Q_Marriage.htm

LilyM Mar 9, '13 2:23 am

Re: If my marriage is not sacramental do I need an annulment?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Consoler (Post 10460480)
"A Catholic can marry an unbaptized person, but such marriages are natural marriages only; they are not sacramental marriages. The Church, therefore, discourages them and requires a Catholic who wishes to marry an unbaptized person to receive a special dispensation from his or her bishop. Still, if the dispensation is granted, a non-sacramental marriage is valid and can take place inside of a Catholic church."

http://catholicism.about.com/od/cath...Q_Marriage.htm

Fairy nuff, not sacramental but valid, and therefore the mere fact that he is unbaptised is not grounds for an annulment.

Consoler Mar 9, '13 2:26 am

Re: If my marriage is not sacramental do I need an annulment?
 
That isn't the grounds. We were married in the church with the dispensation. We're getting divorced now and I was just wondering if anyone knew about annulments in this particular type of case.

LilyM Mar 9, '13 2:29 am

Re: If my marriage is not sacramental do I need an annulment?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Consoler (Post 10460492)
That isn't the grounds. We were married in the church with the dispensation. We're getting divorced now and I was just wondering if anyone knew about annulments in this particular type of case.

Were both of you free to marry (ie no previous spouses still living)?
Did both of you freely consent and mean to honour your vows and obligations when you took them?

Joe 5859 Mar 9, '13 5:17 am

Re: If my marriage is not sacramental do I need an annulment?
 
You need to talk to your priest. His not being baptized might change which process you have to go through, but you still have to go through a process to get it all sorted out.

Cathhsmom Mar 9, '13 5:19 am

Re: If my marriage is not sacramental do I need an annulment?
 
Check with your church about the annulment process. They would be the best source of info. I will pray for you both. I was the unbaptized spouse when my husband and I married. I was baptized 2 years later which is when our marriage became a sacramental marriage. I am sorry that your spouse still does not see the wonder and beauty of God.

TheWarriorMonk Mar 9, '13 5:24 am

Re: If my marriage is not sacramental do I need an annulment?
 
By "Church" I assume you mean "Catholic Church." If that's the case, your marriage is considered valid, and are not free to remarry. In order to remarry, an annulment will be required. Dissolution of the marriage under the Petrine Privilege is also a possibility, but this is much harder to obtain.

1ke Mar 9, '13 5:58 am

Re: If my marriage is not sacramental do I need an annulment?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Consoler (Post 10460222)
I'm a Catholic. My husband is non baptized. We were married in the Church. Do I still need an annulment? If I do, does it make a difference that it is only a natural marriage?

Yes you are validly married and therefore not free to marry anyone else.

You would require a decree of nullity to be free to marry. A natural marriage can be disssolved by the Petrine Privilege (i.e. by the Pope) in some cases, which would also make you free to marry.

Please go talk to your pastor. You are referring to him as your husband, which indicates you are still married. You have a duty to your marriage, so please focus on saving it.

1ke Mar 9, '13 5:59 am

Re: If my marriage is not sacramental do I need an annulment?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Consoler (Post 10460463)
"Marriage is a sacrament only between two baptized persons.
Therefore, the marriage is not sacramental. A marriage of this type is called a natural marriage." got this from another thread.

Correct. Your marriage is not a sacrament, it is a natural marriage.

But that makes it no less valid.

joanofarc2008 Mar 9, '13 6:20 am

Re: If my marriage is not sacramental do I need an annulment?
 
I am sorry for your pain. Yes you would need to go through the process all things being equal.

SerraSemper Mar 9, '13 8:32 pm

Re: If my marriage is not sacramental do I need an annulment?
 
I am sorry to hear you are having difficulties. The Catholic Church asks spouses to work things out if at all possible. Sometimes, though, it is unsafe or morally impossible to remain living together and the Church understands that. People normally petition for declarations of nullity for one of two reasons. They feel they need closure and want to know their status (single/married) in the Church but don't have a prospective spouse in mind. Or, they do want to immediately/eventually get married in the Church. So, the very first question I would have is why would you "need" a declaration of nullity? If your circumstances require separation (even a civil divorce), then you can always apply for permission to live separately from your bishop. If you believe your current status is single even though you are presumably married, then, yes, by all means petition for a hearing on your marriage after you get a civil divorce (talking USA here). Or, if you simply want closure after the divorce, again, you can file your petition at your Tribunal. 99.99% of the time, if you are challenging the validity of your bond of marriage to get a declaration of nullity (what is popularly known as an "annulment") after the wedding ceremony in the Church, you will need to go through what is called the formal process. As others have pointed out, since you are in a natural marriage, you "might" be able to get a Petrine Privilege but that is dependent upon several factors, including your being an innocent spouse. It usually takes as long to get a decision on the Petrine dissolution as it does for a formal trial of nullity. Hope that is helpful.

Consoler Mar 9, '13 9:07 pm

Re: If my marriage is not sacramental do I need an annulment?
 
Well, he basically defrauded me because he never had any intention of staying married to me for life. I know that for a fact. We were only married and living together for barely three months before he cheated on me and told me he wanted a divorce. I asked him repeatedly to work things out and he refused. He admitted that he was going to divorce me but that he just thought it wouldn't be so soon.
I was just hoping that since it is only a natural marriage that the process might be shorter or something.

Deltadeliquent May 7, '13 11:01 pm

Re: If my marriage is not sacramental do I need an annulment?
 
So if I married a non baptised person, and then got a dispensation for disparity of cult because I wanted to go back to the Church and take the sacraments,( assuming they allowed this...) if we later divorced, without a convalidation, would I be able to get an annullment?

JackieMom May 8, '13 2:41 am

Re: If my marriage is not sacramental do I need an annulment?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Deltadeliquent (Post 10719664)
So if I married a non baptised person, and then got a dispensation for disparity of cult because I wanted to go back to the Church and take the sacraments,( assuming they allowed this...) if we later divorced, without a convalidation, would I be able to get an annullment?

You'd have to get the dispensation prior to the marriage. If you attempted an invalid wedding, then you would either get a convalidation or a radical sanation so that you could return to accepting the Eucharist.

You could always petition for a decree of nullity, but there would need to be sufficient proof that the marriage was not valid in order for one to be granted.

1ke May 8, '13 5:33 am

Re: If my marriage is not sacramental do I need an annulment?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Deltadeliquent (Post 10719664)
So if I married a non baptised person, and then got a dispensation for disparity of cult because I wanted to go back to the Church and take the sacraments,( assuming they allowed this...) if we later divorced, without a convalidation, would I be able to get an annullment?

You are not understanding what a dispensation from disparity of cult is.

You are in an irregular marriage because of previous marriages. It is a different situation.

1ke May 8, '13 5:36 am

Re: If my marriage is not sacramental do I need an annulment?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Consoler (Post 10463948)
I was just hoping that since it is only a natural marriage that the process might be shorter or something.

go talk to your pastor.

Deltadeliquent May 8, '13 9:09 am

Re: If my marriage is not sacramental do I need an annulment?
 
Ok, I'm grasping at straws,I know. Thanks.

TheRealJuliane May 8, '13 11:59 am

Re: If my marriage is not sacramental do I need an annulment?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Deltadeliquent (Post 10721301)
Ok, I'm grasping at straws,I know. Thanks.

Go and see your pastor. Please.

:)

Razor May 12, '13 1:24 pm

Re: If my marriage is not sacramental do I need an annulment?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Consoler (Post 10460492)
That isn't the grounds. We were married in the church with the dispensation. We're getting divorced now and I was just wondering if anyone knew about annulments in this particular type of case.

Let's look at this from God's eyes instead of man's eyes . . .

Your first priority should be to SERIOUSLY attempt to convince your husband to be baptized--whether or not he has a desire to remain married. After all, you love him (even if you don't like him right now) and would surely not want to see him suffer eternity in hell! As Christians, we would not want that even for our worst enemy.

Then, save your marriage. I mean, make an HONEST attempt at saving your marriage!!! You can not force your husband to do anything but there are many things you can do to help him change his mind--assuming he is the one who wants the divorce. You don't want to be standing at the gates of heaven and be trying to convince St. Peter that you went to one marriage counseling session but the counselor was horrible so you just let your marriage go.

If you are the one that wants the divorce then you are in grave danger of losing your eternal soul (see CCC 2382-2386). In this case, my advice to you is to read everything you can get your hands on regarding the sanctifying grace of bearing the Cross of Christ with a sacrificial love for God and your husband.

If you are unable to save your marriage, and you believe you may have not contracted a valid marriage in the first place then go ahead and petition for annulment. You will not be able to marry in a Catholic church again unless you have your first "marriage" annulled.

If you are convinced that you have a valid marriage then even a Catholic tribunal does not have the power to nullify your marriage--so a petition for annulment is wasting the tribunal's time. "What God has joined together, let no man put asunder". In that case, you must make it clear to your spouse that you are ready to reconcile and will remain ready until the day one of you dies. Obviously, this means you are not allowed to remarry or "date" or become romantically involved. After all, you are still married in the eyes of God.

TheWarriorMonk May 12, '13 6:37 pm

Re: If my marriage is not sacramental do I need an annulment?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Razor (Post 10738813)
If you are unable to save your marriage, and you believe you may have not contracted a valid marriage in the first place then go ahead and petition for annulment. You will not be able to marry in a Catholic church again unless you have your first "marriage" annulled.

If you are convinced that you have a valid marriage then even a Catholic tribunal does not have the power to nullify your marriage--so a petition for annulment is wasting the tribunal's time. "What God has joined together, let no man put asunder". In that case, you must make it clear to your spouse that you are ready to reconcile and will remain ready until the day one of you dies. Obviously, this means you are not allowed to remarry or "date" or become romantically involved. After all, you are still married in the eyes of God.

This is not quite correct. The marriage is natural, not sacramental. Because the marriage is natural, an annulment might not be needed. A valid natural marriage has the potential of being dissolved by the Pope.

Razor May 12, '13 11:23 pm

Re: If my marriage is not sacramental do I need an annulment?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TheWarriorMonk (Post 10739727)
This is not quite correct. The marriage is natural, not sacramental. Because the marriage is natural, an annulment might not be needed. A valid natural marriage has the potential of being dissolved by the Pope.

Are you speaking of the "Petrine Privilege"? If so, I have heard of it but never attempted to research it. If what you say is true then I stand corrected.

With that said, common sense tells me that if Jesus says "What God has joined, let no man put asunder" then even the Pope does not have the power to "undo" a valid marriage. However, if the Magisterium has officially declared it then who am I to argue?

By chance, do you have a reference to an official doctrine of the church on this?

LilyM May 13, '13 12:44 am

Re: If my marriage is not sacramental do I need an annulment?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Razor (Post 10740546)
Are you speaking of the "Petrine Privilege"? If so, I have heard of it but never attempted to research it. If what you say is true then I stand corrected.

With that said, common sense tells me that if Jesus says "What God has joined, let no man put asunder" then even the Pope does not have the power to "undo" a valid marriage. However, if the Magisterium has officially declared it then who am I to argue?

By chance, do you have a reference to an official doctrine of the church on this?

But the Pailine and Petrine privileges are for cases where a marriage is natural rather than sacramental, and moreover where one party is not a believer. So not quite a case of 'God joining' if you catch my drift.

And the privilege is taken straight from scripture - 1 Corinthians 7:10-15 to be precise.

Deltadeliquent May 13, '13 8:28 am

Re: If my marriage is not sacramental do I need an annulment?
 
Is marriage would be valid, natural but not sacramental. And one party is not baptised.
My question is really asking if we get a dispensation to make the marriage valid, does this dispensation mean automatically it can't be annulled later.
Would the PetrinenPrivildge apply even though there is a dispensation involved? Assuming all other contortions of this privlidge were met.

1ke May 13, '13 8:49 am

Re: If my marriage is not sacramental do I need an annulment?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Deltadeliquent (Post 10741659)
My question is really asking if we get a dispensation to make the marriage valid,

A dispensation from disparity of cult will be part of your convalidation process once your spouse is found free to marry (your situation is not the same as he original poster on this thread, because your spouse has prior marriages). The dispensation does not itself make a marriage valid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deltadeliquent (Post 10741659)
does this dispensation mean automatically it can't be annulled later.

The convalidation of your marriage brings about a valid marriage. A decree of nullity is a finding of fact that a valid marriage did not occur. So, unless there were some evidence of an impediment or defect of consent at the time of the convalidation, then no the convalidated marriage would not be a candidate for a declaration of nullitty.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deltadeliquent (Post 10741659)
Would the PetrinenPrivildge apply even though there is a dispensation involved? Assuming all other contortions of this privlidge were met.

Maybe.

You are mixing up a number of things here. I suggest you talk to the vicar general in your diocese to answer your questions. You have very detailed questions that cannot be answered here adequately, plus this thread is on an entirely different situation from yours.

Deltadeliquent May 13, '13 8:55 am

Re: If my marriage is not sacramental do I need an annulment?
 
You are right! I thought I had started this thread...

Your second paragraph answered my question, though. Thanks.


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