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-   -   Evangelii gaudium (http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=840947)

Michael Mayo Nov 28, '13 5:49 am

Evangelii gaudium
 
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/fr...audium_en.html

This is already being discussed from an economic/political point of view but its real value is in the evangelical vitality we all need. How about we discuss that.

In the very first part we begin with the joy of evangelization. "6. There are Christians whose lives seem like Lent without Easter." That maybe me. A pretty strong statement but at times it can be easy to feel as though we have lost contact with he Lord and run on the dry fumes of faith. And in 13 "The joy of evangelizing always arises from grateful remembrance: it is a grace which we constantly need to implore." Thanksgiving is a good day for that. Grateful remembrance. Never forget the moment Jesus touched your heart.

christofirst Nov 28, '13 6:57 am

Re: Evangelii gaudium
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Mayo (Post 11444084)
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/fr...audium_en.html

This is already being discussed from an economic/political point of view but its real value is in the evangelical vitality we all need. How about we discuss that.

In the very first part we begin with the joy of evangelization. "6. There are Christians whose lives seem like Lent without Easter." That maybe me. A pretty strong statement but at times it can be easy to feel as though we have lost contact with he Lord and run on the dry fumes of faith. And in 13 "The joy of evangelizing always arises from grateful remembrance: it is a grace which we constantly need to implore." Thanksgiving is a good day for that. Grateful remembrance. Never forget the moment Jesus touched your heart.

Do you remember an actual moment when Jesus touched your heart? I ask because I cannot say I ever known any one such moment. For me, it seems like it has always been as it is. I was born into the Faith, raised in the Faith. I never had what I would consider a conversion experience, or a time when I could say with any certainty, "Jesus has touched my heart." I guess I see the relationship of faith as more of an ongoing embrace, or a continual calling, an invitation, a desire. My challenge, and where I continually fall short, is to stay mindful of that constant Presence. He is always present, but I am not always aware. Even the Eucharist for me is more of an act of faith, an act of communion, than an actual feeling that "Jesus has touched my heart." Maybe I'm missing something. Anyway, Thanksgiving Day is indeed another good opportunity to acknowledge and to be grateful. But I am still curious as to what you meant by, "Never forget the moment Jesus touched your heart," and how many people have had such a demonstrable or singular experience.

Michael Mayo Nov 28, '13 8:00 am

Re: Evangelii gaudium
 
That came from paragraph 13 "The apostles never forgot the moment when Jesus touched their hearts: “It was about four o’clock in the afternoon” (Jn 1:39). "

In my own life I do recll a time period when I felt more of the newness and that urge to share it. But then I did undergo a conversion in my early 20's even though I was baptized as an infant and went to Catholic elementary school. So, yes, there was a period rather than a single moment when I felt a powerful touch in my heart. All things seemed new and I ached to share that new life. Even though I am an introvert this joy enabled me to speak out in public. I became a religious brother and enjoyed preaching. And the evagelization the Pope is speaking about here includes that form but goes way beyond it to getting involved and supportive in peoples lives. (Chapter I, Section I, Par 24)

Rembering that early period of my life now.

christofirst Nov 28, '13 8:39 am

Re: Evangelii gaudium
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Mayo (Post 11444295)
That came from paragraph 13 "The apostles never forgot the moment when Jesus touched their hearts: “It was about four o’clock in the afternoon” (Jn 1:39). "

In my own life I do recll a time period when I felt more of the newness and that urge to share it. But then I did undergo a conversion in my early 20's even though I was baptized as an infant and went to Catholic elementary school. So, yes, there was a period rather than a single moment when I felt a powerful touch in my heart. All things seemed new and I ached to share that new life. Even though I am an introvert this joy enabled me to speak out in public. I became a religious brother and enjoyed preaching. And the evagelization the Pope is speaking about here includes that form but goes way beyond it to getting involved and supportive in peoples lives. (Chapter I, Section I, Par 24)

Rembering that early period of my life now.

That is wonderful, and thanks for sharing! I have also felt what I would call a religious fervor which has ebbed and flowed throughout my life. The time of youth is often a time of intense experience, no different for me. Thanks for reminding me, and happy Thanksgiving.

KrazyKat Nov 28, '13 9:06 am

Re: Evangelii gaudium
 
When Jesus touches your heart it is a moment you never forget. The love that you feel you will never feel from any other source. I was five years old and trying to figure out how to die when I was told that I was not alone and that He would be with me always. Remembering that moment is why I can say I know He is and fills me with sadness for those who do not believe in Him. For the grace of knowing I thank The Lord everyday.

Praise be to Thee Lord Jesus Christ.

Origen52 Nov 28, '13 10:14 am

Re: Evangelii gaudium
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by christofirst (Post 11444168)
Do you remember an actual moment when Jesus touched your heart? I ask because I cannot say I ever known any one such moment. For me, it seems like it has always been as it is. I was born into the Faith, raised in the Faith. I never had what I would consider a conversion experience, or a time when I could say with any certainty, "Jesus has touched my heart." I guess I see the relationship of faith as more of an ongoing embrace, or a continual calling, an invitation, a desire. My challenge, and where I continually fall short, is to stay mindful of that constant Presence. He is always present, but I am not always aware. Even the Eucharist for me is more of an act of faith, an act of communion, than an actual feeling that "Jesus has touched my heart." Maybe I'm missing something. Anyway, Thanksgiving Day is indeed another good opportunity to acknowledge and to be grateful. But I am still curious as to what you meant by, "Never forget the moment Jesus touched your heart," and how many people have had such a demonstrable or singular experience.


I think the problem with those of us who are older, and cradle Catholics, is that in many cases we were actively discouraged from questioning our faith. So we girded our loins and obeyed church teachings, not necessarily because we accepted them, but because we were told that is what we had to do. So we accepted the rituals and teachings of the church, but there was little emphasis on encountering Jesus.

I actually remember scoffing at Protestants for emphasizing a personal relationship with Jesus. When I heard things like, have you accepted The Lord as your saviour, my response was always I believe in the teachings of the church, of course I accepte the teachings of Jesus. Belief was presented to us as an act of will, not an emotional reaction.

Seeing belief as an act of will is a good thing, because it carries us through dry spells and moments of extreme doubt. But if we see faith only as an act of will, we miss a very important aspect of Christianity, a personal relationship with Jesus.

I was fortunate that during my university years I experienced a total collapse of faith. I found myself seeing nothingness, all the teachings and rituals of the church seemed empty and devoid of meaning. I was blessed to have encountered a very wise Basilian father during this period.

When I explained my collapse of faith, he reassured me that this was not a sin and that I was now an adult and could no longer base my faith on my childhood concepts. He told me my penance was to explore the teachings of Jesus by carefully reading the gospels. Then I was to examine the teachings of the church in the light of the gospels.

Reading the gospels lead me to a life changing experience with the transcendent. One day while riding the subway, reading a political science book, I was overwhelmed by an intense, overwhelming feeling of love and joy. I had two more stronger similar experiences, never during prayer, or in church, but in the most mundane places doing the most mundane things; washing dishes, getting ready fior school. These experiences became the backbone of my faith. I knew I had to be a Christian because the person I was encountering was Jesus. I then took several theology courses, exploring various Christian denominations. My conclusion was that despite its many human flaws, the teachings of the Catholic Church are most in keeping with Jesus' gospel message.

I have really never looked back. When I began to read the works of pope Benedict, I saw in his writings a clear, well formed expression of the faith I had stumbled upon. I have since found his writings a great source of strength. I have also found that what pope Francis is teaching is very much in agreement with the writings of Benedict.



The Holy Father (Benedict ) went on to apply St. Bernard's message to modern Christianity, stating that "faith is first and foremost an individual and intimate encounter with Jesus, it means experiencing His closeness, His friendship, His love. ...At times we think we can resolve the fundamental questions about God, mankind and the world using only the power of reason. St. Bernard however, solidly rooted in the Bible and the Fathers of the Church, reminds us that without a profound faith in God, nourished by prayer and contemplation, ... our reflections upon the divine mysteries risk becoming a vain intellectual exercise and lose their credibility."

http://www.examiner.com/article/pope...ter-with-jesus

TRH1292 Nov 28, '13 10:22 am

Re: Evangelii gaudium
 
This document is really incredible. It could be called "Guidelines on how to spread the Gospel 101". :thumbsup:

RPRPsych Nov 28, '13 10:23 am

Re: Evangelii gaudium
 
I think one of the hidden gems of this document is section 135-144, "The Homily". We often underestimate the power of a good homily in bringing us back to our senses, or make us reappraise our journey in faith. This should be required reading in all parishes and seminaries. :thumbsup:

(And if I hear one more sermon that is just inspirational stories, New Age, politics, "look, I can pronounce Antiochus Epiphanes" or "all faiths are equal", I'm gonna howl...)

RPRPsych Nov 28, '13 10:26 am

Re: Evangelii gaudium
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Origen52 (Post 11444549)
I think the problem with those of us who are older, and cradle Catholics, is that in many cases we were actively discouraged from questioning our faith. So we girded our loins and obeyed church teachings, not necessarily because we accepted them, but because we were told that is what we had to do. So we accepted the rituals and teachings of the church, but there was little emphasis on encountering Jesus.

I actually remember scoffing at Protestants for emphasizing a personal relationship with Jesus. When I heard things like, have you accepted The Lord as your saviour, my response was always I believe in the teachings of the church, of course I accepte the teachings of Jesus. Belief was presented to us as an act of will, not an emotional reaction.

Seeing belief as an act of will is a good thing, because it carries us through dry spells and moments of extreme doubt. But if we see faith only as an act of will, we miss a very important aspect of Christianity, a personal relationship with Jesus.

I was fortunate that during my university years I experienced a total collapse of faith. I found myself seeing nothingness, all the teachings and rituals of the church seemed empty and devoid of meaning. I was blessed to have encountered a very wise Basilian father during this period.

When I explained my collapse of faith, he reassured me that this was not a sin and that I was now an adult and could no longer base my faith on my childhood concepts. He told me my penance was to explore the teachings of Jesus by carefully reading the gospels. Then I was to examine the teachings of the church in the light of the gospels.

Reading the gospels lead me to a life changing experience with the transcendent. One day while riding the subway, reading a political science book, I was overwhelmed by an intense, overwhelming feeling of love and joy. I had two more stronger similar experiences, never during prayer, or in church, but in the most mundane places doing the most mundane things; washing dishes, getting ready fior school. These experiences became the backbone of my faith. I knew I had to be a Christian because the person I was encountering was Jesus. I then took several theology courses, exploring various Christian denominations. My conclusion was that despite its many human flaws, the teachings of the Catholic Church are most in keeping with Jesus' gospel message.

I have really never looked back. When I began to read the works of pope Benedict, I saw in his writings a clear, well formed expression of the faith I had stumbled upon. I have since found his writings a great source of strength. I have also found that what pope Francis is teaching is very much in agreement with the writings of Benedict.



The Holy Father (Benedict ) went on to apply St. Bernard's message to modern Christianity, stating that "faith is first and foremost an individual and intimate encounter with Jesus, it means experiencing His closeness, His friendship, His love. ...At times we think we can resolve the fundamental questions about God, mankind and the world using only the power of reason. St. Bernard however, solidly rooted in the Bible and the Fathers of the Church, reminds us that without a profound faith in God, nourished by prayer and contemplation, ... our reflections upon the divine mysteries risk becoming a vain intellectual exercise and lose their credibility."

http://www.examiner.com/article/pope...ter-with-jesus

:thumbsup:

This is a great story, thanks for sharing it with us. (Something similar happened to me, but it'd be a bit too tedious to narrate...) :D

Michael Mayo Nov 29, '13 6:51 am

Re: Evangelii gaudium
 
What did they do? The text is now Garamond 13 in PDF making it 224 pages. :mad:

To cut and past to Word and reduce the font size messes up all the numbers.

I'd rather buy the book than print it out:
http://www.usccbpublishing.org/produ....cfm?SKU=7-458

christofirst Nov 29, '13 9:49 am

Re: Evangelii gaudium
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Mayo (Post 11446629)
What did they do? The text is now Garamond 13 in PDF making it 224 pages. :mad:

To cut and past to Word and reduce the font size messes up all the numbers.

I'd rather buy the book than print it out:
http://www.usccbpublishing.org/produ....cfm?SKU=7-458

I agree. Thanks for the link. I already ordered Evangelii Gaudum from the USCCB website, but of course it is backordered. Ignatius Press will soon offer a hardcover version, probably more expensive too. Both will ship sometime in December. I see an interesting debate going on over the translation choice of words into English, and what the Pope actually means to say. Just when so many of us are feeling nice and comfy because our faith and our life choices do not appear to conflict in any way, a document like this comes along and shakes us up! God bless Pope Francis!

Michael Mayo Dec 1, '13 10:17 am

Re: Evangelii gaudium
 
It is not by proselytizing that the Church grows, but "by attraction" (Intro. III. 14)

That is something always to remember.

But, this wont set well with many:

I dream of a "missionary option", that is, a missionary impulse capable of transforming everything, so that the Church's customs, ways of doing things, times and schedules, language and structures can be suitably channeled for the evangelization of today's world rather than for her self-preservation. (1.II.27)

In her ongoing discernment, the Church can also come to see that certain customs not directly connected to the heart of the Gospel, even some which have deep historical roots, are no longer properly understood and appreciated. Some of these customs may be beautiful, but they no longer serve as means of communicating the Gospel. We should not be afraid to re-examine them. At the same time, the Church has rules or precepts which may have been quite effective in their time, but no longer have the same usefulness for directing and shaping people's lives. (1.IV.43)

Michael Mayo Dec 4, '13 6:29 am

Re: Evangelii gaudium
 
Well now is the Pope inventing terms or did I somehow miss these in the past: prometheanneopelagianism and anthropocentric immanentism?

93. Spiritual worldliness, which hides behind the appearance of piety and even love for the Church, consists in seeking not the Lord's glory but human glory and personal well-being.

It takes on many forms, depending on the kinds of persons and groups into which it seeps. Since it is based on carefully cultivated appearances, it is not always linked to outward sin; from without, everything appears as it should be. But if it were to seep into the Church, "it would be infinitely more disastrous than any other worldliness which is simply moral".

The other is the self-absorbed prometheanneopelagianism of those who ultimately trust only in their own powers and feel superior to others because they observe certain rules or remain intransigently faithful to a particular Catholic style from the past. A supposed soundness of doctrine or discipline leads instead to a narcissistic and authoritarian elitism, whereby instead of evangelizing, one analyzes and classifies others, and instead of opening the door to grace, one exhausts his or her energies in inspecting and verifying. In neither case is one really concerned about Jesus Christ or others. These are manifestations of an anthropocentric immanentism. It is impossible to think that a genuine evangelizing thrust could emerge from these adulterated forms of Christianity.

95. This insidious worldliness is evident in a number of attitudes which appear opposed, yet all have the same pretence of "taking over the space of the Church". In some people we see an ostentatious preoccupation for the liturgy, for doctrine and for the Church's prestige, but without any concern that the Gospel have a real impact on God's faithful people and the concrete needs of the present time. In this way, the life of the Church turns into a museum piece or something which is the property of a select few.

Michael Mayo Dec 4, '13 7:30 am

Re: Evangelii gaudium
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by christofirst (Post 11447041)
I agree. Thanks for the link. I already ordered Evangelii Gaudum from the USCCB website, but of course it is backordered.

And shippin of the little thing is almost as much as the document itself.

Subtotal: $13.95
Shipping: $13.38

Backorder Total (1 Items): $27.33

I would rather struggle with the PDF

christofirst Dec 4, '13 5:31 pm

Re: Evangelii gaudium
 
Shipping was only $6.00 for me. Maybe its a sinner's discount. ;)


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