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  #1  
Old Apr 11, '06, 10:42 am
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Default Karl Keating's E-Letter of April 11, 2006

Karl's E-Letter of April 11, 2006

Topics:

Our Father Who Art Holding Hands . . .
San Francisco City Council Goes Bonkers

==========
http://www.catholic.com/newsletters/kke_060411.asp
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  #2  
Old Apr 11, '06, 1:10 pm
plh plh is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of April 11, 2006

I sure hope you copied San Francisco City Council with your responses. "Common sense" is key - who do they think they are fooling?
  #3  
Old Apr 11, '06, 1:11 pm
crk312 crk312 is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of April 11, 2006

I enjoyed this comment regarding adoption. One of the underlying principles of Biology is a species must reproduce itself. Nature demands it and is set up as such. From strickly a secular point of view, if one accepts Darwin's theory of evolution, then what if anything does homosexuality contribute to the process. Nature has provided our means of reproduction, our social structure to protect its young and the safe guards of parenthood to raise children with a male and female acting as one to contribute to their psychological balance. As guardians of faith the Church is correct in preventing adoption by gay couples both from a Theological and Natural perspective.
  #4  
Old Apr 11, '06, 1:20 pm
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of April 11, 2006

I love to hold hands with my grand daughter, God children, daughter, mother-in-law, husband, son, daughter-in-law and sundry. I love to do it often.
But I would not miss it at all if we didn't do it during Mass. In fact I wish we were kneeling during the Our Father rather than standing. I wish we could kneel anytime we are praying during Mass instead of standing.
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  #5  
Old Apr 11, '06, 1:50 pm
uncleauberon uncleauberon is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of April 11, 2006

Quote:

If this is the real origin of the practice, it makes it doubly odd: first, because hand-holding intrudes a false air of chumminess into the Mass (and undercuts the immediately-following sign of peace),
Chumminess False ? Why False ?
If I don't know the parishioner or guest next to me - "by golly" I probably should. Or at least show a bit of "chumminess".

Quote:
and second, because modifications to liturgical rites ought to arise organically and not be borrowed from secular self-help groups.
Exactly what would be considered "organic?" Why not somthing that was first experienced in a secular setting ?

Many practices & traditions of the church came "organically" from secular practices.

Most of church music came this way. Much of our liturgy came from Jewish practices. The other rites of the church are different because they were organically so from the secular/previously non-Catholic worship practices of those areas.

Hand holding is a perfect example of "organic". It is not enforced rubric from above. I have not heard in many many years any priest or lector ask for the congregation to hold hands. I have seen it in the past 20 years practiced as a spontaneaous gesture an a parish by parish , pew by pew, practice.

My family likes it. We do it at home, and we have done it at Mass for many years. It is natural to us to reach out when we pray. What's not organic about that ?

We don't force the guy next to us to do it - nor do we request the Pastor to mandate it as an official practice.

If this "organic" gesture seems to work culturally for us why wouldn't it be included in future rubrics ?

Change is slow - but not stagnant.
  #6  
Old Apr 11, '06, 2:00 pm
Grandsmoor Grandsmoor is offline
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Red face Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of April 11, 2006

Very Good Karl!
I just want to say that I was relieved that the Cardinal, Archbishop, and Catholic Charities all acted in accordance with the Vatican in this matter of homosexual adoptions. It did my heart good to see this sign of unity in the Church. It is heartbreaking to hear of members of the organizational Church speaking against the Vatican. I was almost expecting to hear that when I began reading your letter. So it is a nice suprise.

You make this comment in your letter:
-"modifications to liturgical rites ought to arise organically and not be borrowed from secular self-help groups."
I just wanted to say a word in defense of modifications coming from secular sources. Historically, the Church has borrowed from secularity in modifications of its liturgy. When the Church moved from Israel to Rome she borrowed from Roman secular life in forming portions of her liturgy. I just thought your statement was too general.

Next, I just want to mention that simply being male or female does not qualify one to be a spouse or a parent. There are instances when living with one's biological parents are worse for a child than living with two practicing homosexuals acting as one's parents. I do not condone homosexual behavior. I do not think we should place children with homosexuals. However some heterosexual parents severely harm their children.
This is all in response to this statement:
--"No, they are not. Heterosexual couples have a distinct advantage: One of them is a man, and the other is a woman; one of them is the father, and the other is the mother."

Further you make this comment in your text:
-"Cardinal Levada is a decidedly unqualified representative of his former home city and of the people of San Francisco and the values they hold dear. If so, then this is the highest commendation yet given to the new Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith."
There are people in San Francisco who are represented by the Cardinal. Some citizens of San Francisco think the Cardinal does represent their values. To lump, San Francisco and all her people together, and then call commendable what is not: of San Francisco, her people, and the values of her people is to reject those who are innocent of putting homosexual familes on an equal footing with heterosexual ones. Not all San Franciscans think homosexuality is fine. Your portrayal of San Francisco is unfair to those who believe otherwise. There are many of them as well.
Peace and All Good Things,
Grandsmoor
  #7  
Old Apr 11, '06, 2:06 pm
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Cool Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of April 11, 2006

Quote:
"Cardinal Levada is a decidedly unqualified representative of his former home city and of the people of San Francisco and the values they hold dear."
Fortunately for all concerned, Cardinal Levada is not in a position as "representative of his former home city and of the people of San Francisco" -- He is in his position as Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith!

(What bonehead on the council thought he was chosen to represent SF!?)

tee
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  #8  
Old Apr 11, '06, 2:06 pm
genealogist genealogist is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of April 11, 2006

In addition to traditions being limited to 100 years after the originator died, let's not call any theology professor a theologian until at least 100 years after he dies. Foe eg. Pope Benedict is not a theologian vecause he is alive. John Calvin while wrong on a lot of things has writings that are still discussed today 500 years later. Words mean things. A PhD in theology does not make one a theologian.
  #9  
Old Apr 11, '06, 3:21 pm
Crumpy Crumpy is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of April 11, 2006

I don't like the hand-hold at the Lord's prayer. I barely tolerate the hand shaking, because I believe it is phoney, excessive, and, oh yes, un hygienic.

Our parish foregoes many real opportunities for fellowship as it is, without injecting phoney ones and unhygienic ones into the Mass. I think a smile, nod, and greeting are just fine, without the physical contact. You know what happens in church, there is not just handshaking, but hugging and downright prolonged embracing (with or without swaying).

I think Karl's off-base when he says that the Mass is not a social event. Of course, it's not a party. The quintessential and defining sign of our unity is the Eucharist.

And, the proof of our commitment and participation with our brothers and sisters is not a superficial "here's yours" handshake in church, it's what we do to those others for the other 167 hours in the week.
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  #10  
Old Apr 12, '06, 12:55 pm
Maureen Fiore Maureen Fiore is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of April 11, 2006

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crumpy
I don't like the hand-hold at the Lord's prayer. I barely tolerate the hand shaking, because I believe it is phoney, excessive, and, oh yes, un hygienic.
I don't like holding hand either and I don't do it. I do shake hand during the sign of peace because you are pretty much stuck. If you don't shake the person's hand next to you, you are frowned upon. I feel that it is a joke because as soon as you walk out of the church these same people would not even give you the time of day.

I enjoyed your E-Letter Karl, well done!
  #11  
Old Apr 11, '06, 3:23 pm
jminiw jminiw is offline
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Smile Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of April 11, 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forum Admin
Karl's E-Letter of April 11, 2006

Topics:

Our Father Who Art Holding Hands . . .
San Francisco City Council Goes Bonkers

==========
http://www.catholic.com/newsletters/kke_060411.asp
Wow! Am I ever happy to see you finally got through to my in-box! Been waiting for your letter to show up here for the past three months. And what a topic. Yea! for you Karl. I hope the Catholic Charities and Cardinal Levada And the Prefect of the Congregation for the doctrine of the Faith stay in tune with that foreign country - The Vatican. Wish that all of our spokespersons were as well tuned ! Thanks !
  #12  
Old Apr 11, '06, 4:21 pm
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of April 11, 2006

Quote:

Still, I suppose some women may think that doing without make-up is asking too much even for Lent
Oh my! This is a tough one but I've lived through it and can talk about it.

I was a combination Clinique, Estee Lauder & Avon woman. Very consciously and slowly I have stripped all the layers, shades, tints and concealers away from my face. The last item I gave up was my dark eye circle concealer . For the most part I now go without makeup all of the time. You all might think this is crazy but I feel more myself when I go to confession or receive Holy Communion with a bare face.....just me......no more mask. Giving up my makeup mask was like giving up my facade or thing I hide behind. I have a greater appreciation for both men and women with bare skinned faces who are not afraid to be themselves.
Sometimes vanity creeps in and I will grab my sunglasses to hide behind but for the most part I am a changed woman.

There......I hope I haven't bore anyone to sleep
  #13  
Old Apr 11, '06, 4:57 pm
BillyHW BillyHW is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of April 11, 2006

Chumminess False ? Why False ?
If I don't know the parishioner or guest next to me - "by golly" I probably should. Or at least show a bit of "chumminess".


How exactly does holding hands help you to know someone?

How does shaking hands and saying "peace" help you to know someone?

It doesn't help at all. And it's fake. And I'd rather not have to be fake in front of the Lord.
  #14  
Old Apr 11, '06, 7:56 pm
qmvsimp qmvsimp is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of April 11, 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyHW
How exactly does holding hands help you to know someone?

How does shaking hands and saying "peace" help you to know someone?

It doesn't help at all. And it's fake. And I'd rather not have to be fake in front of the Lord.
Have you been to a political rally before? How about a pro-life march?

I have, and I see the same fellowshipping as I see at mass. We're all there for a common purpose. We can share politics, life and worship together. We don't have to have long two-way conversations in order to get to know somebody. We already know a part of them by our shared beliefs/values.

If you go to mass at the same church and same time, do you notice the same people there? Do you ever smile at them and say hello? I've seen people outside of mass that I recognize throughout the year. We immediately shake hands and ask how we're doing. We do not treat each other as strangers.

I can accept that worshipping at mass doesn't give you a sense of getting to know someone. But please accept that for many, if not most of us, it does. I can assure you from personal experience, it is not fake for us. I'm very sorry that it is for you.
  #15  
Old Apr 11, '06, 5:07 pm
Cathy Cathy is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of April 11, 2006

Regarding adoptions by homosexual "couples," there is an editorial in the April 9-15,2006 National Catholic Register:

The media has trumpeted several studies that purport to show that adoption by same-sex couples doesn't adversely affect children. But Dr. Rick Fitzgibbons of the Catholic Medical Association said that, when studies are done properly, with control groups, the data show overwhelmingly that homosexual adoption is a bad idea.
"In effect," he said, "the social science research supports the recent statement of the Vatican that to deliberately deprive a child of a father or a mother through adoption by those in the homosexual lifestyle would inflict severe harm onto those children."
... It's hard to argue against homosexual adoption. We don't want to feel mean and moralistic. We want to feel tolerant, magnanimous and modern. We'd rather only look at the positive cases, ignore the rest and put a smiley face on the homosexual subculture.
The only problem: This strategy leaves all the pain to the kids.



There's also a good article on the truth about homosexuality, and hope for help, at the Catholic Medical Association web page:
http://www.cathmed.org/publications/homosexuality.html
 

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