So, What If the TLM Were Allowed in Vernacular?

Rabbititus · #1 Jul 31, '07, 10:25 pm

I think that eventually (perhaps not in our lifetime), parts of the TLM, like the propers or more, will be allowed in the vernacular. If so, what type of English would you wish to be used for official use?

For those of you who genuinely feel the TLM will never be allowed in vernacular, keep in mind that this is a hypothetical question.

JKirkLVNV · #2 Jul 31, '07, 10:29 pm

I'd like the whole of the Tridentine in the vernacular (the Suscipe, Domine, is a far more beautiful offertory prayer for example, than "Blessed are you, Lord God.....).

The type of English? I should think a "higher English," with "thee," and "thine," etc.

This is actually what I think will happen, though I really like the austerity of the Pauline Rite.

Ghosty · #3 Jul 31, '07, 10:34 pm

Mmmm, a "mildly archaic" vernacular Tridentine Mass.....*swoons*

Throw in the "dialogue" form and you have my Liturgical dream come true!

Peace and God bless!

Catholig · #4 Jul 31, '07, 10:37 pm

If this happens we'll have:

Tridentine Mass in Latin
Tridentine Mass in Vernacular
Novus Ordo in Latin
Novus Ordo in Vernacular

This seems too varied for me...

Catholig

Ghosty · #5 Jul 31, '07, 10:40 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catholig

If this happens we'll have:

Tridentine Mass in Latin
Tridentine Mass in Vernacular
Novus Ordo in Latin
Novus Ordo in Vernacular

This seems too varied for me...

Catholig

Nah, we're talking about the eventual organic evolution of the Liturgy. The Tridentine Liturgy should NOT be fossilized! It's not a relic that must be preserved, it's a living thing that must be tended to keep it healthy. Onward with the INTENDED adjustments of Vatican II!

Peace and God bless!

Catholig · #6 Jul 31, '07, 10:44 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghosty

Nah, we're talking about the eventual organic evolution of the Liturgy. The Tridentine Liturgy should NOT be fossilized! It's not a relic that must be preserved, it's a living thing that must be tended to keep it healthy. Onward with the INTENDED adjustments of Vatican II!

Peace and God bless!

I'm not talking about "fossilizing" the Tridentine Mass - I think that we should update the calendar - and that if we wanted to add more readings here or there (while not abolishing the old cycle). The only vernacular I feel needs to be in the TLM is the gospel and epistle - and the homily in which they will be read.

Catholig

KathleenElsie · #7 Aug 1, '07, 4:35 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catholig

If this happens we'll have:

Tridentine Mass in Latin One so far in our area. Still hopeful
Tridentine Mass in Vernacular Please no just another way to end the TLM
Novus Ordo in Latin None offered in our area, Nada
Novus Ordo in Vernacular All local masses use this indult

This seems too varied for me...

Catholig

Rabbititus · #8 Jul 31, '07, 10:39 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JKirkLVNV

I'd like the whole of the Tridentine in the vernacular (the Suscipe, Domine, is a far more beautiful offertory prayer for example, than "Blessed are you, Lord God.....).

The type of English? I should think a "higher English," with "thee," and "thine," etc.

This is actually what I think will happen, though I really like the austerity of the Pauline Rite.

Ah, I should have thought of the term "higher English," that's basically what I meant when I said "mildly archaic." For instance, I consider the popular vernacular versons of the common Catholic prayers (Our Father, Hail Holy Queen, Hail Mary, Glory Be, etc) to be in this style - the English is updated, but they retain archaic elements that are still easily understood.

Oh, and I like the old offertory prayer a lot better too. Generally, I like a lot of the tridentine versions of the prayers better, like the old Confiteor and the prayer after the Our Father, with their litanies of glorious saint names.

Catholig · #9 Jul 31, '07, 10:41 pm

I seriously dislike the Idea of the Tridentine Mass in English. It is no longer the same - and besides that it may lessen the use and following of the Traditional LATIN Mass (in Latin).

Catholig

otjm · #10 Jul 31, '07, 10:42 pm

It would seem to be heading that way already, if Article 6 is read to mean that the readings will be read once, not once in Latin and a second time in the vernacular.

Catholig · #11 Jul 31, '07, 10:45 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by otjm

It would seem to be heading that way already, if Article 6 is read to mean that the readings will be read once, not once in Latin and a second time in the vernacular.

It says that the priest "can". Meaning that the priest can also "not". I hope to mention this to my local priest that is learning to say the TLM.

Catholig

Rabbititus · #12 Jul 31, '07, 10:47 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by otjm

It would seem to be heading that way already, if Article 6 is read to mean that the readings will be read once, not once in Latin and a second time in the vernacular.

That's part of the reason I decided to post this. I really think now that the old mass is a mainstream legitimate part of the Church's living liturgical tradition, that it will evolve. One of the things that will surely happen is the introduction of more vernacular, for good or ill. I really do think there will be some new options (like more vernacular and new propers and saint feasts). I don't think such changes will be mandates, however.

Oh, and I should have put this in my original post: pretend that any vernacular translations, regardless of style, would be as accurate as possible - no 1970 ICEL style.

otjm · #13 Jul 31, '07, 11:09 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rabbititus

That's part of the reason I decided to post this. I really think now that the old mass is a mainstream legitimate part of the Church's living liturgical tradition, that it will evolve. One of the things that will surely happen is the introduction of more vernacular, for good or ill. I really do think there will be some new options (like more vernacular and new propers and saint feasts). I don't think such changes will be mandates, however.

Oh, and I should have put this in my original post: pretend that any vernacular translations, regardless of style, would be as accurate as possible - no 1970 ICEL style.

And I would guess that the second thing that might be changed would be to increase the readings to include the Old Testament and Psalm, and to move to the three year cycle. I would not, however, expect it soon; there is already enough bad blood over the fact that many bishops have not implemented the 1962 Missal as requested by JP 2.

Holy Roller · #14 Aug 1, '07, 12:03 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by otjm

And I would guess that the second thing that might be changed would be to increase the readings to include the Old Testament and Psalm, and to move to the three year cycle. I would not, however, expect it soon; there is already enough bad blood over the fact that many bishops have not implemented the 1962 Missal as requested by JP 2.

Yes, more Bible, and more believing the Bible literally. Most Catholics who I know seem to regard the Bible as an encounter that is best kept private.

Richard

KathleenElsie · #15 Aug 1, '07, 4:43 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Holy Roller

Yes, more Bible, and more believing the Bible literally. Most Catholics who I know seem to regard the Bible as an encounter that is best kept private.

Richard

No disrespect meant here. But, please let the Catholics decide this. Also as a Catholic I have heard much more actual scripture in a Catholic Mass then in the Protestant service. The Cathoic Church is just that CATHOLIC.