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  #1  
Old Dec 4, '07, 2:58 pm
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Default Karl Keating's E-Letter of December 4, 2007

Karl's E-Letter of December 4, 2007

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Trust But Verify

==========
http://www.catholic.com/newsletters/kke_071204.asp
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  #2  
Old Dec 4, '07, 6:16 pm
Marnica01 Marnica01 is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of December 4, 2007

After reading Karl's critique of the De Rynck's book "How to Read a Painting", I went to Amazon.com to check the reviews. There are only 5 so far: four reviewers gave 5 stars and one gave 4 stars. All five rave about the book, saying things like the book "revealed information I would have never known". Apparently, the reviewers are even less informed about the Christian faith than Dr Rynck!
  #3  
Old Dec 4, '07, 7:21 pm
Marianne Ph Marianne Ph is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of December 4, 2007

Although I am not familiar with the book or it's author, "How to Read a Painting," I was horrified to think that such a book is circulating. Amazon shows it was published in 2004 so it has been around awhile and is available in paperback as well. It's been a long time since I sat in a college art history class but I now wonder if I slept through some similar mis-information. I'm going to look at my old textbooks and through my art library. Is Karl Keating an artist, or did he just happen to randomly pick up this book? I hope he will make a comment on Amazon so people will be aware.
  #4  
Old Dec 5, '07, 2:28 pm
Karl Keating Karl Keating is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of December 4, 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marianne Ph View Post
Is Karl Keating an artist, or did he just happen to randomly pick up this book?
I haven't been an artist since a painting of mine was shown at the Los Angeles County Fair. The painting was of Leonardo da Vinci and his proto-helicopter. ...


I was in the sixth grade at the time.


The book wasn't picked up at random. It's part of my remote preparation for next year's Rendezvous in Florence.
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  #5  
Old Dec 5, '07, 3:25 pm
Kristopher Kristopher is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of December 4, 2007

“ … a spondee is a foot of two short syllables, when it really is a foot of two long syllables. … a sonnet consists of fourteen lines, with an octet of eight lines (divided into two quatrains) followed by a sestet of six lines. … Albrecht Durer's "Four Apostles," De Rynck notes, correctly, that the painting is mistitled since one of the figures is the Evangelist Mark, … To understand those paintings, you need to understand the religion out of which they grew and which they try to illustrate. De Rynck just doesn't have that understanding. … “

I’m not concerned about Karl’s lack of knowledge concerning both sonnets, and definitions of literary terms; additionally, I take no real issue with Karl’s broader point, that the viewer of an artist’s work must “ … understand the religion out of which they grew … “, but I am concerned that certain errors might spread from his own.

A spondee is a term not for meter, but for combinations, or the lack of them of syllables either accented, or unaccented. A spondee is one or more syllables, given an accent. If there is one syllable accented, and that one syllable for whatever reason is counted as a foot, then it is monometer, or one foot; additionally, there may be a series of eight syllables, all accented, which would make for a spondee consisiting of eight feet, or of four feet, or of two feet, and one "broken" foot, which would be somewhat similar to an Alexandrine, within a sonnet, one line containing maybe twelve syllables, instead of the standard ten.

A sonnet is fourteen lines; though, there are at least three varieties of sonnets: Shakespearean, Miltonic, and Petrarchan, and there is a Spenserian sonnet as well. The Petrarchan sonnet, I believe, is as Karl stated: an octet and a sestet. The Spenserian sonnet is three quatrains, and one heroic couplet; this is fundamental to a variety of sonnets: Shakespearean, Miltonic, etc. The Petrarchan sonnet has been recognized to some extent as an Italian sonnet: the octet is composed of two quatrains, and the sestet is composed of two tercets. The rhyme schemes vary throughout these forms. You can look this up through Wikipedia, and or a dictionary of literary terms; I use one by Beckson and Ganz. I believe Larry is the first name of Beckson.

So far as Albrecht Durer is concerned: his faith was what the Catholic Church would call heretical; he was a Protestant. Albrecht Durer said of Martin Luther: ‘’that Christian man who has helped me out of great anxieties'', from the following URL:

http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/durer/

The point of the artwork focused around the period of time not only of the Italian Renaissance, and the German Renaissance, and the Elizabethan Renaissance—these all reflect a transformation among Christians, both clergy and parishoners alike—namely: a transformation of literacy. Art served the function of educating even the clergy, many of whom were illiterate, though well-to-do, both of the New Testatment, and of the old. As populations became more literate, not necessarily as a consequence of Guttenberg’s printing press, but as a consequence of theses posted on a university's door, in the vernacular—art became more oriented toward literate people and therefore, it became more classical: more for those who had more money to pay for it. Yes, classical may involve the use of elements such as simplicity, and proportion, and the like, but these are characteristics provided to those who pay; much like stale bread is provided to the hungry and good nutritious bread is provided to the wealthy, to keep them healthy, etc.
  #6  
Old Dec 6, '07, 9:46 pm
Karl Keating Karl Keating is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of December 4, 2007

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Originally Posted by Kristopher View Post

I’m not concerned about Karl’s lack of knowledge concerning both sonnets, and definitions of literary terms; additionally, I take no real issue with Karl’s broader point, that the viewer of an artist’s work must “ … understand the religion out of which they grew … “, but I am concerned that certain errors might spread from his own.
I happen to be correct--because there are multiple ways to explain what iambs and spondees and such are. Compare the varying explanations in John Ciardi, E.O. Parrott, Paul Fussell, Babette Deutsch, and even Webster's, which says, for example, that a spondee is "a metrical foot consisting of two long or stressed syllables."

The Petrarchan sonnet (also called the Italian) is the one most commonly used. From it derived the variants used notably by Spenser and Shakespeare. (A peculiarly English form developed because English is weak in rhymes--thus three quatrains followed by a couplet, a form that allowed a poet to use more rhymes than did the Italian form.) There even are 15-line poems and unrhymed poems that legitimately are called sonnets. All that's true--but quite irrelevant to the point I was making.
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  #7  
Old Dec 18, '07, 6:41 pm
Kristopher Kristopher is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of December 4, 2007

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Originally Posted by Karl Keating View Post
I happen to be correct--because there are multiple ways to explain what iambs and spondees and such are. ...
Then your criticisim of the author of the book you read was what--relevant to his point, or irrelevant to his point?

Seems art work, especially where it concerns not only the arts, but the sciences as well, must be interpreted in accord with those who controlled the elements contained within works of art: Galileo goes to prison; Michelangelo must paint the Sistine Chapel as a sculptor; all artists may use only red, blue, and paint wealthy fat women in the nude, especially the Medicies, while Machiavelli lies dormant in their prison, and all music must be written in triple meter, and duple meter is heresy--and who determined that poetry must rhyme?

You may say, it is in light of the Real Presence, that such works must be interpreted, but in light of Albrecht Durer--it is the oppressive characteristics of Catholicism to his time, that must be at least a partial basis for interpreting his works, and the influence of Martin Luther, an influence only slanderously, and libelously acknowledged by many Catholics even to this day; it seems to me.

So what exactly is your point: terminology is loosely defined as a consequence of usage, or must be strictly adhered to as a consequence of usage?
  #8  
Old Dec 5, '07, 8:29 pm
aimee aimee is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of December 4, 2007

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Originally Posted by Karl Keating View Post
I haven't been an artist since a painting of mine was shown at the Los Angeles County Fair. The painting was of Leonardo da Vinci and his proto-helicopter. ...


I was in the sixth grade at the time.


The book wasn't picked up at random. It's part of my remote preparation for next year's Rendezvous in Florence.

I thought you were taking your wife to France
  #9  
Old Dec 5, '07, 10:44 pm
Petergee Petergee is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of December 4, 2007

Yes, it's bad enough when newspapers print elementary howlers about Catholic beliefs, even written by their resident supposed "religion expert" or even "Catholic expert", but it's much more awful when it appears in a beautifully presented hard-cover book.
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Old Dec 6, '07, 9:14 am
qmvsimp qmvsimp is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of December 4, 2007

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Originally Posted by aimee View Post
I thought you were taking your wife to France
LOL
  #11  
Old Dec 6, '07, 10:45 am
Agellius Agellius is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of December 4, 2007

This made me think of an example of the same thing but in a different field. See this link:

http://wdtprs.com/blog/2007/11/drill...um-pontificum/

The guy who wrote this book, which gets some of the provisions of Summorum Pontificum flat wrong -- for example, he says that the Traditional Latin Mass was *abrogated* when the new mass was introduced, whereas S.P. says specifically that it was *never* abrogated -- has apparently been assigned to write the introduction to the Vatican printing office's new version of the 1962 missal. He clearly has no love for the TLM and either was careless or deliberately inaccurate when writing the pamphlet discussed in the link. Couldn't they have chosen someone who both knows what he's talking about and also has respect for the subject he's writing about?
  #12  
Old Dec 6, '07, 9:30 pm
Karl Keating Karl Keating is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of December 4, 2007

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Originally Posted by aimee View Post
I thought you were taking your wife to France
Naw, the next country over. She wants to see Spain. I'm giving her the Jack Benny answer ... which is explained through one of his skits:

Benny played a miser. He kept his loot in dungeon-like place, where there was a giant safe. One day, as he's working the combination lock, a thief appears. (You know he's a thief because he's wearing a Lone Ranger-style black mask.) Pointing a gun, he says to Benny: "Your money or your life!"

Benny just stares at him, wide-eyed.

"Your money or your life!" repeats the thief, waving the gun.

Benny continues to stare.

"Didn't you hear me, I said your money or your life!"

Benny answers slowly, a bit exasperated: "I'm thinking, I'm thinking."

And that's what I'm saying to my wife when she asks about Spain.
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  #13  
Old Dec 4, '07, 7:44 pm
Joe Kelley Joe Kelley is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of December 4, 2007

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Originally Posted by Marnica01 View Post
. . . saying things like the book "revealed information I would have never known". Apparently, the reviewers are even less informed about the Christian faith than Dr Rynck!
It appears to reveal information that no one ever knew.
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  #14  
Old Dec 5, '07, 7:59 am
Carlos Perez Carlos Perez is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of December 4, 2007

In regards to De Rynck's comments on the Trinity, I always fall back on one basic fact. God is the Alpha and the Omega, therefore he is not subjected to Time. Things that may appear to us mortals in a timely fashion, as a specific time when something in history occurs, does not do so with God. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have always been around since the beginning, because God is eternal.
Thanks,
Carlos
  #15  
Old Dec 5, '07, 12:10 pm
Crumpy Crumpy is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of December 4, 2007

Karl's article about the painting book reminds me of an article ("England") from the 1907 Catholic Encyclopedia that I was reviewing.

The article hits the nail on the head, this way:

Perhaps the most important in its ultimate consequences of all Wyclif's tenets was the supreme importance which he attributed to Holy Scripture. In his treatise "De Veritate Sacrae Scripturae", written about 1378, he practically adopts the position that Scripture is the sole rule of faith. It followed in his idea that the word of God ought to become accessible to all, and that all men were free to interpret it for themselves

Well, Wyclif didn't see it exactly that way. He was a pretty virulent anti-Catholic, and one must quickly realize that he didn't mean it quite that way, of course. Anybody was supposed to pick up scripture and interpret any way he wanted, except Catholics, of course. That's what Wyclif really meant!

And, of course, another bit of irony in that quotation is that Wyclif couldn't have attached so much importance to scripture, if anybody could interpret it any way they wanted.
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