Karl Keating's E-Letter of April 22, 2008

**Forum Admin** · #1 Apr 22, '08, 2:10 pm

Karl's E-Letter of April 22, 2008

Topics:

CHURCH ETIQUETTE
DIOCESES RANKED ON SEMINARIANS
A BOOK COMPARING HOLY WAR AND JUST WAR
UPDATE ON REGISTRATIONS FOR OUR CRUISES

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http://www.catholic.com/newsletters/kke_080422.asp

BarbG · #2 Apr 22, '08, 2:38 pm

I was particularly interested in the part of Karl's e-letter about appropriate dress for Church. I am an "old" cradle Catholic and try to go to Mass every day. I NEVER wear jeans or keds -- try to "dress" up a bit but not too fancy. I think we were "trained" to feel that Church and particularly, Mass, is a special place and we should dress for it -- anyone got other ideas?? Would love to hear them.

Fidelis · #3 Apr 22, '08, 3:41 pm

I never stooped to wearing beachwear to Mass, but neither did I dress my absolute nicest. In my own parish, the majority of folks dress like they are going fishing or to the beach right after Mass. In the summer it's gets downright scandalous with exposed hairy legs,cleavage and butt-cracks galore.

I also live where there are lots of Mormons (on the way to Mass I have to drive past no less than four LDS churches) and have also noticed that the men wear shirt and ties and the women dress nicely. This is the case even for many of their kids and in the triple digit summers we have in this area.

This last observation actually shamed me into reconsidering my own dress code. I now wear a shirt and tie to Mass. I figure if the Mormons and JW's can stand it, so can I. This isn't because I agree on anything else they do, but on the contrary it's because if I beleive that Christ is truly present in the Eucharist, and I think through the implications of that belief, I should be giving him my very best. Like the the saying goes, "Are you willing to do for the truth what other groups will do for a lie?"

I have no patience with the whiny retort "Well, God doesn't really care how we dress, ya know-- it's what's in your heart that counts." I think if we truly love God, we'll give him our best.

I have no quarrel with how Don the Beachcomber dresses for Mass. If those are truly the best clothes he has, then God bless him. If he doesn't pass judgement on me and my necktie, I won't pass judgement on him and his flip-flops.

Georgia · #4 Apr 22, '08, 6:18 pm

Behavior for Mass, along with the tasteless dress, seems to slipping to the lowest common denominator. It has been headed that way for some time, particularly in the more populated areas. I have no idea why unless it is the overall dropping of public standards or maybe because priests hesitate to say anything.

I was sitting in a church in the Northeast when I saw one that was for the books. The gifts were on a small table in the middle aisle, a table that was removed once the gifts were presented to the priest. A man went up to move the table and was wearing a tee shirt that advertised a nightclub's afternoon entertainment of scantily clad dancers.

In my home area, I see loads of people who have no idea how Mass begins because they have never been there for the procession. You could set your watch by some who routinely come in a minimum of ten minutes late, but they do make up for it by leaving ten minutes early.

You would see less skin at the well known restaurant chain that you often see at church. Parents let girls go in with the bare midriff blouses, hip hugger jeans or skirts and who knows what else. The boys often dress as if they have come to do the yard work. Both groups manage to show their underwear when they kneel.

I see a significant percentage of adults who carry on conversations before the Mass, during the Mass, especially while songs are being sung, and who smack gum the whole time.

Many times I wonder about the long term effects. These people would never dress the way, show up late and leave early, talk when silence is required, or exhibit other bad behaviors if they were meeting the their mayors. Our Lord and his Mass should hit the top of the scale, but it seems they don't.

People seem to forget they are teaching the next generation that Mass is not at all important, but other things are and those rank higher. I suspect that the higher standards for services may be an attraction to some who end up leaving the Church.

bcuster · #5 Apr 22, '08, 6:53 pm

I confess I had to use the dictionary to look up "décolletage." I definitely agree with Karl.

I also confess that I have not dressed with as much forethought as I should. Capri's in summer are as short as I go.

We have a seminary in our state: Mt. Angel, I hear the number of seminarians is up. We also have a House of the Holy Spirit Seminarians from Mexico. Is that cheating?

leonie · #6 Apr 22, '08, 7:16 pm

I have to say that I'm kind of ticked off by Karl's homeschooler mom quip. If he knew half the things we hs moms have to do, he' be amazed that we manage to brush our hair every day.

Besides, isn't it kind of unchivalrous for a man to criticise on a woman's attire on the basis of being unfashionable.

It makes me want to run out and buy a jumper to wear.

Why was it even necessary to put that comment in there?

**pnewton** · #7 Apr 22, '08, 7:29 pm

I had to use a dicitonary, too. I don't feel to bad. I make it a point to ignore womens' clothing terms. Women have too many names for the clothing. I am a shirt and tie guy at Mass. In the summer I will go to a short sleeve shirt and tie, though. The only time I have ever gone sloppy is while traveling and the Mass times did not allow time to change. I do not use travel as excuse, but if the choice is to drop in as is or miss Mass, I will go inside as I am.

Supermom · #8 Apr 22, '08, 9:36 pm

Dear Mr. Keating,

I would be interested in more info on the book on Islam that you mentioned (before I go out and purchase it). You said that the author feels that most folks don't understand Islam and what we must do about it. Is the author of the same opinion as Dr Peter Kreeft that Islam is OK because Moslems worship the same God that we do?

We live in a military community. While it is very un-PC to talk publicly about Islam, I can pretty much say that most of us are not of Oprah's and the President's feelings that Islam is a religion of peace.

I feel conflicted about this in a religious sense. We pray for their conversion. But politically and socially, we feel that while most Moslems are like lapsed Catholics and don't practice their faith, there are elements that are extremely dangerous within the Islamic faith on a theological level.

I have done much reading on this and most folks don't understand Moslem theology (if that is what you call it with them). It is deeply concerning that we are pursuing a political/social/cultural and military policy without the vast majority of Americans understanding the issues and merely getting their news from the main stream media.

So, I would appreciate more info on the book, please.

4bagger · #9 Apr 22, '08, 10:16 pm

I am so glad to see Karl address this topic. I usually go shirt and tie, sometimes coat and tie in winter.

Need some help -- one day during my one hour shift at the perpetual adoration chapel I was studying the Catechism and came across a reference to how one should dress for church. It was very brief, but very pointed and direct. Basically, one should dress to show respect and reverence... after all, JESUS is going to be there!

My problem is this: I have tried to find that reference again in the CCC, but to no avail. Anybody familiar with it or skilled enough to unearth it?

Thanks.

Wallaby · #10 Apr 23, '08, 4:41 am

Karl,

I thought the crack at home schoolers was a low shot. As a home schooling family we have always dressed sharp and modestly. We maintain a high standard regardless of the weather. Why pick on home schoolers who are clearly dressing modestly which is more important than mere appearance. Home schoolers get enough undeserved bad press without being attacked from a Catholic source.

I was very disappointed in this illogical and fatuous comment. You know how to hurt, Karl.

**pnewton** · #11 Apr 23, '08, 6:50 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wallaby

I was very disappointed in this illogical and fatuous comment. You know how to hurt, Karl.

Uh oh! This is the second person offended by the home-schooling remark. Karl is going have to send himself to sensitivity training.

jj2011 · #12 Apr 23, '08, 7:08 am

Perhaps I should give up on trying to convert Karl Keating to the ranks of us extreme traditionalists, but here goes. The vocations crisis cannot be solved without the return of the traditional mass or at least a credible vernacular liturgy (which we could have had with a balanced implementation of Sacrosanctum Concilium.

leonie · #13 Apr 23, '08, 9:27 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by pnewton

Uh oh! This is the second person offended by the home-schooling remark. Karl is going have to send himself to sensitivity training.

I can design a curriculum for it, if you want.

surfinpure · #14 Apr 23, '08, 12:02 pm

It was good to see the reminders on proper attire at Mass. Here on the Gulf Coast we see many, many offenses. I've often wondered why our pastor, a very conservative and orthodox priest, has never said anything in his homliy or posted anything in the bulletin about standards of modesty and decency. Lately I've seen some pre-teens in mini-skirts that would make a sailor blush, and I wonder why nobody in a position of authority approaches the parents about not letting their girls dress in such an undignified and disrespectful way. I know Father is aware of the problem, but I suppose he has his reasons for leaving it alone for now. So we'll just continue to try to set the best example we can for the moment.

On the topic of personal comfort: I often wear a sleeveless dress (or one that might be cut lower than is appropriate for Mass) on the way to church and cover it with a cardigan or shawl or jacket when we get out of the car to go inside. Since the church is kept quite cool, it is not uncomfortable, and I can take the covering off when I get back into the car. Summer heat problem solved.

**JimG** · #15 Apr 23, '08, 5:12 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by surfinpure

It was good to see the reminders on proper attire at Mass. Here on the Gulf Coast we see many, many offenses. I've often wondered why our pastor, a very conservative and orthodox priest, has never said anything in his homliy or posted anything in the bulletin about standards of modesty and decency.

Probably because when priests attempt to comment about people's clothing, especially women's clothing, it usually turns out to be a losing proposition, and stirs up more controversy than it settles.