World Youth Day & Islam

drbible1611 · #1 Jul 18, '08, 12:03 am

On Thursday 17th July on George Street in downtown Sydney I observed thousands of Muslim tracts discarded by WYD pilgrims as they headed towards the harbour foreshore to see pope Benedict XVIIth.

Are international Roman Catholic Youth unawares of the teachings of their own faith?

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." (CCC)

Seems very uncatholic to me!

dolphinlove · #2 Jul 18, '08, 12:11 am

What would you expect them to do? read them??
We are not interested in Islam, we are Catholics.

drbible1611 · #3 Jul 18, '08, 12:28 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by dolphinlove

What would you expect them to do? read them??
We are not interested in Islam, we are Catholics.

But they are part of the plan of salvation and WORSHIP the SAME GOD according to the Church.

Surely, the Christian thing to do would be to accept the tract, read it, file it in your personal copy of the catechism and wish them 'Peace be with you'

Just saw on our local TV the pope dialoging with an Imam-seemed all very friendly and ecumenical. How come the youth are not following the pope's example?

GemmaRose · #4 Jul 18, '08, 12:43 am

They could very well have accepted the tract and wished "Peace be with you." Maybe they just didn't feel the need to read anything about a false religion inspired by the devil, and treated the tract and its message the same way they would have treated any other garbage.

As to Islam being part of the plan of salvation, I'll let God take care of that.

drbible1611 · #5 Jul 19, '08, 5:11 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by GemmaRose

They could very well have accepted the tract and wished "Peace be with you." Maybe they just didn't feel the need to read anything about a false religion inspired by the devil, and treated the tract and its message the same way they would have treated any other garbage.

As to Islam being part of the plan of salvation, I'll let God take care of that.

So you are going against the OFFICIAL teachings of your own Church?

I thought to be a good Catholic you MUST believe and adhere to ALL her teachings not just pick and chose?

iaskquestions · #6 Jul 19, '08, 1:02 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by drbible1611

But they are part of the plan of salvation and WORSHIP the SAME GOD according to the Church.

No. They are not "part of the plan of salvation" in the sense that they have something to "contribute" to our salvation. They don't have anything to contribute to our salvation.

What the CCC says is that "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways" (839)

The church says that "The plan of salvation (God's plan, revealed in its fullness to the church, and not to Muslims) also includes....Muslims" (841)

And the Church does not say that they worship the "same" God as you have put it, but that "together with us they adore the one, merciful God". Obviously they do not know that God is a trinity. So although they worship one God, the Creator, whom we also worship, they do not know so much about him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by drbible1611

Surely, the Christian thing to do would be to accept the tract, read it, file it in your personal copy of the catechism and wish them 'Peace be with you'

On what basis are you saying such a thing? How can we put the false doctrines of the Muslims in the Catechism?

drbible1611 · #7 Jul 19, '08, 5:18 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by iaskquestions

No. They are not "part of the plan of salvation" in the sense that they have something to "contribute" to our salvation. They don't have anything to contribute to our salvation.

What the CCC says is that "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways" (839)

The church says that "The plan of salvation (God's plan, revealed in its fullness to the church, and not to Muslims) also includes....Muslims" (841)

And the Church does not say that they worship the "same" God as you have put it, but that "together with us they adore the one, merciful God". Obviously they do not know that God is a trinity. So although they worship one God, the Creator, whom we also worship, they do not know so much about him.

On what basis are you saying such a thing? How can we put the false doctrines of the Muslims in the Catechism?

What's the difference between worship and adoration?

Didn't John Paul II KISS the 'holy' KORAN? What was he saying by that gesture?

iaskquestions · #8 Jul 20, '08, 11:59 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by drbible1611

What's the difference between worship and adoration?

Didn't John Paul II KISS the 'holy' KORAN? What was he saying by that gesture?

Although I don't know what John Paul did exactly, he certainly didn't do it ex-Cathedra! He was not giving an infallible teaching. All Popes have been sinners! So if he has done (what you said he did) and he meant to adore it by that gesture then it is a sin.

Eden · #9 Jul 20, '08, 12:16 pm

Pope John Paul II also frequently kissed the ground:

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/image...03bodapjpg.jpg

Is that worship and adoration, too, dribble1611?

peary · #10 Jul 20, '08, 12:28 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by iaskquestions

Although I don't know what John Paul did exactly, he certainly didn't do it ex-Cathedra! He was not giving an infallible teaching. All Popes have been sinners! So if he has done (what you said he did) and he meant to adore it by that gesture then it is a sin.

There is some argument about whether or not JP2 'kissed' the Koran. The picture shown is the Bible, printed in Arabic, and used by the Assyrian Catholic Church in Iraq. The individual next to him is not a Muslim but a patriarch. But even so, even if it was the Koran, he wasn't speaking in the direct context of Faith or morals. In fact, if you know anything about him, he lived his Faith in suffering and in Truth. And I don't think that, in that case, he committed any sin, unless you feel that respect is a sin when it comes to Muslims. Maybe we should kiss the bible more often?

iaskquestions · #11 Jul 20, '08, 1:38 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by peary

There is some argument about whether or not JP2 'kissed' the Koran. The picture shown is the Bible, printed in Arabic, and used by the Assyrian Catholic Church in Iraq. The individual next to him is not a Muslim but a patriarch. But even so, even if it was the Koran, he wasn't speaking in the direct context of Faith or morals. In fact, if you know anything about him, he lived his Faith in suffering and in Truth. And I don't think that, in that case, he committed any sin, unless you feel that respect is a sin when it comes to Muslims. Maybe we should kiss the bible more often?

And who the hell is dribble to judge the pope (or any person for that matter)?

iaskquestions · #12 Jul 19, '08, 1:06 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by drbible1611

Just saw on our local TV the pope dialoging with an Imam-seemed all very friendly and ecumenical. How come the youth are not following the pope's example?

The gospel is to be proclaimed in love and not with hatred. Are those Muslims acting in love when they are distributing such blasphemous tracts?

drbible1611 · #13 Jul 19, '08, 5:22 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by iaskquestions

The gospel is to be proclaimed in love and not with hatred. Are those Muslims acting in love when they are distributing such blasphemous tracts?

I agree those tracts are blasphemous but not according to your Church, otherwise Vatican II and the CCC would clearly have stated that Islam is of the Devil and that Allah is NOT the God of the Bible-but it doesn't state that does it?

Why????????

Navarricano · #14 Jul 19, '08, 5:57 pm

Quote:

#841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims.

The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator ...

must be read in light of ...

Quote:

#839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."

... which, as the footnotes indicate, is from Lumen Gentium.

It's simple. They have not yet received the Gospel, but God's plan of salvation includes them. The Gospel must be preached to them, but the incomplete truth that they have in their doctrine, i.e., the oneness and unity of God, that He is eternal, that he is the Creator of all things and Judge of all men and women, puts them in a more favorable position and closer contact with the fullness of truth than a polytheist or an animist, who misunderstand entirely the nature of God. They are thus in a better position to recognize the Truth when confronted with it, because they've already got a head start in some very important, fundamental truths about God.

God foresaw the rise of Islam and permitted it. Nothing which happens is outside His will, so logically, His plan for our salvation includes the existence of Islam.

Quote:

#841 ... the Muslims ... profess to hold the faith of Abraham

They profess to; it does not say that they do.

Quote:

#841 ... and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day.

Muslims believe that God is one. They are correct. They believe that He is merciful. They are correct. They believe that He will judge all mankind on the last day. They are correct.

In this they are "with us," far more so than a polytheist who believes that there are many gods, or a pantheist who believes that all living things are divine because they participate in the divine nature. Or a Buddhist who does not believe in the judgement of God and believes that bliss is the elimination of the self and the desires of the will (or conscious action).

peary · #15 Jul 19, '08, 7:08 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by drbible1611

I agree those tracts are blasphemous but not according to your Church, otherwise Vatican II and the CCC would clearly have stated that Islam is of the Devil and that Allah is NOT the God of the Bible-but it doesn't state that does it?

Why????????

Otherwise Vatican II and the CCC would clearly have stated that Judaism is of the Devil and that Yahweh is not the God of the Bible - but it doesn't state that.

Why????????