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  #1  
Old Jul 28, '08, 7:21 am
BRB BRB is offline
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Default The Commandments should not be followed ... Part 2

Round 1 went well. MD and Sandusky scored some initial points. But, Guano and Pax had some key rebutals. Tef also filled in admirably for the Catholic tagteam.

Several major questions posed are yet unanswered. Either here ... or in separate threads they could be addressed.

Salvation assurance, meaning of Prodigal son parable, etc, etc.

I've some historical perspective on the initial thread question ... based on understanding/teachings of Church Fathers, and as further developed by Scott Hahn.

Hahn, being a Protestant convert to Catholicism, has definitively answered this question. Also, FCEGM here on CAF never weighted in on this question of Guanophores. W/O hearing from FCEGM ... I don't think the fat lady has yet sung.
  #2  
Old Jul 28, '08, 7:46 pm
Tim in MI Tim in MI is offline
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Default Re: The Commandments should not be followed ... Part 2

I also followed the other thread, but didn't participate.

I think I understand their stance (without necessarily agreeing) on following commandments, and specifically Love, but I'd like to know what role Hope plays in the Non-C's approach (if any - speaking of those who were participating in the other thread). If I understand the approach outlined in the previous thread, once one expresses (or insert appropriate verb here) saving faith, it seems he/she could live their life to the end, with certain knowledge that salvation is achieved. I wouldn't think there is anything to "hope" for, since salvation is already achieved. I suppose one could hope for faith so that they could then be saved, but that doesn't make sense to me. I placed a definition below for reference - note highlighted section - the theology previously presented seems to reflect presumption.

I will no longer hope for the Tigers to win the 2008 World Series, once they actually win it. (That is the essence of Hope, especially this year!)

Hope is one of three things that remain after everything else passes away. In a nutshell: What, if anything, can or should a Christian Hope for, if not heaven itself?

Quote:
Hope - One of the three theological virtues infused into the soul together with sanctifying grace and having God as its primary object. It makes us desire eternal life or the possession of God and gives us the confidence of receiving the grace necessary to arrive at this possession. The grounds of our hope are: the omnipotence of God, or the fact that He can give us eternal life and the means to attain it; His goodness, or the fact that He wills to give us eternal life and the means to attain it; and His fidelity to His promises, or the fact that He has pledged Himself to give us eternal life and the means thereto. Since the virtue of hope is based on God's power, goodness, and fidelity to His promises, it must be sure and unshakable in the sense that God will certainly offer us the means necessary for the attainment of eternal life and that if we employ our free-will to cooperate with the grace of God we shall certainly be saved. Hence, we alone can make hope void by our willful refusal to work with the proffered grace of God. Hope is necessary to salvation. The virtue of hope infused into the soul at Baptism is sufficient for those who have not attained the use of reason; in all others an act of hope is required, such at least as is included in living a Christian life. The sins against hope are: despair or willful diffidence about obtaining heaven and the means necessary thereto, since this implies mistrust of God's power or goodness or fidelity to His promises; and presumption or the unreasonable confidence of obtaining eternal salvation without taking the necessary means.

Source: New Catholic Dictionary
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  #3  
Old Jul 28, '08, 10:54 pm
Philthy Philthy is offline
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Default Re: The Commandments should not be followed ... Part 2

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Originally Posted by BRB View Post
Round 1 went well. MD and Sandusky scored some initial points. But, Guano and Pax had some key rebutals. Tef also filled in admirably for the Catholic tagteam.

Several major questions posed are yet unanswered. Either here ... or in separate threads they could be addressed...
I think round 1 was interesting. I will say that there are several points which remain unanswered - not because they are difficult, but because those answering them prefer to alter the topic to make a point that they wish to make, rather than simply answering the question. That would seem to be the case with the very simple question, "Should the 10 Commandments be followed by Christians?"
Is there really someone who claims to be Christian who would say that the Commandments should not be followed? No. Basically they all think they should be followed, but for different reasons. Catholics and non-OSAS Protestants believe that our behavior can influence our continued participation in eternal life, while OSAS Protestants believe that although our behavior doesnt influence our salvation, it does affect our rewards in eternal life.
So it would seem that we should all be in agreement that the Commandments should be followed. While at the same time disagree on why they should be. I'm not sure we even got that far in the last thread. Too much baggage, agendas and hostility.
One of the areas never covered in any detail was the notion of rewards in Heaven. It was proposed by the OSAS team that our salvation is not jeopardized through disobedience to the 10C's, just our heavenly reward. So what I'd like to know from these folks is:
Will we be perfectly happy with a salvation that is devoid of any rewards?
If claiming our salvation isnt jeopardized but that our rewards are - and that compromise turns out to be a very serious, consequential and eternal one - then what is the point of making the distinction? Why not simply affirm the importance of obedience to the 10C's?
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  #4  
Old Jul 29, '08, 4:59 am
CentralFLJames CentralFLJames is offline
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Default Re: The Commandments should not be followed ... Part 2

Will we be perfectly happy with a salvation that is devoid of any rewards?

This is a self contradictory question, is improperly formed and can be dismissed immediately. Salvation itself is a reward. Being the least in heaven is infinitely superior to being the least in hell (polarity and magnitude taken from the respective context of good and evil ). Further more, in heaven there is no sorrow or unhappiness. We might as well ask by analogy is a person with an IQ of 120 less happy than a person with an IQ of 140? Rewards in heaven relate to our heightened spiritual capacity in the direction of knowing God like God knows himself. It is impossible for a created human soul to ever fully know God as He knows himself since the Divine Godhead is Divine, infinite and is not constrained by the finite limits of a created soul. Our souls have real capacities and they simply can not contain God's infinite grace - it would be akin to putting billions and billions of oceans of grace into the space of a thimble. Absurd. The thimble would explode. But certainly if one on earth availed themselves of all God's grace while alive the soul might expand and grow its capacity to contain the grace of a small lake. But even the least soul in heaven would appear as angelic, god-like and unimaginably beautiful to any of us here on hearth.

I get the impression that some Christians are underachievers who are just hoping to finish the race at the wire and just crawl and limp their way into heaven's foyer. Pity since the more honor and beautiful our crown and robes the more joy and glory it brings our heavenly family. In any case - always a happy reunion.

James
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  #5  
Old Jul 31, '08, 9:28 am
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Default Re: The Commandments should not be followed ... Part 2

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[b] Salvation itself is a reward.James
True ... but, I don't think its the rewards that Christ and Paul talk of. Clearly the Bible teaches we can merit certain rewards. On the other hand, salvation would seem to be 'identical' for each Christian, and not based in any way on fruitful works.

Salvation gift ... on faith alone, maintained til end of life [step 1]
Rewards ..... merited on basis of fruitful works [step 2]

Both the above can be forfeited ... if we become apostates.
Adoption into God's family is for eternity ... unless we desire a divorce. God hates divorce ... but, will cut off our branch from tree of life if we INSIST or Persist in Disbelief.
  #6  
Old Jul 31, '08, 10:24 am
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Default Re: The Commandments should not be followed ... Part 2

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True ... but, I don't think its the rewards that Christ and Paul talk of. Clearly the Bible teaches we can merit certain rewards. On the other hand, salvation would seem to be 'identical' for each Christian, and not based in any way on fruitful works.

Salvation gift ... on faith alone, maintained til end of life [step 1]
Yes! Salvation is a gift, gifted by God on the basis of faith in Christ alone. The believer is then sealed in Him by the Holy Spirit of promise (Eph. 1:13). And the saved and sealed are given this exhortation regarding the One who now indwells him:
Eph 4:30 "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."
Quote:
Rewards ..... merited on basis of fruitful works [step 2]
Absolutely (1 Cor. 3:10--15)! According to divine revelation salvation is never rewarded, being gifted upon faith in Christ alone. But works are due a wage, and thus "rewarded." Therefore, at the judgment seat of Christ it is the value of the believer's WORKS that are revealed (figuratively) by "fire," not the believer himself. Christ took his judgment in his stead on Golgotha (Jn. 19:17).
Quote:
Both the above can be forfeited ... if we become apostates.
Adoption into God's family is for eternity ... unless we desire a divorce. God hates divorce ... but, will cut off our branch from tree of life if we INSIST or Persist in Disbelief.
Apostasy is rooted in unbelief, never in belief. It begins with the introduction of "leaven" (Gal. 5:9) which progressively spreads and permeates until a false gospel is developed: An "apostate gospel," which in turn can only produce apostates. All rooted in unbelief.
  #7  
Old Jul 31, '08, 10:51 am
Catholic Dude Catholic Dude is offline
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Default Re: The Commandments should not be followed ... Part 2

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Originally Posted by moondweller View Post
Yes! Salvation is a gift, gifted by God on the basis of faith in Christ alone. The believer is then sealed in Him by the Holy Spirit of promise (Eph. 1:13). And the saved and sealed are given this exhortation regarding the One who now indwells him:
Eph 4:30 "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."
The given Spirit is a "deposit" which will be redeemed at the end. It does not mean that the deposit cannot be abused and lost. The 4:30 passage you quote WARNS AGAINST "grieving the Holy Spirit" (cf 1 Th 5:19 "do not put out the Spirit's fire")

Quote:
Absolutely (1 Cor. 3:10--15)! According to divine revelation salvation is never rewarded, being gifted upon faith in Christ alone. But works are due a wage, and thus "rewarded." Therefore, at the judgment seat of Christ it is the value of the believer's WORKS that are revealed (figuratively) by "fire," not the believer himself. Christ took his judgment in his stead on Golgotha (Jn. 19:17).
Places like Gal 6:7-9 plainly put eternal life in the rewards column as do places like Mt 19:29.

Quote:
Apostasy is rooted in unbelief, never in belief. It begins with the introduction of "leaven" (Gal. 5:9) which progressively spreads and permeates until a false gospel is developed: An "apostate gospel," which in turn can only produce apostates. All rooted in unbelief.
Yes, and thus a person can fall away by turning to a life of sin rather than persevering in keeping the commandments.
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Old Jul 31, '08, 1:51 pm
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Default Re: The Commandments should not be followed ... Part 2

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Originally Posted by moondweller View Post
Yes! Salvation is a gift, gifted by God on the basis of faith in Christ alone. The believer is then sealed in Him by the Holy Spirit of promise (Eph. 1:13). And the saved and sealed are given this exhortation regarding the One who now indwells him:
Eph 4:30 "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."
Absolutely (1 Cor. 3:10--15)! According to divine revelation salvation is never rewarded, being gifted upon faith in Christ alone. But works are due a wage, and thus "rewarded." Therefore, at the judgment seat of Christ it is the value of the believer's WORKS that are revealed (figuratively) by "fire," not the believer himself. Christ took his judgment in his stead on Golgotha (Jn. 19:17).Apostasy is rooted in unbelief, never in belief. It begins with the introduction of "leaven" (Gal. 5:9) which progressively spreads and permeates until a false gospel is developed: An "apostate gospel," which in turn can only produce apostates. All rooted in unbelief.
Moondweller is back .... At the top of his game, with conviction as in days of old.

Sandusky also being moved to lead off inning # 2 ... against the CAF regulars.

Calling Tef, Guano, Pax, etc. Ready for another 1000 ?

Just don't call FCEGM in as your ACE !!! That guy is incredible and has resources at his disposal that few can match.
  #9  
Old Jul 31, '08, 2:00 pm
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Default Re: The Commandments should not be followed ... Part 2

The Ten Commandments

The Law was given to us to teach us as to what sin is. It also showed us how to eat with cleanliness and the living plan of Salvation. Without the Law we wouldn’t know what to avoid and what to embrace.

People wonder if we should follow the Big Ten or not..It is a constant debate among even the highest of Scholars. I don’t see the need for Argument. For me I always stick to the Script. If in that you cant find the answer then don’t go elsewhere but up to our Almighty Father in Heaven, with the question(s).
In Hebrews our Lord Jesus Christ writes For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.

Because finding fault with them, He says: “I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

IT start with us the Gentiles first NOW, Its in our Hearts and Now has been brought even to another level from a physical to a Spiritual Level. Only to those that understand this message is it given. All who read this and take HEART, Have NO FEAR and Have the willingness to be righteous will take heed.

In the old testament,

1 “You shall have no other gods before Me.

This is obvious in its intent. However on a spiritual level, how often in the day do you do things and forget to involve both the Thought of Our Lord and seek his advice. Do we keep our minds consistently and always on the Kingdom to Come? No. For me anyway its impossible. I’ve tried it so many times and there always seem to be moments that steal away my attention. This by no means give me excuse, fight the good fight.

Philip 3:19 “whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things”. So ALWAYS THINK ON OUR FATHER IN THE HEAVEN.

2 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.

This isn’t at all the first commandment. This along with so many other scriptures is telling us DON’T EVEN THINK or Try to IMAGINE what the FATHER LOOKS LIKE. Don’t take anything into worship with. Don’t bow down and even kneel before anything that looks like something we may think is in The Heaven. The Father wants us to see only that which is most pure, the HOLY SPIRIT OF TRUTH. THAT’S IT ! We should never use statues, monuments or even crosses to kneel to or use to pray with.

Spiritually speaking we also should not try to see his face or picture who he is but pray and worship him in complete truth.

3 “You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

On a spiritual level this includes unjustified anger toward anything or anyone as in most cases anger comes from pride. Pride, no matter how used or seen is an anti Christ spirit.

4 “ Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God.

The Everlasting Father Our Lord and Christ say’s Rest in me. It’s here spiritually speaking that we find our Rest in him. We no longer have to worry or be concerned with things of the future or now. All things are taken care of and if we have practiced faith in him, we have complete peace and rest from all our worries.

5 “ Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the LORD your God is giving you.

This is also a physical Obvious statement and still holds true. But now it must be in our hearts and should see our physical parents with a position of Honor, Even though in some cases its undeserved. That’s not our concern. Our concern is only how we behave.

Spiritually speaking we now have a new father and mother. The father is our Lord Jesus Christ, and our mother is the New Jerusalem as set forth in Revelations. We will be the Citizens of the Union of Christ and this New City.

6 “You shall not murder.

Obvious Statement. However Spiritually Speaking how many of us have wished death for people who probably deserve it but its not up to us to even wish death.

7 “You shall not commit adultery.

The spiritual Level on this is as stated by Jesus himself, “But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” Matt 5:28.

8 “You shall not steal.

This falls in line with the previous one in that if you Covet then you have stolen Spiritually.

9 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

Spiritually do not devise any way or any complaints that would cause harm to someone unjustified.

10 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”

This Ten Commandment tops the list in that it explains what the Father is saying all along. THE MIND. GOVERN and GUARD your mind. Use the relationship with him and the Holy Spirit to constantly re-new your mind. Eph 4:23 “and be renewed in the spirit of your mind.”

2Cor 11:3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

In short YES YOU FOLLOW these commandments because its in Our HEARTS !! We are to be soldiers in Christ and march as such carrying No Fears ! Why because we know as our Father he loves us and allows us to make mistakes, but with that comes the responsibility of Being sound mind and sound body Christians. No get out there and March on !! Thats what Im going to do. May all our hearts be STRONG FAST and full of Righteous Courage !!

Jaime
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Old Jul 31, '08, 3:36 pm
ryanoneil ryanoneil is offline
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Default Re: The Commandments should not be followed ... Part 2

Mat 5:17-20

Jesus completely fulfilled the Mosaic Law. The New Covenant thus includes and concludes the Old Covenant. (perfects and transforms it) The 10c's were retained and refined. In the Christian life, the power of God's Spirit is needed to obey the Law of the New Covenant.

Hence, now there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has freed you from the law of sin and death. For what the law, weakened by the flesh, was powerless to do, this God has done: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for the sake of sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteous decree of the law might be fulfilled in us, who live not according to the flesh but according to the spirit. (Rom 8:1-4)
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Old Aug 1, '08, 7:35 am
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moondweller moondweller is offline
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Default Re: The Commandments should not be followed ... Part 2

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Mat 5:17-20

Jesus completely fulfilled the Mosaic Law. The New Covenant thus includes and concludes the Old Covenant. (perfects and transforms it) The 10c's were retained and refined. In the Christian life, the power of God's Spirit is needed to obey the Law of the New Covenant.
What "LAW" of the New Covenant?

The Jews were under the Mosaic covenant, a covenant of works, which included the Decalogue. Read what Paul states concerning them and their new relation to the Law in respect to Christ:
Rom 7:1-6 "Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.

Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were {aroused} by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
The true believer's relation to the Law is now dead to it, released from it for the purpose of serving God in the Spirit of life and bearing fruit. The Law, including the Decalogue, has no part in the true believer's life, who now serves in "newness of the Spirit."
Quote:
Hence, now there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
That's right. NO CONDEMNATION for those who have died to the Law and are released from it, being now, alive, in the resurrected Christ.
Quote:
For the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has freed you from the law of sin and death.
That's right, death (through the Law) gives way to LIFE in Christ resurrected.
Quote:
For what the law, weakened by the flesh, was powerless to do, this God has done: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for the sake of sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteous decree of the law might be fulfilled in us,
That's fulfilled "in us," (being now made alive in Christ) not "by us."

If you call yourself a Christian and want to be "joined" to the Law, i.e., live under it jurisdiction, then you are considered (spiritually) an adulterous. Can adulterers enter the kingdom of God?
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Old Aug 1, '08, 8:26 am
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Default Re: The Commandments should not be followed ... Part 2

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The true believer's relation to the Law is now dead to it, released from it for the purpose of serving God in the Spirit of life and bearing fruit. The Law, including the Decalogue, has no part in the true believer's life, who now serves in "newness of the Spirit."That's right. NO CONDEMNATION for those who have died to the Law and are released from it, being now, alive, in the resurrected Christ.That's right, death (through the Law) gives way to LIFE in Christ resurrected.That's fulfilled "in us," (being now made alive in Christ) not "by us."
So since the Decalogue has no part in the believers life, they are allowed to murder, steal, commit adultery, etc.?

God Bless,
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Old Aug 1, '08, 8:47 am
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Default Re: The Commandments should not be followed ... Part 2

I also have a question for you, moondweller. Now I know you believe that there are two types of sanctification, a "positional" one and an "experiential" one. Obvioulsy, the "positional" one must automatically follow justification. My question is regarding the "experiential" one. Does this automatically occur with justification? Do all of the saved persevere in this "experiential" sanctification?

God bless,
Michael
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Old Aug 1, '08, 11:32 pm
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Default Re: The Commandments should not be followed ... Part 2

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So since the Decalogue has no part in the believers life, they are allowed to murder, steal, commit adultery, etc.?
Paul's teaching on the Law and the believer went right over your head, didn't it, Mike?

Based on your reply you're still under the false notion that the only relationship God can have with man is one based on Law. And the only way man would ever conduct himself properly on earth is with the threat of Divine damnation held over him. That's not the gospel, Mike.
Quote:
I also have a question for you, moondweller. Now I know you believe that there are two types of sanctification, a "positional" one and an "experiential" one.
Actually, three. There's "ultimate" sanctification.
Quote:
Obvioulsy, the "positional" one must automatically follow justification. My question is regarding the "experiential" one. Does this automatically occur with justification? Do all of the saved persevere in this "experiential" sanctification?
Not all to the same degree. That's why there's many exhortations in the Epistles for the believer to walk in a manner worthy of his calling with which which he'd been called (Eph. 4:1; Rom. 12:1-2) And to grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ (2 Pet. 3:18).

Various things can dampen a believer's experiential sanctification: sin, false teachings, worldly ambitions, lack of knowledge of God's Word, self-imposing the Law, etc. But, of course, salvation itself is not based on experiential sanctification.
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Old Aug 1, '08, 8:55 am
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Default Re: The Commandments should not be followed ... Part 2

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Originally Posted by moondweller View Post
What "LAW" of the New Covenant?

The Jews were under the Mosaic covenant, a covenant of works, which included the Decalogue. Read what Paul states concerning them and their new relation to the Law in respect to Christ:
Rom 7:1-6 "Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.

Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were {aroused} by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
The true believer's relation to the Law is now dead to it, released from it for the purpose of serving God in the Spirit of life and bearing fruit. The Law, including the Decalogue, has no part in the true believer's life, who now serves in "newness of the Spirit."That's right. NO CONDEMNATION for those who have died to the Law and are released from it, being now, alive, in the resurrected Christ.That's right, death (through the Law) gives way to LIFE in Christ resurrected.That's fulfilled "in us," (being now made alive in Christ) not "by us."

If you call yourself a Christian and want to be "joined" to the Law, i.e., live under it jurisdiction, then you are considered (spiritually) an adulterous. Can adulterers enter the kingdom of God?
Moondweller .....

Dead on You have picked Paul's key text on topic.

Christ is the Word, he wrote the Words of Law, in Tables of Stone for the Jews. And, could they keep them ? History tells us they could [would] not.

We must turn from the Law in Stone that cannot save .... we must turn to the Law of Love [Christ & his Beatitudes], that supercedes the prior 'stoney law' ... which was only a shadow of Christ to come.

Do we say the original 10 Laws were not good. NO ! God forbid we trash God's moral code. But, by Rebirth into Christ .... Christ fulfills the Law [of the mind] we cannot keep. But, in Christ we can become lawkeepers [by the spirit], not by our works lest any man boast.

Christ circumcises our hearts, via baptism of H.S., and we receive the keys to the Kingdom. Sealed in Christ by faith and baptism .... adopted into the Kingdom, new creations in Christ. Rooted in tree of life .... intended for fruitful works befitting of our calling.

Our futures certain .... if we remain in the Lord's care as his elect, keeping tight hold on the keys [Christ & H.S].
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