One couple as origin of human species

[Ahimsa]

There might be a way to synthesize monogenesis ("human origins from one couple") with evolutionary theory.

Perhaps at some point in hominid evolution, the first truly human female was born ("God-breathed") with the ability to reproduce via parthenogenesis. But her parthenogenesis did not involve creating simply female clones of herself; rather, she was able to give birth to a male human, genetically different, but still similar, to herself. And since the male was genetically different, the male and the female were able to reproduce normally, without genetic harm found among "incest" parties.

Thus, biblically, the first truly human female was the first human, whom the Bible calls "Adam". Hebrew tradition notes that "Adam" was originally androgynous: the first truly human female therefore had an XY chromosomal profile, though otherwise female. The biblical Adam's "rib" process (producing "Eve") refers to the first truly human female's giving birth, via parthenogenesis, to a human male. Once that birth occurred, the male becomes the new "Adam", and the female renounces her "Adamhood" and becomes "Eve". Thus, humankind would originate from one couple.

Thus, Mary is the second Eve -- because Mary also gave birth parthenogenetically.

As a model, see how Komodo Dragon females are able to reproduce parthenogenetically, giving birth to genetically different males; with whom they are then able to reproduce normally, without genetic harm. This ability might have evolved as a way to survive on Indonesian islands. Perhaps hominids evolved this capability during times of extremely challenging environment conditions roughly 100, 000 Before Present (B.P.).

[reggieM]

Originally Posted by Ahimsa

As a model, see how Komodo Dragon females are able to reproduce parthenogenetically, giving birth to genetically different males; with whom they are then able to reproduce normally, without genetic harm. This ability might have evolved as a way to survive on Indonesian islands. Perhaps hominids evolved this capability during times of extremely challenging environment conditions roughly 100, 000 Before Present (B.P.).

Interesting -- I watched a program on public television last night about the history of Dragons and they mentioned that fact -- I also though the same thing about Adam and Eve, even though I believe the first couple was created ex nihilo.

[Katholish]

I know what you meant to say, but the Bible is pretty explicit in saying it wasn't ex nihilo. Dirt/mud/clay is not "nothing" neither is a rib.

[Dameedna]

Why must there be a way?

We evolved. Life began 13 Billion years ago(at least) when the universe burst into being.

Humans are not the result of 2 people, but the result of millions and millions of years of small replication errors that occured in previous organisms, that gave a species a survival advantage through sheer luck and resulted..eventually in human beings and bonobos.

It is not possible to fit a literal christian story of one man and one woman into our understanding of the universe today.

Life, was not created in 7 days...not were humans a result of incenstuous breeding between adam and eves children.

[Katholish]

A belief in monogenism--that all mankind is decended from one pair of original parents--is a tenet of the Catholic Faith that we are not free to question. Pope Pius XII's encyclical Humani Generis talks about this being a fundamental building block of any acceptable "Christian" theory of evolution.

As for whether modern science presents a contradiction to the Catholic Faith, I would obviously argue that it does not. There is no scientific fact that contradicts the faith, though some scientists certainly do hold theories which if true would contradict the faith. True science could only at best present an apparent contradiction (which in reality would only look like a contradiction to some, but not actually be one).

A truth of science and truth of faith cannot be contradictory. Truth is truth.

[Dameedna]

Originally Posted by Katholish

A belief in monogenism--that all mankind is decended from one pair of original parents--is a tenet of the Catholic Faith that we are not free to question.

Actually, you are free to question anything you want. No-one is going to stop you.

A truth of science and truth of faith cannot be contradictory. Truth is truth.

I agree that there is A truth.

But what people claim as truth, either through faith or science, is not necessarily so. Humans..make mistakes

[Katholish]

Dameedna,

Actually, you are free to question anything you want. No-one is going to stop you.

That is a different kind of freedom. I was referring to moral freedom, and even then my comments only apply to Catholics.

I agree that there is A truth.

But what people claim as truth, either through faith or science, is not necessarily so. Humans..make mistakes

Granted. I just wanted to head off the whole knowledge of faith and knowledge of science being different discussion. I am afraid some Protestants give Christians a bad name when it comes to science implying that faith can prove true science wrong. This is certainly not a Catholic sentiment.

[buffalo]

Originally Posted by Dameedna

Why must there be a way?

We evolved. Life began 13 Billion years ago(at least) when the universe burst into being.

Humans are not the result of 2 people, but the result of millions and millions of years of small replication errors that occured in previous organisms, that gave a species a survival advantage through sheer luck and resulted..eventually in human beings and bonobos.

It is not possible to fit a literal christian story of one man and one woman into our understanding of the universe today.

Life, was not created in 7 days...not were humans a result of incenstuous breeding between adam and eves children.

Sure it is:

God could have supernaturally created Adam and Eve and inserted them into the timeline wherever He wishes regardless of what may or may not have been happening in the universe at the time.

And yes, relations with brothers and sisters were necessary at the time.

[Michael Prophet]

The argument about wether all people descended from Adam & Eve fails to take into account that God could have made sure the right genes were passed on in the first generations. Science tells us all humans descended from one woman! Two out of two ain't bad.
Mike

[StAnastasia]

Originally Posted by Michael Prophet

The argument about wether all people descended from Adam & Eve fails to take into account that God could have made sure the right genes were passed on in the first generations.
Mike

God could have created the world yesterday, and we would never know it.

[reggieM]

Originally Posted by StAnastasia

God could have created the world yesterday, and we would never know it.

That's a good reminder about the narrow limits of human knowledge.

[buffalo]

Originally Posted by StAnastasia

God could have created the world yesterday, and we would never know it.

Excellent. Now we are getting somewhere.

However, God would not have done so (according to some) because that would be deceiving. But that is a bogus argument. If I am walking down the beach and I see one left footprint does it mean a deceiver is a work? It simply means that the water came up and washed away the right footprints. Or the person hopped along, or the person only had one leg. Presumably no one was acting as a deceiver (although that is one possibility).

Which of the possibilities is correct and how would I know?

[kesa82]

Hmm, the more I look at Genesis, the more I am inclined to think that it isn't a blueprint of creation. It is more like one of Aesop's fables, that is to say, the point of the story is the moral of the story.
The rest was filler detail.

It says Cain took a wife and went to dwell in the land of Nod, east of Eden. Waite a minute ! WHO is Cain's wife?? IT DOESN'T SAY. Was she his sister? Did God create a woman somewhere else, some other time? IT DOESN'T SAY.
It also says Cain founded a city. I'm not sure what the authors definition of " city" was, but I'm guessing he meant more than 20 people. If Cain and his wife were responsible for all these people, they sure must have done a lot of procreating!
And who did the denizens of this city procreate with, their sisters?

Why was Cain given a mark so that others would not kill him?
WHAT OTHERS??

I don't think the author of Genesis was stupid, or just making up a story, or suppressing the truth.
The details were just details, and the details weren't important.

[davidv]

Originally Posted by kesa82

{snip}
The details were just details, and the details weren't important.

That is like saying the some of the brush marks and choice of paint color on the "Mona Lisa" are unimportant. All one need is a line drawing to appreciate it. Not!

As the inspired Word of God, every detail included in the Bible is important.

[Michael David]

Yes Kesa, all the questions one asks. If nothing else it gets one to read the Bible more... doesn't it? Wondering?

I too have those questions when reading the Bible. But considering my brain size and God's Brain size, there will be questions with what God has said. Can we understand what He understands? Can we know what He knows? Can He tell us these things so our little pea-sized brain will comprehend it? Have you tried talking to a cat or a dog and have them know what you said? The difference between us and God is further then that... although we are made in His image. Should I say to you go one block to the North, that will get you there? Or should I rather say, go right, pass the cafe (watch the grill in the sidewalk, it can trip you), the dry cleaners, movie theater, the vacant store front (duck for the low hanging sign), and you will be at the hotel on the corner? How much detail do you want to get where you want to go?

If you like to contemplate things, try Genesis 1... Male and female were made at the end. Now Genesis 2, Adam is made and later Eve. Are these chapters backwards? Should they overlap? Or are they from different angles of the same thing? We live life from different angles... if you are going North, you cannot go South, if you are going East, you are not going North or South.

Perhaps looking at the bible like this will help us to see what God was trying to tell us, and from His angle to ours, perhaps not for ease of understanding, but that which could be understood... if one sought. (The ask...seek...knock idea). This is why we "study" the Bible, not just read it like a novel.