If no TLM, is it sinning to not attend NO mass?

[falcogreg]

Recently, my family and I went on vacation. Prior to leaving, I checked the internet to see if there were any TLM's in the area. Unfortunately, there were none. So, when Sunday morning rolled around, my wife and I discussed the issue and decided not to go. The reasons were several fold. First, we are staunch traditionalists and just cannot embrace the NO mass. Secondly, we try to limit our children's exposure to this (although my son attends catholic HS and goes to the NO mass during the school year - you should hear what he has to say but that is a subject for another thread). Lastly, the friend we were visiting told us of an incident that happened recently. The area they are in has 26 churches staffed by only 14 priests. To say this is a juggling act is an understatement. One week the priest in charge of scheduling could not find a priest for this local church. So, what did he do? He contacted a Presbyterian minister and asked him to fill in, which he did. If you arrived late and did not hear the announcement and, as my friend put it, you should have seen the shock on some peoples' faces when he mentioned he was married in his sermon. Sometimes I just shake my head in disbelief!!! And I wont' even go into the issues of consecration, validity of the mass and such.

Now, this past week, my local priest who celebrates the TLM (and unfortunately the NO as well) mentioned that we must attend mass when we are away on vacation, no matter whether it is a TLM, a NO, Marion rite, orthodox rite, etc. I must admit I did not think to check into some of the other rites. Anyway, since I am trying to formulate my thoughts for my next confession, I am wondering if we have committed a sin and whether it is mortal or venial? No doubt my local priest and I will have some interesting dialog on this subject. I would appreciate your thoughts on this matter. IYO, did we sin by not attending the NO mass? What other options could/should we have considered?

Thanks for your thoughts! Greg

[Friar David, O.Carm]

Canon Law states;

Can. 1247 On Sundays and other holydays of obligation, the faithful are obliged to assist at Mass. They are also to abstain from such work or business that would inhibit the worship to be given to God, the joy proper to the Lord's Day, or the due relaxation of mind and body.

It says Mass, it does not say the Ordinary Form of the Mass or the Extraordinary Form of the Mass. So if there was an OF Mass that you could have gone to and you did not receive a dispensation from your pastor to miss Mass then yes, you sin and you compounded this by not allowing your children (if you have any) to attend Mass.

[bkovacs]

Originally Posted by ByzCath

Canon Law states;

Can. 1247 On Sundays and other holydays of obligation, the faithful are obliged to assist at Mass. They are also to abstain from such work or business that would inhibit the worship to be given to God, the joy proper to the Lord's Day, or the due relaxation of mind and body.

It says Mass, it does not say the Ordinary Form of the Mass or the Extraordinary Form of the Mass. So if there was an OF Mass that you could have gone to and you did not receive a dispensation from your pastor to miss Mass then yes, you sin and you compounded this by not allowing your children (if you have any) to attend Mass.

What if it was a Byzantine liturgy that I had to miss. Should I go to an Orthodox Church or a Roman Catholic NO Mass, with guitars and the lot.

[OhMalley]

Originally Posted by bkovacs

What if it was a Byzantine liturgy that I had to miss. Should I go to an Orthodox Church or a Roman Catholic EF Mass?

The Mass (OF or EF) can substitute for the Divine Liturgy. The DL celebrated outside the Catholic Church CANNOT under ordinary circumstance. Simple.

[CB Catholic]

Originally Posted by bkovacs

What if it was a Byzantine liturgy that I had to miss. Should I go to an Orthodox Church or a Roman Catholic NO Mass, with guitars and the lot.

You would go to the Roman Catholic NO Mass, because the Orthodox Liturgy does not fulfill your Sunday obligation. And if the music of the guitar offends you, just suck it up and offer it up for someone who needs it. And try to remember that the guitarist loves Jesus as much as you do, and is doing his best for Him, and God is pleased with his offering if he is sincere. That should get you out of there without a total breakdown.

[stevusmagnus]

Originally Posted by CB Catholic

You would go to the Roman Catholic NO Mass, because the Orthodox Liturgy does not fulfill your Sunday obligation. And if the music of the guitar offends you, just suck it up and offer it up for someone who needs it. And try to remember that the guitarist loves Jesus as much as you do, and is doing his best for Him, and God is pleased with his offering if he is sincere. That should get you out of there without a total breakdown.

Canon Law clearly states an Orthodox Mass CAN fulfill one's Sunday obligation if genuine spiritual advantage is to be gained and the error of indifferentism is avoided. See my first post. I completely disagree with this, but Canon Law does state it. Canon Law is very liberal in this regard. Which is why it is quite amazing that some would make it so strict.

So if genuine spiritual advantage can be gained by going to a schismatic Mass rather than an NO and we know there is no obligation to go to an Orthodox Mass, I'd say the Sunday obligation is dispensed with. The canon also states "moral impossibility" of attending a Catholic Mass. For many Traditional Catholics attending the NO Mass is a moral impossibility and therefore if there is no TLM available the Sunday obligation for Mass is dispensed with under Canon Law, although they still must make the day holy through personal and family prayer.

[Friar David, O.Carm]

Originally Posted by bkovacs

What if it was a Byzantine liturgy that I had to miss. Should I go to an Orthodox Church or a Roman Catholic NO Mass, with guitars and the lot.

I would attend the Latin Church's liturgy, which would be the Ordinary Form or the Extraordinary Form of the Mass as I could receive communion there. But then I also have other obligations due to my vows that the laity do not have.

There is nothing wrong with guitars, they are used extensively in Latin America as they can afford them. Now the music choice might be off but that is another issue.

But you are not obligated to attend a Latin Church Mass, the obligation resides with your Church and if you are on vacation where there is no Byzantine Church of which ever Byzantine Church you belong to then there is no obligation but I would speak with your pastor or spiritual father before going and do as they say.

[stevusmagnus]

Originally Posted by ByzCath

But you are not obligated to attend a Latin Church Mass, the obligation resides with your Church and if you are on vacation where there is no Byzantine Church of which ever Byzantine Church you belong to then there is no obligation but I would speak with your pastor or spiritual father before going and do as they say.

Amazing. So if you are an Eastern Rite Catholic and there is no Eastern Rite Mass on vacation your Sunday obligation is expunged? What Canon is that?

But yet you would deny this same expunging of obligation under Canon Law where a Traditional Roman Rite Catholic is, in conscience, morally unable to attend an NO Mass?

[bkovacs]

Originally Posted by ByzCath

I would attend the Latin Church's liturgy, which would be the Ordinary Form or the Extraordinary Form of the Mass as I could receive communion there. But then I also have other obligations due to my vows that the laity do not have.

There is nothing wrong with guitars, they are used extensively in Latin America as they can afford them. Now the music choice might be off but that is another issue.

But you are not obligated to attend a Latin Church Mass, the obligation resides with your Church and if you are on vacation where there is no Byzantine Church of which ever Byzantine Church you belong to then there is no obligation but I would speak with your pastor or spiritual father before going and do as they say.

There also used extensively in rock concerts. Guitars are not a liturgical instrument. Maybe in the OF Roman Mass they are. But not in the EF Roman Mass, or the Divine Liturgies of the East. Including Oriental Churches. Personally I would first attend a EF Mass, if not then I would seek an Orthodox Church. The OF Roman Mass, is to protestant for me. Just me!

[bacon man]

Originally Posted by bkovacs

There also used extensively in rock concerts. Guitars are not a liturgical instrument. Maybe in the OF Roman Mass they are. But not in the EF Roman Mass, or the Divine Liturgies of the East. Including Oriental Churches. Personally I would first attend a EF Mass, if not then I would seek an Orthodox Church. The OF Roman Mass, is to protestant for me. Just me!

What is it with people talking about guitars and drums? I've never heard those in Church.

[pickguard1]

Originally Posted by bacon man

What is it with people talking about guitars and drums? I've never heard those in Church.

You're lucky. I was once priviledged to here an instrumental version of the Red Hot Chili Pepper's "Under the Bridge" after communion.

[RyanML]

Originally Posted by pickguard1

You're lucky. I was once priviledged to here an instrumental version of the Red Hot Chili Pepper's "Under the Bridge" after communion.

Drums and guitars aren't so bad...I had to watch a bishop go on and on speaking in "tongues" after a rock version of the Gloria

[pickguard1]

Originally Posted by RyanML

Drums and guitars aren't so bad...I had to watch a bishop go on and on speaking in "tongues" after a rock version of the Gloria

I love drums and guitars (I play both). But Metallica and Eric Clapton should be reserved to the secular arena. (Although I must admit there is probably an abundant amount of ecclisiastical music that has been adapted for classical guitar - using that would at least show good fatih in trying to promote holy music, which admittedly, Metallica, Eric Clapton and the Red Hot Chili Peppers are not)

[OhMalley]

Originally Posted by bkovacs

There also used extensively in rock concerts. Guitars are not a liturgical instrument. Maybe in the OF Roman Mass they are. But not in the EF Roman Mass, or the Divine Liturgies of the East. Including Oriental Churches. Personally I would first attend a EF Mass, if not then I would seek an Orthodox Church. The OF Roman Mass, is to protestant for me. Just me!

Anyone who has heard or watched Andres Segovia play a classical guitar would never make the stultified comment that the guitar is "not a liturgical instrument." It all depends on the guitar and the guitarist. Guitars are every bit the liturgical instrument that the violins they play at the EWTN shrine are. Both are orchestral instruments.

I know some Eastern Catholic churches flatly reject ANY instrument. They most especially REJECT the pipe organ because they equate it to a calliope suitable for the circus and possibly the county fair. I wonder how "traditionalists" feel about that -- the tiny number that know this of course?

Anyone suggesting "The OF Roman Mass, is to protestant for me" cannot really know anything about the Holy Sacifice of the Mass -- of ANY form. That is a downright nasty comment that is best left not said.

[Friar David, O.Carm]

Originally Posted by bkovacs

There also used extensively in rock concerts. Guitars are not a liturgical instrument. Maybe in the OF Roman Mass they are. But not in the EF Roman Mass, or the Divine Liturgies of the East. Including Oriental Churches. Personally I would first attend a EF Mass, if not then I would seek an Orthodox Church. The OF Roman Mass, is to protestant for me. Just me!

Actually, they are liturgical instruments, in Latin America, so if the bishops approve of them there then they must be ok. It is the music that is played on them in some places that is what is wrong.

As for the Divine Liturgy of St John Chrysostom, there is no liturgical instrument. Any instrument would be an abuse.



As for the rest of this thread, it is just more of the ultra-traditionalists playing as if they are the ultimate authority, the exact sin that lead to the protestants leaving the Church.