Where did the 'Rosary' come from??

[Charlotte408]

My girl, shes reading a book right now called 'Eat, Pray, Love' about some ladys 'spiritual journey' through europe/India/Indonesia and her experiences with Yogis/Gurus mediation that kinda stuff...shes really been getting into that kind of stuff and I know its not a good idea, but I figure its best to wait till she gets done with the book, read it, and then counter it with some food for thought from a catholic perspective...

But last night I was at her house and she asked me to read this one chapter...

It starts off with St. Teresa of Avila...saying that she would go into trances..deep trances and even the other nuns couldnt feel her pulse...and that she wrote something saying that there were 7 chambers, sort of, within her soul...and that thru meditation, specifically meditation WITHOUT prayer you could reach the inner sanctum and be one with God...th author said, Avila said that prayer would cloud the path...and you just had to meditate and be one with God...but that in her writings, because of persecution of religion at the time, she kinda, recomposed herself later and retracted, or restated them differently...any how..

then the author goes on to say that, I'm not sure if its 'yogis' or 'gurus' but they believe the spirit is like a 'snake'...coiled up at the base of your spine..and the right guru can touch you...and get that snake to rise...and strike at some appex point at the base of your spine and brain and give you 'enlightenment' where you can easily find this 'inner chamber' and be with God..

Complete Bs...and the whole 'snake' thing rose hairs on my arms..

But its like the author was trying to make so many catholic references...then she goes on to say that the catholic crusaders, i think is how she put it, went to india..and the yogis there wear beads...and while they meditate and go thru this snake thingy they say these 'mantras' I dont remember what the beads were called but the mantra in english is 'I AM THAT' anyways they say this mantra with their fingers on a bead and repeat for each bead...author says the catholics liked the idea so much they brought it home as a rosary...

therefore even catholicsm has some kind of yoga-hindu-budda background...



Is this true? Where DID the rosary come from?? Any good advice on why this kinda stuff is not a good idea?

[SteveGC]

not sure where all that came from

but my understanding is that the rosary prayer was revealed to St Dominic in the 13th century, and it grew from there.

[Lainey63]

Here is the book your daughter was talking about it is called The Interior Castlehttp://books.google.com/books?id=M58...age&q=&f=false it is not the same as what she is practicing at all. About the Rosary:
HISTORY OF THE ROSARY Fr. William Saunders Please explain the history and background of the rosary. Is it true that the Blessed Mother gave it to St. Dominic? The rosary is one of the most cherished prayers of our Catholic Church. Introduced by the Creed, the Our Father, three Hail Marys and the Doxology ("Glory Be"), and concluded with the Salve Regina, the rosary involves the recitation of five decades consisting of the Our Father, 10 Hail Marys and the Doxology. During this recitation, the individual meditates on the saving mysteries of our Lord's life and the faithful witness of our Blessed Mother.
Journeying through the Joyful, Sorrowful and Glorious mysteries of the rosary, the individual brings to mind our Lord's incarnation, His passion and death and His resurrection from the dead. In so doing, the rosary assists us in growing in a deeper appreciation of these mysteries, in uniting our life more closely to our Lord and in imploring His graced assistance to live the faith. We also ask for the prayers of our Blessed Mother, who leads all believers to her Son.
The origins of the rosary are "sketchy" at best. The use of "prayer beads" and the repeated recitation of prayers to aid in meditation stem from the earliest days of the Church and has roots in pre-Christian times. Evidence exists from the Middle Ages that strings of beads were used to count Our Fathers and Hail Marys. Actually, these strings of beads became known as "Paternosters," the Latin for "Our Father."
The structure of the rosary gradually evolved between the 12th and 15th centuries. Eventually 50 Hail Marys were recited and linked with verses of psalms or other phrases evoking the lives of Jesus and Mary. During this time, this prayer form became known as the rosarium ("rose garden"), actually a common term to designate a collection of similar material, such as an anthology of stories on the same subject or theme. During the 16th century, the structure of the five-decade rosary based on the three sets of mysteries prevailed.
Tradition does hold that St. Dominic (d. 1221) devised the rosary as we know it. Moved by a vision of our Blessed Mother, he preached the use of the rosary in his missionary work among the Albigensians, who had denied the mystery of Christ. Some scholars take exception to St. Dominic's role in forming the rosary. The earliest accounts of his life do not mention it, the Dominican constitutions do not link him with it and contemporaneous portraits do not include it as a symbol to identify the saint.
In 1922, Dom Louis Cougaud stated, "The various elements which enter into the composition of that Catholic devotion commonly called the rosary are the product of a long and gradual development which began before St. Dominic's time, which continued without his having any share in it, and which only attained its final shape several centuries after his death." However, other scholars would rebut that St. Dominic not so much "invented" the rosary as he preached its use to convert sinners and those who had strayed from the faith. Moreover, at least a dozen popes have mentioned St. Dominic's connection with the rosary, sanctioning his role as at least a "pious belief."
The rosary gained greater popularity in the 1500s, when Moslem Turks were ravaging Eastern Europe. Recall that in 1453, Constantinople had fallen to the Moslems, leaving the Balkans and Hungary open to conquest. With Moslems raiding even the coast of Italy, the control of the Mediterranean was now at stake.
In 1571, Pope Pius V organized a fleet under the command of Don Juan of Austria the half-brother of King Philip II of Spain. While preparations were underway, the Holy Father asked all of the faithful to say the rosary and implore our Blessed Mother's prayers, under the title Our Lady of Victory, that our Lord would grant victory to the Christians. Although the Moslem fleet outnumbered that of the Christians in both vessels and sailors, the forces were ready to meet in battle. The Christian flagship flew a blue banner depicting Christ crucified. On October 7, 1571, the Moslems were defeated at the Battle of Lepanto. The following year, Pope St. Pius V established the Feast of the Holy Rosary on October 7, where the faithful would not only remember this victory, but also give thanks to the Lord for all of His benefits and remember the powerful intercession of our Blessed Mother.
The fact that our Church continues to include the Feast of the Holy Rosary on the liturgical calendar testifies to the importance and goodness of this form of prayer. Archbishop Fulton Sheen said, "The rosary is the book of the blind, where souls see and there enact the greatest drama of love the world has ever known; it is the book of the simple, which initiates them into mysteries and knowledge more satisfying than the education of other men; it is the book of the aged, whose eyes close upon the shadow of this world, and open on the substance of the next. The power of the rosary is beyond description."
Fr. Saunders is president of the Notre Dame Institute and associate pastor of Queen of Apostles Parish, both in Alexandria.

[Charlotte408]

Originally Posted by Lainey63

Here is the book your daughter was talking about it is called The Interior Castlehttp://books.google.com/books?id=M58...age&q=&f=false it is not the same as what she is practicing at all.


I'll definitely check that out...

About the Rosary:
HISTORY OF THE ROSARY Fr. William Saunders
...The origins of the rosary are "sketchy" at best. The use of "prayer beads" and the repeated recitation of prayers to aid in meditation stem from the earliest days of the Church and has roots in pre-Christian times. Evidence exists from the Middle Ages that strings of beads were used to count Our Fathers and Hail Marys. Actually, these strings of beads became known as "Paternosters," the Latin for "Our Father."
The structure of the rosary gradually evolved between the 12th and 15th centuries. Eventually 50 Hail Marys were recited and linked with verses of psalms or other phrases evoking the lives of Jesus and Mary. During this time, this prayer form became known as the rosarium ("rose garden"), actually a common term to designate a collection of similar material, such as an anthology of stories on the same subject or theme. During the 16th century, the structure of the five-decade rosary based on the three sets of mysteries prevailed.
Tradition does hold that St. Dominic (d. 1221) devised the rosary as we know it. Moved by a vision of our Blessed Mother, he preached the use of the rosary in his missionary work among the Albigensians, who had denied the mystery of Christ.


I looked up these 'Albigensians' and I'm a little concerned...so...like, it even says that the 'roots were pre-christian'...so..meaning that the whole concept of praying on beads came before christianity, before the church, so it could be true?? and the article about the albigensians says they were 'cathars' who did not believe in God..and that 'The Catholic Church regarded the sect as dangerously heretical. Faced with the rapid spread of the movement across the Languedoc region the Church first sought peaceful attempts at conversion, undertaken by Dominicans. These were not very successful, and after the murder on 15 January 1208 of the papal legate Pierre de Castelnau by a knight in the employ of Count Raymond of Toulouse, the Church called for a crusade, which the French carried out and was known as the Albigensian Crusade. ' the whole 'crusade' thing kinda even furthers her argument?!

Some scholars take exception to St. Dominic's role in forming the rosary. The earliest accounts of his life do not mention it, the Dominican constitutions do not link him with it and contemporaneous portraits do not include it as a symbol to identify the saint.
In 1922, Dom Louis Cougaud stated, "The various elements which enter into the composition of that Catholic devotion commonly called the rosary are the product of a long and gradual development which began before St. Dominic's time, which continued without his having any share in it, and which only attained its final shape several centuries after his death." However, other scholars would rebut that St. Dominic not so much "invented" the rosary as he preached its use to convert sinners and those who had strayed from the faith. Moreover, at least a dozen popes have mentioned St. Dominic's connection with the rosary, sanctioning his role as at least a "pious belief."

Ok, so there it is there, even our scholars say he didnt invent it...that makes arguing against these kinda beliefs harder..when our own traditions stem from them...APOLOGETICS HELP!!! lol...

[BenFischer]

Originally Posted by Charlotte408

Ok, so there it is there, even our scholars say he didnt invent it...that makes arguing against these kinda beliefs harder..when our own traditions stem from them...APOLOGETICS HELP!!! lol...

I'm not sure I follow your post. The albigensians didn't pray the rosary or anything like it. St. Dominic spread devotion to the rosary as a means of combating the albigensians.

A set of prayer beads is a fairly obvious piece of construction. if you want to count off a certain number of prayers, that's a pretty simple and intuitive way to do it. I'm sure lots of cultures came up with a set of prayer beads for their own purpose. That doesn't undercut the Catholic rosary, nor does it imply that the rosary is just a pagan practice that seeped into the Catholic Church.

The bit about the paternosters is similar to what I read, tat the rosary was a lay equivalent to the Liturgy of the Hours prayed by monks. The LOTH at the time was essentially a recitation of all 150 Psalms, something the laity would not have had committed to memory (at least not all), so a practice came up of praying 150 Our Fathers or 150 Hail Marys in imitation of that. At some point the Psalms were grouped into 3 different "moods", which eventually translated to the three sets of mysteries.

FWIW, the 3 extra Hail Marys at the start of the rosary, would bring the total number to 153, the number of fish that were caught in the Bible story when Jesus appeared to the apostles after His Resurrection.

According to that story, it's unclear how much was revealed to St. Dominic. It's possible that at the time, the rosary was an established prayer, but possibly it was only known about in a limited geographic area, and Mary instructed him to spread devotion to it. Or he could have received instructions on the actual format. Or the practice of 150 Hail Marys was established and St Dominic was told to add the Our Fathers. Or the specific mysteries, or ...

When you look at the various chaplets in the Catholic Church, the Dominican Rosary doesn't have been revealed in the same way as the Franciscan Crown Rosary or the Divine Mercy Chaplet. But that doesn't mean it's not a powerful weapon. Whether Mary gave specific instructions on how to pray it or not, she DID instruct Dominic to spread devotion to it and the rosary has converted untold numbers of people and praying the rosary is credited with many miracles. Miracles that are hard to explain if praying the rosary was not pleasing to God.

Also, to my knowledge, in all the writings of the saints, all the approved apparitions of Jesus and Mary, not once has anyone said to NOT pray the rosary. Our Lady at Fatima added a prayer to the rosary, but she didn't take anything away from it. Jesus, when he instructed St Faustina on the Divine Mercy didn't tell her to pray that Chaplet INSTEAD of the rosary. If the rosary were not a valid prayer, you'd think someone would have said so. Of course, that's all private revelation so you're not required to believe it.

[Lainey63]

Charlotte I think you read it too fast:

Moved by a vision of our Blessed Mother, he preached the use of the rosary in his missionary work among the Albigensians, who had denied the mystery of Christ.
That means he was converting & teaching the Albiegensians.
Here's another website: http://www.personalizedrosaries.com/history.html
I believe the point is that the Blessed Mother appeared to him "to promote the Rosary" it took a while for it to as it is in its present form. It was used initially by the poor & illiterate (which was the majority of the people, there was no middle class, which is also the reasons for the stained glass windows that depict biblical scenes in the churches)...to meditate & pray the psalms..for thousands of years before the printing press was invented only the wealthy knew how to read and only the wealthy could afford to buy a book..so what was the point of learning how to read if one could not afford to purchase a book?

[Charlotte408]

Oh dont get me wrong, Ben, not at all, I totally believe in the Rosary and the power of it...but like I was saying, my girlfriends reading this 'yoga' book...and from my understanding I thought it was pretty much catholic teaching to stay away from all that hinduism, guru kinda stuff...i thought it was bad news...i listen to the catholic radio station and theyre pretty clear about it, that all that mysticsim stuff can do a lot of harm..i wish i knew a particular date or had a transcript..im not good at remembering exact points like that...but ive even heard it said that like, we shouldnt attend those types of marriage ceremonies..things like that...


so in that same line of thinking, the further my girlfriend is getting into this, religion, philosophy, whatever it is, the more I want to reach out to her and tell her about catholicsm..and i really REALLY wish i could have some kinda clear cut example of why this kind of mysticsm stuff doesnt work...

but then, like i said she hit me with the rosary...

so heres what i've gathered so far...

there were other religions that practiced 'meditating' on prayer beads.

during a crusade, a catholic saw these prayer beads, and used them for praying, calling it a 'rosary'. this may have been St. Dominik, as he was the first one noted in the catholic church, promoting it among the albigians during a crusade..

we do use prayer beads for mediation, but we 'meditate' on our catholic prayers, and mysteries..which lead us to Christ...

but we do not believe in meditating on these beads without the catholic prayer, mysteries, etc. CHRIST in mind, because without Him its like your .. meditating without a guide and it could lead you into...idk?? am i going in the right direction so far??

[RyanML]

The basic idea of meditation is "familiarity". In Buddhism and other eastern religions, meditation is about familiarity with oneself. In Christianity, meditation is about familiarity with Jesus Christ. Meditation in those religions is a work without merit. Meditation for a Christian is a work of grace that unites us more intimately with Jesus Christ. If you separate Christ from meditation then you're just wasting your time. This was the teaching of St. Teresa of Avila. If I'm not mistaken, "meditation" in which we do nothing but rather God acts upon the soul is more appropriately termed contemplation.

[RosaryCrusader]

Charlotte,

There are a lot of common practices within religions such as the use of beads to aid in prayer or meditation or both. Just because the author states they originate within buddhism or any eastern mysticism does not make it so. The ancient jews used prayer beads long before buddha ever slapped his belly.

Concerning why it's not a good idea for a Catholic to read things like this - well, it depends. If they're steadfast in their faith and are reading it for apologetics reasons that's one thing but If they're reading it because they're not convinced of the truthfulness of the Catholic faith or if they're "searching" then that's entirely different and is putting your faith in danger and is insulting to Our Lord who alone is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

I went to adoration one night and saw a book on St. Therese the little flower. Upon thumbing through it I realized it was a new age book talking about channeling power and energy from nature and the use of crystals and what not. The author was stating all kinds of new age nonsense about St. Therese giving her a crystal rosary and helping her along her path to a "higher consciousness" and encouraging her to make use of the spiritual energy in the "vortexes" of psychic energy in Sedona, AZ.

How such a book ended up in a Catholic adoration chapel I do not know. But the book went home with me and suffered the cruel, but appropriate, death by fire.

[BenFischer]

As Fr Corapi says, when you pray the rosary, pray the Gospel. You meditate on His life and public ministry.

I remember I was praying the rosary one time after a friend was diagnosed with cancer. The words of the Our Father and Hail Mary really hit home: "give us this day our daily bread" and "pray for us now and at the hour of our death". What perfect prayers! "Thy will be done" was a little tough though. And I was also thinking about the things that happened to Jesus and his friends in the Gospel. Very powerful

Originally Posted by RosaryCrusader

Charlotte,

The ancient jews used prayer beads long before buddha ever slapped his belly.

That's funny

[Monica4316]

St Teresa of Avila has NOTHING to do with this stuff and she never said that we can reach the '7th mansion' without prayer, but rather with prayer, just a different type of contemplative prayer that is sometimes without words. (and this happens only in the last mansions)

Christian (Catholic) meditation is different than Eastern. It's not emptying your mind, but filling it. We can meditate on Scripture, when praying the Rosary, etc. St Teresa of Avila was blessed with experiencing God's presence in a special way. She said herself, she didn't reach it by her own effort, (as Eastern religions teaches we should do) - but that it was a gift of grace.

As for the Rosary, here is what it says in St Louis de Montfort's "Secret of the Rosary":

SINCE the Holy Rosary is composed, principally and in substance, of the Prayer of Christ and the Angelic Salutation, that is, the Our Father and the Hail Mary, it was without doubt the first prayer and the first devotion of the faithful and has been in use all through the centuries, from the time of the Apostles and disciples down to the present.

But it was only in the year 1214, however, that Holy Mother Church received the Rosary in its present form and according to the method we use today. It was given to the Church by Saint Dominic who had received it from the Blessed Virgin as a powerful means of converting the Albigensians and other
sinners.

I will tell you the story of how he received it, which is found in the very well-known book De Dignitate Psalterii by Blessed Alan de la Roche. [1] Saint Dominic, seeing that the gravity of people's sins was hindering the conversion of the Albigensians, withdrew into a forest near Toulouse where he prayed unceasingly for three days and three nights. During this time he did nothing but weep and do harsh penances in order to appease the anger of Almighty God. He used his discipline so much that his body was lacerated, and finally he fell into a coma.

At this point Our Lady appeared to him, accompanied by three Angels, and she said:

"Dear Dominic, do you know which weapon the Blessed Trinity wants to use to reform the world?"

"Oh, my Lady," answered Saint Dominic, "you know far better than I do because next to your Son Jesus Christ you have always been the chief instrument of our salvation."

Then Our Lady replied: "I want you to know that, in this kind of warfare, the battering ram has always been the Angelic Psalter which is the foundation stone of the New Testament. Therefore if you want to reach these hardened souls and win them over to God, preach my Psalter."

So he arose, comforted, and burning with zeal for the conversion of the people in that district he made straight for the Cathedral. At once unseen Angels rang the bells to gather the people together and Saint Dominic began to preach.

At the very beginning of his sermon an appalling storm broke out, the earth shook, the sun was darkened, and there was so much thunder and lightning that all were very much afraid. Even greater was their fear when looking at a picture of Our Lady exposed in a prominent place they saw her raise her arms to Heaven three times to call down God's vengeance upon them if they failed to be converted, to amend their lives, and seek the protection of the Holy Mother of God.

God wished, by means of these supernatural phenomena, to spread the new devotion of the Holy Rosary and to make it more widely known.

At last, at the prayer of Saint Dominic, the storm came to an end, and he went on preaching. So fervently and compellingly did he explain the importance and value of the Holy Rosary that almost all the people of Toulouse embraced it and renounced their false beliefs. In a very short time a great improvement was seen in the town; people began leading Christian lives and gave up their former bad habits.

[Monica4316]

so heres what i've gathered so far...

there were other religions that practiced 'meditating' on prayer beads.

during a crusade, a catholic saw these prayer beads, and used them for praying, calling it a 'rosary'. this may have been St. Dominik, as he was the first one noted in the catholic church, promoting it among the albigians during a crusade..

no that is not true at all because before St Dominic, the Rosary already existed in a way. He just helped put it in its completed form.

It started with the monks and nuns praying the psalms.. but the illiterate people, they didn't know the psalms, so they prayed 150 Our Fathers instead. Very likely they counted them on prayer beads. they also prayed Hail Marys.

Then to combat the Albigensian heresy, St Dominic saw a vision of Mary telling Him to preach her psalter (which was only later termed the Rosary, because of the belief and private revelations that it makes Our Lady a crown of roses).

so you might say that the repetition of the Our Fathers/Hail Marys started with the religious orders, or earlier..perhaps even in the early Church. Not from other religions.

The Rosary primarily comes from the words of St Gabriel, St Elizabeth, and of course Our Lord (in the Our Father). So it has divine origins. It evolved into its present form and significance slowly through history, and for this God used people like St Dominic, Blessed Alan de la Roche, etc. Recently, 5 more Mysteries were added to it, the Luminous Mysteries. And Our Lady of Fatima told us to pray the Rosary.

God bless

[sheila0405]

Originally Posted by Charlotte408

therefore even catholicsm has some kind of yoga-hindu-budda background...



Is this true?

No one answered this part of your post. It is true that Satan counterfeits what God does in an attempt to trick us away from God. God has created mankind with spirituality so that we can know and love Him perfectly. Satan wants to destroy mankind, so he attacks that which is closest to God--our spirit. Meditation, prayer, relaxation, etc can all be used by man to reach out toward God. Those same spiritual exercises can be used to divert us away from Him. It's important to keep yourself in line with God and His truth, and to ask Him to keep us safe from the devil and his lies. That's why the prayer to St Michael is so important for the Church. We need to be alert to the wiles of the devil. If you find the hairs on your arms going up, trust that feeling. Don't hesitate to get involved with what your daughter is reading and discuss it with her so that you can teach her how to discern good from evil. God bless you.