3 wisemen astrologers.

SimonArizona · #1 Sep 28, '09, 9:59 am

I saw this bible video, non-catholic, that said astrology was common in Jesus time, and the wisemen saw the star in aries the ram. However, I thought astrology meant belief in Fate and not the sovereign providence of God. Wasn't astrology condemed by the Jews?

It was also an angel of the Lord that appeared to the wisemen and told them a king is born unto you.

Your insights are appreciated.

Thing · #2 Sep 28, '09, 10:18 am

The wise men were pagan magi from the east; the magi were those spiritual leader types who might for example tell the future for their tribe by looking a a lambs liver or intestines etc., etc.
I think there was also an oracle in Greece who had some inkling of the messianic events. The oracle was again a pagan priestess-type who lived/or worked

in a cave and prophecied about future events to those who would visit her; she straddled a crack in the rock inside the cave and went into a trance, I believe. Some say the area was geologically active and fumes helped the oracle to enter a trance. However, God works in mysterious ways.
Greek philosophers also expressed similar ideas to some of Jesus' teachings regarding morals, etc.
Perhaps it is like the spirit of God being poured out to these people also to prepare their nations also for this very unique event in human history.

chaunceygardner · #3 Sep 28, '09, 11:06 am

Most bible commentaries that I have seen say that the Magi were Syrian or Persian priests and/or astrologers. Matthew does not tell us how many there were or their names. Three is assumed due to the number of gifts.

The Angels appeared to the shepherds in Luke, not to the Magi. They came to look for Jesus based on their interpretation of the new "star" that appeared in the heavens. Since most people believed that heavens were "fixed" back then (except for the few "wandering" planets that were known) an appearance of a new object in the night sky (such as a comet or a supernova) was thought to be the work of the gods (or God, if you were a Jewish monotheist) and a sign that something important, good or bad was going to happen.

You should read carefully both the Luke and Matthew versions of the nativity. You will see significant differences in their two stories, as well as assumptions that people make that are not supported by the Gospels (such as that there were 3 Magi). For example, most people don't realize that when the Magi arrived in Bethlehem, the Holy Family was in a house, not in a stable.

Astrology was very important in most lands and cultures at that time, and particularly so in the Mid-east, so the story of the Magi is a good fit with the place and times of Jesus' birth.

Halos1n2Horns · #4 Sep 28, '09, 2:20 pm

this is a deep subject.

as knowing some of the theology of the Bible, the Magi did not reach jesus til he was 12 and in the temple ( gospel of John). Because they came from far distances to see This new messiah. There were also more then 3 wisemen that came to see him, we only recognize 3 because of the Gifts they brought. But there was one from almost every country. But like i said you would have to get into the history and theology of them.

Here is a site i found that is quite interseting hope you enjoy also a site where books maybe access for the magi and the star.

1. url for site of magi or astromers. is
http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issu...ings.of.orient.

2. For books you may want to check amazon ... ebay or other sites also
http://www.royalty.nu/history/religion/Magi.html

hope this helps

halos

catholic1seeks · #5 Sep 28, '09, 3:28 pm

Now I prefer to take the Nativity accounts literally, but some suggest that the wise men somehow symbolize the fact that Jesus was opening the Covenant to all men -- Jew and Gentile alike.

Evan · #6 Sep 28, '09, 3:40 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halos1n2Horns

this is a deep subject.

as knowing some of the theology of the Bible, the Magi did not reach jesus til he was 12 and in the temple ( gospel of John). Because they came from far distances to see This new messiah. There were also more then 3 wisemen that came to see him, we only recognize 3 because of the Gifts they brought. But there was one from almost every country. But like i said you would have to get into the history and theology of them.

Here is a site i found that is quite interseting hope you enjoy also a site where books maybe access for the magi and the star.

1. url for site of magi or astromers. is
http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issu...ings.of.orient.

2. For books you may want to check amazon ... ebay or other sites also
http://www.royalty.nu/history/religion/Magi.html

hope this helps

halos

The early historical accounts put the number between 2 and 12 wise men. They could have arrived anytime between his birth and 3 years (recall the holy innocents were 2yrs and less). I've never seen any accounts putting their arrival as late as 12 years!!!

Mintaka · #7 Sep 28, '09, 5:25 pm

God meets us where we are.

For example, if God were trying to warn you of something in a dream, He might choose to show you a stop sign. Stop signs wouldn't mean anything to a caveman or to some future person in the year 3000; but you'd get it right away. It wouldn't mean that stop signs were divinely ordained; it would just be a sign for your benefit.

God used superstitious pagan beliefs about astrology to alert the Magi to the birth of Jesus. That didn't mean that all their beliefs were correct, or that we should follow astrology. It just means that God is merciful and comes ahead to meet us.

By referencing the Magi along with Balaam's prophecy of the star in Israel, the unwilling pagan prophet Balaam is connected with more willing, good guy pagans.

In Israel, stars were always connected with angels. So it's not unusual that people following a star would meet up with angels.

**Church Militant** · #8 Sep 30, '09, 9:34 am

I have always read that there was some overlap and that they were astronomers though back then astrology was pretty common (I wonder if it is as common today?).

patrick457 · #9 Oct 1, '09, 3:10 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Church Militant

I have always read that there was some overlap and that they were astronomers though back then astrology was pretty common (I wonder if it is as common today?).

I'd just drop by and say: yes.

Back in those days, there tended to be an overlap in what we now call "science" and what we now think of as "superstition". In one example, ancient medicinal practices were a mix of remedies which may actually work with ones of more dubious/'ridiculous' nature and magical incantations or some other voodoo. In fact, it was only in the 17th century - during the 'Enlightenment' - that astrology and astronomy were finally considered to be two distinct disciplines.

L Ron Hubbub · #10 Oct 1, '09, 7:34 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by patrick457

I'd just drop by and say: yes.

Back in those days, there tended to be an overlap in what we now call "science" and what we now think of as "superstition". In one example, ancient medicinal practices were a mix of remedies which may actually work with ones of more dubious/'ridiculous' nature and magical incantations or some other voodoo. In fact, it was only in the 17th century - during the 'Enlightenment' - that astrology and astronomy were finally considered to be two distinct disciplines.

It's my understanding that astronomy actually grew out of astrology. Sky watchers needed better observations in order to make more "acurate" predictions. The observations eventually became an end in themselves, and astronomy matured as a science. Astrology became the carnival sideshow that it is today.

Meanwhile, Patrick, "dubious, ridiculous and magical" practices are alive and well in the age of the Internet. Just Google alternative medicine.

Athanasiy · #11 Oct 1, '09, 1:16 pm

what is interesting about the sky watchers , that even today they have the different to each other theories about the horoscopes.
For example , the Chinese astrologers would not agree with the ideas of the western astrologers , just because the systems are conflicting.
Astrology is extremely popular today as well.

People want to believe that they are born winners , and they do not mind to believe that they are born loosers.
The ''believe'' in some way , the impels and compels you , it causes the events to take place .
The astrology offers by its nature the ''fatalistic approach''.
Even looking at it from this way , it is totally opposite to the will of God !

Actually , what is interesting that the twins for example who born in the same time and place , should they have also the same destiny ?
This question probably should be asked at the thread '' ask the astrologyst ''

ProlifeMD · #12 Oct 2, '09, 5:56 am

Magi were Zoroastrian priests from Persia, modern Iran and Iraq. Zoroastrianism is is a monotheistic religion that includes a war between the good force created by the creator and the bad force but unlike Christianity, the bad force is not less, but more, powerful.

It was the state religion of the Persian Empire in the time of Jesus birth and the spread of Christianity. It was a capital offense, always enforced, to convert a Zoroastrain to Christianity and the persecutions of Christians in the Persian Empire were often more brutal and more widespread than in the Roman Empire. Chaldean Catholics come from this area.

Padrej · #13 Oct 3, '09, 8:59 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProlifeMD

Magi were Zoroastrian priests from Persia, modern Iran and Iraq. Zoroastrianism is is a monotheistic religion that includes a war between the good force created by the creator and the bad force but unlike Christianity, the bad force is not less, but more, powerful.

It was the state religion of the Persian Empire in the time of Jesus birth and the spread of Christianity. It was a capital offense, always enforced, to convert a Zoroastrain to Christianity and the persecutions of Christians in the Persian Empire were often more brutal and more widespread than in the Roman Empire. Chaldean Catholics come from this area.

Can you please cite where you got this tidbit of reference as it DOES NOT match up with any known Biblical Scholars that are worth their salt?
IT also runs contrary to what the church has historically taught on the matter. (see post 15)

jewells17 · #14 Oct 2, '09, 3:42 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Church Militant

I have always read that there was some overlap and that they were astronomers though back then astrology was pretty common (I wonder if it is as common today?).

I never thought so until I was fortunate enough to learn from this person on her website....www.christiananswersforthenewage.org and read Marcia's personal history and testimony. Also.....check out ALL the churches she has visited over the passed several years and the ones she will visit in the next year to try to wake young folks and others to the truth. Pray the rosary for Marcia and all who come to hear her talks.

AFISHN · #15 Oct 3, '09, 3:05 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thing

The wise men were pagan magi from the east; the magi were those spiritual leader types who might for example tell the future for their tribe by looking a a lambs liver or intestines etc., etc.

I wouldn't be so quick to trivalize the 'wise men".

I beleive they were first rate astronomers and they were looking for"something" in the skys.

It could be that they knew the date of birth of King David,and, through oral history and tradition,deduced that when the New Great King (of Israel) was to be born there would be the same exact configuration of stars/planets(although many,many years later).

When they saw that configuration queing up ,so to speak,they took off for Jersusalem,observing the stars or perhaps a triple conjunction of stars amnd/or planets.