Answering Christ Imitators' Questions on Catholicism

[benedictus2]

This is a branch off from the Tear Each Other Apart and Why are you Protestant threads.

Christ Imitator (henceforth to be refered to as CI ), since your questions and our discussion seem to be not in line with the above threads, I have set this up to answer your questions on the Catholic Church and to debate doctrinal points as you see fit.

This way we will our discussion will not be "off topic" as this is your topic/s.

[benedictus2]

From "Why are you Protestant thread"

Originally Posted by Christ Imitator

Thank you for your post. I suppose I will have to quit trying to learn about Catholicism on here, and will just have to teach people what I know on the Protestant side.

Don't quit. There are people here who will be more than happy to debate with you.

I don't believe that I am that uneducated about the Christian faith, and how I should be living out my life as a Christian. I may not know a lot about Catholocism, but, that's not a huge issue.

Probably not from your point of view. But if you look at the fact that for 1500 years there was only the Catholic Church and that the Catholic Church is the Church that Christ founded here on earth, then really it is quite a sizeable issue because it then goes into the realm of the will of God. What Has God willed regarding His Church as it is written in the Bible?

I will learn some about it by talking with Catholic friends from school, hopefully they will know at least some things that I do not. .

The ones here in the forum will probably be better informed Catholics than the ones that you will meet on the street. So it is indeed good, that God has led you this way.

I will agree that there is a lot more that I have to learn about the Lord, but so does every other person on this Earth.

Completely agree. We can never, ever learn everything about the Lord this side of eternity.

Again, in regards to "milk and food" I believe that I am quite familiar with the "real food.

Sure. There are people from any religion, denomination, church that are like this. People seem to think that acting good, and doing good things is what God is all about; and that is far from the truth. Sure, he likes to see us being respectufl to others, but it's about giving up some of the worldly possesions and giving in to what he has planned for our lives.

I give a qualified yes to this. The giving up of SOME of the worldly possesions does not quite cut it. The Lord requires our total submission, our total abandonment to His will. And for some that will entail giving up ALL of their worldly possesions as the likes of St Francis of Assisi has done.

[benedictus2]

From "Why are you Protestant" thread

Originally Posted by Christ Imitator

I believe as a follower of Jesus Christ that we are to live our lives as Christ did when he walked our Earth.

A fair enough conclusion but if we are to be real followers of Christ then we would believe everything that He says and follow everything that He says not just those that suit our current slant in theology.

Following Christ is not so much as living as He lived but living the way He wants us to live.

Followers of Christ are to take their crosses, to love as He loved.

I do not believe that all that hail marry, Lord's Prayer, cross over your heart, etc, is necessary at all.

Why not? Why do you think they are not necessary? What do you understand about the Hail Mary, what do you understand about making the sign of the Cross?

God wants us to live out a lifestyle that would resemble the "fruits of the spirit."

What are the fruits of the Spirit ? What are the lifestyles that are in conformity with these fruits?

don't believe he calls us to practice all these rituals.

What do you think these rituals mean?

{Rituals are for pagans, not for Christians.}

--And I strongly believe this.

The Jews had rituals. Their rituals are even prescribed by God. So do you think the Jews are pagans?

Jesus performed a ritual at the Last Supper. Would you call Jesus a pagan?

If you can give me Biblical references, or even where in the Bible that you would get the idea to practice all of these ritualistic (un-Biblical) traditions; I would love to read through it, thank-you.

Let us take one ritual at a time.
I presume you regard the Eucharist / Mass as a ritual. Well, read about the Lord's Supper.

[benedictus2]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christ Imitator

Very true, which is why I never claimed that. You also realize that the Bible could very well be just as true as the Quaran, right?

From an Atheists perspective yes.

No. I am asking why you think you should do that at all.

It wasn’t me who posted this but I think this was said in jest.

Wouldn't it be easier for you to prove to me that they are necessary? I see no where in the Bible that it mentions doing any of the things Catholics do; such as Hail Mary's.

Nope, because I am not the one disputing it. You are the one querying it so the burden of proof is on you.

A quick reply regarding the Hail Mary. Go to Luke. This is Elizabeths’s salutation when Mary visited her and John the Baptist lept in her womb.

I NEVER said that it was historically accurate in everything. I said that nothing has been proven inaccuarte.

In cases of myths there is no way of proving anything accurate because myths do not deal with accuracies. Some stories in the Bible are myths and some are historical.

There are different beliefs on how the Earth was started, but that doesn't mean that the Biblical belief in creation has been diproven.

If there are differing accounts in the Bible itself of the origin of the universe, then don’t you think we have to set out first which one is correct from our perspective before anyone could disprove it?

But, Jesus did NOT say that it's the way we SHOULD pray. He said:
"Pray, then, in this way (or "in this manner" {NKJV}). 'Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name...." {Matthew6:9 NASB} "in this way" that means it is an exapmle of how we should pray. I am not saying that reciting the Lord's prayer is a bad thing to do; however, it is not a very specific prayers, and I hear people use it all the time in very different situations.

NAB Matthew 6:9-10

9 "This is how you are to pray: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name,

And yes it is a very specific prayer. It is the most perfect prayer. If you are interested, the Pope has actually devoted a whole chapter on this prayer alone in his book “Jesus of Nazareth”. A great book.

If you like I can post bits and pieces of his explanations of the our father in another thread just for you.

That's like saying why did God bother putting us on the Earth; he should have just sent us to Heaven or Hell right away...I mean he already knows if we choose to follow his ways or not.

Not quite right but I won’t go into that now as predestination is a whole different kettle of fish best tackled on its own. You missed my point though. I was trying to show that the rule you made (that we should pray only personal, own words prayer) is precisely just that, your own rule.

Alright, I will do that for you. All you had to do was ask.


And, maybe saying that they are "pagan" was the wrong word, and I appologize.

• Catholics do not believe that Christ's death paid the full penalty for sin.

Only because as I have said before you do not know Catholic Doctrine. I would even venture to say you know almost zilch about Catholic doctrine.


Catholic doctrine never ever said that. But your idea of “penalty for sin” needs more elaboraton because your (possibly Calvinistic) concept is wrong with regards this aspect of salvation theology.

Thus the idea of purgatory. If they believed that, then there would be no reason for a purgatory. --If I am correct, in Catholicism, Purgatory is the place where those who are to enter Heaven must go in order to be "washed of their sins."

Purgatory as the name implies means purgation, to be purged of sin.

Explain this to me: I am presuming that you are some sort of “born again” Christian and you believe that once saved always saved.
So let’s say you have been “born again” so “washed clean, regenerated”, led an almost spotless life, but then you get overtaken by lust for this person and you commit sin again (raped someone) and in the process of raping someone was shot in the head by the police. What happens then, where do you go?

I will give you a better understanding of what the doctrine of purgatory really means on my next post.

What I don't understand is...if Jesus' blood was shed to "wash away our sins", then what is the necessity of Purgatory?

When we are baptized, all our sins (original and personal) are all washed away. If you should get hit by a car and die straight after, then you got straight to heaven.

But many commit sins again after baptism, hence purgatory.

This is one thing, the idea of a "between Heaven location", Purgatory is a pagan idea.

Nope. The very early Christians believed in purgatory. It is only protestant theology which is essentially truncated Christianity that did away with this doctrine. The Orthodox churches (though they have not defined this doctrine) also believe in it. This is incorporated in their doctine of Theosis, the process of deification.

Oh and BTW, CS Lewis (who is prostestant) believes in purgatory. Will post his thoughts on this later.

2. Catholics are idolatrous, they honor/worship Mary. Isn't one of the things Catholic say, something like: "Holy Mary, mother of God"?

We honor Mary. We do not worship her. And Mary is indeed Holy. She is now in heaven so she is Holy. And Mary IS the mother of God. Again, go to Luke.

[Scardinoz]

Interestingly, Martin Luther believed that veneration (honoring; not worshipping) of Mary was entirely Biblical.

Martin Luther and John Calvin both considered the literal Body and Blood of Christ to be the only possible interpretation of the Bible in regard to Communion.

[prodigalson12]

honoring; not worshipping of Mary is also what we Catholics believe

[Christ Imitator]

honoring; not worshiping of Mary is also what we Catholics believe

Alright, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I mean, she was given the opprotunity to give birth to Jesus Christ.

A quick reply regarding the Hail Mary. Go to Luke. This is Elizabeth's salutation when Mary visited her and John the Baptist lept in her womb.

So, if I read through the book of Luke, I should find in there why Catholics are into the "Hail Mary" thing? Could you give me a few chapters to narrow it down?

Some stories in the Bible are myths and some are historical.

And how exactly can you be sure you know which of them are true, and which are myths?
Also, why would the people who put the Bible together add mythical stories to the Bible; shouldn't they have been left out?

the Pope has actually devoted a whole chapter on this prayer alone in his book “Jesus of Nazareth”. A great book.

Thanks, I will add that to my list of books to read.
There are so many that I want to read. I will add this closer to the top of the list with the other religious/spiritual/christian books.

that we should pray only personal, own words prayer is precisely just that, your own rule.

Maybe that's true. But, I can think of no reason why God would want to hear us recite a prayer over to him exactly the way he taught it to us? "Good little Chrstian, you know how to memorize my special prayer" I believe that the idea of praying incorpirating all the elements of the Lord's Prayer is what Jesus intended for us to get from it when he taught it to his disciples. Such as telling God how great he is, thanksgiving, asking him to provide us with our daily needs, and asking for forgiveness.

So let’s say you have been “born again” so “washed clean, regenerated”, led an almost spotless life, but then you get overtaken by lust for this person and you commit sin again (raped someone) and in the process of raping someone was shot in the head by the police. What happens then, where do you go?

Sounds like something I hear from many skeptical atheist friends. Like I tell them, only the Lord knows our hearts, he knows whether we truly were living our lives dedicated to him, or if we were living our lives for selfish reasons. There's also that question about what happens to a (true) Christian who commits suicide before death? Do they go to Hell because they committed a sin right before they did, or go to Heaven? Same with a homosexual Christian. Somebody who struggles with homosexuality (meaning they've had sax with someone of the same gender) but they truly want to change their lifestyle for the Lord. Now that person has decided they are wrong, but the last thing they did before they died was have sex with someone of the same sex; never actually asked God to forgive them, but they had seriously been wanting to change for the Lord.

There are so many of these types of just before death stories. Non of us, whether Catholic or Protestant can say that the person goes to Heaven or Hell, because we don't know what was really going on in their heart. But, I believe that they are all able to go to Heaven if they had a real desire to change their ways for the Lord.

The very early Christians believed in purgatory. It is only protestant theology which is essentially truncated Christianity that did away with this doctrine. The Orthodox churches (though they have not defined this doctrine) also believe in it. This is incorporated in their doctrine of Theosis, the process of deification.

You said something about Baptism and purgatory in an earlier post, but I didn't use it as a quote here, sorry. I wanted to say though, that I don't believe that Baptism actually washes away sins. I do however believe that purgatory makes sense, but I still see no need for purgatory. I also know that whether or not I believe in purgatory, really does not matter; my personal belief does not make it more or less real. So, if it's real, that doesn't mean I am going to Hell for not believing in the existence Purgatory.

She is now in heaven so she is Holy. And Mary IS the mother of God. Again, go to Luke.

Two things I want to comment/ask about this.

1: Mother would mean that Mary gave birth to or raised God. Mary raised Jesus, who was filled with God (through his Holy Spirit/one-in the same), but she didn't actually give birth to God, because God is eternal. So, this doesn't really make sense to me.

2: So, anybody who is in Heaven would be considered "Holy?" I do not believe this. I believe that God is the only "Holy" one. What then would separate God from those other humans in Heaven if they are all Holy? Doesn't Holy mean perfect, I thought that God is the only perfect one.
People in Heaven are without sin, but they are still not perfect...at least that's what I thought.

[Scardinoz]

And how exactly can you be sure you know which of them are true, and which are myths?
Also, why would the people who put the Bible together add mythical stories to the Bible; shouldn't they have been left out?

The word "myth" in this context is probably better understood as 'extended parable'.

[mlldrl]

From Christ Imitator

Maybe that's true. But, I can think of no reason why God would want to hear us recite a prayer over to him exactly the way he taught it to us? "Good little Chrstian, you know how to memorize my special prayer" I believe that the idea of praying incorpirating all the elements of the Lord's Prayer is what Jesus intended for us to get from it when he taught it to his disciples. Such as telling God how great he is, thanksgiving, asking him to provide us with our daily needs, and asking for forgiveness.

I don’t mean to sound mean spirited but when I read comments like this I can’t help but think that people who truly think this way haven’t read much of the Old Testament. Or parts of the New Testament for that matter.

M

[prodigalson12]

And how exactly can you be sure you know which of them are true, and which are myths?
Also, why would the people who put the Bible together add mythical stories to the Bible; shouldn't they have been left out?

If the story, or as stated "myth" which isn't the best word for it in my book states a general person or situation, nothing specific, such as with the Prodigal son, it's the meaning of the story that matters more then if it's an example of a true account of one particular individual or circumstance. If it does state a specific name, or better yet, lineage towards that individual, it very much is real, and should not only be taken note of the story around it, it stands as a beakon within a real situation which is a more plain, direct approach to the story.

Why are there both, and why they are left in, Take the story of Noah and how very precise the ark was detailed as to it's construction. Do we ever really need to create another ark, do we have any practical use for the dimensions given? Not for most peoples purposes, but what it does is refute through the ages with those that argue that it's just a myth or story to learn from, rather it's a historical account we need to take particular note of and I'm sure those that want to expand upon the account, at least have something more to go with, so those dimensions give them clues to aid them in further research and study about the account. With the story of the prodigal son, there indeed could have been a real individual that it's talking about, but that is unimportant, the lesson and message it's conveying is what our focus should be upon because even though on the surface, read plainly, it's about how he learned his lesson and how his father took him back in and was very happy to do so, the message itself as you know is about how we stray from God and how turning back to him, he is very happy to take us back in.

It doesn't take a great deal of discernment to figure out which is based upon just the story or lesson and what's a true account of something that took place.

[Christ Imitator]

Followers of Christ are to take their crosses, to love as He loved.

Yes. I understamd this. When I chose the name "Christ imitator" I never meant to claim that I am ever going to live my life exactly as Jesus Christ did; but that I would imitate his actions and examples that he set for us in the Bible.
Such as his love for all people and his his forgiveness for people doing wrong against him; those are things that I want to live out in my life as well. I also understamd that there are plans that the Lord has for me in my life that are not the same as in Jesus' life. But one thing is very similar. Ministring to a fallen world, full of several types of people that all need to hear the word of God.

What are the fruits of the Spirit ? What are the lifestyles that are in conformity with these fruits?

The fruits of the spirit are: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. I believe that once we become Christians, we recieve the Holy Spirit as a gift from God. And, if we do not see ourselves living out these things in our life, then we should question whether or not we've really asked the Lord into our life, or if we just recited some prayer that was told to us in sunday school. "If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the spirit," Sure we all sin after we have been filled with the Holy Spirit; but we are more aware of sin, and we have a desire to repent of these sins, because we realize that those sinful things we do are wrong.

What do you think these rituals mean?

The rituals that I spoke of I believe are fine, but I don't see why they should be necessary, or how they will help to bring us closer to God? Reading his word, praying and listening to him speak to us, through our pastor's or priest's messages, etc; are all thigns that I think can bring us closer to the Lord. Those other things don't seem of any importance to me; but that may be beacause I am not aware of their full meaning? Or, that they are simply rituals and traditions that have been practiced by people for ever and passed down, hoping it would somehow help them?

The giving up of SOME of the worldly possesions does not quite cut it.

Yes, I completly agree with you on this; I sort of typed it out wrong. I believe that we should be willing to give up all of our worldy possesions, but in reality, this never happens. There are always things people hold onto/things they aren't willing to give up. Many times it's things that we do not even think about, because it's such a regual part of our life and we see nothing wrong with it.

[Christ Imitator]

The word "myth" in this context is probably better understood as 'extended parable'.

Thank you for clearing that up; makes more sense. I agree with that, there are many parables within the Bible. The actual message is what is of importance rather than whether or not the event actuaclly is something that took place in real life.

[prodigalson12]

Ministring to a fallen world, full of several types of people that all need to hear the word of God.

And who told you that you are supposed to be doing this? Look into the messages you are currently conveying now, are they from God or are they from your own human perspective? We live in a world that has many false prophets, many false teachers, they are all basing their so called instruction upon a worldly perspective, it is nothing from above at all and Christ warns us about them.... A teacher, minister, etc. is to be held accountable to a higher standard then the rest of us, take very particular note of that one, the reason why are many, but mainly, as a teacher, as a leader, your actions, good or bad will be followed by people you are in charge of, you don't get the luxury's the rest of us have, because as a leader, you are in charge of the flock, leading it into salvation or damnation depend upon your actions.

When a prophet makes a declaration, it is not him that is talking, it is God through him, if he in any way obscures it, he is then false, and this is where the danger lies and how the prophecy did not come from him, his discernment, any human element at all, this is also in line with each of our vocations, for example, a priest is called by God to become one, that one cannot just decide one day they want to be a priest and expect to be happy with the decision, it's not personal aspirations that get you there, it's the calling .,

[prodigalson12]

Also, just found out Christ Imitator is only a 17 year old child, just in case anybody wants to address this individual as an adult, they absolutely are not.

[benedictus2]

Originally Posted by prodigalson12

Also, just found out Christ Imitator is only a 17 year old child, just in case anybody wants to address this individual as an adult, they absolutely are not.

I would still address him as an adult. I think he is sincere and obviously loves our Lord very much.