A question about God's will and non-Catholic Christians

[justamoose89]

To my fellow Catholics: I believe that if something is God's will and we ask Him to let it come to pass, God will answer our prayer. My question is this: Is it God's will that all non-Catholic Christians convert to the Catholic faith? Or is it possible that God does not will that some Christians do not ever come home? I know many non-Catholic Christians that are amazing men and women of God. But does God see this as "good enough"? I believe that God does want all non-Catholic Christians to come back to the faith. But is it His will?

[davidv]

Originally Posted by justamoose89

To my fellow Catholics: I believe that if something is God's will and we ask Him to let it come to pass, God will answer our prayer. My question is this: Is it God's will that all non-Catholic Christians convert to the Catholic faith? Or is it possible that God does not will that some Christians do not ever come home? I know many non-Catholic Christians that are amazing men and women of God. But does God see this as "good enough"? I believe that God does want all non-Catholic Christians to come back to the faith. But is it His will?

Jesus then said to those Jews who believed in him, "If you remain in my word, you will truly be my disciples, 32and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." (John (NAB) 8:31-32)

The fulness of the Truth subsists in the Catholic Church. If God wills that we know the Truth then He wills all to be members of His Church.

[Nita]

You need to be a little clearer about what you mean by God's will. Do you mean what He "desires"?

[MarcoPolo]

The fullness of truth subsists indeed in the Catholic Church and it is the One True Church Christ founded. That being said, I can only think of one situation off-hand in which God may not "will" a specific individual to enter the Church. Take C.S. Lewis, for example. He is beloved among all Christians and came as close to Catholicism as he could without quite entering. Many posit that had he lived longer he would have entered the Church. Does him not being a Catholic render him more attractive to those anti-Catholics who would otherwise have not read his work? And does God use C.S. Lewis to draw others into the One Church? So in this brain exercise, the goal is still to draw souls into the Catholic Church. That would be the situation I could see God not willing a specific individual to enter fully. The question is was it God's will that C.S. Lewis be a "pointer" toward the Catholic Church for those who obstinately refuse to read the works of Catholics?

But I'm not omniscient enough to know if that's really His will.

[wisdomseeker]

Originally Posted by justamoose89

To my fellow Catholics: I believe that if something is God's will and we ask Him to let it come to pass, God will answer our prayer. My question is this: Is it God's will that all non-Catholic Christians convert to the Catholic faith? Or is it possible that God does not will that some Christians do not ever come home? I know many non-Catholic Christians that are amazing men and women of God. But does God see this as "good enough"? I believe that God does want all non-Catholic Christians to come back to the faith. But is it His will?

well, did not Jesus found a Church 2000 years ago? where do you think He would want people to be?

just because people are being misled out of the Church and refuse to enter in her, it doesnt mean it is God's will that they stay outside. they simply refuse to believe it.

i always compare this with the pharisees and their rejection of Jesus teachings. they were not excused and neither are those who refuse to listen to the Church. i dont care how good they are.

[yinandyang]

The question posted in the original thread is probably more complex than a simple yes or no answer.

First of all, we need to look at some Scriptural references as well as some references found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church for a basis of coming up with a suitable answer to this question:

John 17:20 "I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,

John 17:21 so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me.

John 17:22 And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one,

The verses are a part of Jesus' prayer right before He entered into the Garden of Gethsemane. He prayed that we, His followers may be one as He and the Father are one. In other words, he wanted us to all be a part of one body, that is His body the Church, without any division. Events such as the Great Schism and the Protestant Reformation have divided Christ's body to a certain extent and have resulted in Christians no longer being one in the sense that these verses allude to. The Catholic Church has remained one though, throughout the centuries, so Christ's prayer has been fulfilled within Her unity. However our brothers and sisters in Christ who no longer adhere to the faith and the Church have, unfortunately, damaged and fractured Christianity. Thus their returning to the one, true, holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church would be God's will for everyone who is a follower of Christ, for only within the Catholic Church do we find the fullness of truth, the fullness of God's salvific plan for all of mankind.

We can also turn to another section of Sacred Scripture for an example of this:

Ephesians 4:4 one body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call;

Ephesians 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

Here we see Saint Paul telling us that there is to be one body of Christ and one Christian faith, not a broken seperated body, and not many different and varied faiths with only core beliefs in common (if one can call any Christian belief core in relation to another Christian belief that is not considered core). The only Christian body that fits this criteria is the Catholic Church as well, unchanged and unbroken, within Herself, since the time of Christ.

Now let us take a look at what the Catechism of the Catholic Church has to say:

820 "Christ bestowed unity on his Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time."277 Christ always gives his Church the gift of unity, but the Church must always pray and work to maintain, reinforce, and perfect the unity that Christ wills for her. This is why Jesus himself prayed at the hour of his Passion, and does not cease praying to his Father, for the unity of his disciples: "That they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us, . . . so that the world may know that you have sent me."278 The desire to recover the unity of all Christians is a gift of Christ and a call of the Holy Spirit.279

277 UR 4 # 3.
278 ⇒ Jn 17:21; cf. ⇒ Heb 7:25.
279 Cf. UR 1.

822 Concern for achieving unity "involves the whole Church, faithful and clergy alike."287 But we must realize "that this holy objective - the reconciliation of all Christians in the unity of the one and only Church of Christ - transcends human powers and gifts." That is why we place all our hope "in the prayer of Christ for the Church, in the love of the Father for us, and in the power of the Holy Spirit."288

287 UR 5.
288 UR 24 # 2.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P29.HTM

Here we can see that the Magesterium teaches us that all Christians are called to be a part of the Catholic Church, even those who have broken away throughout the centuries. We are all to be one as Jesus is one with the Father, we are all to be Catholic. This is not meant to offend our brothers and sisters in Christ, but to point the way to the fullness of truth so as to help them come to a closer and more perfect union with the Holy Trinity as well as to obtain salvation, what God Himself wishes for them.

(Continuted in next thread)

[yinandyang]

(Continued from previous thread)

This brings us to the next point that needs to be made. For all of this, those who are followers of Christ but are not yet members of the Catholic Church are still our brothers and sisters in the Lord. We must not forget this either, and must show our love to them as such. Here are a few more references that may come in handy:

Luke 9:50 Jesus said to him, "Do not prevent him, for whoever is not against you is for you."

Wounds to unity

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ's Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers .... All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

269 UR 3 # 1.
270 Cf. ⇒ CIC, can. 751.
271 Origen, Hom. in Ezech. 9, 1: PG 13, 732.
272 UR 3 # 1.
273 LG 8 # 2.
274 UR 3 # 2; cf. LG 15.
275 Cf. UR 3.
276 Cf. LG 8.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P29.HTM

These references show us that we must show respect and love toward our seperated brethren, as this is what the Lord commands of us. They are, in fact, in an imperfect union with the Catholic Church and with us, by being followers of Christ.

In conclusion, God does wish that all Christians believe in and become members of the one, holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, but we must also remember that He desires the salvation of all men as well, and does everything He can to accomplish this goal, even if it means working in union with people, outside of the Catholic Church, who are His followers but who believe in their hearts it is wrong for them to join the Church. What we need to do is to instruct them on God's truth and pray for them, but above all else show them the love of Christ as Catholics.

I hope that helps.

May God bless you and Mary keep you in her prayers always.

YinandYang

[justamoose89]

Yinandyang: Thank you! That was excellent!

[onenow1]

Originally Posted by yinandyang

(Continued from previous thread)

This brings us to the next point that needs to be made. For all of this, those who are followers of Christ but are not yet members of the Catholic Church are still our brothers and sisters in the Lord. We must not forget this either, and must show our love to them as such. Here are a few more references that may come in handy:

Luke 9:50 Jesus said to him, "Do not prevent him, for whoever is not against you is for you."

Wounds to unity

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ's Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers .... All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276


These references show us that we must show respect and love toward our seperated brethren, as this is what the Lord commands of us. They are, in fact, in an imperfect union with the Catholic Church and with us, by being followers of Christ.

In conclusion, God does wish that all Christians believe in and become members of the one, holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, but we must also remember that He desires the salvation of all men as well, and does everything He can to accomplish this goal, even if it means working in union with people, outside of the Catholic Church, who are His followers but who believe in their hearts it is wrong for them to join the Church. What we need to do is to instruct them on God's truth and pray for them, but above all else show them the love of Christ as Catholics.

Yin ! Jesus gave St.Peter and the Church the power to bind and loose, this does not mean Jesus can't work independently. Remember St.Paul ! All things will be fullfilled by God.

God Bless
onenow1

[aspacia]

Originally Posted by wisdomseeker

well, did not Jesus found a Church 2000 years ago? where do you think He would want people to be?

just because people are being misled out of the Church and refuse to enter in her, it doesnt mean it is God's will that they stay outside. they simply refuse to believe it.

i always compare this with the pharisees and their rejection of Jesus teachings. they were not excused and neither are those who refuse to listen to the Church. i dont care how good they are.

I blog on numerous other sites, and on the BBC Judaism site they claim Jesus was a pharisee and a rabbi, no prophet.

[to seek]

Originally Posted by wisdomseeker

well, did not Jesus found a Church 2000 years ago? where do you think He would want people to be?

just because people are being misled out of the Church and refuse to enter in her, it doesnt mean it is God's will that they stay outside. they simply refuse to believe it.

i always compare this with the pharisees and their rejection of Jesus teachings. they were not excused and neither are those who refuse to listen to the Church. i dont care how good they are.

I believe Jesus wants people to believe in Him, obey His Ways, and save others from final damnation. Does it really matter what Christian Church people go to hear His Word? I think not.
Are people really being mislead out of The Church? Maybe it is more than a Church people are looking for. Maybe they are seeking Gods love in action, not just a set of dogmas etc etc. Have you not thought about that side rather than jump down because people query the truth in all its forms?
You mistake pharisees and rejection of Christ for people who worship in other Churches. Two different things. A pharisee rejects the truth of Jesus, His Lordship, His death and Resurrection and love the law only. To go to another Church does not mean a person rejects Christ. All Catholics should remember this, because noone is judged on whether they went to a Catholic Church or not. They, like you and me, are judged for our sin'
I hope you dont jump down on my throat but rather consider God created man, and He knew us better than to try and fit us all into one mold, and that includes worship style.
Just another perspective from a fellow believer, to seek.

[poetryforjesus]

Originally Posted by to seek

because noone is judged on whether they went to a Catholic Church or not. They, like you and me, are judged for our sin'
.

I agree with you we will be judged according to how we have lived our lives, and that includes how much grace we have individually received and how we have responded to those graces. Judgement will be individual and only God knows how He has worked in our lives and how we have responded to His efforts.

If we take that into perspective, I believe Catholics will actually be judged under more strict terms because they have been given the fullness of God's grace. God reserves absolutely nothing from them, while other non-catholic Christians who do not have the fullness of truth may have lived a more exemplary life based on the graces God has given them through their own religious background.

All in all, God will be absolutely just in His judgment. He knows everything He gives us and knows exactly how we treat His graces and respond to His love. So when each is judged, no one will say God is unfair.

[ThereseRose]

I also wonder are people being led out of the church or chose to leave because they are seeking spiritual fellowship and connection to their church family. I acknowledge that we, Catholics, have been given the fullness of His truths yet we can get so caught up with the politics, selfish egos, rules and regulations, and dogmas. We often forget that society has pushed God out and replaced him with a narcistic, self-centered attitude, and materialistic viewpoint. I believe that generally, people no longer think that absolute anything exists any longer. I know personally, I can easily get caught up with any of this stuff. Most importantly, when I turn to God, often every day, and surrender my will to him, I feel his peace. I am reminded of his graces and Love that will guide me to love as he wants me to. I wonder if it is in this embracing him intimately and surrender our hearts and our wills, we will acknowledge and experience his personal existence and actions in our lives. I truly believe we cannot live out our lives on an intellectual level but invite God in personally to help guide our wills and actions. As I am writing this, I am reminding myself that I need to participate and help build a loving community in the church. Is it God's will for us to seek outside the church? I think, God will reach each one of us where we are at.where ever we are. God Bless, Therese
This goes alongside the sacraments, receiving the eucharist as often as we can, and abiding the teachings of the Church. Actually, I think, once we truly love God with our whole being including our hearts, minds and souls and love each other everything else will work hand in hand.

[Onetime1979]

This may sound like a silly question but, what exactly is Roman Catholic Church Tradition? What traditions does the Church have that we (non-Catholics) don't have? I guess from how I see it, from my experience in the Christian church I attend, (Calvary Chapel) we keep up with the (I guess you can call it traditions) traditions found in the bible. Are we lacking anything? As far as I can tell and from my experience, the Lord Christ Jesus, the One who has begun a good work in us and is faithful to complete it, is in our hearts and minds. His Holy Ghost confirms to us that His words and the teachings of His apostles are true. Now while it may true that the Roman Catholic Church started in the year 33 A.D. (I don't know, since I've never really looked into it) the Lord has never stopped working and bringing people to Himself. Haven't you read the testimonies of ex-Muslims that have received Jesus Christ and believed in Him? According to their testimonies (Voice of the martyrs www.persecution.com) many are having visions of Jesus Christ and giving their lives over to Him. Remember also the parable of the workers in the vineyard that Jesus taught us. Matthew 20:1-16

[davidv]

Originally Posted by Onetime1979

This may sound like a silly question but, what exactly is Roman Catholic Church Tradition?

From the Catechism

81 "Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit."42

"And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching."43 82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."

What traditions does the Church have that we (non-Catholics) don't have? I guess from how I see it, from my experience in the Christian church I attend, (Calvary Chapel) we keep up with the (I guess you can call it traditions) traditions found in the bible. Are we lacking anything? As far as I can tell and from my experience, the Lord Christ Jesus, the One who has begun a good work in us and is faithful to complete it, is in our hearts and minds. His Holy Ghost confirms to us that His words and the teachings of His apostles are true. Now while it may true that the Roman Catholic Church started in the year 33 A.D. (I don't know, since I've never really looked into it) the Lord has never stopped working and bringing people to Himself. Haven't you read the testimonies of ex-Muslims that have received Jesus Christ and believed in Him? According to their testimonies (Voice of the martyrs www.persecution.com) many are having visions of Jesus Christ and giving their lives over to Him. Remember also the parable of the workers in the vineyard that Jesus taught us. Matthew 20:1-16

In Catholic language, the is only one Tradition, see CCC quote above.