The Pope Never Apologized for the Church!

marszale · #1 Apr 5, '05, 11:04 am

Many news articles and op/ed pieces are praising Pope John Paul II for apologizing on behalf of the Church for its anti-Semitism, oppression of women, treatment of other faiths, etc. I seriously doubt this ever happened, since the Church herself can never sin, only the individuals within the Church. I understand that the Pope made various statements of regret or even of apology for the actions of individual Catholics, but I don't think he ever once said that the Church was to blame. Is this driving anyone else crazy, too?

cursillo255 · #2 Apr 5, '05, 11:07 am

I think you may be correct. I've only heard apologies for "catholics" and not the Church per se.

Me_and_My_Tribe · #3 Apr 5, '05, 4:56 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by cursillo255

I think you may be correct. I've only heard apologies for "catholics" and not the Church per se.

I think the difference may be in what was said (by the Pope, leader of the Church) and what was heard (by non-Catholics). If the Pope was apologizing for something, as non-Catholics, we presume he is speaking for the church as a whole, and view it as a sum of it's people as opposed to the institution (an entity in and of itself) that it is. Does that make any sense?

MMT

edited due to lack of "e".

Lovez4God · #4 Apr 5, '05, 7:16 pm

I had written a thread on 'the Church cannot sin!' sometime ago. Yes, that's what I've been saying. The medias are interpreting it wrong, hence, the secular society lessens the role of the Church because of her 'apologies.' I'm sure the Church is apologizing that it could have been better, not that she was wrong.
Pope Pius XII was a strong pious pope. No better pope could have fitted for that time in history. He was a strong diplomatic leader also. Of course, the Church never condoned anti-semiticism. During that time, the Church was much more concerned with evangelization around those troubled areas. The Church had to be careful for her procedural diplomatic issues or statements.
The Vatican was working out probable solutions and agreements with Germany during that time for the Church in Germany! The Nazis did enter the Vatican but peacefully in respect for the Church and her property. Pius XII will always be remembered for working vigorously to end the evils of that time.

Ghosty · #5 Apr 5, '05, 11:17 pm

I've heard his exact wording in these cases, and it was always apologizing for the acts of Christians or of Catholics, but never apologizing for the Church. In fact, I believe in certain circumstances he apologized for Catholics not living up to the Church's true calling.

He was rapping us (Catholics) on the nose for not being Christ-like, not saying that the Church was not the truth of Christ.

Maccabees · #6 Apr 6, '05, 1:20 am

You know the United States and European media didn't write anything denouncing the rise of Hitler either and they had armed forces. The vatican was surrounded by the Nazis as Rome was taken over by them. The Vatican was housing thousands of Jews at the time should Pope Pius stir up more trouble and tempt the Nazis to drop the bomb on the Vatican? I mean what optiond did the man have. He ran an underground railroad for Jews and spoke out against the Nazis in an indirect way. He did all he could given the circumstances. WHere was the NY times on Hitler before Pear Harbor. They were encouraging America to stay out of the war instead of exposing the evile of facist Japan and Nazi Germany. The hypocrisy never stops.

Lovez4God · #7 Apr 6, '05, 10:28 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maccabees

You know the United States and European media didn't write anything denouncing the rise of Hitler either and they had armed forces. The vatican was surrounded by the Nazis as Rome was taken over by them. The Vatican was housing thousands of Jews at the time should Pope Pius stir up more trouble and tempt the Nazis to drop the bomb on the Vatican? I mean what optiond did the man have. He ran an underground railroad for Jews and spoke out against the Nazis in an indirect way. He did all he could given the circumstances. WHere was the NY times on Hitler before Pear Harbor. They were encouraging America to stay out of the war instead of exposing the evile of facist Japan and Nazi Germany. The hypocrisy never stops.

Taking all that into consideration, why do you think Pius XII was considered "Pastor angelicus." It all makes sense now. I'm sure he knew what he had to do and what his role was. Sad, it would only take half century for people to realize.

Richardols · #8 Apr 5, '05, 11:07 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by marszale

Many news articles and op/ed pieces are praising Pope John Paul II for apologizing on behalf of the Church for its anti-Semitism, oppression of women, treatment of other faiths, etc. I seriously doubt this ever happened, since the Church herself can never sin, only the individuals within the Church.

A fine distinction. His apologies were mostly interpreted as being on behalf of the Church, a natural presumption as he is the Head of the Church on earth.

The apologies, however, as delivered, were finely crafted as to refer only to the perpetrators of the sins, not to the Church.

marszale · #9 Apr 5, '05, 2:14 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richardols

A fine distinction. His apologies were mostly interpreted as being on behalf of the Church, a natural presumption as he is the Head of the Church on earth.

The apologies, however, as delivered, were finely crafted as to refer only to the perpetrators of the sins, not to the Church.

Good, I'm glad to hear it! But you can see how it rankles me that special effort was put forth to preserve the sanctity of the Church and put blame where it belongs, only to have the ignorant trumpet these statements as admission of the Church's sinfulness.

I understand it's a fine distinction most non-Catholics won't understand, and maybe I need some thicker skin!

**Ani Ibi** · #10 Apr 5, '05, 11:12 am

It has driven me slightly crazing listening to Pope Pius XII being libelled.

800 000 jews were saved directly as a result of Pius12's instructions to clergy. 4000 were given santuary in the Vatican houses alone. ID and travel papers were 'forged' in the Vatican for jews. Many clergy lost their lives helping Jews. After the War, the Chief Rabbi was so convicted of the sacrifice of Catholics for Jews during the War, that he converted to Catholicism.

When JPII apologized for not having done enough for Jews, I think he expresses the same sentiment that Schindler did. That any Jew lost to the Nazis was one too many.

Pius12 could not have been more vocal because the Nazis would have marched into the Vatican and shut it down and many more lives would have been lost.

Hey, but let's not confuse the secular press with facts. In any case, let us continue the healing with our big brothers, the Jewish people. That is more worthwhile than arguing with the unheeding media.

Brad · #11 Apr 5, '05, 11:16 am

When will the media apologize for it's sins which the Chuch has been combatting for approximately 2,000 years?

marszale · #12 Apr 5, '05, 2:15 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad

When will the media apologize for it's sins which the Chuch has been combatting for approximately 2,000 years?

No doubt!

marszale · #13 Apr 5, '05, 2:17 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ani Ibi

It has driven me slightly crazing listening to Pope Pius XII being libelled.

800 000 jews were saved directly as a result of Pius12's instructions to clergy. 4000 were given santuary in the Vatican houses alone. ID and travel papers were 'forged' in the Vatican for jews. Many clergy lost their lives helping Jews. After the War, the Chief Rabbi was so convicted of the sacrifice of Catholics for Jews during the War, that he converted to Catholicism.

When JPII apologized for not having done enough for Jews, I think he expresses the same sentiment that Schindler did. That any Jew lost to the Nazis was one too many.

Pius12 could not have been more vocal because the Nazis would have marched into the Vatican and shut it down and many more lives would have been lost.

Hey, but let's not confuse the secular press with facts. In any case, let us continue the healing with our big brothers, the Jewish people. That is more worthwhile than arguing with the unheeding media.

That is so cool that the Chief Rabbi converted! Can you tell us more about this remarkable story?

**Ani Ibi** · #14 Apr 5, '05, 4:11 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by marszale

That is so cool that the Chief Rabbi converted! Can you tell us more about this remarkable story?

Google Sir Martin Gilbert's book The Righteous.

And here are a few links:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/.../piusdef2.html

http://www.catholicanswers.net/libra...ECTED_JEWS.asp

wabrams · #15 Apr 6, '05, 7:28 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ani Ibi

Pius12 could not have been more vocal because the Nazis would have marched into the Vatican and shut it down and many more lives would have been lost.

You know, I've always wondered about that. But if that is true, would it not invalidate that in Mathew it says even Hell could not prevail against the Church?