How Should Christians Approach Islam and Muslims?

[dzheremi]

Continued from the "Catholic or Orthodox" thread...

Originally Posted by GaryTaylor

So what "is" the solution? All that does is assess the situation. So how should we resolve conflict with no conversation.

Mind you there two aspects now, one is Islam is both political/religious. Christianity is just religious period. So what do they do?

I do not believe we need a "solution" with non-Christian religions, or that seeking a solution is necessarily even advisable. Or, rather, my idea of a solution is one in which each community can follow its own faith without disturbing or harming any other. To the extent that this is possible, this is what is already practiced among various Christian churches. Islam's character makes me question whether a similar state of lasting peace and equilibrium can be achieved with Islam. In fact, I do not think it is, and I think the examples to the contrary are context-dependent in a way that makes me very uncomfortable (e.g., the popular idea that Christians and Muslims lived together in Lebanon in peace for many years before the civil war seems to be true...if you ignore the Ottoman-backed massacres of the 1840s-1860s, the brutal way that the jizya tax was extracted from the Christians of Mt. Lebanon, etc). This is not true peace. This is true amnesia, a "forced peace"/temporary truce, which is all Islam has ever trafficked in.

[Wesley7]

A Christian would probably talk about His crucifixion,burial and resurrection and it would begin a dialogue concerning what is said in the Quran in comparison with the Bible. I've seen it happen on another forum. It is probably a heated subject of debate, whether Christ was crucified or not, I think in particular to what Muslims actually believe their Quran says happened.

[dzheremi]

Bluegoat:

Before I answer any of your specific questions, I need to apologize for having confused the "Catholic or Orthodox" thread with this one. That's what all the mentions of interfaith prayer are about. Not an effort to set up a straw man argument, but a genuine confusion and mistake about the content of the thread, as there are so many here that cover the same ground and I do sometimes get them confused when they are near each other or I have multiple notifications for the same threads. My apologies.

It is inaccurate to say that Islam has a different God.

I do not think that it is inaccurate.

In and of itself accuracy is important. People ask - often to try to support some agenda) - but we don't answer based on what would be most convenient for our own agenda, which seems to be what you are suggesting.

Huh? What are you saying I'm suggesting?

The second is that small inaccuracies like that can lead to larger ones. Saying that Islam worships a wholly different God is connected to some rather interesting, and I would say clearly hetrodox, religious views.

Heterodox or Orthodox? Because I can find many Orthodox sources on interfaith relations that say exactly what I have said. I know from having asked them that the non-Chalcedonian Orthodox do not support this idea that Islam somehow worships the true God. I'm fairly certain that the Chalcedonian Orthodox agree, if not down to the man, at least as a general policy when it comes to potential confrontations with Christians who profess other ideas (like the Roman Catholic communion).

And thirdly, in many cases we may actually be asked to deal with Muslim groups in various ways. In some cases we might have to refuse, other cases it might be appropriate, and others might be unclear. Is it ok to share a worship space in a hospital chaplaincy where space is at a premium? Can we be involved with an interfaith soup kitchen in our neighbourhood? What do we do about a problem with interfaith violence where we live? If we don't have a clear idea what our relation to non-Christians is, it can be difficult to answer such questions.

I'm trying to find a way to answer this that doesn't sound like I'm being flippant...really, I think you're making great points here, but they seem like they would be better directed at the Catholic Church, with its CCC 841 that has caused so many problems for Catholics and ex-Catholics, than to me. I would hope that I am not the one who is being unclear about non-Christians! And I hope it is obvious that I am not trying to set down any sort of ironclad rule about not being involved in any aspect of life with a non-Christian, because that is tantamount to not living anywhere outside of a monastery in the desert. I don't think I'm cut out for that. Most people aren't.

There is no "other God".

I absolutely agree. Hence, as I wrote, Islam does not worship God. There is no other God but God (hey...that sounds familiar!), and Islam does not worship Him.

Do you think that there is no such thing as natural religion? Do you think Paul was wrong when he said any man could come to know God through reason? Or that he was not serious when he said the Greeks had been unknowingly worshiping the true God? Or that Augustine was incorrect in thinking the neoplatonists had correctly identified God, or that his mystical vision as a Platonist was real? Do you think modern, or ancient, Jews worship a different God?

I'm not sure what you mean by "natural religion". I think reason can help us to know God (I am not an anti-intellectual), but it is inadequate if it is the sole means by which we seek Him. I believe it is possible to unknowingly worship the true God, but that any Muslim who does so must do so outside of Islam (either knowingly outside or unknowingly outside of it), because as I've written before: Islam does not worship God.

Take for instance, our beloved brother from Saudi Arabia, Sam. Here is a man who has truly found God in Christ, and no one can say that his Muslim identity diminishes his joy or the invaluable nature of his discovery. Just the same, he himself recognizes that he is Muslim in the flesh only, meaning that he is effectively practicing his Christian spirituality outside of the bounds of Islam. According to his profile, his soul is Christian. I believe (and pray, and hope) that there are many such "Muslims" in the Islamic world with Christian souls. Again, it is not right to use them as an example of how "Muslims" worship the true God, because they are not doing so as Islam tells them to in the first place.

Or to take an analogous situation from my own life, it is possible to desire Orthodoxy without realizing that this is what you are looking for. I do not claim to be one such person, but I have read several accounts of former Catholic priests or bishops who convert to Orthodoxy after having been shocked that they in fact hold Orthodox views, not Catholic ones. God works in mysterious ways, no?

Quote:
This reminds me a bit of the closed communion thread we had a little while ago. Do you recall that one?
I didn't read the thread, but I tend to favour closed communion.

Also,I realize you live in a place where interfaith relations stink, on many levels. I don't. Interfaith relations here are overall good, including with Muslims. I don't think that experience is less true or valid than yours, if we are basing our actions here on our experiences.

I do not see what this has to do with anything. I did not write anything about where I live, and the whole of any faith is more than the actions of a given population within it. As a Maronite poster once put it here: "Islam is not your peaceful neighbor who doesn't know how to use a gun".

[GaryTaylor]

Oh no my friend, there must be a constant effort to come to terms thus arrive at a solution. We can't live in a civil society any other way.

Listen, if you live across the street from me, I don't care what you do in your home. As long as you don't bother me and impose you will on others to act as you do? I have no issue with what you do.

But thats not what is happening. Put the religion away. The behavior, the behavior is the issue. When Islam grows in population it then thinks its OK to impose their will on mankind. Thats the problem and that needs to be constantly addressed. Its not you can live there and I here, and when your family grows bigger than mine, then mine becomes slaves? I don't think so. We can cut that off out immediatly, and we need not travel another step on that path. So there must be a solution.

I have little concern to to whom you pray. Really don't care who your God is. But I do care how you act around me. You can role out your little rug and pray to whomever you chose. But when you start talking violence and stonings and this and that. Well no-ones trying to hear it. The mob mentality and power in numbers I'm familiar with all Islams behaviors. And the "behavior" let me say that again the "behavior" is the issue. I don't want to talk about Islams God, I don't care about that. The "behavior" I do want to talk about, daily. Every day we need to bring that abomination to their face.

Then, then when you begin to realize your behavior isn't as cool as you throught it was, then you can begin to change it. As long as you "think" its OK to behave the way you do, because your "religion" gives the behavior permission? We have a problem which need be addressed.

This is where I'm at, right here at this point. Make no mistake about it. I see the religion as a facade. The religion is not what they are, they are human beings, people. Dress, cry, feel and die just like you. And its apparent that is as far as we need to go to start this conversation. You can have your religion, "after" you learn how to act.

And I'll give you your God is the same, or not, I don't care, I just don't care about that. Now what about about the behavior?

How many times have your heard those conversations here? Thats a lesson in ignorance if I ever seen one. Mary is this, Jesus is that, the Trinity is this or that. Please, we can re-visit that after the homicidal tendancys are corrected.

[Jehoshua]

In my opinion

---

A christian should approach islam as a false religion corrupted irrevocably with error, but with points of truth within the greater whole that are worthy of acknowledgement and respect.

---

A christian should approach a muslim on an individual basis, as depending on the person the best manner of interaction would vary.

An example would be those few muslims who are moderate in the western sense where a dialogue would be the best option (with the intent of being an exemplar of truth of course, no theological kumbaya here), compared to say a fundamentalist where the best option is to stand firm and never capitulate to their corruption and if neccesary fight against them (either metaphorically in a non-violent manner [say against proposals to implement sharia], or in some rare cases physically in the larger scheme of things within the criterion of a just war [like the crusades]).

(On the crusades, they were a response to centuries of muslim agression and the apologies made were to the eastern christians who due to non-religious factors were betrayed by certain secular forces, to the despair of the pope at the time and of those in the present era.)

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by dzheremi

Before I answer any of your specific questions, I need to apologize for having confused the "Catholic or Orthodox" thread with this one. That's what all the mentions of interfaith prayer are about.

No problem - I was a bit confused about what you were getting at.

Heterodox or Orthodox? Because I can find many Orthodox sources on interfaith relations that say exactly what I have said. I know from having asked them that the non-Chalcedonian Orthodox do not support this idea that Islam somehow worships the true God. I'm fairly certain that the Chalcedonian Orthodox agree, if not down to the man, at least as a general policy when it comes to potential confrontations with Christians who profess other ideas (like the Roman Catholic communion).

I don't know a huge amount about the OO.

While I know some EO who would agree with the claim that Islam worships a different God, most I have spoken to would either disagree or be agnostic on the issue.

I agree that they are generally very conservative about interfaith and ecumenical endeavors.

However, the other group that makes the claim that Islam worships a different God are fundamentalists, and they have some very heterodox, related beliefs.

I'm trying to find a way to answer this that doesn't sound like I'm being flippant...really, I think you're making great points here, but they seem like they would be better directed at the Catholic Church, with its CCC 841 that has caused so many problems for Catholics and ex-Catholics, than to me....

I think I was only saying here that there is good reason to consider carefully the relation of ourselves with non-Christian, and other Christian groups.

I absolutely agree. Hence, as I wrote, Islam does not worship God. There is no other God but God (hey...that sounds familiar!), and Islam does not worship Him.

And yet there are a number of true things they recognize about the Divine - the fact that they recognize there is a Divine as a start. There is not some other source of all that they are talking about!

I'm not sure what you mean by "natural religion". I think reason can help us to know God (I am not an anti-intellectual), but it is inadequate if it is the sole means by which we seek Him. I believe it is possible to unknowingly worship the true God, but that any Muslim who does so must do so outside of Islam (either knowingly outside or unknowingly outside of it), because as I've written before: Islam does not worship God.

Yes, natural religion is the conclusions about God that develop in the absence of special revelation.

This is true about individuals, but it is also true when they organize it into a system, teach it to their children, or offer worship as a group.

So I would say, that insofar as Islam teaches true things about God, they are worshiping God. And I would say it is done within Islam. Compare that to a animist, for example, who's understanding of God is much less like God than that of a Muslim. It is to some extent by being taught by their communities that they have a better or worse conception of God. Or a Mormon, a more complicated problem, because although he has an idea of Christ, he has a much less Christian understanding of God than even a Muslim.

It seems according to your method of thinking, we would have to say all three are in the same position with relation to orthodoxy (or lack thereof).

Take for instance, our beloved brother from Saudi Arabia, Sam...

I think it is true that many people manage, on their own, to go beyond what their religion gives them. I think this is often unconscious too. I know Muslims for example who have very little to do with the more violent and nasty aspects of Islam - they don't see them there, and they just don't relate to them. Part of the reason they don't see them, IMO, is that they have a connection with God as love, and so interpret their own religion in light of that experience. So I certainly think that happens. Sometimes I see the opposite among people too.

Or to take an analogous situation from my own life, it is possible to desire Orthodoxy without realizing that this is what you are looking for. I do not claim to be one such person, but I have read several accounts of former Catholic priests or bishops who convert to Orthodoxy after having been shocked that they in fact hold Orthodox views, not Catholic ones. God works in mysterious ways, no?

Sure, I have found much the same thing you have. But I think that is precisely what is happening in non-Christian religions. People are looking for God, and to some extent they find him, because God has revealed himself in our hearts and in creation. That is why we see basic similarities in most religions. But because they haven't got special revelation, they miss many things, and because they haven't got the protection of the Church, error creeps in (human or even diabolical error). So the truth is there, but it is mixed with error. Can they be saved by those religions? Well, they are saved by Christ. In so far as their religion teaches truth, it can help them, and in so far as it helps them lead a life that aids in their own relationship to God, it may help. In so much as it teaches error, it tends to hinder.

the whole of any faith is more than the actions of a given population within it. As a Maronite poster once put it here: "Islam is not your peaceful neighbor who doesn't know how to use a gun".

I am not sure if I can agree with the bolded in this context. Why do bad Muslims count more than good ones? If we look at Christians over space and time, do they count as a neighbour who can't use a gun (or a sword)?

[Mickey]

Originally Posted by Bluegoat

While I know some EO who would agree with the claim that Islam worships a different God, most I have spoken to would either disagree or be agnostic on the issue .

Most laity and clergy I know would say that Islam's god is different. Have you talked to many Orthodox about this? Many clergy?

Originally Posted by Bluegoat

And yet there are a number of true things they recognize about the Divine - the fact that they recognize there is a Divine as a start. There is not some other source of all that they are talking about!

Sects such as the Self Realization Fellowship (followers of Paramahansa Yogananda) constantly talk about "the divine". But it is alien to our understanding and carries a strange spirit.

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by Mickey

Most laity and clergy I know would say that Islam's god is different. Have you talked to many Orthodox about this? Many clergy?

A fair number of Orthodox, few clergy (like, one.) But just to be clear - I said a different God, not just "different" Islam clearly has different ideas about God than Christians do.

Sects such as the Self Realization Fellowship (followers of Paramahansa Yogananda) constantly talk about "the divine". But it is alien to our understanding and carries a strange spirit.

i couldn't comment unless I knew what they said. It isn't the words that are the issue so much as the concepts. If they are talking about a self-existent, immaterial, singular source of all, than I would say they are talking about God in some way, but I can think of other ways people might use the term Divine.

If they are a sect of Hinduism, I'd guess they might have a concept similar to some neoplatonists?

[Mickey]

Originally Posted by Bluegoat

But just to be clear - I said a different God

Yes, I know.

Originally Posted by Bluegoat

If they are a sect of Hinduism, I'd guess they might have a concept similar to some neoplatonists?

In short, it is a play on the whole "cosmic consiousness" thing. Yogananda is set forth as a representative of God sent to help people to attain spiritual enlightenment. He claims to have found references to Kriya Yoga in the Bible.

[Contarini]

Mickey,

Since this thread seems to be a combination of several recent threads, I'd like to invite you to clear up what looks to me like an inconsistency in what you have said elsewhere. You have insisted that Muslims don't believe in the true God because believing in the true God is an all-or-nothing affair. Either you accept divine revelation about God or you don't, and if you don't then you worship a false God.

Now not only do I have trouble with how this is to be applied to the Jews (yes, I know I'm a broken record on this, but that's because the point has been continually dodged), but as I said to you earlier, it would seem that your logic would require you to say that Western Christians don't worship the true God. You said, I believe, that you don't believe this. But you didn't give a logical reason. If "bits" of true knowledge don't matter--if any error at all means that you're worshiping a false God--then how on earth can you, as an Orthodox Christian, say that people who believe in the Filioque are worshiping the true God?

I understand why you don't want to say this. But truth isn't dependent on what we want. What frustrates me about this issue is that those of you on the "hardline" side want to present yourselves as the resolute seekers of truth and us "liberals" as fuzzy-minded sentimentalists, and yet over and over again (as with the issue of the Jews, or the present question about the Filioque) you dodge issues, shift arguments (so, for instance, the standard answer to the argument about the Jews is to shift from a Trinity-based argument to a salvation-history argument, even though the same people will happily shift back to a Trinity-based argument when the pressure is off), and make fuzzy and inconsistent statements backed by a good deal of emotion.

I wish we could just bracket the whole question of who is being nice or charitable or whatever, because I think it gets in the way. What bothers me about your position is that it's not logical or coherent. You can't maintain it consistently, and yet you desperately want to maintain it with regard to Islam. Can you see why I have trouble respecting your position?

Also, please don't refer to people's attitudes to Islam as "ecumenist." Ecumenism is about intra-Christian relationships. This isn't about ecumenism.

Edwin

[Mickey]

Originally Posted by Contarini

Now not only do I have trouble with how this is to be applied to the Jews (yes, I know I'm a broken record on this, but that's because the point has been continually dodged), but as I said to you earlier, it would seem that your logic would require you to say that Western Christians don't worship the true God.

Edwin, this thread concerns approaching the false god of Islam. I am not discussing the Jewish faith...and I am not discussing the Filioque. I have contributed to those threads in the past. You can continue to prod, but I will not bite.

Originally Posted by Contarini

What frustrates me about this issue is that those of you on the "hardline" side

LOL! I don't know about "hardline"---but I am definitely a conservative. Do I consider you to be a "liberal"? Of course....you have embraced such things as support for female ordination. Do I consider you an interfaith pluralist? Absolutely---your stance on issues such praying with Hindus, Buddhists, and Muslims can affirm this. I believe your liberal and pluralist leanings are the reason you must remain an Episcopalian.

Originally Posted by Contarini

What bothers me about your position is that it's not logical or coherent.

I believe it is quite coherent and logical. And I think many here, Catholic and Orthodox alike, would agree. What bothers me about your position is that you whine about people being uncharitable, and then you become uncharitable.

Originally Posted by Contarini

Can you see why I have trouble respecting your position?

Frankly, I do not care if you respect my position or not. I maintain that Islam worships a false god. I'm sorry if you do not see it that way.

Originally Posted by Contarini

Also, please don't refer to people's attitudes to Islam as "ecumenist." Ecumenism is about intra-Christian relationships. This isn't about ecumenism.

Sorry. I should have said interfaith pluralism.


And furthermore, if you are so frustrated with my posts, you do not have to respond with your uncharitable diatribes.

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by Mickey

Edwin, this thread concerns approaching the false god of Islam. I am not discussing the Jewish faith...and I am not discussing the Filioque. I have contributed to those threads in the past. You can continue to prod, but I will not bite.

LOL! I don't know about "hardline"---but I am definitely a conservative. Do I consider you to be a "liberal"? Of course....you have embraced such things as support for female ordination. Do I consider you an interfaith pluralist? Absolutely---your stance on issues such praying with Hindus, Buddhists, and Muslims can affirm this. I believe your liberal and pluralist leanings are the reason you must remain an Episcopalian.

I believe it is quite consistent and logical. And I think many here, Catholic and Orthodox alike, would agree. What bothers me about your position is that you whine about people being uncharitable, and then you become uncharitable.
Frankly, I do not care if respect my position or not. I maintain that Islam worships a false god. I'm sorry if you do not see it that way.
Sorry. I should have said interfaith pluralism.


And furthermore, if you are so frustrated with my posts, you do not have to respond with your uncharitable diatribes.

All of Edwin\s questions are the same ones I would like to have answered. There is no way I can see to logically maintain these things together. If you know one, I think you should tell me.

I don't think that my position is a liberal one either.

[Mickey]

Originally Posted by Bluegoat

All of Edwin\s questions are the same ones I would like to have answered.

Which questions?

Originally Posted by Bluegoat

There is no way I can see to logically maintain these things together.

Maintain what things together?

Originally Posted by Bluegoat

I don't think that my position is a liberal one either.

What is your position?

[Contarini]

Originally Posted by Mickey

Edwin, this thread concerns approaching the false god of Islam. I am not discussing the Jewish faith...and I am not discussing the Filioque. I have contributed to those threads in the past. You can continue to prod, but I will not bite.

If you maintain a principle, and then refuse to apply it consistently, your position collapses. Why does your "all or nothing" principle apply to Muslims and not to Jews or Western Christians? The question remains. Every time you refuse to answer it you are convicting yourself of inconsistency.

Jews do not believe in everything that God has revealed.

According to you, as an Orthodox Christian, Western Christians have added a false conception to the Trinity.

According to your principle, neither group worships the true God.

Yet you refuse even to discuss the matter.

What else am I to conclude but that your position on Islam is driven purely by hatred of Islam (note that I do not say "hatred of Muslims") and not by sound reason or adherence to Sacred Tradition?

I believe it is quite coherent and logical. And I think many here, Catholic and Orthodox alike, would agree.

Well, your belief doesn't make it so. Truth matters. You can't or won't defend the truth of your position. You simply repeat that it is coherent, while refusing to address the concrete counter-examples I have offered.

What bothers me about your position is that you whine about people being uncharitable, and then you become uncharitable.

Where have I accused you of being uncharitable?
And where have I been uncharitable?

I think your position is wrong. I will say so in plain language. I do not blame you for putting your position in plain language. I blame you for clinging stubbornly to a position that you cannot logically defend, and that you cannot support from Sacred Tradition.

And furthermore, if you are so frustrated with my posts, you do not have to respond with your uncharitable diatribes.

What's uncharitable about pointing out inconsistency? Are you really so thin-skinned that you think refutation is uncharitable?

I'm acting charitably by refuting and rebuking you when you abandon sound reason and orthodox Christianity.

I expect no less of you.

In Christ,

Edwin

[Mickey]

Originally Posted by Contarini

Every time you refuse to answer it you are convicting yourself of inconsistency.

LOL! How can I be labeled as inconsistent if I have not answered it. But of course you have uncharitably put many words in my mouth.

Originally Posted by Contarini

Jews do not believe in everything that God has revealed.

Correct. Jesus is God and the Jews do not believe it.

Originally Posted by Contarini

According to you, as an Orthodox Christian, Western Christians have added a false conception to the Trinity.

Western Christians argue that when they say "and the Son" they are meaning "through the Son". That is what the Eastern Catholics (and many Western Christians tell me). As you know, the Filioque in itself is an endless debate. But of course we are talking about Islam here.

Originally Posted by Contarini

According to your principle, neither group worships the true God.

Now you are being contentious.

Originally Posted by Contarini

Yet you refuse even to discuss the matter.

Correct. This is about Islam.

Originally Posted by Contarini

What else am I to conclude but that your position on Islam is driven purely by hatred of Islam

I am so saddened by your conclusions and rush to judgement.

Originally Posted by Contarini

Truth matters.

Amen.

Originally Posted by Contarini

You can't or won't defend the truth of your position.

I have let one of the Church Fathers speak for me. It was very clear.

Originally Posted by Contarini

And where have I been uncharitable?

You have already hurled many insults---the most recent being your discernment of my hatred of Islam. Please knock it off.

Originally Posted by Contarini

I think your position is wrong.

I know what you think.

Originally Posted by Contarini

I blame you for clinging stubbornly to a position that you cannot logically defend, and that you cannot support from Sacred Tradition.

I have already done so. I blame you for not accepting it.

Originally Posted by Contarini

What's uncharitable about pointing out inconsistency?

What inconsistency?

Originally Posted by Contarini

Are you really so thin-skinned that you think refutation is uncharitable?

Are you so thin-skinned that you must continue to resort to uncharitable attacks?

Originally Posted by Contarini

I'm acting charitably by refuting and rebuking you when you abandon sound reason and orthodox Christianity.

You are refuting and rebuking nothing. Sound reason and Orthodox Christianity has not been abandoned. You have offered nothing to show that the Islam worships the true God. Whereas I have offered an excellent patristic source.