Fewer children? Then fewer nuns....

Michael Forrest · #1 Apr 4, '11, 7:32 am

http://www.getreligion.org/2011/03/f...en-fewer-nuns/

manualman · #2 Apr 4, '11, 7:52 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Forrest

http://www.getreligion.org/2011/03/f...en-fewer-nuns/

Totally true.

People are selfish and refuse to accept more than 1 or 2 kids. Then they are selfish and oppose it if somehow one of those two kids dares propose to give herself to Christ in the religious life. It's just being consistent.

And I believe I've seen it myself. Can't recall hearing a story about a kid from a big family who discerned a call and was discouraged from pursuing it by the parents.

Brendan McCabe · #3 Apr 4, '11, 8:43 am

Fewer children does not just mean fewer nuns it also means fewer people period and eventually no people at all if, as it is in Italy for example, the birth rate is below 2.1 and remains that way.

Brendan McCabe · #4 Apr 4, '11, 9:14 am

it also means less workers to produce and less consumers to buy which means a shrinking economy. And thanks to the wonders of social security this also guarantees ever increasing taxes on the shrinking working age population who must pay more individually because there are less workers to share the tax burden but the same and even increasing costs to be paid.

Immigration is the only thing preserving the system right now.

Alix1912 · #5 Apr 4, '11, 9:56 am

I keep teasing my husband that I might convert if I keep running into dorky teenage boys so I can send my daughter to a convent just to protect her.

dconklin · #6 Apr 4, '11, 10:20 am

I am not convinced the lower birth rate is the biggest hindrance to religious life. Religious life has so much more competing against it in winning the attention of children. One of the commenters on the article said religious life is "counter-cultural". This is not a new thing.

Unfortunately the "easy" things like attending Mass and religious education is counter-cultural too.

Rence · #7 Apr 4, '11, 10:27 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by manualman

Totally true.

People are selfish and refuse to accept more than 1 or 2 kids. Then they are selfish and oppose it if somehow one of those two kids dares propose to give herself to Christ in the religious life. It's just being consistent.

And I believe I've seen it myself. Can't recall hearing a story about a kid from a big family who discerned a call and was discouraged from pursuing it by the parents.

There is no set number of children a couple is required to have by the Church. The Church does not say it is selfish or sinful to have only one child, or two, etc. If the Church doesn't require it, we as members shouldn't either. What the Church does say is that it's part of responsible parenthood to determine what is best for one's family, considering many variables including health of the parents, ability to care for more children, economcis, etc. We do not live in an economy that allows everyone to have 10 children. Those that are called to have large families are doing so. Those that are not called to have large families have small ones.

As to being called to a religious life, parents want what is best for their children. Just like some individuals think that everyone is called to have many children, there are other individuals who think that their children would be more fulfilled by growing up and getting married, rather than being part of the clergy. I know what you mean about some people opposing their children from joinging clergy. They just want their child to be happy, and I feel today there is a stigma of "unhappiness" and "lonliness" associated with being a nun because people don't understand the devout life one is being called to. But I also believe that if a person truly has a calling, their parents won't be able to circumvent that from happening. God is more powerful than parents

There are less nuns simply because girls aren't aspiring to become nuns as much as they used to.

Alix1912 · #8 Apr 4, '11, 10:47 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rence

There is no set number of children a couple is required to have by the Church. The Church does not say it is selfish or sinful to have only one child, or two, etc. If the Church doesn't require it, we as members shouldn't either. What the Church does say is that it's part of responsible parenthood to determine what is best for one's family, considering many variables including health of the parents, ability to care for more children, economcis, etc. We do not live in an economy that allows everyone to have 10 children. Those that are called to have large families are doing so. Those that are not called to have large families have small ones.

As to being called to a religious life, parents want what is best for their children. Just like some individuals think that everyone is called to have many children, there are other individuals who think that their children would be more fulfilled by growing up and getting married, rather than being part of the clergy. I know what you mean about some people opposing their children from joinging clergy. They just want their child to be happy, and I feel today there is a stigma of "unhappiness" and "lonliness" associated with being a nun because people don't understand the devout life one is being called to. But I also believe that if a person truly has a calling, their parents won't be able to circumvent that from happening. God is more powerful than parents

There are less nuns simply because girls aren't aspiring to become nuns as much as they used to.

Excellent points. I really resent the implication that having a small family means you aren't as good as those with large families.

It's not always selfishness that causes smaller families in the US. Keep in mind that people are getting married later, and waiting longer to have kids. That isn't a bad thing either. I was 28 when my husband and I got married. I would not have wanted to get married sooner, as then I would not be married to my husband. We waited 2 years before having kids so we could learn to be a couple before adding kids. That means I was 30 when my daughter was born. I am 32 and expecting #2 right now. My pregnancies are really HARD on me. I am 6-7 weeks out from delivery and already suffering the pelvic seperation pain that is like being stabbed in the hip joint with everystep. The thought of a 3rd pregnancy right now is horrifying. It is hard enough to give my daughter the attention she needs now, I have no idea how I would chase two of them feeling like this. Also if I want a "big family" I would have to pop out a kid every 18 months to get at least 4 by the time it starts to get into me being too old. Sorry but that is not something I'm going to do just to satisfy nosiy people in my husband's church.

Don't judge people's faith by their family size. I don;t judge peoeple with big families, don't judge those who don't have them.

manualman · #9 Apr 4, '11, 1:15 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rence

There is no set number of children a couple is required to have by the Church. The Church does not say it is selfish or sinful to have only one child, or two, etc. If the Church doesn't require it, we as members shouldn't either.

Of course not. But your defense ignores the all too apparent reality of this culture we live in. Look around a bit. Do you REALLY think God is calling all these people to have just one and two kids?

Generalizations are always hard on the exceptions. But when bloody nearly everybody claims to be an exception, something is fishy! I only have three myself so far and yes, we didn't marry until age 29 either. But even with only THREE we get the rude comments about 'lack of control' and 'time for the snips...'

I make no judgements about individual couples with one kid. Not my business. But whole parishes full of one and two kid families are a symptom of a problem.

silentstar · #10 Apr 4, '11, 1:27 pm

Why are whole parishes with 1 and 2 kid families a symptom of a problem? My sister who is a very active Catholic and her husband have 2 kids. I know it's not right that large families are criticized just b/c strangers think they can judge how many kids are "too" many. But I don't see how it follows that small families are wrong. I know that Popes have spoken out to honor large families but again I don't see where that means small ones aren't doing the will of God. I do come from a family of 3 children and I think saying that 3 kids is a large family is kind of foolish. I never thought of our family of 5 as large and I wouldn't think that today, or that judging parents was my business.

Rence · #11 Apr 4, '11, 1:32 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by manualman

Of course not. But your defense ignores the all too apparent reality of this culture we live in. Look around a bit. Do you REALLY think God is calling all these people to have just one and two kids?

Yes I do actually. The reality is that our culture, and our economy, makes it very difficult to be able to give more than one or two children the financial, emotional and spiritual necessities, if that's not exactly what the couple is called to do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by manualman

Generalizations are always hard on the exceptions. But when bloody nearly everybody claims to be an exception, something is fishy! I only have three myself so far and yes, we didn't marry until age 29 either. But even with only THREE we get the rude comments about 'lack of control' and 'time for the snips...'

Well, I think that if more people would treat others like they wanted to be treated, those with small families, and those with large families would be a lot happier. Rude comments shouldn't be directed to those with large or small familes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by manualman

I make no judgements about individual couples with one kid. Not my business. But whole parishes full of one and two kid families are a symptom of a problem.

That's a judgement, just saying

There is no problem with the number of children anyone has. Every family is responsible for determining what is best for their family. Some have one or two, some have more. If the majority of people are having small families, that doesn't indicate the majority of people are doing the wrong thing and only a few are doing the right thing. It just means that not everyone has to have the same set number of children.

Brendan · #12 Apr 4, '11, 1:40 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rence

Yes I do actually. The reality is that our culture, and our economy, makes it very difficult to be able to give more than one or two children the financial, emotional and spiritual necessities, if that's not exactly what the couple is called to do.

Not really true, in absolute terms, we are more wealthy than any other generation (we can buy more for less).

I have 6 kids myself, on the salary of an engineer to an automotive supplier. That's a pretty good wage and I can live better than our family did growing up (again with 6 kids).

Do my kids have the Xbox's and Disney vacations that my co-workers kids do? No, of course not. Heck we don't even have air conditioning or cable TV.

Pope John Paul II once wrote: ""The greatest gift you can give your child is another sibling." So which would be more important, for me to install air conditioning, or give my children another sibling.

My father once summed it up pretty well : " It costs the same to raise six kids as it does to raise one...every cent 'ya got"

Brendan · #13 Apr 4, '11, 1:43 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rence

Every family is responsible for determining what is best for their family. .

And who knows more about what is best for a family than God Himself. So if a couple is REALLY interested in what is best for their family, they should simply leave that decision in God's hands.

Since children are a gift from God, and God always has our best interests at heart, He will not (in fact cannot) create more children for a couple than is good for them to have.

Cville Virginia · #14 Apr 4, '11, 1:49 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brendan

And who knows more about what is best for a family than God Himself. So if a couple is REALLY interested in what is best for their family, they should simply leave that decision in God's hands.

Since children are a gift from God, and God always has our best interests at heart, He will not (in fact cannot) create more children for a couple than is good for them to have.

Yes, the Lord knows what we can handle. Without him we are nothing, but with him we can do anything and take on any task He nudges us toward.

Rence · #15 Apr 4, '11, 2:03 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brendan

And who knows more about what is best for a family than God Himself. So if a couple is REALLY interested in what is best for their family, they should simply leave that decision in God's hands.

Since children are a gift from God, and God always has our best interests at heart, He will not (in fact cannot) create more children for a couple than is good for them to have.

Not so according to JPII, who called it "responsible parenthood":

The catechism states: "For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children." (2368).

And from Humanae Vitae: "With regard to physical, economic, psychological and social conditions, responsible parenthood is exercised by those who prudently and generously decide to have more children, and by those who, for serious reasons and with due respect to moral precepts, decide not to have additional children for either a certain or an indefinite period of time."

You can't really blame God if you have so many chidren (whether that's 13 or 3) that you can't afford to feed them, that you are having emotional trouble caring for and pulling your hair out of your head, or that you can't find the time, energy or will to spiritually guide. Some people realize this and stop having them. The ones that can have them, do have them. No one is required to have a definite set number of children, or a range of children.