Catholics worship Mary, crosses, cards, and bread?

Andrew Larkoski · #1 May 22, '04, 6:32 pm

If any of you have read "Top Ten Reasons Why Catholics aren't Christian" lists, more often thatn not, right after the claims about the pope and transubstantiation, the claim that Catholics worship Mary or stautes, or whatever (saints, angels, etc.) other than the Trinity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (the Trinity is also sometimes on these lists) is found.

After reading this, a Catholic who doesn't understand what veneration of Saints, Mary, crosses, etc. is and what the Church teaches on these matters might think that the "Hail Mary" is idolatry or the Rosary is misguided.

I am going to eat dinner now (sorry!) but I promise I will explain the truth behind these claims soon.

Tyler, take it away.

Wolseley · #2 May 22, '04, 6:41 pm

Most of these lists come from the "Master List" found in the opening pages of Loraine Boettner's 1962 anti-Catholic screed Roman Catholicism.

This list, or portions of it, appear repeatedly on the Internet, and that's why I wrote a short book last year refuting each of his 45 points, one by one. The book, as we speak, is presently in the hands of the editorial staff at Catholic Answers.

However, I haven't heard anything back from them yet, although I am waiting patiently.

I'm hoping they like it, because I think if it was published, it would prove to be a very useful tool for all Catholics who frequent Internet bulletin boards and encounter these misconceptions and fabrications on a regular basis.

Karl? (nudge, nudge)

theresepio · #3 May 22, '04, 9:56 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolseley

Most of these lists come from the "Master List" found in the opening pages of Loraine Boettner's 1962 anti-Catholic screed Roman Catholicism.

This list, or portions of it, appear repeatedly on the Internet, and that's why I wrote a short book last year refuting each of his 45 points, one by one. The book, as we speak, is presently in the hands of the editorial staff at Catholic Answers.

However, I haven't heard anything back from them yet, although I am waiting patiently.

I'm hoping they like it, because I think if it was published, it would prove to be a very useful tool for all Catholics who frequent Internet bulletin boards and encounter these misconceptions and fabrications on a regular basis.

Karl? (nudge, nudge)

Can I nudge Karl too? (Karl, nudge, nudge)

Some of us have been for this book for quite some time now!!!

Peace in Him!

theresepio · #4 May 22, '04, 10:46 pm

The question is WHY do they see us that way . .

I think to understand this, one has to understand where some of this comes from, some of its roots . . In many minds within protestantism, we have been almost irrevocably linked to ancient bablyonian paganism . . it takes alot to overcome that mindset.

To better understand this, I believe we need to go back to the mid 1800's when a scholar named Alexander Hislop wrote the acclaimed work in 1856, "The Two Babylons", about the Catholic Church, heavily foot noted and referenced, linking the Catholic Church to ancient Babylonian pagan religions . . and he went all out. His work was so "scholarly" that it was accepted without question for the next hundred years as THE book exposing the ttruth about the Catholic Church.

This work had a huge effect in many circles within Protestantism on how they viewed the Catholic faith.

Then, over a hundred years later, Evangelical theologian Ralph Woodrow enters the scene . . he writes his own book based on Hislop's work and titles it "Babylon Mystery Religion", putting Hislpos views into modern English. It was a huge success, published in several languages around the world. He was hailed as "the" authority on this subject, so much so that his work was even confused with Hislop's.

However, what many in those groups are not familiar with is that Woodrow was challanged by a friend who was a history teacher . . his friend and others challanged him to research Hislop's work due to the errors they found in it. Eventually, Woodrow did just that . . going so far as to hunt down the original sources Hislop used. What he found shocked him and caused him to pull his book from print, at great loss to himself. He then published a new book called

"The Babylon Connection?"

in which he thoroughly refutes Hislop's previous work . .

Here are two links on the subject

Did the Catholic Church Blend Paganism with Christianity?

http://davidmacd.com/catholic/were_catholics_pagan.htm

This one is in Woodrow's own words"
The Two Babylons: A Case Study in Poor Research Methodology
http://users.clarkston.com/rcorson/2babylons.htm

Then add Jack Chick and his infamous Tracts to the mix, and you have several generations of Protestants from various walks impacted by such extreme and unfounded rhetoric promoted as the gospel truth, for which they have no frame of reference to compare it to for its validity . . This information is being given to them by people they trust who were given it by people they trusted and so forth . .

There are many booklets, pamphlets and tracts available in Chrsitian books stores, over the internet, and through various Church ministries that keep perpetuating this understanding of the Catholic Faith.

I think what is key to showing them that what they believe is wrong is to understand where their understanding of our faith came from, what its roots are, and to have tools and information at hand to give them, or direct them to that can effectively refute their misconceptions..

I personally have not read Woodrows 2nd book above, but after reading his own words on the subject, I expect that it goes a long way to dispelling they myths he unwittingly helped perpetuate against the Catholic Church.

Peace in Him!

patricia · #5 May 23, '04, 5:49 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by theresepio

The question is WHY do they see us that way . .

I think what is key to showing them that what they believe is wrong is to understand where their understanding of our faith came from, what its roots are, and to have tools and information at hand to give them, or direct them to that can effectively refute their misconceptions..

I agree totally with this statement. I am a Protestant on my way to Catholicism. It was my interest in studying the roots of Christianity and the Church that led me to believe there were some serious errors in Protestantism.

Now after much reading and studying I have found that for me not to become Catholic would be to disobey God. But try to explain that to my friends or family!!!

I have found that generally speaking most Protestants don't seem interested in history or the roots of Christianity. They seem to feel it is enough to accept what their Pastors teach them and they see no need to verify sources. This is really a shame because in the words of Cardinal Newman:

"To be deep in history is to cease being a Protestant."

clskinner · #6 Jul 23, '04, 4:33 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by patricia

I have found that generally speaking most Protestants don't seem interested in history or the roots of Christianity.

I couldn't agree with you more, Patricia. I've found the same thing, especially in speaking with a particular Baptist friend of mine. "I don't care about that stuff," she says. Ignorance may be bliss, but it does not lead to Truth.

God bless you!

ecs 220 · #7 May 23, '04, 11:36 am

[QUOTE=theresepio]...Then add Jack Chick and his infamous Tracts to the mix, and you have several generations of Protestants from various walks impacted by such extreme and unfounded rhetoric promoted as the gospel truth, for which they have no frame of reference to compare it to for its validity . . This information is being given to them by people they trust who were given it by people they trusted and so forth . .
[quote]

The name "Jack Chick" virtually leapt from my screen as I read your post (prompting me to paraphrase a vulgar old saw: "He don't know Jack Chick about -- [fill in the blank] ")

Ain't Jack a hoot?? One must wonder not only how many people Mr. Chick has driven in horror from the Catholic Church, but how many people have been scared away from Christ Himself by Mr. Chick's bizarre fantasies. I never can fathom how one can claim to be a "Christian" and believe in such a bloodthirsty deity as Jack Chick's own personal sadistic "god".

Seems training in anti-Catholicism (or hatred of what some believe the Catholic Church to be) starts early: in the mid-60s, I transferred by necessity from my Parochial School to a public junior high. Upon hearing I was Catholic, one of my classmates asked, in all seriousness, "Why do Catholics pray to statues?" Apparently he believed it because some Reverend-Jim-Bob-Whatsisname told him so :-)

Wolseley · #8 May 23, '04, 1:33 pm

For those who have never seen it before, who are not fond of Mr. Chick's misrepresentations of our Faith, and who are fans of the erstwhile MST3K series, I offer the following parody, which can be found here:

http://www.apostate.com/mst3k-dd/intro.html

or here:

http://members.shaw.ca/mosiondz/mst3k-dd/intro.html

or here:

http://www.fecundity.com/darkdung/

Enjoy.

Mods: if these links violate anything, feel free to remove them with my blessing.

stephenthomas · #9 May 25, '04, 12:43 pm

i thought that after vatican ii we had gotten rid of most of that idolatry stufff and limited ourselves to worshipping plants and banners.

BobCatholic · #10 May 25, '04, 12:48 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephenthomas

i thought that after vatican ii we had gotten rid of most of that idolatry stufff and limited ourselves to worshipping plants and banners.

No, that's some parts of the church, which limited themselves to worshipping mirrors

Les Richardson · #11 Jul 25, '04, 9:57 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephenthomas

i thought that after vatican ii we had gotten rid of most of that idolatry stufff and limited ourselves to worshipping plants and banners.

lol!

**puzzleannie** · #12 Oct 29, '04, 4:52 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephenthomas

i thought that after vatican ii we had gotten rid of most of that idolatry stufff and limited ourselves to worshipping plants and banners.

yep, I think the only pagan practices going on now are liturgical dancing

NWUArmyROTC · #13 Jun 8, '04, 2:05 pm

[quote=ecs 220][QUOTE=theresepio]...Then add Jack Chick and his infamous Tracts to the mix, and you have several generations of Protestants from various walks impacted by such extreme and unfounded rhetoric promoted as the gospel truth, for which they have no frame of reference to compare it to for its validity . . This information is being given to them by people they trust who were given it by people they trusted and so forth . .

Quote:

The name "Jack Chick" virtually leapt from my screen as I read your post (prompting me to paraphrase a vulgar old saw: "He don't know Jack Chick about -- [fill in the blank] ")

Ain't Jack a hoot?? One must wonder not only how many people Mr. Chick has driven in horror from the Catholic Church, but how many people have been scared away from Christ Himself by Mr. Chick's bizarre fantasies. I never can fathom how one can claim to be a "Christian" and believe in such a bloodthirsty deity as Jack Chick's own personal sadistic "god".

Seems training in anti-Catholicism (or hatred of what some believe the Catholic Church to be) starts early: in the mid-60s, I transferred by necessity from my Parochial School to a public junior high. Upon hearing I was Catholic, one of my classmates asked, in all seriousness, "Why do Catholics pray to statues?" Apparently he believed it because some Reverend-Jim-Bob-Whatsisname told him so :-)

Jack Chick is so entertaining. I loved the part about how the Catholic Church started WWI, created Communism (led by the Jesuits), formed the Nazis, started WWII, orchestrated the Holocaust and hunted down true believers. Wow, and I will always remember the "wafer God." Where an idiot like Chick gets that **** is beyond me.

iguana27 · #14 Jun 8, '04, 2:49 pm

To be fair, uncatechized catholics riding around with statues in their car or doing certain superstitious practices like burying St Joseph in their yard to sell their home might cause a non-catholic to view the religion with suspicion. Anytime we place our faith in something in lieu of God it is idolatry.

I can't tell you how many times I have asked a catholics if they were Christian and they said "No, I'm Catholic."

Some Catholics DO appear to worship Mary and other saints. I am not saying it is what the Church teaches, but I have seen it. Some Catholics act like their rosary is a magic talisman, a practice which has been officially condemned. (The fact that it has been condemned is admission that the practice regretfully occurs.)

The best way to let Protestants know about your faith is to share it in a loving manner, with an attitude of prayer. It is probably best to start with areas of agreement than to jump in criticizing their faith.
I do understand that there is appropriate use of statues and images to foster a deep spiritual life. I also believe that such items can be used incorrectly.

George M · #15 Jun 8, '04, 4:18 pm

Since moving to the South I put up with a lot of flak about saying the rosary. I tell them they don't even know what I'm doing. One night I had some protestants over and of course we ended up talking about Mary. When I told them when we say the rosary were meditating on what Jesus went through. They didn't know what to say. I felt good.