Small thefts many times=mortal sin?

[fakename]

I wondering in what way do many small thefts lead to a mortal sin if it is true that many venial sins don't add up to a mortal sin?

[Robert Sock]

Originally Posted by fakename

I wondering in what way do many small thefts lead to a mortal sin if it is true that many venial sins don't add up to a mortal sin?

Think of us hanging onto God with a rope. Now imaging one strand of the rope getting severed every time we commit a venial sin. With enough venial sins the rope is severed and we fall away from God's grace and religion.

[passus]

No, that's actually not the case. You might use an analogy of a rope being severed to represent--I don't know--our distancing ourselves from God and the habitual practice of sin. But from a strictly theological standpoint, no number of venial sins well ever tally up to one mortal sin.

[fakename]

Originally Posted by passus

No, that's actually not the case. You might use an analogy of a rope being severed to represent--I don't know--our distancing ourselves from God and the habitual practice of sin. But from a strictly theological standpoint, no number of venial sins well ever tally up to one mortal sin.

But then how does one explain this from the Catholic Encyclopedia?

"small pilferings perpetrated at different times, whether to the prejudice of one or of many owners, can eventually coalesce and reach a sum forbidden under pain of mortal sin.

This coalescence may be brought about by the specific intention of the thief in his petty stealing to ultimately arrive at a conspicuous amount.

One who hoards the proceeds of his petty thefts is chargeable with mortal sin when the sum accumulated is grave.

Even when he has disposed of his ill-gotten goods as fast as they were acquired, his thievings will still be held to coalesce unless there has been a considerable interval of time between them."

And what amount generally counts as a grave amount, because I'm pretty sure I must've taken 100 dollars from a corporation.

[fakename]

Originally Posted by fakename

But then how does one explain this from the Catholic Encyclopedia?

"small pilferings perpetrated at different times, whether to the prejudice of one or of many owners, can eventually coalesce and reach a sum forbidden under pain of mortal sin.

This coalescence may be brought about by the specific intention of the thief in his petty stealing to ultimately arrive at a conspicuous amount.

One who hoards the proceeds of his petty thefts is chargeable with mortal sin when the sum accumulated is grave.

Even when he has disposed of his ill-gotten goods as fast as they were acquired, his thievings will still be held to coalesce unless there has been a considerable interval of time between them."

And what amount generally counts as a grave amount, because I'm pretty sure I must've taken 100 dollars from a corporation.

Again, why the seeming "summation" of thefts to forge a theft of increased gravity?

[EasterJoy]

Originally Posted by fakename

But then how does one explain this from the Catholic Encyclopedia?

"small pilferings perpetrated at different times, whether to the prejudice of one or of many owners, can eventually coalesce and reach a sum forbidden under pain of mortal sin.

This coalescence may be brought about by the specific intention of the thief in his petty stealing to ultimately arrive at a conspicuous amount.

One who hoards the proceeds of his petty thefts is chargeable with mortal sin when the sum accumulated is grave.

Even when he has disposed of his ill-gotten goods as fast as they were acquired, his thievings will still be held to coalesce unless there has been a considerable interval of time between them."

And what amount generally counts as a grave amount, because I'm pretty sure I must've taken 100 dollars from a corporation.

Are you asking how much you're allowed to steal before you're kicked from Purgatory to Hell?

[fakename]

Originally Posted by EasterJoy

Are you asking how much you're allowed to steal before you're kicked from Purgatory to Hell?

To the extent that statement may imply that I'm taking a mercenary view of religion, I wouldn't say that was the question. But to the extent that any classification of venial vs. mortal implies that you now know how much of one thing leads from purgatory to hell, then I would say that is the question.

[Carolus Martell]

I always thought stealing was a mortal sin since it's one of the 10 commandments.

[Bookcat]

Originally Posted by Carolus Martell

I always thought stealing was a mortal sin since it's one of the 10 commandments.

There is often both grave matter and venial matter...under the various commandments.

For example often a small lie is venial matter...where as to lie under oath is a good example of grave matter in that area.

etc etc...

[EasterJoy]

Originally Posted by fakename

To the extent that statement may imply that I'm taking a mercenary view of religion, I wouldn't say that was the question. But to the extent that any classification of venial vs. mortal implies that you now know how much of one thing leads from purgatory to hell, then I would say that is the question.

OK, fair enough.

Look at this the way you would look at blood loss, then. You know that in the body, there is this injury or that injury that is of sufficient gravity to kill you outright, yes? It is astonishing, sometimes, what a relatively small assault can do to a body that is 100% healthy in every other part. One act of sufficient gravity is enough to undo the whole mechanism, even in physical life. OTOH, this other injury may be more serious or less serious, it may look very ugly, but in an otherwise healthy person, it is not a mortal wound.

But let us say that you suffer the same sort of "small" wound day after day with no healing in-between. In that case, the thousand little cuts of bleeding is like one big bleeding event. Another person might have had the same number of similar cuts, but theirs were tended to every time. There was an immune response. There was healing. There was a healthy response that undid the damage. You can see these are very different situations.

I wasn't speaking entirely tongue-in-cheek about stealing the car from the factory one piece at a time. Patience and rationalization that the harm is spread out in time or among victims don't make what is a big crime into a lot of lesser crimes. Sometimes, one big wound, spread out in time and in different parts of the body, still adds up to one big mortally serious assault on the body's ability to heal. Just so, sometimes a great many sins that would have been small had they been separate, are in reality not small because in reality they are not separate. They are one in either intention or in their effect on the soul's relationship with God. Their gravity is quite as large as one single obviously serious theft, if the conscience consents to look rightly at the situation.

Does that make some sense?

[smichhertz]

Originally Posted by fakename

I wondering in what way do many small thefts lead to a mortal sin if it is true that many venial sins don't add up to a mortal sin?

Hi fakename,

They "add up" so to speak if it is directly intentioned. For instance, if I know that stealing X number of dollars is a mortal sin, so I instead steal X-1 dollars multiple times, I'm still in mortal sin as I really intended to steal over X number of dollars to begin with. I just tried to "get around it" by breaking the theft up into smaller "transactions".

Hope that makes sense.

[CopyKat]

Small theft is venial? I didn't know that. Is there actually a monetary value placed on the difference between venial and mortal theft?

[EasterJoy]

If it takes you twenty years to smuggle all the parts for a Cadillac out of the GM plant, it's still grand theft auto.

Seriously, though, it depends. Of course gravity is a necessary component of mortal sin, but you can't literally think of venials and mortals as if they were misdemeanors and felonies. Only human attempts at justice are so "juridical". It is the effect sin has on your soul. A life-long ingrained habit of feeling entitled to "little things" could add up to a grave refusal of God--not by the addition of little acts, but by the gravity of the durable underlying attitude that lead to the thefts--whereas struggling with the same thing and making many falls and getting up again over and over could be something else altogether.

Those who know me know that I am very fond of quoting C.S. Lewis from his Screwtape Letters. This is from the end of Letter 12:
"You will say that these are very small sins; and doubtless, like all young
tempters, you are anxious to be able to report spectacular wickedness. But do
remember, the only thing that matters is the extent to which you separate the
man from the Enemy. It does not matter how small the sins are provided that
their cumulative effect is to edge the man away from the Light and out into the
Nothing. Murder is no better than cards if cards can do the trick. Indeed the
safest road to Hell is the gradual one—the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without
sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts,
Your affectionate uncle
SCREWTAPE"

[x1980x]

Originally Posted by EasterJoy

If it takes you twenty years to smuggle all the parts for a Cadillac out of the GM plant, it's still grand theft auto.

Seriously, though, it depends. Of course gravity is a necessary component of mortal sin, but you can't literally think of venials and mortals as if they were misdemeanors and felonies.

In a sense, I've thought of the RC distinction between venial and mortal sins as akin to secular misdemeanors and felonies. The general rule, at least in the US, I believe, is that no quantity of misdemeanors can equal a felony unless the law provides for it. So, if you commit misdemeanor Disorderly Conduct every night for a year, you have still not committed a felony. Now, with theft, there is a principle (very old, I believe) that a series of theft acts that constitute part of an overall plan or scheme (i.e. they weren't just independent impulse thefts, but you had a plan all along to steal little by little) can be treated by the law as a single act of theft where the entire fruits of all the thefts were stolen at once, and they can add up the value and if it meets the threshold for felony grand theft then they can convict you of that.

The exact intention necessary may vary depending on the jurisdiction, but I think that the analogy may hold here.

[elrr4151]

Hello, I'm new to the forum, but I'm having a scrupulous problem here.

I was a revert back to the Church about a year ago. Now, before that I did some horrible things! When I came back to the church I made a general confession.

One of the sins I committed had to do with with stealing CD's and DVD's from a few major chain outlets... When I was finally caught and arrested I made a restitution in a money amount back to the store and I confessed my sins to a priest on this.

Now, I know my sins were absolved, but now I was just told the absolution may be only "conditional" ONLY if proper restitution was made. I don't even remember what everything was worth., However, I have given probably hundreds of dollars worth of money to Church's ,a few religious apostolates, and soup and clothes to poor communities...Where is the line drawn and when is it sufficient enough?

Also, Back when I was stealing these items I did not know it was a mortal sin and I didn't reflect upon the grave matter when i did it...

How can one answer this to put my mind at ease!

Thanks!