Comfortable career in Catholic college or demanding career in consulting?

[DL82]

Is there humility in accepting that the market knows best in assigning a high (6 figure) salary to research consultants, but a lower (c. $50k) salary to teaching at a small ecumenical Catholic/Anglican college?

The second, which makes enough to live comfortably, is a definite possibility. The first, which I could get if I were motivated to work for it, could be an option in a year or two.

As a married man, is it objectively better always to go for the job that would provide the best material benefits for my family, even if it means 80 hour weeks with lots of travel, instead of 30 hour weeks in a friendly campus environment. (The 'its not worth it if you die of a heart attack' argument is a red herring, btw, as big consultancy firms take good care of their assets, with good healthcare, on-site gyms, and I would take out a multi-million dollar insurance policy just to be safe.)

[Catholic1954]

As long as it is good, honest work, that you enjoy, and can comfortably support your family, it doesn't matter how much money you make. Go for the bucks (or whatever they call it in Scotland) and don't forget Catholic Charities!

[jhynds]

I did the early in life 6-figure route and in a perfect world, i wish i'd gone a smaller route.
I am not sure my spouse would be the same person, as we met in my high paying industry & after i was making good money. I idealize the 30 hour week and lower pay as being less stressful, and while i have what are called financial opportunities, I miss the calm of not ever really turning off the career, not even on the weekends or vacation.... I also traveled a lot. When i was single it was great, when i got married i could not "just stop" traveling. I had to seek non traveling management roles in order to stay home more.
So, if at the end of the day you can go for a walk with a loved one and both of you are happy.... go that route.

[DL82]

Originally Posted by jhynds

I did the early in life 6-figure route and in a perfect world, i wish i'd gone a smaller route.
I am not sure my spouse would be the same person, as we met in my high paying industry & after i was making good money. I idealize the 30 hour week and lower pay as being less stressful, and while i have what are called financial opportunities, I miss the calm of not ever really turning off the career, not even on the weekends or vacation.... I also traveled a lot. When i was single it was great, when i got married i could not "just stop" traveling. I had to seek non traveling management roles in order to stay home more.
So, if at the end of the day you can go for a walk with a loved one and both of you are happy.... go that route.

This presumes that my wife and I consider going for a walk and being happy to be our highest value. Our highest value is to provide the best (materially and spiritually) for our children. If I am away 6 days in 7 but can come home, resolve any discipline issues with the kids, take them to Mass and then out for lunch, before kissing goodbye to my wife and knowing that I have provided what she needs to homeschool our kids or send them to the best private Catholic school in the area, if my kids can see a father who is willing to sacrifice for them and for the objective pursuit of the best, we will be happy.

[Rascalking]

Originally Posted by DL82

This presumes that my wife and I consider going for a walk and being happy to be our highest value. Our highest value is to provide the best (materially and spiritually) for our children. If I am away 6 days in 7 but can come home, resolve any discipline issues with the kids, take them to Mass and then out for lunch, before kissing goodbye to my wife and knowing that I have provided what she needs to homeschool our kids or send them to the best private Catholic school in the area, if my kids can see a father who is willing to sacrifice for them and for the objective pursuit of the best, we will be happy.

Woah! You can't travel 6 or 7 days a week and provide a home for your family. My old man traveled quite a bit (Usually Tuesday-Thursday, sometimes more) but he would NEVER be gone as much as what your saying.

There is a middle ground here.

[DL82]

Originally Posted by Rascalking

Woah! You can't travel 6 or 7 days a week and provide a home for your family. My old man traveled quite a bit (Usually Tuesday-Thursday, sometimes more) but he would NEVER be gone as much as what your saying.

There is a middle ground here.

Maybe some hyperbole there, I don't expect to have to travel that much, but even if I did, I would do it, because there are objective goods to marriage other than feeling good and spending time taking long walks together.

[Rascalking]

Originally Posted by DL82

Maybe some hyperbole there, I don't expect to have to travel that much, but even if I did, I would do it, because there are objective goods to marriage other than feeling good and spending time taking long walks together.

Well, I'm not going to tell you how to run your life or your marriage. Do whatever you want.

What I will say is that I virtually guarantee that you'll make your life miserable and put your kids and marriage in jeopardy if you dedicate yourself to working those hours.

My view of marriage is different than yours. Yes, I know it's not about long walks and feeling good, but that stuff does matter.

[jhynds]

i understand your point...from my experience the best thing you can give them is your time. That is why i no longer travel. Albeit I'm almost 30 yrs into my career and can afford to send my kids to a great Catholic school AND be home. That was not the case for the first "several" years. Careers are like reputations they take time to build

[DL82]

Originally Posted by jhynds

i understand your point...from my experience the best thing you can give them is your time. That is why i no longer travel. Albeit I'm almost 30 yrs into my career and can afford to send my kids to a great Catholic school AND be home. That was not the case for the first "several" years. Careers are like reputations they take time to build

I see your point. Each marriage is different, and my wife and I both need our time alone as well as time together. As for making a reputation, I am already nearly 30, and have already been making a reputation - that reputation has taken me from a prestigious PhD in a UK research university to an NSF postdoc at an Ivy League university in the US. That reputation has also already won me a permanent job in this small Catholic teaching college, should I choose to take it.

On the other hand, why get off the ladder at such a low rung. From where I am, I could keep building a reputation and find work with a research consultancy, making significant sums of money. It is easier to do that first, then stop and trade it in for an easier life, than to slow down now then regret it later when I'm older and can't afford to give my wife and children the best in life. Maybe you really do give your best by being home, but I really think it would be narcissistic for me to say that my spending a few hours playing ball with my sons would be worth as much as paying 35k a year to send them to Ampleforth Abbey, one of the best Catholic boarding schools in England, with many distinguished bishops, Papal knights and Catholic aristocracy among its alumni.

I could, of course, afford to raise my children and send them to Catholic schools for free if I took the job in the UK, thanks to the Catholic Education Service of England being part of a pact with the government to compromise the independence of its schools such that many are Catholic in name only, and thanks to our European socialist system of income-independent handouts for families. Even at a 'Christian' institution in the UK, I'm unlikely to find anyone whose ideas are not infected with liberal, marxist or postmodern ideologies. At least in the private sector there's an openness to the harsh reality of life in a fallen world, without the illusion that we're building some kind of utopia.

(Funny thing is, off-forum, I'm not really like this, I don't rant about socialism, I live in a liberal college town and get on well with people here, I do show, and care about, my emotions, and I really really want to find some objective reason that would make it acceptable for me to take the college job over the possibility of burning myself out in research consultancy)

[newf]

Originally Posted by DL82

On the other hand, why get off the ladder at such a low rung. From where I am, I could keep building a reputation and find work with a research consultancy, making significant sums of money. It is easier to do that first, then stop and trade it in for an easier life, than to slow down now then regret it later when I'm older and can't afford to give my wife and children the best in life. Maybe you really do give your best by being home, but I really think it would be narcissistic for me to say that my spending a few hours playing ball with my sons would be worth as much as paying 35k a year to send them to Ampleforth Abbey, one of the best Catholic boarding schools in England, with many distinguished bishops, Papal knights and Catholic aristocracy among its alumni.

If you want to keep 'building your reputation' go for it. Go ahead and make all your significant sums of money, since that seems to be an important goal of yours. And of course, there is nothing wrong with that.

But I had to laugh when you said you think it would be narcissistic for you to play ball with your sons rather than send them to some ritzy boarding school. Really??! Ha! Why don't you make your goal to be a good dad first and send them to the ritzy school second. If you can't do both, you won't regret being present for your sons' childhood.

[DL82]

Originally Posted by newf

If you want to keep 'building your reputation' go for it. Go ahead and make all your significant sums of money, since that seems to be an important goal of yours. And of course, there is nothing wrong with that.

But I had to laugh when you said you think it would be narcissistic for you to play ball with your sons rather than send them to some ritzy boarding school. Really??! Ha! Why don't you make your goal to be a good dad first and send them to the ritzy school second. If you can't do both, you won't regret being present for your sons' childhood.

What I mean is that the monks there have more to offer than I do. I think that's the truth.

I realize it would be wonderful, joyful, emotionally satisfying to be around to see my kids grow up. That's why the lecturing job still appeals. I also realize those are entirely selfish motives for denying them the best I can provide. Parenthood is not about joy, but sacrifice. I always felt I was raised too tenderly by my own father, wonderful though he is, and that a man ought to be willing to sacrifice his own emotional indulgence to show his sons how to be a man and his daughters what to look for in a husband. Just FYI, newlyweds, don't have any kids yet (apart from Francis, our little angel in heaven) but plan to have more some day.

[newf]

Originally Posted by DL82

What I mean is that the monks there have more to offer than I do. I think that's the truth.

I realize it would be wonderful, joyful, emotionally satisfying to be around to see my kids grow up. That's why the lecturing job still appeals. I also realize those are entirely selfish motives for denying them the best I can provide. Parenthood is not about joy, but sacrifice. I always felt I was raised too tenderly by my own father, wonderful though he is, and that a man ought to be willing to sacrifice his own emotional indulgence to show his sons how to be a man and his daughters what to look for in a husband. Just FYI, newlyweds, don't have any kids yet (apart from Francis, our little angel in heaven) but plan to have more some day.

I think you are wrong.

Why do you think the monks have more to offer your children than you? How are they going to know your children better than you? Monks have their place, but it's not parenthood.

Why do you not allow yourself the lecture job? If you are happiest doing that, then your family will be happiest, too. When you are happy, then the stuggles and sacrifices that come along are much easier to deal with. Parenthood IS about joy. And if you want to know what extreme joy is, well, that is grandparenthood! Yes, there are sacrifices, but they are outweighed by the joy of having children.

Being Catholic is about being joyful in what you are called to do. It is not emotional indulgence to enjoy your child. Where did you get an idea like that?

[DL82]

Originally Posted by newf

I think you are wrong.

Why do you think the monks have more to offer your children than you? How are they going to know your children better than you? Monks have their place, but it's not parenthood.

Why do you not allow yourself the lecture job? If you are happiest doing that, then your family will be happiest, too. When you are happy, then the stuggles and sacrifices that come along are much easier to deal with. Parenthood IS about joy. And if you want to know what extreme joy is, well, that is grandparenthood! Yes, there are sacrifices, but they are outweighed by the joy of having children.

Being Catholic is about being joyful in what you are called to do. It is not emotional indulgence to enjoy your child. Where did you get an idea like that?

Firstly, for those who think fathers who work long hours to enable their wives to stay home are a bad idea, consider this study http://www.mercatornet.com/articles/...rens_happiness Spanish fathers do exactly that and their children seem among the most contented in Europe.

Secondly, it seems to me that many of the saints had truly selfless parents who were willing to forego pleasures of friendship with their children to instill in them the resolve needed to live the faith. Such were the parents of English recusants, who brought their children into the world to die a martyr's death. Such was the mother of St Louis IX, who told her son "I love you as much as a mother can love her child, but I would rather see you dead at my feet than that you commit a single mortal sin!"

[bstorm]

DL82,

I really do not understand why your choice is so black and white - either you take this job at Catholic College or you work as a consultant. Are there truly no other opportunities? Jobs at other, bigger Universities, for example?

Reading the thread, it seems to me that you really do not want to take the job you were offered. And I do not think the reason for that is monetary, but it has to do more with the prestige of the job. You say that you have a PhD from a prestigious University in the UK and a postdoc from an Ivy League school. I bet somewhere in your mind you feel like getting a job at a small college (where you would not even consider sending your future children) means settling for less. If you take that job, you either have to stay there for the rest of your life or you can only move to a similar, low-ranked college. Did you really need an Ivy League education for that?

I think you should not take the job. First, for the rest of your life, you will feel like you have settled for something, that you could have done much better, both regarding the prestige and financially-wise. It will make you and your family miserable. Second, the school and the department deserves to have somebody that is happy to be there because he loves teaching at a small school, not somebody that took the job just to have more time for his family. Third, I do not think it is a good idea to make job decisions based on future children that might or might not come. Children are a gift and not every couple is able to have them. What are you going to do if you take the job, get stuck there, and then it turns out you have no children? Will you still be happy having made that choice or will you regret it? Fourth, you can always look for a similar job in the future if you keep yourself qualified.

Finally, my advice would have been completely different if you already had children and were trying to figure out how to spend more time with them or if you were currently unemployed and struggling financially. And, you really need to discuss this with your wife.

[DL82]

I have obviously been very poor at explaining my situation. That's my own fault for adopting a persona on this forum that's really not the most accurate picture of me.

Firstly, about my situation - married, and yes, of course I talk this over with my wife, no kids but hoping for some someday, currently at the start of a 2 year contract as a postdoc.

At the moment, the job market is very bad in Higher Education (in America, big private schools lost a lot of their endowment in the recession, in the UK, public universities are in the middle of a change from a European state-funded system to an American fee-funded system, it's happening far too quickly, and most universities are like rabbits caught in headlights until they can see what consequences it will bring. Could move to Northern Europe or Australia, but really wouldn't want to be that far away from everyone my wife and I know). I consulted with a senior colleague from my student days, and he admits that it is hard to turn down a permanent job from any institution at the moment.

About the institution itself, it is not bad, and I would like to work there. If I am going to teach at any University in the UK, it may as well be that one. The pay is competitive with salaries elsewhere in the system (because of the public-funded history of UK universities, they tend to pay about the same from Oxford right down to local vocational universities, except at the very top professorial levels). I like the institution's focus on education, Christian values and reaching out to people in the local community. I could see the potential to be promoted very quickly there because I'd be a big fish in a relatively small pond. If my children wanted to be school teachers or school chaplains, or a few other things that the institution does well, I wouldn't object to them going there. I wouldn't just be taking the job to spend time with my family, but also to have some freedom from demands for research funding bids which would allow me to pursue my own projects and build an identity in the field, instead of being a researcher for hire. It would also be a good opportunity to develop some teaching experience.

About the other options - yes, I could hold out for an opening in a more prestigious institution, but it's unlikely to come along in the next 2 years in the exact area I'm interested in, and even if I do get a tenure track post, it's likely to pay about the same as the job offer I have now. On the other hand, I can see that universities are becoming less and less involved in research that has an impact on policy, that to do that, you need to be in consultancy. People who work for big research consultancy firms like Rand, McKinsey, or 3M can begin on salaries around $100,000. They work long hours, with lots of travel, and are under constant pressure to perform to tight deadlines. A junior partner at McKinsey, however, would be making the top end of 6 figures, and a senior partner takes a share of the company profits (which are immense). That would give my family the best start, and allow me to make a contribution to the church in some way.

I ask myself, how can I become a Catholic knight, and I can think of many wealthy businessmen in the KM, but not a single professor. I ask myself, how can I encourage my children to follow their vocation, and I feel like the latter option is more of an example of sacrifice for others for them to follow. I look at the emotional detachment exhibited by the holy priests like the FSSP, FI or Brompton Oratorians, and I can see how their entire view of life and manliness is sacrificial, with clearly delineated gender roles - many of the lay men in Tradition are basically a praying companion, an ATM and a sperm donor to their wives.

All the same, I have never been the corporate 'type', I can put on a persona, and my wife would like me to be that competitive persona more often, but it doesn't feel natural to me. I want to be more than an ATM and a sperm donor to my wife, and more than a distant disciplinarian to my children. We don't attend a Traditional parish, we attend a friendly ordinary parish in our local town, and feel part of that community just as we are. When I am approaching retirement, perhaps it will be the permanent Diaconate that appeals more than the Knights of Malta (or perhaps just being a husband and a grandpa will be enough of a vocation).

It's not just about what I do, I will be a very different person, and my family will be a very different family, depending on which of these choices I take. On one hand, modest but financially stable, living within our means, involved in a parish community, with my wife perhaps homeschooling and me taking time to consider the moral value of education and helping young people to do the same. On the other hand, wealthy, held together by prayer and self-sacrifice, involved in funding non-profit causes, children attending a prestigious school and me carving out a career in a viciously competitive corporate world. The people we will be when we are 60 will be formed by 30 years of this experience, so the decision we take now matters. Any help would be greatly appreciated.