Posture after the Agnus Dei

[JGMendes4049]

Is there any list of the dioceses in which the diocesan bishop has exercised his right to have the faithful not kneel after the Agnus Dei?

[PrayForMeStJude]

I suspect they would be heavily concentrated along the west coast or in the northeast. The Diocese of Stockton, under Bishop Stephen Blair, does not kneel following the Agnus Dei.

[lynnareyno]

The Diocese of Gaylord, Michigan has had everyone stand after the Agnus Dei and keep standing until after everyone has received communion. This is changing ( new bishop) when the new translation of the mass starts on Nov,. 27. When this was announced at the Marian Peace Conference everyone clapped.
In the Archdiocese of Detroit there are exceptions for churches without kneelers to stand after the Agnus Dei.
I am only familiar with those 2 dioceses and would also be interested in the answer OP's question.

[corsair]

I have always knelt at the Agnus Dei in the OF.

[Brendan]

A few years ago, I was in Cleveland and went to Sunday Mass. Everyone remained standing after the Agnus Dei. I don't know if it was just that parish, or the whole diocese.

[Brendan]

Originally Posted by lynnareyno

The Diocese of Gaylord, Michigan has had everyone stand after the Agnus Dei and keep standing until after everyone has received communion.

The first part is well within the authority of the bishop.

The second part ( remain standing until everyone recieves) is not.

Cardinal Francis George, chairman of the BCL, to submit a dubium (doubt, question) to the Holy See's Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments (CDW) on May 26, 2003:

Dubium: In many places, the faithful are accustomed to kneeling or sitting in personal prayer upon returning to their places after having individually received Holy Communion during Mass. Is it the intention of the Missale Romanum, editio typica tertia, to forbid this practice?

Cardinal Francis Arinze, Prefect of the CDW, responded to the question on June 5, 2003 (Prot. N. 855/03/L):

Responsum: Negative, et ad mensum [No, for this reason]. The mens [reasoning] is that the prescription of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani, no. 43, is intended, on the one hand, to ensure within broad limits a certain uniformity of posture within the congregation for the various parts of the celebration of Holy Mass, and on the other, to not regulate posture rigidly in such a way that those who wish to kneel or sit would no longer be free.

http://www.adoremus.org/0703Kneel.html

. In the Archdiocese of Detroit there are exceptions for churches without kneelers to stand after the Agnus Dei.

There should not be too many of those parishes left. The construction of churches without kneelers was permitted under Cardinal Dearden.

But his sucessor Cardianl Szoka, and every bishop since, has mandated that if a parish does a renovation or expansion would be required to put kneelers in.

So the only churches that would be without kneelers are those that were constructed in the 70's with no work done on them at all since the early 80's

[Evan]

Originally Posted by lynnareyno

The Diocese of Gaylord, Michigan has had everyone stand after the Agnus Dei and keep standing until after everyone has received communion.

I am from the Seattle diocese and I think there has been some misunderstanding concerning this directive. We are asked to stand (as stated above) until everyone has received communion. Then we are free to sit or kneel for private prayer after communion. This usually lasts for 2-3 minutes.

Thus, the uniformity in posture is maintained. As is the desire for private prayer after communion.

[Phemie]

Originally Posted by Evan

I am from the Seattle diocese and I think there has been some misunderstanding concerning this directive. We are asked to stand (as stated above) until everyone has received communion. Then we are free to sit or kneel for private prayer after communion. This usually lasts for 2-3 minutes.

Thus, the uniformity in posture is maintained. As is the desire for private prayer after communion.

The dubium in post #6 shows that, while the default posture when returning to the pew after receiving Communion is standing, it is not to be interpreted so rigidly as to prevent someone from kneeling or sitting if they want to. What Rome was saying is that standing couldn't be imposed.

[Evan]

Originally Posted by Phemie

The dubium in post #6 shows that, while the default posture when returning to the pew after receiving Communion is standing, it is not to be interpreted so rigidly as to prevent someone from kneeling or sitting if they want to. What Rome was saying is that standing couldn't be imposed.

Correct. But I think the local bishop could ask that we remain standing for some time and then kneel when all have returned. It did not specify when we were free to begin kneeling only that there must be time to kneel (if desired) after communion. So there is still some confusion as to what the bishop can legitimately request of the congregation.

I know our bishop asked for us to remain standing till all have received, our priest has gone beyond this and asked us to stand until he has purified the vessels (6-8 chalises and 4 cibarium. Then he clears the altar and sits. We then kneel or sit for 2-3 minutes 'til he rises with "Let us pray".

If that final time of silence is not observed, one would need to be permitted to kneel immediately following communion as per the dubium.

My preference would be to kneel through the purification process and the clearing of the altar, then sit with the priest. But out of respect for him, I stand then kneel. In this way I find a great separation between the liturgy of the word (standing and sitting) and the liturgy of the Eucharist (standing and kneeling... no sitting from the Sanctus to the end of Mass). I'm coming to like it.

[roadsend]

Cardinal Francis Arinze, Prefect of the CDW, responded to the question on June 5, 2003 (Prot. N. 855/03/L):

Responsum: Negative, et ad mensum [No, for this reason]. The mens [reasoning] is that the prescription of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani, no. 43, is intended, on the one hand, to ensure within broad limits a certain uniformity of posture within the congregation for the various parts of the celebration of Holy Mass, and on the other, to not regulate posture rigidly in such a way that those who wish to kneel or sit would no longer be free.

The BCL Newsletter continues: "In the implementation of the General Instruction of the Roman Missal, therefore, posture should not be regulated so rigidly as to forbid individual communicants from kneeling or sitting when returning from having received Holy Communion" (p. 26. Emphasis added.)

Earlier, the CDW had reaffirmed kneeling after the Ecce Agnus Dei [Behold, the Lamb of God] when it amended the relevant paragraph (no. 43) of the GIRM for the universal Church by adding the following clarifying sentence:

Where it is the custom that the people remain kneeling from the end of the Sanctus until the end of the Eucharistic Prayer, and before Communion when the priest says Ecce Agnus Dei, this is laudably retained. [See AB March 2003, p. 4 sidebar.]








(my bolds)

[Evan]

Originally Posted by roadsend

Cardinal Francis Arinze, Prefect of the CDW, responded to the question on June 5, 2003 (Prot. N. 855/03/L):

Responsum: Negative, et ad mensum [No, for this reason]. The mens [reasoning] is that the prescription of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani, no. 43, is intended, on the one hand, to ensure within broad limits a certain uniformity of posture within the congregation for the various parts of the celebration of Holy Mass, and on the other, to not regulate posture rigidly in such a way that those who wish to kneel or sit would no longer be free.

The BCL Newsletter continues: "In the implementation of the General Instruction of the Roman Missal, therefore, posture should not be regulated so rigidly as to forbid individual communicants from kneeling or sitting when returning from having received Holy Communion" (p. 26. Emphasis added.)

Earlier, the CDW had reaffirmed kneeling after the Ecce Agnus Dei [Behold, the Lamb of God] when it amended the relevant paragraph (no. 43) of the GIRM for the universal Church by adding the following clarifying sentence:

Where it is the custom that the people remain kneeling from the end of the Sanctus until the end of the Eucharistic Prayer, and before Communion when the priest says Ecce Agnus Dei, this is laudably retained. [See AB March 2003, p. 4 sidebar.]

(my bolds)

I guess I should clarify: Our priest has said: "He would prefer we stand 'til he sits, then all would change to another posture." Generally, the pianist stops the music at that same time. So there is no compulsion one way or another, simply an expressed preference.

[zab]

Originally Posted by Evan

Correct. But I think the local bishop could ask that we remain standing for some time and then kneel when all have returned. It did not specify when we were free to begin kneeling only that there must be time to kneel (if desired) after communion. So there is still some confusion as to what the bishop can legitimately request of the congregation.

I know our bishop asked for us to remain standing till all have received, our priest has gone beyond this and asked us to stand until he has purified the vessels (6-8 chalises and 4 cibarium. Then he clears the altar and sits. We then kneel or sit for 2-3 minutes 'til he rises with "Let us pray".

If that final time of silence is not observed, one would need to be permitted to kneel immediately following communion as per the dubium.

My preference would be to kneel through the purification process and the clearing of the altar, then sit with the priest. But out of respect for him, I stand then kneel. In this way I find a great separation between the liturgy of the word (standing and sitting) and the liturgy of the Eucharist (standing and kneeling... no sitting from the Sanctus to the end of Mass). I'm coming to like it.

It is true that orginally he did ask that we all remain standing until after everyone received. But that changed and we were given the option to remain standing or to kneel or sit when coming back from Communion. Everyone in our parish continued to kneel. At least we got the message in our parish. I don't know if other parishes did or if the pastors did not make that clear to their parishioners that they did have an option when coming back from Communion.

[djd83]

MissRose73:

Which parishes do you usually attend?

I am in this diocese and go to the St. Mary's University Parish (because I'm a college student and it's close-by). It has kneelers!

I went to the Alma parish a couple times and I'm disappointed that they don't

[Oneofthewomen]

Originally Posted by JGMendes4049

Is there any list of the dioceses in which the diocesan bishop has exercised his right to have the faithful not kneel after the Agnus Dei?

In my Diocese (Rochester, NY) our Bishop has left it up to the individual pastor.
Most parishes remain standing, maybe about 10% kneel.

[centurionguard]

Originally Posted by JG Mendes 4049

Is there any list of the dioceses in which the diocesan bishop has exercised his right to have the faithful not kneel after the Agnus Dei?

Increasingly across Canadian Dioceses, parishes are now without kneelers which sadly is a growing trend.

My present Parish built in 1882 is virtually the only surviving parish which still has usuable kneelers. And yes we still kneel at the consecration, though some visitors in the congregation choose to stand. Fact is though there's talk about having the Kneelers removed altogether.