Scriptural evidence for "pre-mortal existence". Is there any?

SteveVH · #1 Nov 11, '11, 1:14 pm

It seems that at the heart of the differences between many Mormon and traditional Christian beliefs lies the doctrine of pre-mortal existence; the idea that we have co-existed from eternity with God as eternal "intelligences" who then become "spirit children" of God and then came to earth to take on human flesh in order to begin the process of exaltation for the final purpose of becoming gods ourselves. Within this doctrine is also the belief that even inert matter is co-eternal with God, having no beginning. This doctrine is so basic to Mormon thought that it governs nearly all of its subsequent theology and is the cause, in my opinion, of much misunderstanding. If I have mis-stated anything here I am open to correction.

My question is this. Where in biblical Scripture is there any evidence of this? The best I can find are verses such as "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; and before you came forth out of the womb I sanctified you, and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations." (Jer 1:5). It does not appear though, that this conveyed the meaning held by the LDS Church to anyone but the LDS, rather it is interpreted by most Christians to mean that God is omniscient, or "all knowing".

Since this doctrine is so basic to Mormon theology, and so oppossed to traditional Christian theology, I thought it was worth discussion.

Publisher · #2 Nov 11, '11, 1:28 pm

There is Mormon scriptural evidence that support the pre-existence of souls....as I understand...it was a controversy in the early church....IMO due to some Gnostic teachings which existed along side more "orthodox" teachings in many congregations...the "emerging Catholic church" even condemned the belief if I remember correctly.

Oriegin was one of it's chief proponents...but was called "heretic" I believe later.

In Genesis, the JST says...."For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. . . . And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air; But I, the Lord God, spake, and there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. And I, the Lord God, formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul, the first flesh upon the earth, the first man also; nevertheless, all things were before created; but spiritually were they created and made according to my word. (Book of Moses 3:5-7. June – October 1830)

Coupled with the "light" of latter day revelation...now those obscure passages that could be read as speaking to the pre-existence of souls now seem much "clearer".

SteveVH · #3 Nov 11, '11, 1:42 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Publisher

There is Mormon scriptural evidence that support the pre-existence of souls....as I understand...it was a controversy in the early church....IMO due to some Gnostic teachings which existed along side more "orthodox" teachings in many congregations...the "emerging Catholic church" even condemned the belief if I remember correctly.

Oriegin was one of it's chief proponents...but was called "heretic" I believe later.

In Genesis, the JST says...."For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. . . . And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air; But I, the Lord God, spake, and there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. And I, the Lord God, formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul, the first flesh upon the earth, the first man also; nevertheless, all things were before created; but spiritually were they created and made according to my word. (Book of Moses 3:5-7. June – October 1830)

Coupled with the "light" of latter day revelation...now those obscure passages that could be read as speaking to the pre-existence of souls now seem much "clearer".

Thanks, Publisher. I am aware that it appears in "Mormon Scripture", but that convinces no one but Mormons who already believe it. Does it not seem strange that if it is true, that such a basic dogma would not have been expressly stated by the Apostles, somewhere? There are some ancillary issues that arise also. If premortal intelligences and matter are co-eternal with God, does that not then make God dependent on them in order to create, which in turn speaks against his omnipotence? The idea that God is all-powerful is found throughout the Scriptures, in which case that idea cannot co-exist with the idea of co-eternal intelligences and matter.

Publisher · #4 Nov 11, '11, 1:42 pm

Another "latter day scripture" teaching the pre-mortal existence...."Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence. . . . For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy. (D&C 93:29, 33).

**GEddie** · #5 Nov 11, '11, 1:57 pm

Nope; Scripture states that God "forms the spirit of man within him", that is, within the body.

In 1 Corinthians, S. Paul states the "natural" comes first; then the spiritual. There is no spiritual life prior to the natural life; the body comes first.

Apart from the Book of Mormon, there is no support for a human being's premortal existence.

ICXC NIKA

freddo · #6 Nov 13, '11, 1:31 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by GEddie

Nope; Scripture states that God "forms the spirit of man within him", that is, within the body.

In 1 Corinthians, S. Paul states the "natural" comes first; then the spiritual. There is no spiritual life prior to the natural life; the body comes first.

Apart from the Book of Mormon, there is no support for a human being's premortal existence.

ICXC NIKA

Slight hijack, and I hope I didn't miss it as I read through the thread, but...where is that in 1 Corinthians?

Telstar · #7 Nov 13, '11, 7:26 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by freddo

Slight hijack, and I hope I didn't miss it as I read through the thread, but...where is that in 1 Corinthians?

1 Corinthians 15:[33] Be not seduced: Evil communications corrupt good manners. [34] Awake, ye just, and sin not. For some have not the knowledge of God, I speak it to your shame. [35] But some man will say: How do the dead rise again? or with what manner of body shall they come?

[36] Senseless man, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die first. [37] And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not the body that shall be; but bare grain, as of wheat, or of some of the rest. [38] But God giveth it a body as he will: and to every seed its proper body. [39] All flesh is not the same flesh: but one is the flesh of men, another of beasts, another of birds, another of fishes. [40] And there are bodies celestial, and bodies terrestrial: but, one is the glory of the celestial, and another of the terrestrial.

[41] One is the glory of the sun, another the glory of the moon, and another the glory of the stars. For star differeth from star in glory. [42] So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it shall rise in incorruption. [43] It is sown in dishonour, it shall rise in glory. It is sown in weakness, it shall rise in power. [44] It is sown a natural body, it shall rise a spiritual body. If there be a natural body, there is also a spiritual body, as it is written: [45] The first man Adam was made into a living soul; the last Adam into a quickening spirit.

[46] Yet that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; afterwards that which is spiritual. [47] The first man was of the earth, earthly: the second man, from heaven, heavenly. [48] Such as is the earthly, such also are the earthly: and such as is the heavenly, such also are they that are heavenly. [49] Therefore as we have borne the image of the earthly, let us bear also the image of the heavenly. [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot possess the kingdom of God: neither shall corruption possess incorruption.

[51] Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall all indeed rise again: but we shall not all be changed. [52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall rise again incorruptible: and we shall be changed. [53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption; and this mortal must put on immortality. [54] And when this mortal hath put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory. [55] O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?

Paul refers to our natural progression from our creation as a human being, living on this earth, to our spiritual rebirth that will come in the resurrection. He makes a distinction between our 'natural body' in this mortal world, and our 'spiritual body' (glorified) that we'll have after the resurrection. We are first born into the flesh, then into the spirit. The body of the first Adam is the example of our earthly bodies that all begin in the same way that his did. The second Adam (Jesus) is the example of what we will become when we are 'reborn in the spirit' and take on our glorified flesh to become immortal, in the resurrection, the same way that Jesus did when He rose from the dead. There is no mention whatsoever that we existed in any form before God gave us our earthly bodies, just as Adam didn't exist before God created him and breathed life into him.

Pepband Mom · #8 Nov 13, '11, 9:29 am

LDS use Jer 1:5 but in God's mind we existed like a idea, an "ideal" not "real" existence. Jeremiah and us as well has an eternal "ideal' existence in the mind of God, not an actual "real" existence.

Romans 4:17 "...the God who restores the dead to life and calls into being those things which had not been".
Straightforward - calls into being

Eccl 12:7 "then shall the dust return to the earth as it was; and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.."
Dust meaning the human body that returns back to its primary elements, ashes to ashes, dust to dust; to dust we shall return. Nothing here about the "spirit" or soul

Hebrews 12:9 "Shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits and live?"
Bodies need cooperation with God to create - Mom & Dad
Souls are His domain alone.
He made them.

re: revelation
God has "revealed" many things to me in my life, He discloses, He prods me. He helps me uncover things. He opens my eyes. He is my Rock. As I get older, I look back & see His hand in my life all over the place.

He lavishes me with His GRACE through His Sacraments but I do not claim "PROPHET STATUS" because of what he "reveals" to me.

There are "revelations"(private) and then there are "Revelations"(Public -ended long ago)

SteveVH · #9 Nov 14, '11, 6:41 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pepband Mom

Romans 4:17 "...the God who restores the dead to life and calls into being those things which had not been".
Straightforward - calls into being

What an excellent quote! One aspect that I see in all of this is a completely different idea of who God is; the Christian view being that God can and does bring into existence everything that exists, from nothing, simply by a thought; by his will. He "calls into being", he does not simply"organize" existing material as one would use wood to "create" a house or paint to "create" a painting. This is why I included in my original post the subject of omnipotence. The Mormons to which I have spoken tell me they believe that God is omnipotent, yet God cannot be omnipotent if he is dependent upon any other thing or being. To believe that God was dependent upon anything in order to create is an incredibly limited and erroneous view of who God truly is; omnipotent; omniscient, omnipresent and any other "omni" one can conceive. In my opinion, they have truly created God in man's image; a being who is subject to and limited by the laws of the world in which he finds himself.

Tony888 · #10 Nov 13, '11, 4:28 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telstar

[46] Yet that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; afterwards that which is spiritual. [47] The first man was of the earth, earthly: the second man, from heaven, heavenly. [48] Such as is the earthly, such also are the earthly: and such as is the heavenly, such also are they that are heavenly. [49] Therefore as we have borne the image of the earthly, let us bear also the image of the heavenly. [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot possess the kingdom of God: neither shall corruption possess incorruption.

Thanks telstar, To me it is clear this scripture is referring to the growth of our spiritual nature as we work to become 'christ-like.' I don't believe it is discussing the creation of our soul. I think we both agree the soul exists in the body at the moment of conception, thus it exists as the earthly body develops (not after). Even the most evil of people, who do not develop their heavenly nature have a soul from the moment of coneception.

SteveVH · #11 Nov 14, '11, 8:08 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony888

[/indent]Thanks telstar, To me it is clear this scripture is referring to the growth of our spiritual nature as we work to become 'christ-like.' I don't believe it is discussing the creation of our soul. I think we both agree the soul exists in the body at the moment of conception, thus it exists as the earthly body develops (not after). Even the most evil of people, who do not develop their heavenly nature have a soul from the moment of coneception.

Paul's words directly refute your interpretation. We must receive the spirit of Christ, the second man, from heaven, in order to bear the image of the heavenly, otherwise we remain like the first man; earthly. Our soul became devoid of divine life, due to original sin. Through baptism our soul is infused with supernatural (above-nature) life; original sin is washed away and we bear the image of the divine.

Read Paul's words again:

"The first man was of the earth, earthly: the second man, from heaven, heavenly. [48] Such as is the earthly, such also are the earthly: and such as is the heavenly, such also are they that are heavenly. [49] Therefore as we have borne the image of the earthly, let us bear also the image of the heavenly. [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot possess the kingdom of God: neither shall corruption possess incorruption."

Tony888 · #12 Nov 14, '11, 8:27 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveVH

Paul's words directly refute your interpretation. We must receive the spirit of Christ, the second man, from heaven, in order to bear the image of the heavenly, otherwise we remain like the first man; earthly. Our soul became devoid of divine life, due to original sin. Through baptism our soul is infused with supernatural (above-nature) life; original sin is washed away and we bear the image of the divine.

Read Paul's words again:

"The first man was of the earth, earthly: the second man, from heaven, heavenly. [48] Such as is the earthly, such also are the earthly: and such as is the heavenly, such also are they that are heavenly. [49] Therefore as we have borne the image of the earthly, let us bear also the image of the heavenly. [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot possess the kingdom of God: neither shall corruption possess incorruption."

No steve, it seems explicit that this text is referencing the second man as the transformative power of receiving the Holy Spirit with baptism. For it is only through Christ and the guidance of the Holy Spirit that we can possess the kingdom of God

Paul uses the heavenly 'second man' as a metaphore for salvation. He is not waxing on about when the soul is created.

SteveVH · #13 Nov 15, '11, 1:41 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony888

No steve, it seems explicit that this text is referencing the second man as the transformative power of receiving the Holy Spirit with baptism. For it is only through Christ and the guidance of the Holy Spirit that we can possess the kingdom of God

Paul uses the heavenly 'second man' as a metaphore for salvation. He is not waxing on about when the soul is created.

The first man is Adam. The second man (the second Adam) is Jesus Christ. The first is earthly (made from dust), the second heavenly (came from heaven).

Pepband Mom · #14 Nov 16, '11, 4:55 pm

Re quote about 1st Man 2nd Man

Adam is known to be as the First man/adam; responsible for the Fall; the Sin of Adam
Jesus is the Second Adam who redeems us from the Fall, the Sin of Adam

To further expand on this issue Adam check this out with Eve:

Eve is the 1st Woman; Latin for Eve is EVA
Mary the 2nd Woman; according to the Early Church Father ____________, Mary UNTIES or reverses the knot that Eve tied. Jesus says to her at the wedding at CANA, "Woman..."

REVERSE EVA & you get AVE

which is Latin for HAIL, as in Hail full of Grace by St. Gabriel; KAIRE = HAIL, Kecharitomene = FULL of Grace; the only place in the Bible where a WOMAN is acclaimed with a ROYAL TITLE as Hail is usually reserved for King, Governors, etc.

Contrasted With St. Stephen at time of martyrdom is FULL of Grace Pleres Charitas but never before in his life only at time of stoning..

Mary is the Queen Mother, the Gebbirah of the NT, MOTHER OF THE KING, Jesus the second Adam, the Son of Man and the Son of God

Bonus Question:
Mary's prophecy "All generations shall call me blessed". If a sect, cult, denom fails to proclaim Mary as Blessed, where does that leave them? Sounds like way out of the boundaries of the original group Mary knew would hold her up for WHO SHE IS

shaky · #15 Jan 19, '12, 6:32 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by GEddie

Nope; Scripture states that God "forms the spirit of man within him", that is, within the body.

In 1 Corinthians, S. Paul states the "natural" comes first; then the spiritual. There is no spiritual life prior to the natural life; the body comes first.

Apart from the Book of Mormon, there is no support for a human being's premortal existence.

ICXC NIKA

We are all born with a ''spirit'' body and soul. Its the Spirit=Neos our own spirit that might have pre-existed.

When Paul was talking about first comes the ''Natural'' was he talking about our natural spirit body and Soul?

Then the Spiritual>Is this not when we are born again in Gods Spirit?