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  #1  
Old Jul 7, '05, 9:52 pm
Reformed Rob Reformed Rob is offline
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Default Does Benedict XVI believe in.. The Papacy???

Whew, what a conversation I had with a friend that I'm not so cool with now!!

I guess this is the wrong place to ask this question. I will probably only get "yes he does" type answers. But anyways...

This guy told me that "Benedict XVI doesn't even believe in the Papacy."

Where would he get that?? How do you prove such a statement wrong??

Like, does he have "different" views about the nature of the Papacy? I don't know, so I ask.

-Rob
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  #2  
Old Jul 7, '05, 10:11 pm
marty1818 marty1818 is offline
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Default Re: Does Benedict XVI believe in.. The Papacy???

I have no idea. The comment he made seems to make little sense. If Benedict did not believe in the Papacy why would he be the pope. Sorry I couldn't help.

matthew
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  #3  
Old Jul 7, '05, 10:14 pm
allhers allhers is offline
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Default Re: Does Benedict XVI believe in.. The Papacy???

tell your friend to go to this site

www.vatican.va

he believes!
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  #4  
Old Jul 7, '05, 10:23 pm
Reformed Rob Reformed Rob is offline
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Default Re: Does Benedict XVI believe in.. The Papacy???

Quote:
Originally Posted by allhers
tell your friend to go to this site

www.vatican.va

he believes!
Where there exactly would you direct a person?

I see he's dressed up like a Pope, but that doesn't mean he believes in the Papacy.

I don't think the comment was meant to be like "He doesn't really think he's the Pope, because he doesn't believe in the Papacy. He's just pretending."

There's more to it than that, I assure you. I just don't know what. I wasn't wanting to prolong that particular conversation.

Though I do see that in a Motu Proprio, He approved the Compendium for the CCC. I'll have to keep my eyes out for that!
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Chastity has its origin in the heart, but its substance in the body; it is lost by means of the external senses of the body, and by the thoughts and desires of the heart. -St. Francis de Sales
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  #5  
Old Jul 7, '05, 11:16 pm
allhers allhers is offline
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Default Re: Does Benedict XVI believe in.. The Papacy???

after going to the home page at www.vatican.va

-click on the Papal seal, that is to the left of his picture, where it says benedictvs xvi, see that?
-click on it and then click on homilies on the list
-and then go to 2005 and click on that
-and then scroll down to April 24th, 2005 and click on the english one, (since you are typing in english here), if you understand one of the other languages feel free, however, after clicking on that you will see his homily that he gave and in which he says, in about his second sentence of it:
Tu illum adiuva sustain the new Successor of Saint Peter. now, why would he call himself that, if he didn't believe he was?? Your so called friend sounds like he needs to accept the fact that he is the Pope and that he does believe it.

Personally, I thank God that he is.
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  #6  
Old Jul 9, '05, 12:07 pm
Reformed Rob Reformed Rob is offline
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Default Re: Does Benedict XVI believe in.. The Papacy???

Quote:
Originally Posted by allhers
after going to the home page at www.vatican.va
Your so called friend sounds like he needs to accept the fact that he is the Pope and that he does believe it.

Personally, I thank God that he is.
Yeah, thanks.

I should keep up with his homilies from week to week.

Hmmm, I read the one from May 7 also, plenty of good "I'm the Pope, the Pope ought to..." statements.

Here's one.

The Chair of Peter obliges all who hold it to say, as Peter said during a crisis time among the disciples when so many wanted to leave him: "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We have come to believe; we are convinced that you are God's holy one" (Jn 6: 68 ff.).
The One who sits on the Chair of Peter must remember the Lord's words to Simon Peter at the Last Supper: "...You in turn must strengthen your brothers" (Lk 22: 32). The one who holds the office of the Petrine ministry must be aware that he is a frail and weak human being - just as his own powers are frail and weak - and is constantly in need of purification and conversion.


And another.

This power of teaching frightens many people in and outside the Church. They wonder whether freedom of conscience is threatened or whether it is a presumption opposed to freedom of thought. It is not like this. The power that Christ conferred upon Peter and his Successors is, in an absolute sense, a mandate to serve. The power of teaching in the Church involves a commitment to the service of obedience to the faith. The Pope is not an absolute monarch whose thoughts and desires are law. On the contrary: the Pope's ministry is a guarantee of obedience to Christ and to his Word. He must not proclaim his own ideas, but rather constantly bind himself and the Church to obedience to God's Word, in the face of every attempt to adapt it or water it down, and every form of opportunism.

Yeah, my friend has some explaining to do!

Thank-Rob
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Chastity has its origin in the heart, but its substance in the body; it is lost by means of the external senses of the body, and by the thoughts and desires of the heart. -St. Francis de Sales
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  #7  
Old Jul 9, '05, 2:31 pm
mjdonnelly mjdonnelly is offline
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Default Re: Does Benedict XVI believe in.. The Papacy???

The burden of proof is on your friend.
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  #8  
Old Jul 9, '05, 5:18 pm
Reformed Rob Reformed Rob is offline
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Default Re: Does Benedict XVI believe in.. The Papacy???

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjdonnelly
The burden of proof is on your friend.
Yeah, and he left me like 5 voice mails on my cell phone last night, and the topic at hand was part of one of them.

He's persistent, and well read. He's probably read like 4 or 5 of Ratzinger's books, like Salt of the Earth and One Covenant Many Faiths.

If you want, I can get the essence of why he would say what he said, and distill it down with quotes from Ratzinger/Benedict XVI for you.
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  #9  
Old Jul 10, '05, 3:31 pm
Reformed Rob Reformed Rob is offline
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Default Re: Does Benedict XVI believe in.. The Papacy???

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjdonnelly
The burden of proof is on your friend.
Ok, here we go, I've got some Card. Ratzinger quotes. I might call Fr. Ambrose in here, he might like this.

From Joseph Ratzinger, Principles of Catholic Theology, p. 198,199

Against all expectation, the bishop of Rome is among us, the first among us in honor, 'he who presides in love.' It is clear that, in saying this, the Patriarch did not abandon the claims of the Eastern Churches or acknowledge the primacy of the west. Rather, he stated plainly what the East understood as the order, the rank and title, of the equal bishops in the Church and it would be worth our while to consider whether this archaic confession, which has nothing to do with the 'primacy of jurisdiction' but confesses a primacy of 'honor' and agape, might not be recognized as a formula that adequately reflects the position that Rome occupies in the Church

Reading on, on p. 216 and 217 you see what his conclusion is, about how the Church of the 1st millenium viewed the primacy of Rome. He says that it's NOT what Vatican 1 defined, but rather what the Eastern Orthodox hold to:

Nor is it possible, on the other hand, for him to regard as the only possible form and, consequently, as binding on all Christians the form this primacy has taken in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. In other words, Rome must not require more from the East with respect to the doctrine of the primacy than had been formulated and was lived in the first millennium. When the Patriarch Athenagoras [the non-Catholic, schismatic Patriarch], on July 25, 1967, on the occasion of the Pope's visit to Phanar, designated him as the successor of St. Peter, as the most esteemed among us, as one who presides in charity, this great Church leader was expressing the ecclesial content of the doctrine of the primacy as it was known in the first millennium. Rome need not ask for more."



So there. I know that took a couple minutes to read, but there you have it. His claim is that Ratzinger denies the Vatican I formulation of the Papacy:

Denzinger 1827, Vatican I, Dogmatic Const. on the Church of Christ,

Furthermore, We teach and declare that the Roman Church, by the disposition of the Lord, holds the sovereignty of ordinary power over all others, and that this power of jurisdiction on the part of the Roman Pontiff, which is truly episcopal, is immediate, etc.

And Denzinger 1831, same Vatican I
If anyone thus speaks, that the Roman Pontiff has only the office of inspection or direction, but not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the universal Church,.... let him be anathema.

So, how the Eastern Orthodox cannot be expected to recognize what the Church defined in Vatican I, and how Ratzinger as an outstanding theologian can't demand that they believe that, and how he can doubt that the 1st millenium church believed what was defined at Vatican 1 (after all, the Church isn't supposed to dogmatically define things that are not of the Apostolic Deposit of the Faith, is it..?), I don't understand.


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Chastity has its origin in the heart, but its substance in the body; it is lost by means of the external senses of the body, and by the thoughts and desires of the heart. -St. Francis de Sales
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  #10  
Old Jul 10, '05, 3:49 pm
adventistnomore adventistnomore is offline
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Default Re: Does Benedict XVI believe in.. The Papacy???

Reformed Bob,

Good point, but, is the "form" of that Papal primacy expressed in the 19th/20th cenuries specifically that which is defined by Vatican I, or simply the reality of the way the primacy is exercised today? You seem to equate the two. For example, the authority exercised by the Pope within some of the Eastern rites of the Catholic Church may be more direct is necessitated by Vatican I. For example, one could point to the financial support of the Eastern Catholic Churches by Rome, or the restrictions placed upon the election of Eastern Patriarchs (if not elected in 15 days, the Pope may intervene). Card inal atzinger may have been speaking of a greater hands-off approach than any "need" to reject Vatican I (whose definition I believe the Orthodox would have to accept to be re-communicated).

I don't know... Any other thoughts?
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  #11  
Old Jul 10, '05, 3:58 pm
Reformed Rob Reformed Rob is offline
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Default Re: Does Benedict XVI believe in.. The Papacy???

Quote:
Originally Posted by adventistnomore
Reformed Bob,

Good point, but, is the "form" of that Papal primacy expressed in the 19th/20th cenuries specifically that which is defined by Vatican I, or simply the reality of the way the primacy is exercised today? You seem to equate the two. F
I'm not sure I understand what you're asking.

It seems that he's saying that for the first 1000 years, the Catholic Church operated under the understanding that the Eastern Orthodox had in 1054 of the Bishop of Rome, and have today. Not a primacy of jurisdiction, but only a primacy of charity.

But I haven't read the book or even have it, those were just the quotes I was given.

-Rob
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Chastity has its origin in the heart, but its substance in the body; it is lost by means of the external senses of the body, and by the thoughts and desires of the heart. -St. Francis de Sales
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  #12  
Old Jul 8, '05, 12:08 am
gap51 gap51 is offline
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Default Re: Does Benedict XVI believe in.. The Papacy???

How does one go about proving a negative that is abstract.

Can anybody prove B16's belief without his saying so. If he has what's the proof?
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  #13  
Old Jul 7, '05, 11:31 pm
antiaphrodite antiaphrodite is offline
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Default Re: Does Benedict XVI believe in.. The Papacy???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reformed Rob
This guy told me that "Benedict XVI doesn't even believe in the Papacy."

-Rob

eh??!
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  #14  
Old Jul 7, '05, 11:37 pm
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Default Re: Does Benedict XVI believe in.. The Papacy???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reformed Rob
This guy told me that "Benedict XVI doesn't even believe in the Papacy."
And I thought I'd heard it all, silly me

The utter absurdity of that statement...wow...it amazes me how someone could honestly believe that.
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God bless Pope Benedict XVI
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  #15  
Old Jul 8, '05, 12:53 am
Knight4Christ Knight4Christ is offline
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Default Re: Does Benedict XVI believe in.. The Papacy???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reformed Rob
I guess this is the wrong place to ask this question. I will probably only get "yes he does" type answers. But anyways...

This guy told me that "Benedict XVI doesn't even believe in the Papacy."
Wrong place? What you want a no answer? You will "probably" only get "yes he does" type answers. Because "yes he does" type answers are the only true answers. As too how to prove its not true, thats easy you will find no document, letter, audio recording, or tv show where Benedict XVI said he didnt believe in The Papacy.

If anyone should prove anything it is your friend. After all he is the one that said it, he should have to be the one to prove Benedict XVI said he doesnt believe in The Papacy. I really really really truly doubt your friend can prove anything close to the truth that Benedict XVI said he doesnt believe in The Papacy. I believe your friend misinformed you or you friend has been misinformed.

We should not have to prove Benedict XVI believes in The Papacy, but come on the fact that Benedict XVI is Pope Benedict XVI should be enuff prove. Being Pope is The Papacy!
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