Why would God create those that He knew would end up in Hell.

[Salient]

I know God gives us free will and respects it, so we have the option to choose heaven or hell.

However, why would God create humans (and even the fallen angels) if He knew they were going to reject Him and then suffer eternally in hell? I know that God loves everyone equally and beyond our imagination, so it makes Him sad to see their awful outcome after life. So wouldn't He rather that those who do not love Him above everything else to just have never existed rather than be in hell?

A friend pointed out that if God didn't create people or angels that would reject Him, we wouldn't be able to see God's true love as the the only people and angels that would exist would be the ones that love God above all else. You can't truly understand, appreciate, or see light without there being darkness. Also, then there must be no evil, so then we probably wouldn't be able to prove our love for God.

However, what about Jesus saying that it would have been better if Judas wasn't born. He wanted Judas to truly love Him and gave Him the chance to do so, but wouldn't he have rather that Judas never existed rather than for Judas to choose Hell (and then be separated from God)?

Is this considered one of the mysteries of God? Whatever and however He does things is obviously the best way but I suppose it may not be something we can always comprehend.

Thanks.

[empther]

God could not know somebody was going to hell unless he created him.

How could God know somebody he hever creates would have gone to hell?



This is just another self-contradiction question. God cannot make something be and not be at the same time.
If God knows somebody is going to hell, it is because the person is real. He exists at some time. If somebody were to never exist, than he would have no afterllife to be known and God couldn't know what would happen to.

It's a package deal. Either we have both the person's creation and damnation, or neither.

[tonyrey]

Originally Posted by empther

God could not know somebody was going to hell unless he created him.

How could God know somebody he never creates would have gone to hell?



This is just another self-contradiction question. God cannot make something be and not be at the same time.
If God knows somebody is going to hell, it is because the person is real. He exists at some time. If somebody were to never exist, than he would have no afterlife to be known and God couldn't know what would happen to.

A very good point! It could be argued that God should let the damned disappear rather than suffer for ever... (but destruction is inconsistent with God's love).

[JohnAlexander]

Originally Posted by tonyrey

A very good point! It could be argued that God should let the damned disappear rather than suffer for ever... (but destruction is inconsistent with God's love).

How exactly is God supposed to make someone disappear? That would require God to forget them which is not possible. Our existence is caused by God's knowledge of us.

Besides just because someone hates God does not mean that God hates them back. I think God still loves all his creation even those who are in Hell.

If you believe in God and you believe he is all knowing, all powerful, all good, etc. then you have to believe that whatever he does is best. Would the Universe be a better place if those destined for Hell ceased to exist when they died? What would be required for that to happen? We don't know.

I do not doubt for one second that when we die God's justice will be made clear. I don't think anyone will be sad about those in Hell (nor will they gloat in other's suffering as some atheists accuse Christians of doing).

[tonyrey]

Originally Posted by JohnAlexander

How exactly is God supposed to make someone disappear? That would require God to forget them which is not possible. Our existence is caused by God's knowledge of us.

According to that argument God cannot make anything disappear - which seems inconsistent with His omnipotence. It is not God's knowledge thatis the cause of our existence but His creative love.

Besides just because someone hates God does not mean that God hates them back. I think God still loves all his creation even those who are in Hell.

Precisely!

If you believe in God and you believe he is all knowing, all powerful, all good, etc. then you have to believe that whatever he does is best. Would the Universe be a better place if those destined for Hell ceased to exist when they died? What would be required for that to happen? We don't know.

He would have to will them to disappear but would He do that after having created them in His own image?

I do not doubt for one second that when we die God's justice will be made clear. I don't think anyone will be sad about those in Hell (nor will they gloat in other's suffering as some atheists accuse Christians of doing).

Some Christians seem to dwell with delight on the imaginary details of the torments of hell! Perhaps they wouldn't be so keen if they thought it is their destination... .

[JohnAlexander]

Originally Posted by tonyrey

According to that argument God cannot make anything disappear - which seems inconsistent with His omnipotence. It is not God's knowledge thatis the cause of our existence but His creative love.

Pr

That is exactly true. Anything that has ever existed still exists. Not from our point of view though.

God does not exist in time. He exists the same at all times. Every moment of existence is the present to God. The past, present and future are not different things to God. All of existence, past, present and future exist in the now to God.

God is not a super intelligent being who can correctly guess what will happen in the future. He knows what will happen because it is now to him.

Love is why God creates us. Knowing us is what causes our existence. God knows every hair on our heads because that is what causes the hair to exist to begin with. It is not possible for God to not know something that exists. It is also how God knows all our desires, prayers, etc.

There is a philosophical idea called "Last Thursdayism" The idea is that the universe was created last Thursday but God made everything appear as if it had been created earlier. This includes any memories you think you have of anything that happened prior to last Thursday. There is no way to disprove this.

The problem I see with it is that there is no difference. In making the universe appear as if it existed earlier than last Thursday (including the big bang, original stars, super nova, our sun & planets, molten earth, first life, reptiles, dinosaurs, etc.) then from our point of view they did exist. What we experience is existence.

Perhaps a more understandable analogy would be human stories. Take the Star Wars story for example. Even though the prequals were made after the original (ep IV) they happened before. The author can make up anything he wants at a later date and from the characters point of view they happened before. Human authors are very limited in what we can hold in our minds. God has no limitations.

[tonyrey]

Originally Posted by JohnAlexander

That is exactly true. Anything that has ever existed still exists. Not from our point of view though.

God does not exist in time. He exists the same at all times. Every moment of existence is the present to God. The past, present and future are not different things to God. All of existence, past, present and future exist in the now to God.

God is not a super intelligent being who can correctly guess what will happen in the future. He knows what will happen because it is now to him.

Love is why God creates us. Knowing us is what causes our existence. God knows every hair on our heads because that is what causes the hair to exist to begin with. It is not possible for God to not know something that exists. It is also how God knows all our desires, prayers, etc.

There is a philosophical idea called "Last Thursdayism" The idea is that the universe was created last Thursday but God made everything appear as if it had been created earlier. This includes any memories you think you have of anything that happened prior to last Thursday. There is no way to disprove this.

The problem I see with it is that there is no difference. In making the universe appear as if it existed earlier than last Thursday (including the big bang, original stars, super nova, our sun & planets, molten earth, first life, reptiles, dinosaurs, etc.) then from our point of view they did exist. What we experience is existence.

Perhaps a more understandable analogy would be human stories. Take the Star Wars story for example. Even though the prequals were made after the original (ep IV) they happened before. The author can make up anything he wants at a later date and from the characters point of view they happened before. Human authors are very limited in what we can hold in our minds. God has no limitations.

I agree you - apart from your view that God cannot make things disappear. There is certainly no way to prove this!

[Gorgias]

Originally Posted by empther

God could not know somebody was going to hell unless he created him.

Ouch! No.

What you're saying is that that God gained knowledge when He created the universe -- in other words, that God is mutable. That's not in line with Catholic doctrine.

How could God know somebody he hever creates would have gone to hell?

That's not the right question to ask. God is outside time: therefore, He knows everything that happens in creation from all eternity. There is no "somebody he never creates".

You seem to be making an assertion about God's perfection. Medieval philosophers would talk about what God did or didn't do, and what God could or could not have done, and got stuck in some weird corners with that logic...

[tonyrey]

God would prefer those who do not love Him not to have existed rather than be in hell! But He is the Creator not the Destroyer. Could you kill one of your children even if he or she rejects you and never contacts you again?

There is also the problem of the descendants of those who are in hell. They would have been deprived of the opportunity to exist through no fault of their own. Surely that
would be unjust...

The damned are damned because they choose to be absolutely independent and exist for themselves. Hell must have its compensations: otherwise it would be vacant. They suffer because they are separated from God but they have the pleasure and satisfaction of being subject to no higher authority. Their lust for power is almost satiated - but not quite. Ay, there's the rub! The more they have the more they want... like drug addicts who hate their plight.

While there is life there is hope - even in hell. God makes the rules and with God all things are possible...

[FurtherSuntime]

Think of it this way.

In order for the economy to be possible somebody somewhere has got to work in assembly due to ignoring education, starve due to the world ignoring fair distribution of wealth, loose money due to making a stupid mistake, loose their wife, children or family due to being stupid, and on and on. In order for creation to be possible , that being humanity and the fun time in heaven....somebody somewhere has got to go to hell !

Otherwise none of this is possible

Now don't you feel special? I mean is there anything more important then you feeling special?

I will answer...of course not.

I donno about the wondering man.

( what century is this anyway?

[empther]

These remarks by FurtherSuntime are completely meaningless:

Think of it this way.

In order for the economy to be possible somebody somewhere has got to work in assembly due to ignoring education, starve due to the world ignoring fair distribution of wealth, loose money due to making a stupid mistake, loose their wife, children or family due to being stupid, and on and on.In order for creation to be possible , that being humanity and the fun time in heaven....somebody somewhere has got to go to hell !

Otherwise none of this is possible

Now don't you feel special? I mean is there anything more important then you feeling special?

I will answer...of course not.

I donno about the wondering man.

( what century is this anyway?

[FurtherSuntime]

Originally Posted by empther

These remarks by FurtherSuntime are completely meaningless:

Explain

[PeterGStanley]

Bloodlines are very important as we can see in the Bible - possibly if God knew a person was going to choose not to follow God's will and murder , pray to false Gods and so on ( freewill ) one or many of this persons descendent could do the exact opposite and live lives dedicated to God and could be very important in Gods plan..By not creating this person God would wipe out all descendent of this person. Its Freewill that decide your fate with God. Who knows who your descendent will be and what role they play but God.

[JDaniel]

Originally Posted by Salient

I know God gives us free will and respects it, so we have the option to choose heaven or hell.

However, why would God create humans (and even the fallen angels) if He knew they were going to reject Him and then suffer eternally in hell?

Salient:

Consider this: God is Infinite. That means He covers all of duration, no beginning and no end. Further, it means that He covers all magnitude. Since He creates, He can only know finite life forms, from the moment of their creation until their demise, in an instant (as far as we are concerned). As you state, He gives us free will, but, the free will we have is not perfect. How could it be? Only God's Free Will is perfect.

As of the moment of conception He sees the entirety of a man's life in an instant. Does it sadden Him that some men go the way of least preference? Of course it does. Each and every creation of God's is an exceptionally special effort, beyond anything we can conceptualize. Each lost soul is an extraordinarily loving effort lost. A loving best friend lost forever. This sort of thing happens to all of us, but not nearly in as poignant a way.

However, He must continue creating. He is absolute fecundity. He has created for the entirety of the duration of real things. Really, I don't know if He could stop creating. It is difficult for me to conceive of a cessation of creation. As Infinite, He has no limitation. He can create a multitude of beings beyond our imaginations. Consider just this universe!

So, He creates, but, like anyone with any sense at all, He wishes that what He creates be as fully free as is possible for limited creatures. Otherwise, all He would have surrounding Him is the inanimate. Consider this: would you or I wish that on ourselves?

God's efforts are not frivolous, even though He controls all that we do (excluding our intentionalities), and it looks as though much of what we do is frivolous. He controls everything, good and bad. His purposes are purposes-unlimited. We consider and ponder and decide. He Knows and Wills without the limiting motion of consideration. But, He does not know what each of us will do until He creates us.

Primary Matter is, per Saint Thomas, likened to a repository. Each Form is a brand new created principle-of-differentiation. The merging of a Form with a hunk of Primary Matter such that it persists, is the "all" that God knows in His Eternal Instant - but, not before. (Despite some poor interpretations, due to our inability to exclude Time from our explanations.)

I know that God loves everyone equally and beyond our imagination, so it makes Him sad to see their awful outcome after life.

Yes. All the more reason to love Him relentlessly.

So wouldn't He rather that those who do not love Him above everything else to just have never existed rather than be in hell?

What do you think?

A friend pointed out that if God didn't create people or angels that would reject Him, we wouldn't be able to see God's true love as the the only people and angels that would exist would be the ones that love God above all else.

That is an excellent point.

You can't truly understand, appreciate, or see light without there being darkness. Also, then there must be no evil, so then we probably wouldn't be able to prove our love for God.

There is "good" and their is "Evil." God does not create evil. God does not encourage evil. God creates everything except each human beings intentionality. It is only our intentionality which makes a thing, or an action, evil. A bullet leaving a gun and traveling perfectly toward its target is not only not evil, but also, it is material perfection, as best as it can be. The intent of the shooter colors such an exceptional action "evil."

However, what about Jesus saying that it would have been better if Judas wasn't born.

Wouldn't you?

He wanted Judas to truly love Him and gave Him the chance to do so, but wouldn't he have rather that Judas never existed rather than for Judas to choose Hell (and then be separated from God)?

Precisely.

Is this considered one of the mysteries of God?

Yes, because God has an infinity of purposes - but we don't know what any particular purpose is. If God sees us going down the wrong path, He can remove possessions from us that He knows will force us see. He also knows the efficacy of His interventions instantly.

Whatever and however He does things is obviously the best way but I suppose it may not be something we can always comprehend.

Saints have.

God bless,
jd

[FurtherSuntime]

Originally Posted by JDaniel

Salient:

Consider this: God is Infinite. That means He covers all of duration, no beginning and no end. Further, it means that He covers all magnitude. Since He creates, He can only know finite life forms, from the moment of their creation until their demise, in an instant (as far as we are concerned). As you state, He gives us free will, but, the free will we have is not perfect. How could it be? Only God's Free Will is perfect.

As of the moment of conception He sees the entirety of a man's life in an instant. Does it sadden Him that some men go the way of least preference? Of course it does. Each and every creation of God's is an exceptionally special effort, beyond anything we can conceptualize. Each lost soul is an extraordinarily loving effort lost. A loving best friend lost forever. This sort of thing happens to all of us, but not nearly in as poignant a way.

However, He must continue creating. He is absolute fecundity. He has created for the entirety of the duration of real things. Really, I don't know if He could stop creating. It is difficult for me to conceive of a cessation of creation. As Infinite, He has no limitation. He can create a multitude of beings beyond our imaginations. Consider just this universe!

So, He creates, but, like anyone with any sense at all, He wishes that what He creates be as fully free as is possible for limited creatures. Otherwise, all He would have surrounding Him is the inanimate. Consider this: would you or I wish that on ourselves?

God's efforts are not frivolous, even though He controls all that we do (excluding our intentionalities), and it looks as though much of what we do is frivolous. He controls everything, good and bad. His purposes are purposes-unlimited. We consider and ponder and decide. He Knows and Wills without the limiting motion of consideration. But, He does not know what each of us will do until He creates us.

Primary Matter is, per Saint Thomas, likened to a repository. Each Form is a brand new created principle-of-differentiation. The merging of a Form with a hunk of Primary Matter such that it persists, is the "all" that God knows in His Eternal Instant - but, not before. (Despite some poor interpretations, due to our inability to exclude Time from our explanations.)



Yes. All the more reason to love Him relentlessly.



What do you think?



That is an excellent point.



There is "good" and their is "Evil." God does not create evil. God does not encourage evil. God creates everything except each human beings intentionality. It is only our intentionality which makes a thing, or an action, evil. A bullet leaving a gun and traveling perfectly toward its target is not only not evil, but also, it is material perfection, as best as it can be. The intent of the shooter colors such an exceptional action "evil."



Wouldn't you?



Precisely.



Yes, because God has an infinity of purposes - but we don't know what any particular purpose is. If God sees us going down the wrong path, He can remove possessions from us that He knows will force us see. He also knows the efficacy of His interventions instantly.



Saints have.

God bless,
jd

If it takes you this long to explain justice then....how do you... expect even a toddler to swallow the non-sense.?