Catholic FAQ


Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics > Moral Theology
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #1  
Old Feb 23, '12, 11:27 am
Jaaanosik Jaaanosik is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: September 29, 2011
Posts: 870
Religion: Catholic
Default Why every single marital act is supposed to be ordered to procreation...

If God through the laws of nature does not intend for a marital act to be procreative each time.
Well, let's see Humanae Vitae:
Quote:
God has wisely ordered laws of nature and the incidence of fertility in such a way that successive births are already naturally spaced through the inherent operation of these laws. The Church, nevertheless, in urging men to the observance of the precepts of the natural law, which it interprets by its constant doctrine, teaches that each and every marital act must of necessity retain its intrinsic relationship to the procreation of human life.
The Church, nevertheless,..., teaches that each and every marital act must of necessity retain its intrinsic relationship to the procreation of human life.

The Church ignores the God's natural law and teaches otherwise.
Why?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old Feb 23, '12, 11:34 am
kwitz kwitz is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: June 3, 2004
Posts: 730
Religion: cradle Catholic
Default Re: Why every single marital act is supposed to be ordered to procreation...

If I'm understanding your point correctly, I think you've misunderstood the definition of procreative. Procreative does NOT mean fertile. You can have procreative sex even when currently pregnant or post-menopause.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old Mar 4, '12, 5:37 pm
mark a mark a is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2004
Posts: 7,203
Religion: Catholic, Roman Rite, religious not spiritual but trying
Default Re: Why every single marital act is supposed to be ordered to procreation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leontes View Post
No, by definition, a procreative act is an act capable of reproducing. Any sexual activity other than intercourse when I women is actually able to conceive is not procreative. Sex at any time other than when a woman is in a state of her cycle where she can be impregnated is not procreative. That is the meaning of the word.

What is commonly called procreative in Christian parlance would more accurately be called acts which mimic acts which are procreative. There is a difference.
Man, that's what I call splittin' hairs.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old Feb 23, '12, 11:34 am
thewanderer thewanderer is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: February 6, 2012
Posts: 5,009
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Why every single marital act is supposed to be ordered to procreation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaaanosik View Post
If God through the laws of nature does not intend for a marital act to be procreative each time.
Well, let's see Humanae Vitae:


The Church, nevertheless,..., teaches that each and every marital act must of necessity retain its intrinsic relationship to the procreation of human life.

The Church ignores the God's natural law and teaches otherwise.
Why?
Before trying to help explain this, could you let explain what you believe the phrase " each and every marital act must of necessity retain it's intrinsic relationship to the procreation of human life" I believe your problem most likely stems from a misunderstanding of this statement, so it would probably be easier to explain it to you if you could make this more clear.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old Feb 23, '12, 11:39 am
Bookcat Bookcat is online now
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: January 14, 2009
Posts: 19,070
Religion: Christian! Catholic! Disciple of Jesus of Nazareth!
Default Re: Why every single marital act is supposed to be ordered to procreation...

The Church does not ignore God's Natural Law...(and by the way that is not the meaning of the term "natural law" as it is used in theology).

The Marital Act is by nature to be unitive and procreative (open to life). So yes each and every Marital Act must be open to life (even when the couple is infertile).

Compendium issued by Pope Benedict XVI

495. What are the goods of conjugal love to which sexuality is ordered?

2360-2361
2397-2398

The goods of conjugal love, which for those who are baptized is sanctified by the sacrament of Matrimony, are unity, fidelity, indissolubility, and an openness to the procreation of life.

496. What is the meaning of the conjugal act?

2362-2367

The conjugal act has a twofold meaning: unitive (the mutual self-giving of the spouses) and procreative (an openness to the transmission of life). No one may break the inseparable connection which God has established between these two meanings of the conjugal act by excluding one or the other of them.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/compen...um-ccc_en.html
__________________
VIVAS IN DEO
IHCOY XPICTOY
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old Feb 23, '12, 1:16 pm
Jaaanosik Jaaanosik is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: September 29, 2011
Posts: 870
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Why every single marital act is supposed to be ordered to procreation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bookcat View Post
The Church does not ignore God's Natural Law...(and by the way that is not the meaning of the term "natural law" as it is used in theology).

The Marital Act is by nature to be unitive and procreative (open to life). So yes each and every Marital Act must be open to life (even when the couple is infertile).

Compendium issued by Pope Benedict XVI

495. What are the goods of conjugal love to which sexuality is ordered?

2360-2361
2397-2398

The goods of conjugal love, which for those who are baptized is sanctified by the sacrament of Matrimony, are unity, fidelity, indissolubility, and an openness to the procreation of life.

496. What is the meaning of the conjugal act?

2362-2367

The conjugal act has a twofold meaning: unitive (the mutual self-giving of the spouses) and procreative (an openness to the transmission of life). No one may break the inseparable connection which God has established between these two meanings of the conjugal act by excluding one or the other of them.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/compen...um-ccc_en.html
Let me clarify; saying God's natural laws I meant laws of nature designed by God.
If I meant moral order I would say God's Natural Law.
Having said that we observer the laws of nature as HV stated. Procreation/possibility to transfer life is not present all the time by God's design.
Logical conclusion would be that not every marital act is required to be procreative.
Nevertheless, the Church says the other way.

Your quotes are nice but I am asking how and why these quotes came to be.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old Feb 23, '12, 1:31 pm
VeritasLuxMea VeritasLuxMea is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: May 17, 2011
Posts: 4,818
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Why every single marital act is supposed to be ordered to procreation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaaanosik View Post
Let me clarify; saying God's natural laws I meant laws of nature designed by God.
If I meant moral order I would say God's Natural Law.
Having said that we observer the laws of nature as HV stated. Procreation/possibility to transfer life is not present all the time by God's design.
Logical conclusion would be that not every marital act is required to be procreative.
Nevertheless, the Church says the other way.
If I understand you correctly, God doesn't allow a situation in which a woman can be fertile 100% of the time. Yes, true.

Nor is fertility required by the Church in every martial act.

The Church is merely saying not to interfere with God's design.

Artificial birth control, whether it is used in a time of fertility or not, is intended to interfere with God's design. That is its very purpose.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old Feb 23, '12, 2:24 pm
Jaaanosik Jaaanosik is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: September 29, 2011
Posts: 870
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Why every single marital act is supposed to be ordered to procreation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by VeritasLuxMea View Post
If I understand you correctly, God doesn't allow a situation in which a woman can be fertile 100% of the time. Yes, true.

Nor is fertility required by the Church in every martial act.

The Church is merely saying not to interfere with God's design.

Artificial birth control, whether it is used in a time of fertility or not, is intended to interfere with God's design. That is its very purpose.
Martial act? sorry could not resist.

What do you mean interfere? God gave us a rational mind. We use it and interfere with God's design in many places and I am sure He does not mind.
We are not supposed to fly and we fly, why do you take antibiotics and interfere, why do we do heart surgeries and interfere, ...?
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old Feb 23, '12, 2:46 pm
VeritasLuxMea VeritasLuxMea is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: May 17, 2011
Posts: 4,818
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Why every single marital act is supposed to be ordered to procreation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaaanosik View Post
Martial act? sorry could not resist.
We Catholics are so repressed that we can't even use the s-e-x word, we have to use euphemisms for anything s-e-x related.

Quote:
What do you mean interfere? God gave us a rational mind. We use it and interfere with God's design in many places and I am sure He does not mind.
We are not supposed to fly and we fly, why do you take antibiotics and interfere, why do we do heart surgeries and interfere, ...?
Consider the circumstances here: flying vs. thwarting life.

God loves life, we know this, this is evident from scripture. God expresses no such love for keeping people on the ground (Tower of Babel notwithstanding).
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old Feb 23, '12, 2:56 pm
Jaaanosik Jaaanosik is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: September 29, 2011
Posts: 870
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Why every single marital act is supposed to be ordered to procreation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by VeritasLuxMea View Post
We Catholics are so repressed that we can't even use the s-e-x word, we have to use euphemisms for anything s-e-x related.



Consider the circumstances here: flying vs. thwarting life.

God loves life, we know this, this is evident from scripture. God expresses no such love for keeping people on the ground (Tower of Babel notwithstanding).
It was typed mar-t-i-a-l not mar-i-t-a-l. Nothing else, that's why I said SCNR
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old Feb 23, '12, 2:58 pm
VeritasLuxMea VeritasLuxMea is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: May 17, 2011
Posts: 4,818
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Why every single marital act is supposed to be ordered to procreation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaaanosik View Post
It was typed mar-t-i-a-l not mar-i-t-a-l. Nothing else, that's why I said SCNR
Oops, my mistake. Darn, I do know how to spell it and I know the differences between the words, I just didn't see that I had a typo there. Sorry.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old Feb 24, '12, 3:51 pm
KCT KCT is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: June 5, 2004
Posts: 5,992
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Why every single marital act is supposed to be ordered to procreation...

"Ordered to" and "open to" are 2 different things.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old Feb 23, '12, 1:48 pm
Bookcat Bookcat is online now
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: January 14, 2009
Posts: 19,070
Religion: Christian! Catholic! Disciple of Jesus of Nazareth!
Default Re: Why every single marital act is supposed to be ordered to procreation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaaanosik View Post
Let me clarify; saying God's natural laws I meant laws of nature designed by God.
If I meant moral order I would say God's Natural Law.
Having said that we observer the laws of nature as HV stated. Procreation/possibility to transfer life is not present all the time by God's design.
Logical conclusion would be that not every marital act is required to be procreative.
Nevertheless, the Church says the other way.

Your quotes are nice but I am asking how and why these quotes came to be.
Tis the nature of the marital act.

HV is speaking there of our observing not the laws of nature but refers to the "observance of the precepts of the natural law" HV is speaking to the moral order.

But sure ...not every martial act will end up being fertile...but each one must be open to life. The unitive and procreative cannot be separated or you do not have then a marital act. We cannot use contraception etc to frustrate the nature of the marital act.

(by the way one cannot also separate the unitive either..I cannot "use" my wife for children...)

It can be a good suggestion to get perhaps a book that can go into detail for you...such as http://shop.catholic.com/product.php...&cat=20&page=1

I have not read it but it seems to fit the bill
__________________
VIVAS IN DEO
IHCOY XPICTOY
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old Feb 23, '12, 2:51 pm
Jaaanosik Jaaanosik is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: September 29, 2011
Posts: 870
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Why every single marital act is supposed to be ordered to procreation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bookcat View Post
Tis the nature of the marital act.

HV is speaking there of our observing not the laws of nature but refers to the "observance of the precepts of the natural law" HV is speaking to the moral order.

But sure ...not every martial act will end up being fertile...but each one must be open to life. The unitive and procreative cannot be separated or you do not have then a marital act. We cannot use contraception etc to frustrate the nature of the marital act.

(by the way one cannot also separate the unitive either..I cannot "use" my wife for children...)

It can be a good suggestion to get perhaps a book that can go into detail for you...such as http://shop.catholic.com/product.php...&cat=20&page=1

I have not read it but it seems to fit the bill
The first sentence of the HV quote 'says': "We recognize God's laws of nature ..."
The second sentence 'says': "NEVERTHELESS the moral order will be like this and we'll call it natural law on top of that."
Where is a logic behind it?
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old Feb 23, '12, 5:03 pm
Bookcat Bookcat is online now
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: January 14, 2009
Posts: 19,070
Religion: Christian! Catholic! Disciple of Jesus of Nazareth!
Default Re: Why every single marital act is supposed to be ordered to procreation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaaanosik View Post
The first sentence of the HV quote 'says': "We recognize God's laws of nature ..."
The second sentence 'says': "NEVERTHELESS the moral order will be like this and we'll call it natural law on top of that."
Where is a logic behind it?

11. The sexual activity, in which husband and wife are intimately and chastely united with one another, through which human life is transmitted, is, as the recent Council recalled, "noble and worthy.'' (11) It does not, moreover, cease to be legitimate even when, for reasons independent of their will, it is foreseen to be infertile. For its natural adaptation to the expression and strengthening of the union of husband and wife is not thereby suppressed. The fact is, as experience shows, that new life is not the result of each and every act of sexual intercourse. God has wisely ordered laws of nature and the incidence of fertility in such a way that successive births are already naturally spaced through the inherent operation of these laws. The Church, nevertheless, in urging men to the observance of the precepts of the natural law, which it interprets by its constant doctrine, teaches that each and every marital act must of necessity retain its intrinsic relationship to the procreation of human life. (12)


These two sentences are connected. The fact that new life is not the result of each and every act ....does not change the moral reality that each and every act must be marital ...it must be unitive and open to life. That is the point. Marriage acts need both the unitive and procreative (openness to life). Sex is intimately involved with both the union of the husband and wife and openness to life.

As Bl. Pope John Paul II noted:

"In the conjugal act it is not licit to separate the unitive aspect from the procreative aspect, because both the one and the other pertain to the intimate truth of the conjugal act. The one is activated together with the other and in a certain sense the one by means of the other. Therefore, in such a case the conjugal act, deprived of its interior truth because it is artificially deprived of its procreative capacity, ceases also to be an act of love."

~ Bl. Pope John Paul II General Audience, August 22, 1984

I really suggest getting that book I noted above....it should be very helpful.
__________________
VIVAS IN DEO
IHCOY XPICTOY

Last edited by Bookcat; Feb 23, '12 at 5:22 pm.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics > Moral Theology

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



Prayer Intentions

Most Active Groups
8376Meet and talk,talk talk
Last by: svid2
5102CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: mountee
4417Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: daughterstm
4037OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: eschator83
3859SOLITUDE
Last by: Prairie Rose
3697Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: RJB
3269Poems and Reflections
Last by: PathWalker
3264Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: Amiciel
3218Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: memphian
3094For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: flower lady



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 7:39 am.

Home RSS Feeds - Home - Archive - Top

Copyright © 2004-2014, Catholic Answers.