The Earth - Not Abortion - Should Be Central Catholic Theme!

[trickster]

Well as usual, this posting will increase my fan club...but trust me the posting is a thought in process.

If we as Catholics believe that our central issue should be the preservation of life and that we ought to defend those who cannot defend themselves in the abortion issue; then ought we not to expand that thinking with respect to the earth.

The Catholic position on abortion as the highest ranking issue from which all our other issues (i.e. war, starvation, miscarriage of justice, racism, economic disparity...you know little things like that) must outweigh the 99% for that 1%; my take is a bit different.

First of all, I find the position anthro-centric...as if humanity is the only dynamic that counts in creation and that the human life is somehow more valuable than an eco-system, a tree or a rat! Our western roots as a church views creation as a hierarchial format of resources to be exploited and "serve the dignity of man?"; where many of us see creation as a lateral inter-connected network of existence.

For those of us who take the second view of creation and a perception of reality, the earth is the source of life, there are many endangered species and ecosystems all because of development demand; we have too many people on earth as it is (or do we)? Or do we have too many people on earth who cannot live in community, in more ecologically consistent manners? Did not Pope Paul VI say that we don't have a food shortage problem on the globe we have a distribution (capitalist) problem....that's the kind of global views that I am talking about....

I, of course, do not separate humans from creation therefore we need to be pro-life, I am only arguing that we should take that thinking, that feeling and that passion about the unborn child and apply it to the rest of creation in the same fervor. The earth feeds us, shelters us...and yet...we as humans are the virus of the earth that is in the process of destroying her.

If we believe in the dignity of life, then shouldn't we define that "life" as all of creation? Saints like Francis of Assisi have looked at that eco-theological perspective...so that is why I say the earth and not abortion should be our central theme of life, the dignity of life and the defence of those unable to defend themselves (i.e. ecosystems) cause of the development and life-style choices we mistake for dignity as human beings; this focus point too is more holistic and the defence of the unborn child will come naturally from a reordered priority of the sacred.

Bruce
Trickster (Aboriginal Symbol for Transformation)

[Kenny Kamel]

Originally Posted by trickster

Our western roots as a church views creation as a hierarchial format of resources to be exploited and "serve the dignity of man?

Man was created to have dominion over all creation.

For those of us who take the second view of creation and a perception of reality, the earth is the source of life, there are many endangered species and ecosystems all because of development demand; we have too many people on earth as it is (or do we)?

I agree there has been too much done in the way of destroying parts of the earth, I gladly support reasonable efforts against ecological destruction. Overpopulation is a myth, one particularly espoused by the same people who press the pro-abortion, pro-contraception, pro-sterlization agenda. They disregard facts like that many countries throughout the world project to have major labor shortages within the next 10-25 years among many other issues due to families not having as many children as in decades past.

Did not Pope Paul VI say that we don't have a food shortage problem on the globe we have a distribution (capitalist) problem....that's the kind of global views that I am talking about....

I don't think its a capitalist problem, for example the U.S. sends tons upon tons of food to places like Africa and North Korea only to have the ruling regimes of those countries hold that food for their militaries and withhold it from the people that truly do need so they can impose their will on said people. America alone produces an abundance of food that could easily feed every mouth around the globe, but distribution is the problem whether it be getting the food there or making sure the people who need it get it.

I, of course, do not separate humans from creation therefore we need to be pro-life, I am only arguing that we should take that thinking, that feeling and that passion about the unborn child and apply it to the rest of creation in the same fervor. The earth feeds us, shelters us...and yet...we as humans are the virus of the earth that is in the process of destroying her.

Likening humankind to a virus is quite the misanthropic statement, I'm go ahead ahead and lump anyone with such sentiments in with those aforementioned overpopulation whackos.

Frankly I defer to Jesus who said that this world will pass away, but his word will not. I'm all for being a good steward of the Earth but not to the exclusion of God's Will for my life and the lives of all those around me.

[grasscutter]

What if one the the babies aborted was the one who could have developed a technology that would greatly help the environment, or solve world hunger, or broker peace in the Middle East, etc.

[healonzo]

Originally Posted by grasscutter

What if one the the babies aborted was the one who could have developed a technology that would greatly help the environment, or solve world hunger, or broker peace in the Middle East, etc.

More important is that what if one of the babies aborted is loved by God more than the earth. Wouldn't the value of the human being be immeasurable? God loves all human life, the poor on the streets are as valuable as the people who are like Mozart who compose masterpieces.

[trickster]

Originally Posted by healonzo

More important is that what if one of the babies aborted is loved by God more than the earth. Wouldn't the value of the human being be immeasurable? God loves all human life, the poor on the streets are as valuable as the people who are like Mozart who compose masterpieces.

Healonzo, I know you prefaced your question with "what if" ...then God love babies more than the earth....but do you believe God loves human beings beyond the rest of His or Her creation?

Bruce

[trickster]

Originally Posted by grasscutter

What if one the the babies aborted was the one who could have developed a technology that would greatly help the environment, or solve world hunger, or broker peace in the Middle East, etc.

TOTALLY AGREED! Thanks Grasscutter (why do I wanna call you Grasshopper - do you remember that 70's series)?

Bruce

[grasscutter]

Originally Posted by trickster

TOTALLY AGREED! Thanks Grasscutter (why do I wanna call you Grasshopper - do you remember that 70's series)?

Bruce

Tee Hee! I sure do! And I don't mind being grasshopper.

[TheRealJuliane]

Originally Posted by grasscutter

What if one the the babies aborted was the one who could have developed a technology that would greatly help the environment, or solve world hunger, or broker peace in the Middle East, etc.

With over 50 million babies aborted just in the US since 1973, I think I can guarantee that lots and lots of things *might* have happened, that haven't. Just imagine who all these people might have been, what they might have done.

It makes me sad every day.

[sedonaman]

Originally Posted by TheRealJuliane

... Just imagine who all these people might have been, what they might have done. ...

This was the theme of the movie, It's a Wonderful Life.

[TheRealJuliane]

Originally Posted by sedonaman

This was the theme of the movie, It's a Wonderful Life.

Well, sort of. I guess we are living in a world without all those George Baileys (and all those Mary Hatchs).

[trickster]

Originally Posted by Kenny Kamel

Man was created to have dominion over all creation.

I agree there has been too much done in the way of destroying parts of the earth, I gladly support reasonable efforts against ecological destruction. Overpopulation is a myth, one particularly espoused by the same people who press the pro-abortion, pro-contraception, pro-sterlization agenda. They disregard facts like that many countries throughout the world project to have major labor shortages within the next 10-25 years among many other issues due to families not having as many children as in decades past.

I don't think its a capitalist problem, for example the U.S. sends tons upon tons of food to places like Africa and North Korea only to have the ruling regimes of those countries hold that food for their militaries and withhold it from the people that truly do need so they can impose their will on said people. America alone produces an abundance of food that could easily feed every mouth around the globe, but distribution is the problem whether it be getting the food there or making sure the people who need it get it.

Likening humankind to a virus is quite the misanthropic statement, I'm go ahead ahead and lump anyone with such sentiments in with those aforementioned overpopulation whackos.

Frankly I defer to Jesus who said that this world will pass away, but his word will not. I'm all for being a good steward of the Earth but not to the exclusion of God's Will for my life and the lives of all those around me.

Well Kenny, we actually agree on most things! Thanks for those points, never thought about labour shortages, that is a good point. The point of dictators is also very good and I agree with you.

The two points; humanity having dominion over the earth and "virus" statements on my part; let me explain the latter first. In terms of "virus statements' - well I was on a roll in my writing... BUT like little bugs we are eating up everything in site and yes we are destroying the world...the world will pass away...but so will our lives...should we neglect our lives, our bodies, our health, our minds? Eternal truths that Jesus speaks about are - of course - eternal..

In terms of "dominion over the earth"...what exactly does that mean? The words may be in scripture, but how we understand those words are also culturally defined...and in our church today... we define them in the most western colonial manner we can....HOWEVER...have you read what JP II wrote about with respect to understanding those words...I believe we are in agreement with him in that humanity also has a responsibility to care for the earth...as well...

And when I say that I am not an environmental purist, I believe Canadian oil should be sent down to Texas for refining and distribution...I am also for alternative technologies and long for the day those electric cars, etc., will be accessible to all of us in terms of affordability.

Anyways, look forward to your thoughts

Bruce

[edwest2]

Originally Posted by trickster

Well Kenny, we actually agree on most things! Thanks for those points, never thought about labour shortages, that is a good point. The point of dictators is also very good and I agree with you.

The two points; humanity having dominion over the earth and "virus" statements on my part; let me explain the latter first. In terms of "virus statements' - well I was on a roll in my writing... BUT like little bugs we are eating up everything in site and yes we are destroying the world...the world will pass away...but so will our lives...should we neglect our lives, our bodies, our health, our minds? Eternal truths that Jesus speaks about are - of course - eternal..

In terms of "dominion over the earth"...what exactly does that mean? The words may be in scripture, but how we understand those words are also culturally defined...and in our church today... we define them in the most western colonial manner we can....HOWEVER...have you read what JP II wrote about with respect to understanding those words...I believe we are in agreement with him in that humanity also has a responsibility to care for the earth...as well...

And when I say that I am not an environmental purist, I believe Canadian oil should be sent down to Texas for refining and distribution...I am also for alternative technologies and long for the day those electric cars, etc., will be accessible to all of us in terms of affordability.

Anyways, look forward to your thoughts

Bruce

What will be used to generate the electricity to power/recharge electric cars?




peace,
Ed

[sedonaman]

Originally Posted by trickster

Well as usual, this posting will increase my fan club...but trust me the posting is a thought in process.

If we as Catholics believe that our central issue should be the preservation of life and that we ought to defend those who cannot defend themselves in the abortion issue; then ought we not to expand that thinking with respect to the earth.

The Catholic position on abortion as the highest ranking issue from which all our other issues (i.e. war, starvation, miscarriage of justice, racism, economic disparity...you know little things like that) must outweigh the 99% for that 1%; my take is a bit different.

First of all, I find the position anthro-centric...as if humanity is the only dynamic that counts in creation and that the human life is somehow more valuable than an eco-system, a tree or a rat! Our western roots as a church views creation as a hierarchial format of resources to be exploited and "serve the dignity of man?"; where many of us see creation as a lateral inter-connected network of existence.

For those of us who take the second view of creation and a perception of reality, the earth is the source of life, there are many endangered species and ecosystems all because of development demand; we have too many people on earth as it is (or do we)? Or do we have too many people on earth who cannot live in community, in more ecologically consistent manners? Did not Pope Paul VI say that we don't have a food shortage problem on the globe we have a distribution (capitalist) problem....that's the kind of global views that I am talking about....

I, of course, do not separate humans from creation therefore we need to be pro-life, I am only arguing that we should take that thinking, that feeling and that passion about the unborn child and apply it to the rest of creation in the same fervor. The earth feeds us, shelters us...and yet...we as humans are the virus of the earth that is in the process of destroying her.

If we believe in the dignity of life, then shouldn't we define that "life" as all of creation? Saints like Francis of Assisi have looked at that eco-theological perspective...so that is why I say the earth and not abortion should be our central theme of life, the dignity of life and the defence of those unable to defend themselves (i.e. ecosystems) cause of the development and life-style choices we mistake for dignity as human beings; this focus point too is more holistic and the defence of the unborn child will come naturally from a reordered priority of the sacred.

Bruce
Trickster (Aboriginal Symbol for Transformation)

More earth worship. Man, not rats, trees, the earth, etc., is made in the image and likeness of God. The earth and its creatures were created to help man with his material needs, not for man to worship them.

[paulsimons]

The whole thing on abortion is that animals have sex. Its what animals do, and during the act of sex we sometimes get pregnant. Now I know your "well abstain from sex" Well unfortunatly that doesnt work. Abstinance only works some of the time, when a creature (ie humans) decide its time for sex they go out and do it. Look I would be all for it if it worked but it doesnt work. Humans want to live longer and longer through science but yet we dont want to take in consideration that we all cannot be here. The reason the earth is being destroyed is do to the fact that we think we can just keep pushing for more growth and we cannot. Me and my girlfriend have made a vow to use contraception for the rest of our lives because we donnot want to contribute to a world that is literally destroying itself.

We all cannot or should not have a baby. You decide whats right for you and stop guilting people into doing what you do. Nuture what is already here and stop creating so much hate. Like I said before we want to all live longer and longer with science but dont want to use science to ensure we dont all recede into oblivion do to overpopulation.

Abstainace has proven to not work all of the time, and contriception has proved to work almost 100% of the time. So choose whats right for you. Create loving compassionante relationships with the people around you no matter what they choose. Remeber these are people who are already here, who have already been born who already have friends families, jobs, lives, and even have had an acctual breath of fresh air.

ps i didnt even cover rape, finacial burden etc... Also check out this infographic it has a bunch of cool info.

http://images.blippitt.com/wp-conten...-education.gif

[fix]

Originally Posted by paulsimons

The whole thing on abortion is that animals have sex. Its what animals do, and during the act of sex we sometimes get pregnant. Now I know your "well abstain from sex" Well unfortunatly that doesnt work. Abstinance only works some of the time, when a creature (ie humans) decide its time for sex they go out and do it.

Do humans have free will and can they reason? Or, are they just "animals"?

Look I would be all for it if it worked but it doesnt work. Humans want to live longer and longer through science but yet we dont want to take in consideration that we all cannot be here. The reason the earth is being destroyed is do to the fact that we think we can just keep pushing for more growth and we cannot. Me and my girlfriend have made a vow to use contraception for the rest of our lives because we donnot want to contribute to a world that is literally destroying itself.

So humans are the problem?

We all cannot or should not have a baby. You decide whats right for you and stop guilting people into doing what you do.

So what is right is relative?

Abstainace has proven to not work all of the time, and contriception has proved to work almost 100% of the time. So choose whats right for you. Create loving compassionante relationships with the people around you no matter what they choose. Remeber these are people who are already here, who have already been born who already have friends families, jobs, lives, and even have had an acctual breath of fresh air.

Those born get the right to decide in your vision?