Baptists & Salvation - Inaugurated Eschatology

[stewstew03]

I recently listened to a local Southern Baptist pastor describe salvation as akin to "inaugurated eschatology." His point was that although we are already justified by the blood of Christ, the born-again believer must continue to walk with God and serve in obedience to Him. Is this any different than the Catholic position?

Where Southern Baptists say that we may differ is on the issue of whether we can lose our salvation. The faithful SBC-follower claims we can't. But at the same time, they question the salvation of those who have received Christ and yet continue to backslide in their sin (hence the suspicion of Catholics - who say they are Christians, but yet worship idols, worship Mary, etc.). The Catholic would say those who continue to sin are separated from God. The SBC-follower would say those who continue to sin lose their joy and bring discipline upon themselves. Is there really a difference here? If someone loses their joy, are they not separated from God?

Isn't this just semantics?

As a former SBC-follower, my firm belief is that Southern Baptists actually subscribe to many Catholic beliefs (or at the very least are much closer to Catholic doctrine than Reformed doctrine), but out of spite for "Rome," Baptists desperately cling to the Reformation in an effort to distance themselves from their Catholic brethren.

[Stilldreamn]

Originally Posted by stewstew03

The Catholic would say those who continue to sin are separated from God. The SBC-follower would say those who continue to sin lose their joy and bring discipline upon themselves. Is there really a difference here? If someone loses their joy, are they not separated from God?

Isn't this just semantics?

I wonder what "discipline" means in their view? Temporal? Sin has consequences here on earth, whether confessed or not.

[stewstew03]

Originally Posted by Stilldreamn

I wonder what "discipline" means in their view? Temporal? Sin has consequences here on earth, whether confessed or not.

Yes, when they refer to God's discipline they mean here on earth. But they also recognize that God requires perfection before we enter Heaven - so why are they opposed to Purgatory? Probably because (1) the word isn't mentioned in the bible; and (2) it's a Catholic doctrine.

[IggyAntiochus]

Originally Posted by stewstew03

Yes, when they refer to God's discipline they mean here on earth. But they also recognize that God requires perfection before we enter Heaven - so why are they opposed to Purgatory? Probably because (1) the word isn't mentioned in the bible; and (2) it's a Catholic doctrine.

Because the means by which we are perfect in God's sight is different in Baptist theology, rendering purgatory unnecessary.

[Calgar]

Originally Posted by Stilldreamn

Sin has consequences here on earth, whether confessed or not.

This.

My children may apologize for their transgressions, but they still have to pay a price.

[Anna Scott]

Originally Posted by Stilldreamn

I wonder what "discipline" means in their view? Temporal? Sin has consequences here on earth, whether confessed or not.

Originally Posted by Calgar

This.

My children may apologize for their transgressions, but they still have to pay a price.

Stilldreamn & Calgar,
I agree. Even when we confess our sins and God forgives us; there are still consequences set into motion by our actions.

Peace,
Anna

[Calgar]

Originally Posted by Calgar

This.

My children may apologize for their transgressions, but they still have to pay a price.

I want to add that it's out of love that there is a price for my childrens transgressions. It's punishment that often brings about understanding and maturity (maturaty? I can't spell.).

[Anna Scott]

Originally Posted by stewstew03

[size="3"]. . . .As a former SBC-follower, my firm belief is that Southern Baptists actually subscribe to many Catholic beliefs (or at the very least are much closer to Catholic doctrine than Reformed doctrine). . . .

stewstew03,
I'm also a former Southern Baptists; I would say SB beliefs are far from Catholic beliefs.

Southern Baptist beliefs include:

Support teaching Scientific Creationism in Schools. (Resolution On Scientific Creationism, June 1982. Link: http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/amresolution.asp?id=967)

Reject religious tradition as a "supplement" to the teaching of the Bible. Though they do quote John Smyth 1610, and Thomas Armitage 1890. Link: http://www.sbts.edu/documents/cpc/Ec...Guidelines.pdf

Reject infant Baptism, believing infant baptism rests upon human tradition rather than biblical teaching. Link: http://www.sbts.edu/documents/cpc/Ec...Guidelines.pdf

Sola scriptura---the Bible is the sole authority for faith and practice. Link: http://www.sbts.edu/documents/cpc/Ec...Guidelines.pdf

One is saved/born again through praying the Sinner's Prayer. Link: http://www.sbc.net/knowjesus/theplan.asp

Two "ordinances of Christ" are commemorative/symbolic and are not considered to impart any type of grace (http://www.sbts.edu/documents/cpc/Ec...Guidelines.pdf)
1. Believer's baptism by immersion is the first step of discipleship and is a profession of faith. The Salvation experience with Christ is a prerequisite to Baptism. Link: http://www.sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp#i; http://www.sbts.edu/documents/cpc/Ec...Guidelines.pdf

2. The Lord's Supper is a symbolic act of obedience, a remembrance and enactment---through which the death of the Redeemer is memorialized, and His second coming anticipated. Believer’s Baptism by immersion and right fellowship with their church is necessary to partake of the Lord's Supper.
Link: http://www.sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp#i; http://www.sbts.edu/documents/cpc/Ec...Guidelines.pdf.

Peace,
Anna.

[stewstew03]

Originally Posted by Anna Scott

stewstew03,
I'm also a former Southern Baptists; I would say SB beliefs are far from Catholic beliefs.

Southern Baptist beliefs include:

Support teaching Scientific Creationism in Schools. (Resolution On Scientific Creationism, June 1982. Link: http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/amresolution.asp?id=967)

Reject religious tradition as a "supplement" to the teaching of the Bible. Though they do quote John Smyth 1610, and Thomas Armitage 1890. Link: http://www.sbts.edu/documents/cpc/Ec...Guidelines.pdf

Reject infant Baptism, believing infant baptism rests upon human tradition rather than biblical teaching. Link: http://www.sbts.edu/documents/cpc/Ec...Guidelines.pdf

Sola scriptura---the Bible is the sole authority for faith and practice. Link: http://www.sbts.edu/documents/cpc/Ec...Guidelines.pdf

One is saved/born again through praying the Sinner's Prayer. Link: http://www.sbc.net/knowjesus/theplan.asp

Two "ordinances of Christ" are commemorative/symbolic and are not considered to impart any type of grace (http://www.sbts.edu/documents/cpc/Ec...Guidelines.pdf)
1. Believer's baptism by immersion is the first step of discipleship and is a profession of faith. The Salvation experience with Christ is a prerequisite to Baptism. Link: http://www.sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp#i; http://www.sbts.edu/documents/cpc/Ec...Guidelines.pdf

2. The Lord's Supper is a symbolic act of obedience, a remembrance and enactment---through which the death of the Redeemer is memorialized, and His second coming anticipated. Believer’s Baptism by immersion and right fellowship with their church is necessary to partake of the Lord's Supper.
Link: http://www.sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp#i; http://www.sbts.edu/documents/cpc/Ec...Guidelines.pdf.

Peace,
Anna.

Yes, but you're responding to a claim I haven't made. Please note the title of the thread. The topic is much narrower.

[Anna Scott]

Originally Posted by stewstew03

. . . .As a former SBC-follower, my firm belief is that Southern Baptists actually subscribe to many Catholic beliefs (or at the very least are much closer to Catholic doctrine than Reformed doctrine), but out of spite for "Rome," Baptists desperately cling to the Reformation in an effort to distance themselves from their Catholic brethren.

Originally Posted by stewstew03

Yes, but you're responding to a claim I haven't made. Please note the title of the thread. The topic is much narrower.

I was responding to your statement, "my firm belief is that Southern Baptists actually subscribe to many Catholic beliefs (or at the very least are much closer to Catholic doctrine than Reformed doctrine)."

I didn't realize that statement was off limits. I'll step out of the discussion.

Peace,
Anna

[stewstew03]

Originally Posted by Anna Scott

I was responding to your statement, "my firm belief is that Southern Baptists actually subscribe to many Catholic beliefs (or at the very least are much closer to Catholic doctrine than Reformed doctrine)."

I didn't realize that statement was off limits. I'll step out of the discussion.

Peace,
Anna

Well, you're right to point out my overstatement, Anna. Please re-join the discussion.

[Anna Scott]

Originally Posted by stewstew03

Well, you're right to point out my overstatement, Anna. Please re-join the discussion.

stewstew03,

Thanks.

I always respect the OP. It's your thread and you have the right to define the boundaries of the discussion.

Peace,
Anna

[IggyAntiochus]

Originally Posted by stewstew03

I recently listened to a local Southern Baptist pastor describe salvation as akin to "inaugurated eschatology." His point was that although we are already justified by the blood of Christ, the born-again believer must continue to walk with God and serve in obedience to Him. Is this any different than the Catholic position?

Where Southern Baptists say that we may differ is on the issue of whether we can lose our salvation. The faithful SBC-follower claims we can't. But at the same time, they question the salvation of those who have received Christ and yet continue to backslide in their sin (hence the suspicion of Catholics - who say they are Christians, but yet worship idols, worship Mary, etc.). The Catholic would say those who continue to sin are separated from God. The SBC-follower would say those who continue to sin lose their joy and bring discipline upon themselves. Is there really a difference here? If someone loses their joy, are they not separated from God?

Separated from God in the sense that they would see the closer communion they have with God suffer due to their actions. Similar to how a child will feel guilty about a wrong committed against their father and there may be a temporary rift in the relationship. I would see this as vastly different than the Catholic understanding of what happens to a soul that commits mortal sin. It isn't a separation unto eternal punishment.

As a former SBC-follower, my firm belief is that Southern Baptists actually subscribe to many Catholic beliefs (or at the very least are much closer to Catholic doctrine than Reformed doctrine), but out of spite for "Rome," Baptists desperately cling to the Reformation in an effort to distance themselves from their Catholic brethren.

Well, I would label Baptist doctrine Reformed because it subscribes to most of the chief tenants of the Reformed wing of the Reformation, with the exception of infant baptism and more often than not the understanding of predestination (though some Baptists are Calvinistic on that). They would, of course, share the Catholic understanding of the Person of Christ, the Trinity, heaven, hell, etc. but so would the Reformed.

[stewstew03]

Originally Posted by IggyAntiochus

Separated from God in the sense that they would see the closer communion they have with God suffer due to their actions. Similar to how a child will feel guilty about a wrong committed against their father and there may be a temporary rift in the relationship.

Forgive me for asking, but which document (or other evidence) are you pointing to...?
It's been my experience (as a former southern baptist) that only true believers are saved. A true believer is someone who recognizes their sins, turns from them, turns to God, and grows in their walk with Him. Baptists do not believe that just because someone says the "sinner's prayer", and yet continues to sin, that he/she will be saved. There must be evidence of a Christian's "true belief" (i.e., righteousness).

I would see this as vastly different than the Catholic understanding of what happens to a soul that commits mortal sin. It isn't a separation unto eternal punishment.

I would too, but only if I accepted your unproven premise as true (see supra).

Well, I would label Baptist doctrine Reformed because it subscribes to most of the chief tenants of the Reformed wing of the Reformation, with the exception of infant baptism and more often than not the understanding of predestination (though some Baptists are Calvinistic on that).

Southern Baptists do not subscribe to the traditional five points of Calvinism (TULIP).

They would, of course, share the Catholic understanding of the Person of Christ, the Trinity, heaven, hell, etc. but so would the Reformed.

Glad to hear you value Tradition.

[IggyAntiochus]

Originally Posted by stewstew03

[size="3"]Forgive me for asking, but which document (or other evidence) are you pointing to...?
It's been my experience (as a former southern baptist) that only true believers are saved. A true believer is someone who recognizes their sins, turns from them, turns to God, and grows in their walk with Him. Baptists do not believe that just because someone says the "sinner's prayer", and yet continues to sin, that he/she will be saved. There must be evidence of a Christian's "true belief" (i.e., righteousness).

Correct, but that doesn't mean the SBC views that a true believer will never sin. When a "true believer" does sin, it separates him from a close fellowship with God. They do not, however, lose their justification. This is, however, how Catholicism views mortal sin. So I don't see the comparison between Southern Baptists and Catholics on that.

It isn't my premise, since I'm not Southern Baptist.

Southern Baptists do not subscribe to the traditional five points of Calvinism (TULIP).

The SBC has no official position on the five points of Calvinism. That is left to the local church to deal with. By and large SBC churches are Arminian, but a minority are Calvinistic. Many of the founding documents of the SBC, however, were explicitly Calvinistic in their understanding of the five points (see the Sandy Creek Confession of Faith, and the Abstract of Principles, as well as the writings of the Rev. J. P. Boyce, author of the aforementioned Abstract).