Who exactly was crucified?

[Wretched one]

I think Jesus was composed of The Son of God, who arose from his bosom, Michael the archangel and David’s descendent, the human. What do you think? Do you think that only the human was crucified and not the rest and that is why Jesus said on the cross, “why Father have you abandoned me?”

[Dorothy]

Originally Posted by Wretched one

I think Jesus was composed of The Son of God, who arose from his bosom, Michael the archangel and David’s descendent, the human. What do you think? Do you think that only the human was crucified and not the rest and that is why Jesus said on the cross, “why Father have you abandoned me?”

The Second Person of the Blessed Trinity (Our Lord Jesus Christ) felt the abandonment of the Father as part of His Passion that he suffered for us. It was the Father's will that Jesus suffered that.....for our sake.

The Three Persons of the Blessed Trinity always existed. The Incarnation of the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity took place in time,......Jesus now has two natures; He is 100% Divine, and 100% human - and He is One Person, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, God! His Divinity did not leave Him when he was on the cross.

[raaucoin]

Read the entire Psalm 22. You'll see that Jesus was quoting scripture and that in a way was proclaiming his "victory song".

[Luvtosew]

Originally Posted by raaucoin

Read the entire Psalm 22. You'll see that Jesus was quoting scripture and that in a way was proclaiming his "victory song".

Yes and the Jews that were there knew what he was referencing..

[LilyM]

Originally Posted by Luvtosew

Yes and the Jews that were there knew what he was referencing..

So why did they think He was calling on Elijah if they all knew what His words meant?

[Uriah_Betrayed]

This is kinda going far out, but if God died for 3 days does that mean that the universe doesn't need God since it seemed to have not collapsed upon itself while he was out of power?

And by that train of thought, what power brought God back to life if he actually died and not just lost his physical body? I mean I understand why the Church would not say "and then Jesus shed his weak physical body to ascend to heaven." It would make the entire sacrifice seem like nothing more than an act performed by our creator (which admittedly is how I've felt about Christ's crucifixion recently...) but to claim God died is a rather large claim.

[mercytruth]

Originally Posted by Uriah_Betrayed

This is kinda going far out, but if God died for 3 days does that mean that the universe doesn't need God since it seemed to have not collapsed upon itself while he was out of power?

And by that train of thought, what power brought God back to life if he actually died and not just lost his physical body? I mean I understand why the Church would not say "and then Jesus shed his weak physical body to ascend to heaven." It would make the entire sacrifice seem like nothing more than an act performed by our creator (which admittedly is how I've felt about Christ's crucifixion recently...) but to claim God died is a rather large claim.

God the Father did not die, He remains always 'in heaven'. who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen. (1 Timothy 6:16).

God the Word, the only begotten of the Father died for our sins ... And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. ... (Heb.1:3).

Now when Jesus Christ died for our sins, he suffered and died in his physical body, and possibly suffered and died in his soul. (There is a difference of opinion whether he was abandoned by God the Father in his soul while he was on the cross, and when he descended into sheol.)

Neither his physical body, nor his soul upholds the universe, so the death of Jesus Christ would not bring about the collapse of the universe. Yet it is an interesting question to ponder.

God bless.

[meltzerboy]

Originally Posted by mercytruth

God the Father did not die, He remains always 'in heaven'. who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen. (1 Timothy 6:16).

God the Word, the only begotten of the Father died for our sins ... And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. ... (Heb.1:3).

Now when Jesus Christ died for our sins, he suffered and died in his physical body, and possibly suffered and died in his soul. (There is a difference of opinion whether he was abandoned by God the Father in his soul while he was on the cross, and when he descended into sheol.)

Neither his physical body, nor his soul upholds the universe, so the death of Jesus Christ would not bring about the collapse of the universe. Yet it is an interesting question to ponder.

God bless.

So, in effect, are you saying, based on your understanding of the Trinitarian G-d of three distinct and co-equal but not separate Persons who have different functions, that G-d the Son died but G-d the Father did not die? Do you therefore think it conceivable that G-d both died and did not die at the same time without separating one Person of G-d from another Person of G-d?

[mercytruth]

Originally Posted by meltzerboy

So, in effect, are you saying, based on your understanding of the Trinitarian G-d of three distinct and co-equal but not separate Persons who have different functions, that G-d the Son died but G-d the Father did not die? Do you therefore think it conceivable that G-d both died and did not die at the same time?

If I was to really tell you what I think, it would not be explainable from the current understanding.

[jcrichton]

Originally Posted by Uriah_Betrayed

This is kinda going far out, but if God died for 3 days does that mean that the universe doesn't need God since it seemed to have not collapsed upon itself while he was out of power?

And by that train of thought, what power brought God back to life if he actually died and not just lost his physical body? I mean I understand why the Church would not say "and then Jesus shed his weak physical body to ascend to heaven." It would make the entire sacrifice seem like nothing more than an act performed by our creator (which admittedly is how I've felt about Christ's crucifixion recently...) but to claim God died is a rather large claim.

...cause that's only our perspective; we tend to want to limit God to what our minds can assimilate...

If there's no three Distinct and Equal Persons of God, why does Jesus make it a point to demonstrate that the Church exists in the Three Divine Persons of God (St. John 14, 15, and 16)?

Conversely, if God would have to exist only within our temporal reality and would have to be defined by our temporal accidents... how could Jesus have promised the repentive sinner, on that very day that they would both die (Christ's physical Body), that He would take him to Paradise? ...and while He was dead, physically, how could He have descended to Preach to those spirits that had preceded His Incarnation and Resurrection?

We cannot seek to place God in the constraints of our temporal existence nor limit His Omnipotence to our finite knowledge and understanding (which comes to us from what God has determine to Reveal)... ("...my Way is not your way...")

Maran atha!

Angel

[Heuchler]

hmm. Well Jesus Christ is composed of two natures one is the human which He received from Mary and the other is divine which came from being begotten of God. However, both are eternal and there was never a time in which the Father existed and Christ did not. St. Michael the archangel was never a part of Christ and is only an angel.

Christ was crucified. The gnostics thought that Christ was never crucified because he was only God and that the divine can't be crucified, he only appeared to die on a cross. The agnostics, atheists, and other non-believers would say that only a human died on the cross and that Christ never rose nor was he ever God. Catholicism states that Jesus Christ, God and Man, died that day.

Christ did cry out that day "My God, My God, why have you abandoned me?" It is a scary thing. Through our actions, God felt that God had abandoned him. God doubted in God. This is the misery that was put onto Jesus. Christ as God and man both felt this. There was no duplicate Jesus standing off to the side. Our God doubted that day and our God died.

[meltzerboy]

Originally Posted by Heuchler

hmm. Well Jesus Christ is composed of two natures one is the human which He received from Mary and the other is divine which came from being begotten of God. However, both are eternal and there was never a time in which the Father existed and Christ did not. St. Michael the archangel was never a part of Christ and is only an angel.

Christ was crucified. The gnostics thought that Christ was never crucified because he was only God and that the divine can't be crucified, he only appeared to die on a cross. The agnostics, atheists, and other non-believers would say that only a human died on the cross and that Christ never rose nor was he ever God. Catholicism states that Jesus Christ, God and Man, died that day.

Christ did cry out that day "My God, My God, why have you abandoned me?" It is a scary thing. Through our actions, God felt that God had abandoned him. God doubted in God. This is the misery that was put onto Jesus. Christ as God and man both felt this. There was no duplicate Jesus standing off to the side. Our God doubted that day and our God died.

What is the sense of the statements that "G-d felt that G-d abandoned Him" and "G-d doubted in G-d"? Do they mean that the Second Person of G-d (the Son) felt abandoned by the First Person of God (the Father), even though they are Persons of the same G-d? Is this feeling of abandonment and doubt consistent with the nature of G-d? Or is it the human Jesus who felt the suffering, experienced death, and was resurrected, while the Jesus Who is G-d the Son, at one with His Father, did not and could not suffer, die, and be resurrected? I think, however, this is the rejected gnostic view.

[LilyM]

Originally Posted by meltzerboy

What is the sense of the statements that "G-d felt that G-d abandoned Him" and "G-d doubted in G-d"? Do they mean that the Second Person of G-d (the Son) felt abandoned by the First Person of God (the Father), even though they are Persons of the same G-d? Is this feeling of abandonment and doubt consistent with the nature of G-d? Or is it the human Jesus who felt the suffering, experienced death, and was resurrected, while the Jesus Who is G-d the Son, at one with His Father, did not and could not suffer, die, and be resurrected. I think, however, this is the rejected gnostic view.

The second view is the more correct one, although somewhat gnostic. Jesus and the second person of the Trinity are one and the same divine person, but that one chose to take on humanity. That includes human experiences like the sensation of distance from God that suffering and sin bring.

Think of it a bit like the sighted person who chooses for a time to wear a blindfold somas to experience what it is like to be blind, or who chooses to sleep in the street for a time
to experience what homelessness is like.

[Heuchler]

Originally Posted by meltzerboy

What is the sense of the statements that "G-d felt that G-d abandoned Him" and "G-d doubted in G-d"? Do they mean that the Second Person of G-d (the Son) felt abandoned by the First Person of God (the Father), even though they are Persons of the same G-d? Is this feeling of abandonment and doubt consistent with the nature of G-d? Or is it the human Jesus who felt the suffering, experienced death, and was resurrected, while the Jesus Who is G-d the Son, at one with His Father, did not and could not suffer, die, and be resurrected? I think, however, this is the rejected gnostic view.

I wouldn't agree with your last view because, as you said, it is gnostic. Jesus Christ who was God did suffer. Now it was probably only because of the humanity within him that he proclaimed that but in doing so, that means that the divine must have agreed. To look at it from our view, our souls do not feel pain, but our bodies can. Our bodies then influence us and lead us to cry out in a similar fashion.

That is why Christ is amazing to us. God ate, God ran, God rested, God was tempted, God was scourged, God died, and God rose again. Before God knew all there was to know about us. Now God has experienced it all. This is the true miracle; all others pale in comparison.

However, (back to the topic of Christ doubting on the cross) a lot of this is speculation as the Catholic church hasn't really had any teachings in detail on this particular subject (that I know of).

[meltzerboy]

Originally Posted by Heuchler

I wouldn't agree with your last view because, as you said, it is gnostic. Jesus Christ who was God did suffer. Now it was probably only because of the humanity within him that he proclaimed that but in doing so, that means that the divine must have agreed. To look at it from our view, our souls do not feel pain, but our bodies can. Our bodies then influence us and lead us to cry out in a similar fashion.

That is why Christ is amazing to us. God ate, God ran, God rested, God was tempted, God was scourged, God died, and God rose again. Before God knew all there was to know about us. Now God has experienced it all. This is the true miracle; all others pale in comparison.

However, (back to the topic of Christ doubting on the cross) a lot of this is speculation as the Catholic church hasn't really had any teachings in detail on this particular subject (that I know of).

I guess this is the essential difference between Christianity and Judaism, for the notion of G-d's becoming human in form and behavior is totally alien to the nature of G-d according to Jewish belief. Doesn't Christianity stop short of Jesus' becoming completely human as well, since it believes Jesus, as a human, is still sinless, although tempted? Is this because Jesus is the recapitulation of humanity (i.e. Adam) BEFORE original sin, or is it due to Jesus' dual nature, in which the divine Jesus prevents the human Jesus from falling victim to sin?