'Catholic Spring' uprising prediction for Ireland over dissenting priest Father Flannery

[lizaanne]

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Cat...147131755.html

I for one say bring it on. I think it would be good for there to be a cleaning of house in the Catholic Church, and if folks can't get with the program, and refuse to actually BE Catholic, then they make the decision to leave the Church. But do not stay inside and try to destroy it from within.

~Liza

[Julia Mae]

Originally Posted by lizaanne

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Cat...147131755.html

I for one say bring it on. I think it would be good for there to be a cleaning of house in the Catholic Church, and if folks can't get with the program, and refuse to actually BE Catholic, then they make the decision to leave the Church. But do not stay inside and try to destroy it from within.

~Liza

Hello, Liza. What do you think "actually BE Catholic" means, exactly? See, I think it means the purest form of Christian, in the Church which has retained the true teachings of Jesus Christ and the reality of the Eucharist. So that means following Jesus and doing what He said:

feeding the hungry
clothing the naked
sheltering the homeless
loving one another
being wary of the leaven of the Pharisees

So this priest you are referring to here, Father Flannery, what exactly did he say? Did he say, as a famous German priest once did, that Jesus did not perform miracles? Did he say the bread was symbolically representing Jesus?

What heresy did he commit? I ask because the story is written for the local population who are apparently very familiar with this, but it doesn't quote him or give examples.

Do you have some quotes and examples?

[Cider]

Several leading priests in Ireland are predicting a “Catholic Spring” as dissent against the Vatican decision to ban Father Tony Flannery grows.

Read more: http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Cat...#ixzz1rqDmzA5Z

huh? How is people rising up against the Vatican's decision a "Catholic Spring"? Quite the opposite.

[Stumblesalot]

If the Holy Father says "jump" ALL Catholics should say how high! Seems as if the enemy is trying to destroy the church from within.

[lizaanne]

Originally Posted by Julia Mae

See, I think it means...

With all due respect, what YOU think is irrelevant. There is far more to being Catholic than performing corporal works of mercy. The man is preaching against the teachings of the Church. That is dangerous, misleading, confusing, and totally out of line.

Do you have some quotes and examples?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...-flannery.html

He is known for speaking in favor of the ordination of women, and in favor of the use of artificial birth control. If the Holy Father feels the situation is dire enough to send him off to a monastery, then who am I to question his (the Pope's) actions?

Where this priest is located is not relevant - he is part of the Bride of Christ which is universal. What harm he does in Ireland or anywhere is harm to the whole.

~Liza

[Julia Mae]

Originally Posted by lizaanne

With all due respect, what YOU think is irrelevant.

As is what you think. Yet, it's also not irrelevant, as we are all acting in good Faith based on what we think.

There is far more to being Catholic than performing corporal works of mercy.

Well, what all did Jesus say to do? You know, He said, Himself, quite clearly, we'd be judged on these things, on charitable acts. So, I'm thinking, as irrelevant as that seems, that these should have a primary place in our practice of Faith. But I only think that because Jesus said it so very very clearly.

He is known for speaking in favor of the ordination of women, and in favor of the use of artificial birth control. If the Holy Father feels the situation is dire enough to send him off to a monastery, then who am I to question his (the Pope's) actions?

I didn't realize this was about what you questioned or didn't. Yet, we seem to question Popes, anyway, don't we? A Pope says to change the Mass and celebrate in the vernacular, and for decades, Catholics challenge and criticize and insist that what is supposed to be "Extraordinary" become "Ordinary" apparently to "fix" a Papal error. As an example.

So I guess a priest disagreeing with a teaching you personally subscribe to is bad, but people challenging a Pope when you disagree with him is okay? So it is about what you think, then?

I'll go see if I can find some quotes from the priest to put here so we have actual facts to discuss.

[NPC]

Originally Posted by Julia Mae

As is what you think. Yet, it's also not irrelevant, as we are all acting in good Faith based on what we think.



Well, what all did Jesus say to do? You know, He said, Himself, quite clearly, we'd be judged on these things, on charitable acts. So, I'm thinking, as irrelevant as that seems, that these should have a primary place in our practice of Faith. But I only think that because Jesus said it so very very clearly.



I didn't realize this was about what you questioned or didn't. Yet, we seem to question Popes, anyway, don't we? A Pope says to change the Mass and celebrate in the vernacular, and for decades, Catholics challenge and criticize and insist that what is supposed to be "Extraordinary" become "Ordinary" apparently to "fix" a Papal error. As an example.

So I guess a priest disagreeing with a teaching you personally subscribe to is bad, but people challenging a Pope when you disagree with him is okay? So it is about what you think, then?

I'll go see if I can find some quotes from the priest to put here so we have actual facts to discuss.

I have heard Fr Flannery preach on a number of occasions. I can tell you that he has no problem airing his controvertial views in public, from the pulpit. In actual fact, where I have had the displeasure of hearing him preach during a novena provides 15,000 of the faithful every day, in one city, in "Catholic Ireland" - the platform he has in this country should not be underestimated. My most recent memory of his preaching is of him telling the faithful that the Church stops people thinking for themselves, that Catholics should be following their conscience - of course, he omitted to make the crucial distinction: that it should be an informed conscience. For many people at said novena it is the only time they go to Mass during the year - they should be able to rightly assume that what they are getting is the teaching of the Catholic Church. No wonder the recent survey shows that Irish "Catholics" hold views that are so contrary to what the Church actually teaches.

There has been open dissent in the case of Fr Flannery, and unfortunately several other priests in this country. The bottom line for me is that when I go to a Catholic Mass in the Roman Rite, I have a right to have that Mass celebrated according to the books of that Rite, and I have a right to receive - as the priest has an obligation to impart - the truths which the Catholic Church desires all her children to have. To use the pulpit to air one's dissenting views is one of the most irresponsible and un-pastor-like acts a priest can inflict on the hungry souls entrusted to him by the Good Lord.

The Church in Ireland desperately needs your prayers! Pray that the Lord will grant these dissident priests the grace of full conversion to the truth. Pray that our bishops will, in the midst of this crisis, become true shepherds for us all.

[Julia Mae]

Originally Posted by NPC

My most recent memory of his preaching is of him telling the faithful that the Church stops people thinking for themselves, that Catholics should be following their conscience - of course, he omitted to make the crucial distinction: that it should be an informed conscience. For many people at said novena it is the only time they go to Mass during the year - they should be able to rightly assume that what they are getting is the teaching of the Catholic Church. No wonder the recent survey shows that Irish "Catholics" hold views that are so contrary to what the Church actually teaches.

Thanks for sharing. I wish someplace there were actual quotes from the man. I wish I understood why, since according to what I read he has been talking about what some term "liberal" views for many years, it's only now, just before he retires, that the Vatican stepped in.

I have to admit, I do wish priests wouldn't use the Homily to air their personal views, gripes, politics and agendas. You'd think the Scripture and the Saints were enough homiletic fodder for a lifetime.

2012 is going to be an interesting year in the Church. 2013, even moreso. Anyway, I looked at that magazine online he was supposed to write for and didn't find any articles from him. I'm sorry there is so much upheaval, but it's going on everywhere, I guess.

[Ender]

Originally Posted by Julia Mae

I wish someplace there were actual quotes from the man.

The article provided this direct quote from what he had written:

“Opening up the ministry of the church to laypeople, to married people, to priests, to women. In other words, not confining it to the male celibate priesthood as we’ve had in the past..."

This issue is closed as far as the ordination of women is concerned. It is an infallible teaching that a priest must be male and Fr. Flannery does everyone a disservice when he preaches otherwise.

Ender

[trials]

Originally Posted by NPC

I have heard Fr Flannery preach on a number of occasions. I can tell you that he has no problem airing his controvertial views in public, from the pulpit. In actual fact, where I have had the displeasure of hearing him preach during a novena provides 15,000 of the faithful every day, in one city, in "Catholic Ireland" - the platform he has in this country should not be underestimated. My most recent memory of his preaching is of him telling the faithful that the Church stops people thinking for themselves, that Catholics should be following their conscience - of course, he omitted to make the crucial distinction: that it should be an informed conscience. For many people at said novena it is the only time they go to Mass during the year - they should be able to rightly assume that what they are getting is the teaching of the Catholic Church. No wonder the recent survey shows that Irish "Catholics" hold views that are so contrary to what the Church actually teaches.

There has been open dissent in the case of Fr Flannery, and unfortunately several other priests in this country. The bottom line for me is that when I go to a Catholic Mass in the Roman Rite, I have a right to have that Mass celebrated according to the books of that Rite, and I have a right to receive - as the priest has an obligation to impart - the truths which the Catholic Church desires all her children to have. To use the pulpit to air one's dissenting views is one of the most irresponsible and un-pastor-like acts a priest can inflict on the hungry souls entrusted to him by the Good Lord.

The Church in Ireland desperately needs your prayers! Pray that the Lord will grant these dissident priests the grace of full conversion to the truth. Pray that our bishops will, in the midst of this crisis, become true shepherds for us all.

I am praying also, this is exploding in the media right now here, even clueless TV3 is leading with the headline "Association of Catholic Priests to begin process of reform". The world is turning upside down, one priest interviewed today said "If Rome says jump, are we supposed to say how high?" God help us. All I could think of was Lucifer's motto, "I will not serve" Is there anything we can do about this, other than pray?

[saveusfromhell]

NPC you need to read the association of catholic priests, or the ACP
http://www.associationofcatholicprie...gory/assembly/ they are about to hold an assebly to muster support from lay and priests alike in to action to futher their agenda.
i have tried many times, yet i can't get apost onto the board, even though i am polite, whereas those that insult the vatican and try and pressurise priests who post supporting rome do make it on.
the are happy to censor on their own turf but cry foul when the vatican tries to hold on to it's teachings.

[NPC]

Originally Posted by saveusfromhell

NPC you need to read the association of catholic priests, or the ACP
http://www.associationofcatholicprie...gory/assembly/ they are about to hold an assebly to muster support from lay and priests alike in to action to futher their agenda.
i have tried many times, yet i can't get apost onto the board, even though i am polite, whereas those that insult the vatican and try and pressurise priests who post supporting rome do make it on.
the are happy to censor on their own turf but cry foul when the vatican tries to hold on to it's teachings.

We shouldn't be surprised that your posts haven't been accepted. The ones calling for tolerance are usually the most intolerant of views that differ from their own agenda.

Unfortunately I will not be in a position to go to that assembly. Although I am utterly opposed to the agenda of the ACP I think it would be great to muster a good crowd of faithful Catholics to "infiltrate" the meeting to air their views - to demand that a group calling themselves "Catholic Priests" actually be Catholic! I know from personal experience that that would really get up their noses. I was outside one of their meetings last year in a show of support for the Holy Father and the new translation of the Roman Missal and they did not like it one bit! You'd think some of them were demon possessed the way their faces contorted when their eyes fell on our giant picture of Pope Benedict. On a serious note though, the devil is most certainly in their work, and therefore the armour of Christ through prayer, knowing the faith, and acts of penance and self-denial (as called for by the Holy Father in his letter to Irish Catholics in 2010) will be our surest defence against this scourge - this heresy - of liberalism and modernism.

[trials]

Originally Posted by NPC

We shouldn't be surprised that your posts haven't been accepted. The ones calling for tolerance are usually the most intolerant of views that differ from their own agenda.

Unfortunately I will not be in a position to go to that assembly. Although I am utterly opposed to the agenda of the ACP I think it would be great to muster a good crowd of faithful Catholics to "infiltrate" the meeting to air their views - to demand that a group calling themselves "Catholic Priests" actually be Catholic! I know from personal experience that that would really get up their noses. I was outside one of their meetings last year in a show of support for the Holy Father and the new translation of the Roman Missal and they did not like it one bit! You'd think some of them were demon possessed the way their faces contorted when their eyes fell on our giant picture of Pope Benedict. On a serious note though, the devil is most certainly in their work, and therefore the armour of Christ through prayer, knowing the faith, and acts of penance and self-denial (as called for by the Holy Father in his letter to Irish Catholics in 2010) will be our surest defence against this scourge - this heresy - of liberalism and modernism.

Well done you. Wish I'd been there to support you. I know the Church will come through this, as it has come through so many trials before, but I really feel the need to act. Like you said, to get a voice heard from Catholics that actually support the Church and its teachings and are not just blindly accepting their faith, but understand it and love it. We need to be heard now. I am praying and praying that God will show me how to act. It is very hard when it is your own parish priest too that is supportive of this group. I don't feel comfortable talking to him about this at all, mainly because of the respect I have for priests, I can't see myself challenging him charitably without feeling like I'm in the wrong to dare to criticise a priest. All I have done is pray every day for him.

I was talking about this with someone yesterday, and realised that maybe good will come from this. Too long the liberal views had been infiltrating our Church here at the highest levels - I don't mean Bishops, (or at least I hope not), but training of priests, and Diocesan-led discussions/meetings/seminars, etc. It was like the elephant in the room. No one did anything about it, or explicitly mentioned it, but we knew it was there like a spreading virus. Now the extent of the disease is there for all to see - the ACP has shown themselves for what they really are, in their skewed survey and their comments on the Vatican - it's out there. I pray that now the Church will be purified, even if it comes down to people choosing to break away from the Church towards something of their own making that houses all these liberal views. Am I making any sense?

[NPC]

Originally Posted by trials

I am praying also, this is exploding in the media right now here, even clueless TV3 is leading with the headline "Association of Catholic Priests to begin process of reform". The world is turning upside down, one priest interviewed today said "If Rome says jump, are we supposed to say how high?" God help us. All I could think of was Lucifer's motto, "I will not serve" Is there anything we can do about this, other than pray?

We are certainly going through a troubling time in Ireland. It is hard to know what to do. We are faced with a situation that we've never faced before - widespread dissent (although not as widespread as the ACP would like us to think) from Church teachings by clergy and laity. In the past - during Penal times - our forefathers held fast to the faith: an archbishop of Armagh, St Oliver Plunkett, was martyred for the faith, as were countless others. When we pray, therefore, I believe we should invoke the aid of St Oliver Plunkett and the Irish martyrs - the current archbishop of Armagh and his brother bishops need courage, fortitude and unwavering fidelity.

As faithful Catholics, we need to do our best to have our voices heard. This is difficult given that our national broadcaster is clearly engaged in an anti-Catholic agenda, as, indeed, is the Labour wing of our government. We need to be informed about our Catholic faith, in all its beauty - and the Catholic faith is, as you know, beautiful. Write to newspapers to correct errors, misinterpretations and bias. If there is outright bias in the media, you are entitled to make a case to the Broadcasting Complaints Commission. Arm yourself with good Catholic publications (the Catholic Voice newspaper for example provides excellent commentary on Catholic issues).

We need to support our faithful priests too. A word of encouragement will mean an awful lot - assure that you are praying for them, and make sure you do. I myself am coming more and more to realise the value of praying the Rosary in these times of persecution and dissent. On the other hand, if priests are propagating the agenda of the ACP in their Masses - for example, not using the new translation of the Roman Missal, or preaching non-Catholic or even anti-Catholic ideas - we have a duty, in charity, to inform the priest in question, the bishop or even the Vatican. As I said in my earlier post, we have a right to the Catholic faith, and the Mass in the Roman Rite.

Just as a general remark on this thread, I think we should not dwell on the phrase "If Rome asks us to jump...". The ACP are using this in its most derogatory sense to imply that orthodox Catholics cannot think for themselves, that they are blindly obedient to Rome. This, of course, is not the case. To say that our response should be "how high?" is to simplify things too much in my opinion - we do indeed trust what the Church teaches, and we obey our Holy Father, but it is because we are informed in the faith that we can have this confidence. The ACP are calling on people to be open-minded, yet as far as I can see, they have their minds so open that all sense has escaped. I am reminded of a quote by G.K. Chesterton who said, "the object of opening the mind, as with opening one's mouth, is to shut it again on something solid" - thanks be to God, many of us have indeed opened our minds, and shut them again on something solid, and that something solid is the Rock, Peter, Our Holy Father Pope Benedict. We must cling to that knowledge with hope and confidence.

[sw85]

Originally Posted by Julia Mae

I didn't realize this was about what you questioned or didn't. Yet, we seem to question Popes, anyway, don't we? A Pope says to change the Mass and celebrate in the vernacular, and for decades, Catholics challenge and criticize and insist that what is supposed to be "Extraordinary" become "Ordinary" apparently to "fix" a Papal error. As an example.

Wait, what is this supposed to prove? If Father Flannery were treated the way the SSPX was treated, he'd have been excommunicated years ago.