From to Catholicism to Orthodoxy

[Discerning Life]

My very very close friend is very close to converting to Eastern Orthodoxy.
We are pen pals and used to be lovers of Catholicism. In fact, we used to be discerning religious life together.

Nonetheless, we have let time pass, and I found out recently that she's most likely converting. That makes me very sad, and I don't know how we'll bond when the very thing that brought us together was Catholicism and the fascination with it.

So here's my dilemma: should I pray that she doesn't convert or should I pray that God lead where ever He deems fit? If I pray the latter and she converts, how am I supposed to know I'm in the right denomination? I mean, really. She REALLY knew the Catholic Church, yet she's leaving. I don't understand it, and she doesn't want to explain it.

Gah. What do you suggest? Again, please suggest, and don't tell.

[ConstantineTG]

As an Eastern Catholic, I wouldn't feel bad if one converts to Orthodoxy. I guess, in a very loose way, the way most (if not all) Traditional Catholics see the SSPX regardless of their irregular status is the same way Eastern Catholics see the Orthodox. And for Eastern Catholics it goes much deeper than just the Liturgy.

But anyway, pray for the person. Don't ask for anything more than the will of God be done. And don't feel bad if the person has found God in Orthodoxy. As Catholics we see the Orthodox as a true and valid Church whom we are actively seeking reconciliation with. I can guarantee you God is as much present there as He is in the Catholic Church. For one thing, the Catholic Church does teach that the Eucharist in the Orthodox Church is valid. So Christ is on their altars, body, blood, soul and divinity as much as He is on ours. If there a Catholic Christ and an Orthodox Christ? Of course not. There is only one Christ.

[choliks]

Originally Posted by ConstantineTG

As an Eastern Catholic, I wouldn't feel bad if one converts to Orthodoxy. I guess, in a very loose way, the way most (if not all) Traditional Catholics see the SSPX regardless of their irregular status is the same way Eastern Catholics see the Orthodox. And for Eastern Catholics it goes much deeper than just the Liturgy.

But anyway, pray for the person. Don't ask for anything more than the will of God be done. And don't feel bad if the person has found God in Orthodoxy. As Catholics we see the Orthodox as a true and valid Church whom we are actively seeking reconciliation with. I can guarantee you God is as much present there as He is in the Catholic Church. For one thing, the Catholic Church does teach that the Eucharist in the Orthodox Church is valid. So Christ is on their altars, body, blood, soul and divinity as much as He is on ours. If there a Catholic Christ and an Orthodox Christ? Of course not. There is only one Christ.

I second ConstatineTG's post.

[rmills1]

Originally Posted by ConstantineTG

As an Eastern Catholic, I wouldn't feel bad if one converts to Orthodoxy. I guess, in a very loose way, the way most (if not all) Traditional Catholics see the SSPX regardless of their irregular status is the same way Eastern Catholics see the Orthodox. And for Eastern Catholics it goes much deeper than just the Liturgy.

But anyway, pray for the person. Don't ask for anything more than the will of God be done. And don't feel bad if the person has found God in Orthodoxy. As Catholics we see the Orthodox as a true and valid Church whom we are actively seeking reconciliation with. I can guarantee you God is as much present there as He is in the Catholic Church. For one thing, the Catholic Church does teach that the Eucharist in the Orthodox Church is valid. So Christ is on their altars, body, blood, soul and divinity as much as He is on ours. If there a Catholic Christ and an Orthodox Christ? Of course not. There is only one Christ.

Latin Rite Catholics see the SSPX as rigorous believers in Christ who are resistant to change and do not understand the history of our Church in regards to these changes. But like the Prodigal Son, we must always hope for and welcome reunion.

[L piperatus]

If a family member or close friend of mine was considering conversion to Eastern Orthodoxy, I would pray to God that they should stay Catholic.

I have a well-formed opinion on EO, because I dated an EO some 8 years ago and I considered conversion myself. Ultimately I decided, I do not want to come under the authority of a Metropolitan or Patriarch (in my specific case, the Metropolitan of ROCOR in New York, and the Moscow Patriarch) who in turn rejects the authority of Peter's successor over himself.

I have a very sensitive smell to situations of slavery/bondage. Why should I put my neck under the yoke of an earthly ruler who in some way usurped the power of God's chosen ruler of his Church - the Pope? Why should I take orders from a Metropolitan or Patriarch who himself refuses to take orders from the Pope?

Just contemplating the possibility I felt this panic of being smothered, choked, a very physical reaction of fear and panic in front of a threatening force bent on enslaving me. The Pope, that's different. I don't feel threatened by his authority, because it's an authority entrusted to him by Jesus Christ.

So, I decided that there was no way in h*** that I was converting to EO. It was just healthy self-preservation and refusing to put my neck under someone's yoke who didn't receive divine authority to become my boss. And, since I feel so strongly about not converting to EO, and because I feel so sorry for the EO who in my opinion follow and obey some sort of illegitimate authority (illegitimate since the respective Patriarchs/Bishops are in rebellion against the Pope), it's only natural that I would pray to God to protect my loved ones from falling into that kind of bondage.

[T More]

One of the biggest impacts on me in becoming Catholic were these words in John 17:


20 "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23 I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.


With all due respect to my Orthodox brethren, when I looked around, this left me with the obvious answer.

[Seamus L]

I would pray that they return to the fullness of faith found only in the Catholic Church.

[Cristiano]

The change from a Church to another is a symptom of bigger issues. I think that instead of arguing we should be praying for the reunification of the Churches thus avoiding this kind of unnecessary painful struggles.

[L piperatus]

Originally Posted by T More

One of the biggest impacts on me in becoming Catholic were these words in John 17:


20 "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23 I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.


With all due respect to my Orthodox brethren, when I looked around, this left me with the obvious answer.

Yes, with the EO, you have the perennial problem of who is in communion with whom.

For example, ROCOR (Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia) is currently in communion with other Old Calendar EO Churches and groups, such as the Moscow Patriarchate (MP), the Serb EOC, the monks on Mount Athos, and small (out-of-mainstream) groups of Greek, Romanian, and Bulgarian bishops who adhere to the Old Calendar. But ROCOR is not in communion with New Calendar Churches such as the Greek and Antiochian, or the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople. The MP is currently in communion with the EP, but it actually broke communion with the EP during the 1990s, because the EP granted autocephaly to the Estonian EOC, against the MP's protests. The OCA (Orthodox Church in America) is recognized by the MP, but not by the EP. The Ukrainian EOC is split in two, with one Patriarch recognized by Constantinople and not by Moscow, as well as a Metropolitan loyal to the Moscow Patriarch. Obviously, the autocephalous Patriarch of Kyiv is out of communion with Moscow. Same situation, same split in Estonia - two EOC out of communion with each other, one loyal to Moscow and one who was granted autonomy by Constantinople against Moscow's protests. In Japan, the situation is the reverse - the EP believes the Japanese EOC should stay under Constantinople's authority, but Moscow granted autonomy to a Japanese EOC, which is disputed by Constantinople, and this autonomous Japanese EOC is out of communion with the EP.

It's quite a mess, just keeping track who's out of communion with whom, and who has lately broken communion with whom. This can't possibly be the unity Jesus Christ prayed for on the day of the Last Supper.

[Cider]

Originally Posted by L piperatus

Yes, with the EO, you have the perennial problem of who is in communion with whom.

For example, ROCOR (Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia) is currently in communion with other Old Calendar EO Churches and groups, such as the Moscow Patriarchate (MP), the Serb EOC, the monks on Mount Athos, and small (out-of-mainstream) groups of Greek, Romanian, and Bulgarian bishops who adhere to the Old Calendar. But ROCOR is not in communion with New Calendar Churches such as the Greek and Antiochian, or the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople. The MP is currently in communion with the EP, but it actually broke communion with the EP during the 1990s, because the EP granted autocephaly to the Estonian EOC, against the MP's protests. The OCA (Orthodox Church in America) is recognized by the MP, but not by the EP. The Ukrainian EOC is split in two, with one Patriarch recognized by Constantinople and not by Moscow, as well as a Metropolitan loyal to the Moscow Patriarch. Obviously, the autocephalous Patriarch of Kyiv is out of communion with Moscow. Same situation, same split in Estonia - two EOC out of communion with each other, one loyal to Moscow and one who was granted autonomy by Constantinople against Moscow's protests. In Japan, the situation is the reverse - the EP believes the Japanese EOC should stay under Constantinople's authority, but Moscow granted autonomy to a Japanese EOC, which is disputed by Constantinople, and this autonomous Japanese EOC is out of communion with the EP.

It's quite a mess, just keeping track who's out of communion with whom, and who has lately broken communion with whom. This can't possibly be the unity Jesus Christ prayed for on the day of the Last Supper.

And I could see the Orthodox arguments that the Catholic church has similar issues what with the SSPX, the protestants ect. It's not like there have not been heresies and schisms all along. We did just welcome some Anglicans back.

[L piperatus]

Originally Posted by Cider

And I could see the Orthodox arguments that the Catholic church has similar issues what with the SSPX, the protestants ect. It's not like there have not been heresies and schisms all along. We did just welcome some Anglicans back.

"Where Peter is, there is the Church." "This (Rome) is the one Church everybody should agree with."

I'm paraphrasing the Early Church Fathers above.

So, it's not the same with the Catholic Church. All I have to ask about SSPX, Protestants, Anglicans, etc, is this: Are they under the authority of the Pope? Those who accept the authority of the Pope, are inside the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Other groups are outside the Church.

But with Eastern Orthodoxy, to this day I am perplexed - what's their test for Orthodoxy, when two EO Churches break communion? Who should I commune with, if I happen to be EO?

Let's take the example of when the Moscow Patriarch broke communion with the EP of Constantinople, during the 1990s. Moscow dropped the name of the Ecumenical Patriarch from the diptychs - an official expression of the fact that Moscow considered the EP to have fallen away from Orthodoxy, and an expression of the fact that Moscow had broken communion with Constantinople. So, in a case like this, what's the test for me, as a layperson, about whom should I follow? Shall I believe Moscow, that Constantinople has fallen away from Orthodoxy? Shall I stop attending/communing in the EP's churches or not?

Or let's take ROCOR. When I was considering converting, I was told not to attend and commune in Greek, Antiochian, Romanian EO Churches that use the New Calendar. But they said I was allowed to attend EO churches that used the Old Calendar.

[Michael85]

Why would God lead someone out of His Holy Church?

Because His Holy Church is bigger than the Roman Catholic Church.

[Padraig1972]

I wish we could support-back each other up rather than bickering like angry little children. Imagine what the poster feels like or what the person that concidering to convert feels like.

Do we show any regard for them in this thread? No, the me, me and me factor seems more important (the my daddy is bigger and stronger than yours factor, kids does this..not grown men and women).

I am in a situation myself where i feel drawn to some of the elements in the orthodox church and it scares me, because i would loose my job, loose friends and the place i have found in the CC. And i am not even sure why it happens.

That i have a hard time with liberals and behaviour during the Novo Ordo mass can`t just be it, can it?

[Rich C]

It's hard to focus on being supportive when Catholic posters are misinforming the OP about the gravity of leaving the Church, and offering false ecclesiology. Isn't this supposed to be Catholic Answers?

Dear OP, I'll keep praying for you and your friend, but I think you should look elsewhere for advice in the future.

[MrPip]

Originally Posted by Padraig1972

I wish we could support-back each other up rather than bickering like angry little children. Imagine what the poster feels like or what the person that concidering to convert feels like.

Do we show any regard for them in this thread? No, the me, me and me factor seems more important (the my daddy is bigger and stronger than yours factor, kids does this..not grown men and women).

I am in a situation myself where i feel drawn to some of the elements in the orthodox church and it scares me, because i would loose my job, loose friends and the place i have found in the CC. And i am not even sure why it happens.

That i have a hard time with liberals and behaviour during the Novo Ordo mass can`t just be it, can it?

You may already have done so, but have you looked into the Eastern Catholic Church? I guess it sort of depends of just *which* "elements in the orthodox church" you feel drawn to. If they are ones that do not include rejection of the Papacy, the Eastern Catholic Church(es) may be just what you're looking for. And you get to remain *fully* Catholic !