Pascal's Wager and Faith

Qoeleth · #1 Apr 23, '12, 8:09 pm

Pascal's Wager is the idea that even if there is only a small chance God, Heaven and Hell are real, since we are betting on infinite pain or joy, it is well worth it to act as if they are. If, for example, there is lottery we only have a 1% chance of winning, but the prize is infinite, it will always be worth it to buy a ticket. To be honest, (although I am Catholic) I think there is probably not literally a Hell of Eternal Fire, but I am not prepared to take the risk!!

I suppose Albert Camus' statement reflects a similar principle: "It is better to live as if there is a God, and find out there isn't, than to live as if there isn't and to find out there is."

But, is acting out of Pascal's Wager the same as faith? It seems to be more a kind of agnosticism.

How would unbelievers respond to Pascal's Wager? Even if there is only a 1% chance Heaven and Hell are real (which, objectively, even a hard-core atheist would have to admit)- are you prepared to take the risk?

Poseidon · #2 Apr 23, '12, 8:38 pm

It depends on what you mean by "living as if God exists." If you mean not killing, stealing, raping, cheating on your spouse, etc, then I'd do that anyway. There is no cost to me for doing that, and therefore I'll do it.

There are situations where it isn't worth it to do that, however. For example, a gay person would face the choice of marrying the person they love and risking the wrath of God in the afterlife, or spending their whole life alone on the chance that it will get them rewarded when they die. So it really could go either way in my mind.

JDaniel · #3 Apr 23, '12, 9:06 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poseidon

It depends on what you mean by "living as if God exists." If you mean not killing, stealing, raping, cheating on your spouse, etc, then I'd do that anyway. There is no cost to me for doing that, and therefore I'll do it.

There are situations where it isn't worth it to do that, however. For example, a gay person would face the choice of marrying the person they love and risking the wrath of God in the afterlife, or spending their whole life alone on the chance that it will get them rewarded when they die. So it really could go either way in my mind.

Poseidon:

Why should two married gays "risk the wrath of God in the afterlife"? From where do you get this?

God bless,
jd

Poseidon · #4 Apr 23, '12, 9:30 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDaniel

Poseidon:

Why should two married gays "risk the wrath of God in the afterlife"? From where do you get this?

God bless,
jd

The teaching of the Catholic Church that homosexual acts are a mortal sin, and mortal sin sends you to hell.

JDaniel · #5 Apr 23, '12, 10:15 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poseidon

The teaching of the Catholic Church that homosexual acts are a mortal sin, and mortal sin sends you to hell.

Poseidon:

Any sexual act, by anyone, that is not open to and capable of producing progeny, is mortal sin. They're not segregated out for that! The Church is simply being consistent.

God bless,
jd

JDaniel · #6 Apr 23, '12, 10:26 pm

Always remember, God knows our hearts. This is not a children's game. Pascal didn't forget this.

God bless,
jd

Qoeleth · #7 Apr 23, '12, 10:31 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDaniel

Always remember, God knows our hearts. This is not a children's game.

God bless,
jd

What if someone has a bad heart, is selfish, greedy, lustful, proud, etc.? But they decide they don't want to spend eternity in Hell. They can change their actions- make themselves obey the commandments, act charitably, peacefully, humbly, etc- but they can't change their heart.

God made the heart- if God judges the heart, He judges Himself, His own work. But we make our own actions.

empther · #8 Apr 24, '12, 5:57 pm

JDaniel wrote:

Quote:

Always remember, God knows our hearts. This is not a children's game. Pascal didn't forget this.

And that is the answer to the first question.
If we take Pascal's wager that God exists and act accordingly, is that faith?

In a way it is. It is faith in the goodness of doing good. If somebody can't believe in God, loving his neighbor is enough to satisfy God.

I recall a made for TV movie called "The Fourth Magi" starring Martin Sheen. He is one of the Magi, scholars from the East. He sets out to follow the Star, ( of Bethelehem ) but along the way he gets involved with a tribe of people who need medical help. He's a physician. Year after year he wants to leave these people and go on to Judea, but the people need him.
Finally, he gets away, but he arrives at Galgotha minutes after the crucafixtion and death of Jesus. Sheen despairs and is dying. Jesus appears and says he is saved because of all he did for the Lord. "I thirsted and you gave me water. I was hungry and you fed me. I was naked and you clothed me."
Sheen asks, "Lord, when did I do all these things?"
"Amen I say to you, if you did it for the least of my brethren you did it for me.".

cerad2 · #9 Apr 24, '12, 6:18 pm

Pascal himself later said his wager was pretty silly.

There is absolutely no way that one can assign probabilities to make believe. It's just as likely that only atheists will be rewarded as it is that someone who just happens to belong to the proper denomination will win the jackpot.

empther · #10 Apr 24, '12, 6:33 pm

Quote:

There is absolutely no way that one can assign probabilities to make believe. It's just as likely that only atheists will be rewarded as it is that someone who just happens to belong to the proper denomination will win the jackpot.

This is a pretty risky position to take.

Does an atheist love his fellow man enough to sacrifice and do good for other?
I can't think of one famous atheist who did so.
Oh sure, an atheist may be honest in his dealings, and lend his neighbor a lawnmower and things like that, but is that enough?

Deciding whether or not God exists is not purely an exercise in logic. It's also a matter of the heart, and that's what God is interested in.

Charlemagne II · #11 Apr 24, '12, 7:49 pm

ASimon

I view the Christian conceptions of Heaven and Hell to be different flavors of intolerable, but the good news is, the bar for admittance to Heaven is so low, it would seem you'd hardly need to do anything.

There's no Catholic who would agree with you. Jesus wouldn't either.

“Everyone who acknowledges me before others I will acknowledge before my heavenly Father. But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my
heavenly Father.” Matthew 10:32-33

My departed cousin left the Church, complaining that it was the most difficult religion in the world to practice. Well of course, some Christians think all you have to do is believe.

Charlemagne II · #12 Apr 25, '12, 8:56 am

elev

So, by Pascal's reasoning, there's an infinite expected value to ignoring Pascal's Wager.

Yes, the infinite expected value is negative ... hell.

Charlemagne II · #13 Apr 25, '12, 9:00 am

tafan

Most critiques of Pascal Wager show that people have never actually read what he wrote.

Exactly. What they have read is maybe a single paragraph that contain the kernel of the argument.

But the entire Pensees is built up around that one argument. If you haven't read the rest of Pensees, it's as if you read only the Sermon on the Mount and no other part of the Bible.

tafan · #14 Apr 25, '12, 9:06 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlemagne II

tafan

Most critiques of Pascal Wager show that people have never actually read what he wrote.

Exactly. What they have read is maybe a single paragraph that contain the kernel of the argument.

But the entire Pensees is built up around that one argument. If you haven't read the rest of Pensees, it's as if you read only the Sermon on the Mount and no other part of the Bible.

The Wager is by far the longest Pensee. I am by no means convincedthat all of the Pensees were written to support the Wager. They are very broad in scope and subject matter. I think it more likely they were notes that were prepared by Pascal in order to write a lengthy theological treatese; with the Wager being just part of it.

IIRC, One can read the entire Wager and find most of the answers to the common critiques of it, without reading all of the Pensees. Although I would certainly encourage people to read all of the Pensees.

As to the claim made earlier by another poster that Pascal thought the wager was silly, I find that exceedingly hard to believe as I thought the wager, like the rest of the Pensees were found after his death in his personal writings. I did not think he published it while he was alive (but I could be wrong on this).

Eleve · #15 Apr 25, '12, 11:13 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlemagne II

elev

So, by Pascal's reasoning, there's an infinite expected value to ignoring Pascal's Wager.

Yes, the infinite expected value is negative ... hell.

No, it's positive. Positive infinite value of life in heaven times non-zero probability that you end up in heaven anyway gives you a positive, infinite expected value.

Though you are right about one thing: there's also a non-zero chance that a person taking Pascal's Wager will, in spite of her efforts, end up with an infinite negative value in Hell.

When your math works out to both positive infinity and negative infinity, perhaps you have faulty math.