Armenian Catholics

[Godric2]

In what way do Armenian Catholics differ from the Armenian Church.
(I mean by 'Armenian Church' the Church which is 'Armenian Apostolic' - the ancient Church of Armenia)

I am thinking particualrly of liturgy or in appearance of the church.

And so if one went into an Armenian Catholic church would it be possible to tell it apart from an Armenian Church because of its appearance?

And is the liturgy different?

The Proficiscere

[Vico]

Originally Posted by Godric2

In what way do Armenian Catholics differ from the Armenian Church.
(I mean by 'Armenian Church' the Church which is 'Armenian Apostolic' - the ancient Church of Armenia)

I am thinking particualrly of liturgy or in appearance of the church.

And so if one went into an Armenian Catholic church would it be possible to tell it apart from an Armenian Church because of its appearance?

And is the liturgy different?

The Proficiscere

I spoke with an Armenian Orthodox priest about confession. He said they do not do personal private confession as in the Catholic Church. Members recieve absolution as a group before recieving the Eucharist.. In contrast the Armenian Catholic Church does have the sacrament of Reconciliation.

[Trebor135]

Originally Posted by Vico

I spoke with an Armenian Orthodox priest about confession. He said they do not do personal private confession as in the Catholic Church.

Did he mean that Armenian Orthodox all confess aloud their sins in front of the congregation rather than to the priest alone? Or that members of the congregation acknowledge their sins silently at the start of Divine Liturgy?

[Vico]

Originally Posted by Trebor135

Did he mean that Armenian Orthodox all confess aloud their sins in front of the congregation rather than to the priest alone? Or that members of the congregation acknowledge their sins silently at the start of Divine Liturgy?

Just before communion, there is a private prayer and then a public prayer with absolution for the communicants, and then another private prayer. The group confession is:

Confession (The Communicants kneel and make the sign of the cross.):

In the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the holy Spirit. Amen. I have sinned against the all-holy Trinity, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit; yea, I have sinned against God.

Priest: Pay God grant thee forgiveness.

I confess before God and before the holy mother of God, and before all the Saints, and before Thee, Holy Father, all the sins which I have committed. For I have sinned in thought, word and deed, willingly and unwillingly, knowingly and unknowingly. I have sinned against God. (Megha Asdoodzo.)

Priest: May God grant thee forgiveness.

I have also sinned by the sevenfold transgressions of the deadly sins; namely, by pride and all its forms; by envy and all its forms; by anger and all its forms; by sloth (laziness) and all its forms; by covetousness and all its forms; by gluttony and all its forms; by lust and all its forms (omitted by children). I have sinned against God. (Megha Asdoodzo.)

PRIEST: May God grant thee forgiveness.

I have sinned against my Christian duties. I was found unworthy of it by my works. While knowing the evil, yet I willingly gave way to it and from good works I purposely kept away; woe unto me (3 times). I have sinned against God. (Megha Asdoodzo.)

Priest: May God grant Thee forgiveness.

Reverend Father, I hold thee as reconciler and intercessor with the Only-begotten Son of God, that by power given to thee, thou wilt release me from the bond of my sins, I pray thee.

Priest (absolution) May God the lover of man have mercy upon thee, and grant thee forgiveness of all thy sins, both those which thou hast confessed, as well as those which thou hast forgotten. Therefore, with the priestly authority committed to me, and by the divine command that whatsoever ye loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven, I absolve thee of all participation in sin, in thought, in word, and in deed, in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and reinstate thee in the sacraments of the holy Church, that whatsoever good thou mayest do, may be accounted to thee for good and for the glory of the life to come. Amen.

Published by Raffi Kojian:
http://armeniapedia.org/index.php?ti...Divine_Liturgy

[Godric2]

Is the Armenian Liturgy the same as the Orthodox liturgy but in Armenian or is it different because they are not a Chalcedonian church?

The Proficiscere

[malphono]

Originally Posted by Godric2

Is the Armenian Liturgy the same as the Orthodox liturgy but in Armenian or is it different because they are not a Chalcedonian church?

It's not Byzantine, if that's what you meant.

[dzheremi]

The Armenian Liturgy is probably more familiar in at least some of its externals to RCs than are the other Oriental liturgies. The use of unleavened bread, for instance, is not something shared with any of Armenia's sister churches (e.g., Coptic, Syriac, Ethiopian, etc.), nor with the Byzantines, but of course is shared with the Latins. However, other things (the use of the curtain to obscure the altar at certain points, for instance) are of course in common with the other Oriental Orthodox churches and not with the Latins. Armenian Christianity is very old, so it has been through periods of distinct Syriac influence (as it was in the beginning, before St. Mesrop blessed their language with an alphabet of its own), Byzantine influence, and lastly Latin influence.

Here is a four-part video on the liturgy of the Armenian Orthodox Church, with explanatory narration in English:

part 1
part 2
part 3
part 4

[John of Patmos]

Originally Posted by dzheremi

The Armenian Liturgy is probably more familiar in at least some of its externals to RCs than are the other Oriental liturgies. The use of unleavened bread, for instance, is not something shared with any of Armenia's sister churches (e.g., Coptic, Syriac, Ethiopian, etc.), nor with the Byzantines, but of course is shared with the Latins. However, other things (the use of the curtain to obscure the altar at certain points, for instance) are of course in common with the other Oriental Orthodox churches and not with the Latins. Armenian Christianity is very old, so it has been through periods of distinct Syriac influence (as it was in the beginning, before St. Mesrop blessed their language with an alphabet of its own), Byzantine influence, and lastly Latin influence.

Here is a four-part video on the liturgy of the Armenian Orthodox Church, with explanatory narration in English:

part 1
part 2
part 3
part 4

Thank you!
I hope to watch ALL of it!
Do they cross themselves like the Latins?
I just found out that there is an Armenian Mission near me!

[dzheremi]

Well, yes and no, depending on what you mean by "like the Latins". They do cross left to right (as all Orientals do), but it is not in imitation of the Latins. The Latins actually originally crossed themselves as the Byzantines do (right to left), but switched at some point due to a mistake in mirroring the priest (source: video "A Brief Explanation of the Eastern Catholic Churches", Eparchy of Parma, 1992). The Orientals always crossed themselves left to right, even before the Latins made the switch, due to a different explanation of the significance of the direction than the Byzantines.

It is funny because some Byzantines think that this is a Latinization, without realizing that we were doing it this way for centuries before the Latins started doing it.

[John of Patmos]

In the video, the bishop wears a Romanesque mitre, while on liturgix (one fourth down), I saw what is stated to be the Armenian priestly mitre. Why the difference?

[dzheremi]

I'm not sure. I don't really know much about liturgical vesting, especially in the Armenian tradition (lack of exposure on my part). In the Coptic tradition, the priest wears a similar mitre (see here) during certain parts of the liturgy, though the headgear that is worn during other times (see here) is much more simple than the Armenian priestly mitre you linked to. Such wide variation is not unknown in the OO churches. I would guess, though, that there is probably a bit more fancy vestments to be worn in concelebration with a bishop, so that might explain it. I can't remember what our priest was wearing when HG Bishop Youssef last visited us, but I think it was something different than the usual.

[John of Patmos]

Originally Posted by Vico

Just before communion, there is a private prayer and then a public prayer with absolution for the communicants, and then another private prayer. The group confession is:

Confession (The Communicants kneel and make the sign of the cross.):

In the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the holy Spirit. Amen. I have sinned against the all-holy Trinity, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit; yea, I have sinned against God.

Priest: Pay God grant thee forgiveness.

I confess before God and before the holy mother of God, and before all the Saints, and before Thee, Holy Father, all the sins which I have committed. For I have sinned in thought, word and deed, willingly and unwillingly, knowingly and unknowingly. I have sinned against God. (Megha Asdoodzo.)

Priest: May God grant thee forgiveness.

I have also sinned by the sevenfold transgressions of the deadly sins; namely, by pride and all its forms; by envy and all its forms; by anger and all its forms; by sloth (laziness) and all its forms; by covetousness and all its forms; by gluttony and all its forms; by lust and all its forms (omitted by children). I have sinned against God. (Megha Asdoodzo.)

PRIEST: May God grant thee forgiveness.

I have sinned against my Christian duties. I was found unworthy of it by my works. While knowing the evil, yet I willingly gave way to it and from good works I purposely kept away; woe unto me (3 times). I have sinned against God. (Megha Asdoodzo.)

Priest: May God grant Thee forgiveness.

Reverend Father, I hold thee as reconciler and intercessor with the Only-begotten Son of God, that by power given to thee, thou wilt release me from the bond of my sins, I pray thee.

Priest (absolution) May God the lover of man have mercy upon thee, and grant thee forgiveness of all thy sins, both those which thou hast confessed, as well as those which thou hast forgotten. Therefore, with the priestly authority committed to me, and by the divine command that whatsoever ye loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven, I absolve thee of all participation in sin, in thought, in word, and in deed, in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and reinstate thee in the sacraments of the holy Church, that whatsoever good thou mayest do, may be accounted to thee for good and for the glory of the life to come. Amen.

Published by Raffi Kojian:
http://armeniapedia.org/index.php?ti...Divine_Liturgy

What does the Catholic Church say on this, since it is a rather broad confession?

[Vico]

Originally Posted by John of Patmos

What does the Catholic Church say on this, since it is a rather broad confession?

First, a Catholic would not confess in a non-Catholic Apostolic Church unless the circumstances made it morally impossible (and could avoid indifferentism) or life threatening. Then it is necessary to intend to confess individually in addition, for an eastern Catholic, and to confess individually in addition for a Latin Catholic.

CCEO Can. 721
§1 For a member of the Christian faithful to enjoy the sacramental absolution given to many at the same time, it is required not only that the person be properly disposed, but also at the same time intend in due time to confess individually the grave sins which at the present time cannot be confessed.
§2 As much as can be done, the Christian faithful are to be instructed concerning these requirements; an exhortation that each person take care to make an act of contrition is to precede general absolution, even in danger of death if time is available.

CIC Can. 960
Individual and integral confession and absolution constitute the sole ordinary means by which a member of the faithful who is conscious of grave sin is reconciled with God and with the Church. Physical or moral impossibility alone excuses from such confession, in which case reconciliation may be attained by other means also.

CIC Can. 962
§1 For a member of Christ's faithful to benefit validly from a sacramental absolution given to a number of people simultaneously, it is required not only that he or she be properly disposed, but be also at the same time personally resolved to confess in due time each of the grave sins which cannot for the moment be thus confessed.
§2 Christ's faithful are to be instructed about the requirements set out in §1, as far as possible even on the occasion of general absolution being received. An exhortation that each person should make an act of contrition is to precede a general absolution, even in the case of danger of death if there is time.

CIC Can. 963
Without prejudice to the obligation mentioned in can. 989, a person whose grave sins are forgiven by a general absolution, is as soon as possible, when the opportunity occurs, to make an individual confession before receiving another general absolution, unless a just reason intervenes.

[Alexander Roman]

As an aside, I once visited an Armenian Orthodox Church and noticed that every single car in the parking lot had an RC rosary on the rear-view mirror (I walked up and down to check every single car).

You wouldn't find that in many EO and EC church parking lots!

Also, the Armenian Catholic Order of Mekhitarists enjoy a tremendous esteem and respect among Armenians in general for their encyclopedic work to research and promote all aspects of Armenian national culture. This is probably a "one and only" in the history of the Eastern Churches.

Alex

[followingtheway]

Originally Posted by Vico

I spoke with an Armenian Orthodox priest about confession. He said they do not do personal private confession as in the Catholic Church. Members recieve absolution as a group.

My gosh, that must be embarrassing! I mean not absolution part, the saying your sins in front of other people part!