Need Help

Faith1960 · #1 May 1, '12, 12:12 pm

I'm in the middle of a thread on the Non-Catholic subforum about the human mind. What is is, how the mind is not the brain, etc. This conversation is way over my head. Can someone help my understand this topic better because while I'm no neuroscientist, I am still well aware that without my brain I can do nothing. I couldn't think, walk, type or recognize myself in a mirror. I couldn't even LIVE without it. Maybe basic, simple Philosophy 101?

PET scans show when the brain is active and in thought which further seems to indicate that thought comes from the brain. How can it not? Or are we to believe that all of neuroscience and all they've learned about the brain wrong, simply because Aquinas and other philosophers stated otherwise, centuries ago?

Faith1960 · #2 May 1, '12, 1:09 pm

Anyone? Anyone?

Robyn p · #3 May 1, '12, 1:18 pm

I'm with you, I didn't think there was a difference.

Then again, I'm no neurologist or philosopher

Sorry couldnt be more help

boomerang · #4 May 1, '12, 1:22 pm

Hello Faith1960: I read over the thread you referred to and I think you are right on. Some posters argue that because the angels and God have the ability to reason, that means the mind is separate from the brain. Well, in angels and other spirits the mind would have to be separate from the brain as they don't possess a brain. But with humans, all of our functioning of the "mind" is done through the vehicle of the brain. The "mind" is what the brain does. Just like flying is what an airplane does. You can't fly without an airplane, unless you're a bird. Birds are built to fly on their own. We aren't. We need a device to fly. We also need a device (brain) to think and be aware. We aren't built for awareness without the brain. But spirits are built to be aware and possess a mind without any physical body. As long as we are confined to our physical bodies, all sensation is filtered through that body and to the brain for processing. The mind and the brain are inseparable.

Comparing God's mind with our minds is a useless argument. Some of the posters must have a different idea completely as to what exactly constitutes "the mind". It's not my idea. There is no mind without a functioning brain. Maybe they are equating "mind" with soul which is vastly different.

You could also argue that the reason we have large, complex brains is so we can contemplate and understand God. Our amazing brains are way beyond what we need for bare survival. Why have these big brains? God gave them to us so we could have the intellect to worship him, and we need a mind, not just a brain, for that! Our big brains give us the ability to have a mind.

Faith1960 · #5 May 1, '12, 1:37 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by boomerang

Hello Faith1960: I read over the thread you referred to and I think you are right on. Some posters argue that because the angels and God have the ability to reason, that means the mind is separate from the brain. Well, in angels and other spirits the mind would have to be separate from the brain as they don't possess a brain. But with humans, all of our functioning of the "mind" is done through the vehicle of the brain. The "mind" is what the brain does. Just like flying is what an airplane does. You can't fly without an airplane, unless you're a bird. Birds are built to fly on their own. We aren't. We need a device to fly. We also need a device (brain) to think and be aware. We aren't built for awareness without the brain. But spirits are built to be aware and possess a mind without any physical body. As long as we are confined to our physical bodies, all sensation is filtered through that body and to the brain for processing. The mind and the brain are inseparable.

Comparing God's mind with our minds is a useless argument. Some of the posters must have a different idea completely as to what exactly constitutes "the mind". It's not my idea. There is no mind without a functioning brain. Maybe they are equating "mind" with soul which is vastly different.

You could also argue that the reason we have large, complex brains is so we can contemplate and understand God. Our amazing brains are way beyond what we need for bare survival. Why have these big brains? God gave them to us so we could have the intellect to worship him, and we need a mind, not just a brain, for that! Our big brains give us the ability to have a mind.

Thanks for your reply! I do think they may be equating mind with soul, which is also very confusing for me.

Faith1960 · #6 May 1, '12, 2:18 pm

I was told on the other subforum that as Christians we "can't believe that the brain is either the mind or it's origin," and "while the brain is essential for us in the material world, it does not mean that the brain is the origin of my capacity to 'know.'"
To me this makes absolutely no sense, whatsoever. I mean, that's what the human brain does. It funtions. I think I'd be hard pressed to find one single neurologist who would say otherwise. Or am I competely missing the boat on this one?
Another question, are we required as Catholics to believe otherwise, flying in the face of biology?

danserr · #7 May 1, '12, 5:56 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faith1960

I was told on the other subforum that as Christians we "can't believe that the brain is either the mind or it's origin," and "while the brain is essential for us in the material world, it does not mean that the brain is the origin of my capacity to 'know.'"
To me this makes absolutely no sense, whatsoever. I mean, that's what the human brain does. It funtions. I think I'd be hard pressed to find one single neurologist who would say otherwise. Or am I competely missing the boat on this one?
Another question, are we required as Catholics to believe otherwise, flying in the face of biology?

The brain is not the same thing as the mind (by mind we mean the immaterial element that some people call soul).

A possible Catholic view that is compatible with modern science is that the mind (soul) uses the brain like an instrument.

In this way it would not surprise us if science showed that thought came from the brain or if thinking was impaired if the brain was damaged. If my piano is damaged the music is of poorer quality.

Faith1960 · #8 May 1, '12, 6:31 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by danserr

The brain is not the same thing as the mind (by mind we mean the immaterial element that some people call soul).

A possible Catholic view that is compatible with modern science is that the mind (soul) uses the brain like an instrument.

In this way it would not surprise us if science showed that thought came from the brain or if thinking was impaired if the brain was damaged. If my piano is damaged the music is of poorer quality.

Can you explain further? You say a "possible Catholic view is compatible with moderN science...." Wouldn't that suggest that while it's possible that this explanation is correct, it's also possible that there is no way to reconcile this philosophical idea with modern science?

danserr · #9 May 2, '12, 6:04 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faith1960

Can you explain further? You say a "possible Catholic view is compatible with moderN science...." Wouldn't that suggest that while it's possible that this explanation is correct, it's also possible that there is no way to reconcile this philosophical idea with modern science?

By "possible" I meant that it is a view that it would be legitimate for a Catholic to hold (compatible with Church teaching. It is certainly compatible with modern science.

The idea is that some skeptics will try to use empirical observation to say "look, when the brain is damaged, human thought suffers. This proves that the mind is purely physical and there is no immaterial element like a soul."

The problem with this is that it does not show that the mind is purely material. It could be that the mind uses the brain like an instrument. Of course, when the instrument is damaged, then the mind will not be as effective (just as when I play a broken piano, the sound is less effective than with a good piano).

Faith1960 · #10 May 2, '12, 6:58 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by danserr

By "possible" I meant that it is a view that it would be legitimate for a Catholic to hold (compatible with Church teaching. It is certainly compatible with modern science.

The idea is that some skeptics will try to use empirical observation to say "look, when the brain is damaged, human thought suffers. This proves that the mind is purely physical and there is no immaterial element like a soul."

The problem with this is that it does not show that the mind is purely material. It could be that the mind uses the brain like an instrument. Of course, when the instrument is damaged, then the mind will not be as effective (just as when I play a broken piano, the sound is less effective than with a good piano).

What if that isn't accurate, either? Are we Catholics required to believe that the mind isn't the brain?

Faith1960 · #11 May 2, '12, 2:08 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faith1960

What if that isn't accurate, either? Are we Catholics required to believe that the mind isn't the brain?

?

danserr · #12 May 3, '12, 5:41 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faith1960

What if that isn't accurate, either? Are we Catholics required to believe that the mind isn't the brain?

Most people have thought so, but actually, a couple philosophers think that there is a way that Christians could deny the existence of the soul, but still have eternal life and the Resurrection of the body (this gets a little complicated, but it is in theory possible).

Make sure that you understand that by "mind" we mean "soul" or the immaterial element in a person. Catholics have typically held that such an element exists, and there are actually good philosophical reasons to think so (mostly involving refutations of determinism), but if someone wanted to be really stubborn and deny the existence of an immaterial mind or soul, then there is a way that person could still be a Christian.

Faith1960 · #13 May 3, '12, 7:06 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by danserr

Most people have thought so, but actually, a couple philosophers think that there is a way that Christians could deny the existence of the soul, but still have eternal life and the Resurrection of the body (this gets a little complicated, but it is in theory possible).

Most people have thought what? That the mind (soul) doesn't exist apart from the brain or that we can't be Christians if we don't believe this?

danserr · #14 May 4, '12, 6:32 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faith1960

Most people have thought what? That the mind (soul) doesn't exist apart from the brain or that we can't be Christians if we don't believe this?

Most Christians have typically thought that an immaterial element exists in human beings called a mind or a soul that cannot be reduced to simply the purely physical brain. I think there are good reasons for thinking that the soul exists and that the mind is not equivelant to the brain.

But, as I have said, some Christian philosophers have thought that there is a way to deny that the soul exists and still have this be compatible with Christian beliefs on eternal life and the Resurrection of the body.

boomerang · #15 May 1, '12, 5:59 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faith1960

I was told on the other subforum that as Christians we "can't believe that the brain is either the mind or it's origin," and "while the brain is essential for us in the material world, it does not mean that the brain is the origin of my capacity to 'know.'"
To me this makes absolutely no sense, whatsoever. I mean, that's what the human brain does. It funtions. I think I'd be hard pressed to find one single neurologist who would say otherwise. Or am I competely missing the boat on this one?
Another question, are we required as Catholics to believe otherwise, flying in the face of biology?

That sounds like a bunch of new-age poppycock to me. Nobody can "know" s**t from shinola without a functioning brain. Don't worry about "missing the boat". I think their boat was the Titanic!!!

God gave us brains so we could have common sense. If it flies in the face of common sense, it's probably safe to ignore it.