Friend is a budding Non-denom Pastor

Orionthehunter · #1 Jan 4, '06, 10:05 am

I have a good childhood friend. He subscribes to religion that believes that all Catholics are damned to Hell. We have had two verbal altercations on the issue but in the name of peace (without formally discussing it) we are just avoiding the issue of religion.

As a person, he is a good man, husband and father. His devotion to Christ is sincere and well-intentioned. After we graduated from High School, when he was in college, he developed a drug (pot) and alcohol addiction. His sobriety is the result of his spiritual conversion. For this reason, I've been understanding and supportive of his faith journey as I can see the work of hte Holy Spirit in his continued sobriety (now almost 25 years)

As my Catholic life is the centerpiece of my life and his faith is his, this "elephant in the room that nobody talks about" hinders us really having a relationship but our childhood bonds are very strong. So strong that if a member of my family had an emergency and in need of someone immediately and were near him, I'd ask him to intervene.

Now to my dilemma. He sends out periodic emails to friends and family regarding his effort to "plant a new church" where he will be the full-time pastor (he currently is doing it part-time). His congregation is currently worshipping in rented space but are in the process of buying land for a new worship facility.

My non-response to these emails I know is deafening. I just can't bring myself to respond as his theology is heresy. My Catholic heart wants to express my true feelings on his effort but I know it would fall on deaf ears (he'd attribute anything I say as being from Satan). Anything I say that appears to be positive would cause me great consternation such that I will wonder if it is sinful and possibly grave matter.

Is there anything that I can say to him as a friend that would also not appear to be condoning or encouraging to the theology dimensions of his effort?

spiritblows · #2 Jan 4, '06, 10:15 am

It sounds to me as if he has not held back his opinion of the Catholic Church. So, it seems that the only thing that will keep your 'friendship' alive is if you meekly keep your mouth shut, meanwhile he is free to send annoying emails that he knows you disagree with.

I don't know how old you are, but sometimes people with whom we've been friends with a long, long time develop philosophies and ideas that really become too much for the friendship to handle. In this case, a huge part of his life is totally out of harmony and in conflict with a huge part of your life.

In my opinion you should not hold back your opinions, and you should be prepared to let this friendship go. Remember, when one door closes, another opens. Probably there will be new and richer relationships in store for you down the road.

Orionthehunter · #3 Jan 4, '06, 10:36 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiritblows

It sounds to me as if he has not held back his opinion of the Catholic Church. So, it seems that the only thing that will keep your 'friendship' alive is if you meekly keep your mouth shut, meanwhile he is free to send annoying emails that he knows you disagree with.

I don't know how old you are, but sometimes people with whom we've been friends with a long, long time develop philosophies and ideas that really become too much for the friendship to handle. In this case, a huge part of his life is totally out of harmony and in conflict with a huge part of your life.

In my opinion you should not hold back your opinions, and you should be prepared to let this friendship go. Remember, when one door closes, another opens. Probably there will be new and richer relationships in store for you down the road.

Let me add a little clarity. When we had our verbal altercation, I let him have it to the point that I considered his prayers and desire that I leave the Church to be from Satan and that his rejection of the Magisteriam to be a rejection of the fruits of the Magisterium (the Bible) rendering his faith nothing but one grounded in superstition. It was from this explosion that we no longer talk about religion.

Regarding his emails, they aren't meant to antagonize. They are more like letters to his friends and family about his life. This is totally consistent w/ his social nature.

Finally, he is not just a friend that can be dismissed. His mother is a childhood friend of my mother and they talk regularly. His mother was a stay at home mom while my mom was a school teacher. His mother was "day care" when there wasn't formal day care but I just went there and we walked to and from school every day until we could drive. In many ways, our relationship is like cousins (can pick your friends but not your family

). I call his parents Aunt and Uncle and they always stop to see me when they are in my city. His younger brother is my brother's best friend.

Spirit, I appreciate your response. I don't know if this clarification changes your advice. I'm really searching for advice so anything is appreciated. P.S. I'm 45.

dulcissima · #4 Jan 4, '06, 11:55 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orionthehunter

I let him have it to the point that I considered his prayers and desire that I leave the Church to be from Satan and that his rejection of the Magisteriam to be a rejection of the fruits of the Magisterium (the Bible) rendering his faith nothing but one grounded in superstition. It was from this explosion that we no longer talk about religion.

It sounds like you two still need to have a talk about this. Maybe if you started with an apology....Maybe you both went a little bit too far? Do you think the two of you have matured enough in your lives and in your faith that you could have a gentle discussion on Christianity? I know from your background in the RCIA and your own non-judgmental ways that you are probably capable of this, yes?

Orionthehunter · #5 Jan 4, '06, 12:21 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dulcissima

It sounds like you two still need to have a talk about this. Maybe if you started with an apology....Maybe you both went a little bit too far? Do you think the two of you have matured enough in your lives and in your faith that you could have a gentle discussion on Christianity? I know from your background in the RCIA and your own non-judgmental ways that you are probably capable of this, yes?

I am very open to having this gentle conversation. However, I'm not confident that it would be fruitful. You have to keep in mind that he sincerely believes that I have absolutely no chance of going to Heaven as long as I remain Catholic.

I think that the conversation we had is behind us in that we have agreed to just not go there. But the essence of your advice is the heart of the matter. I feel that my silence regarding his efforts to plant this Church is percieved as un-Christian or un-caring which is not the case. I am grateful that his faith has helped him remain sober for about 25 years and can see how the Holy Spirit is with him in his life. He is truly a good man.

My struggle is how to express myself to him regarding his efforts to start this congregation without expressing agreement with his theology which is overt heresy. Additionally, I don't approve of his plan to leave his secular job to do this full-time as it will only pull him deeper into the heresy as becomes his livlihood. It will only make him more resistent to at minimum finding a more Biblical theology and being less hostile to the Catholic Church.

rayne89 · #6 Jan 4, '06, 12:42 pm

I would just ignore the church planting comments in the emails and pray for him. I'm quite sure he knows where you stand. Leave it in God's hands.

Sandi · #7 Jun 3, '07, 6:50 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rayne89

I would just ignore the church planting comments in the emails and pray for him. I'm quite sure he knows where you stand. Leave it in God's hands.

Good advice; sometimes you just have to keep your mouth shut and trust the situation in God's hands.

Orionthehunter · #8 Jun 20, '07, 6:47 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smber2c

As "Seminarian Matt" said, we are judged on our omissions as well. I'm not saying you will be damned for silence on this, but you should be trying to have whatever positive effect is possible (and it sounds like you are trying

).

On this earlier quote on God's plan being both complex and mysterious:

I just want to offer an opinion.

I know that God makes great good out of everything in the world. But just because God wrote straight with a crooked line in all of our lives, that doesn't mean it was His plan from the start. God's Master plan doesn't ever include our choosing sin, and thus every second He remakes the plan because someone failed somewhere.

C.S. Lewis wrote (in The Last Divorce, I believe) about how once a soul enters Heaven he will be able to look back and see just how every choice right or wrong was on touched by God and used to accomplish the salvatoin that he then enjoys. But he cautioned that one can never anticipate this sort of vision, because in doing so one can rationalize any sort of actions and will end up in hell.

If over the next several years this man hates the Church, God may find windows to his soul to pull him back to the full truth. But we can't presume that lies will better serve a person's salvation than truth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sandi

Good advice; sometimes you just have to keep your mouth shut and trust the situation in God's hands.

Two pieces of good advice but in conflict. What to do?

Normally, one could take the advice and just be quiet but one must remember that our conversations often include his comments that he loves me (good thing) and is praying for my conversion (good thing) because unless I leave the Church I will go to Hell. To remain silent is more than an ommission. There is an implication of agreement if I thank him for his prayers that I become a heretic. If I say nothing, I express ingratitude for prayers. If I respond by saying, don't make that prayer for me, it presents an attitude of arrogance that I don't need God's Providence.

And to respond to him as he is quite zealous in his religion with anything that implies he is wrong will drive a wedge between us. He is quick to distance himself from what he sees as from Satan. The last time it happened, he ceased conversation w/ me for a long time. But, as evidence that his love for me is real, after a time, he began to respond to emails, things softened (love is a wonderful thing) and it is back to "normal." I am going to Hell and he prays for me.

rwoehmke · #9 Jun 20, '07, 11:42 am

I assume that since you came through RCIA thatyou and your friend grew up as non-Catholics of some sort. While he is a heretic, the problem is far different than if he had been a practicing Catholic and split away. He probably does not see himself as a heretic, but as a faith filled Christian.

You are the one who chose to leave your childhood faith behind and become a Catholic, and a Roman one at that. Why are you surprised at his reaction?

You both obviously value the friendship and try not to do anything to put it in jeopardy, including allowing the elephant to be in the room with you. There are times to talk about the elephant and times not to. That is determined by what you believe will be accomplished by talking. In this case I think not much, but I am not the judge of that. You are.

He knows you are a Catholic and if you are close he must be able to observe how you live that Faith with no words being necessary. It is important that you try to live up to what it means to be a good Catholic. If indeed Satan has a hold on you as he says, he will be expecting some pretty bad behavior. When it doesn't come to pass. Guess what?The advice to hold him in prayer is good advice. To tell him so without explaining why is also good advice.

I think if you do that, no one, but an intolerant individual would fault you for committing a sin of omission. As they say in cards,"There is a time to hold'em and a time to fold'em." It requires listening to God in prayer and good judgement as to when and what you do in laying out your cards.

Orionthehunter · #10 Jun 20, '07, 12:16 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwoehmke

I assume that since you came through RCIA thatyou and your friend grew up as non-Catholics of some sort. While he is a heretic, the problem is far different than if he had been a practicing Catholic and split away. He probably does not see himself as a heretic, but as a faith filled Christian.

You are the one who chose to leave your childhood faith behind and become a Catholic, and a Roman one at that. Why are you surprised at his reaction?

You both obviously value the friendship and try not to do anything to put it in jeopardy, including allowing the elephant to be in the room with you. There are times to talk about the elephant and times not to. That is determined by what you believe will be accomplished by talking. In this case I think not much, but I am not the judge of that. You are.

He knows you are a Catholic and if you are close he must be able to observe how you live that Faith with no words being necessary. It is important that you try to live up to what it means to be a good Catholic. If indeed Satan has a hold on you as he says, he will be expecting some pretty bad behavior. When it doesn't come to pass. Guess what?The advice to hold him in prayer is good advice. To tell him so without explaining why is also good advice.

I think if you do that, no one, but an intolerant individual would fault you for committing a sin of omission. As they say in cards,"There is a time to hold'em and a time to fold'em." It requires listening to God in prayer and good judgement as to when and what you do in laying out your cards.

FYI: I am a cradle Catholic and my primary association w/ RCIA has been on our parish RCIA team. We have known each other since we were babies. His families faith tradition is Methodist but he is now what he refers to a member of a Bible based faith community. I would call it a denomination of one or two loosely related faith communities.

rayne89 · #11 Jun 20, '07, 12:20 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orionthehunter

Normally, one could take the advice and just be quiet but one must remember that our conversations often include his comments that he loves me (good thing) and is praying for my conversion (good thing) because unless I leave the Church I will go to Hell.

Wow, I would have a hard time continuing a friendship with someone who says things like that. Maybe you should reply "I pray the same thing...for you."

Really you must have deep ties to this person to keep a friendship with someone that is damning you to hell.

Orionthehunter · #12 Jun 20, '07, 1:41 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rayne89

Wow, I would have a hard time continuing a friendship with someone who says things like that. Maybe you should reply "I pray the same thing...for you."

Really you must have deep ties to this person to keep a friendship with someone that is damning you to hell.

I've known him since we were babies. Despite his errant views regarding our faith, he definitely is touched by Christ as his love is apparent even when saying these things. His lack of hate is truly inspired. I'm sure you'd have no problem loving him as well. He would make you mad for sure and sometimes separation is required so we don't kill each other in anger

.

But, he is not damning me to Hell. He desires me to go to Heaven. He is just expressing out of his love his errant belief that my faith is an impediment to my Salvation.

gardenswithkids · #13 Jun 20, '07, 9:21 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orionthehunter

...Normally, one could take the advice and just be quiet but one must remember that our conversations often include his comments that he loves me (good thing) and is praying for my conversion (good thing) because unless I leave the Church I will go to Hell. To remain silent is more than an ommission. There is an implication of agreement if I thank him for his prayers that I become a heretic. If I say nothing, I express ingratitude for prayers. If I respond by saying, don't make that prayer for me, it presents an attitude of arrogance that I don't need God's Providence.

And to respond to him as he is quite zealous in his religion with anything that implies he is wrong will drive a wedge between us. He is quick to distance himself from what he sees as from Satan. ...

Can you respond with something like, "Thank you for your praying that I don't go to hell. I don't want to go to hell either. I know you pray that I leave the Catholic Church out of love, but you must know by now I don't believe that Catholics go to hell simply for being Catholic. Let's trust God will hear the prayers of your heart for me and listen to your pleas to save me from hell. I pray for you too." (Sounds like the prayers of his heart are that you don't go to hell--and the prayers for you to leave the Church are only made because he thinks Catholics end up in hell.)

PaulGH · #14 Jun 20, '07, 9:35 pm

When your friend sends out e-mails about his church-planting activities, perhaps a response along the following lines would be appropriate:

"I rejoice at your faith in Christ, and at the many blessings that He has given you. I also rejoice in your efforts to lead others to know Christ. As you probably know, I do disagree with some of your beliefs and methods, just as you disagree with some of mine. And because of these disagreements, I may not be able to support you wholeheartedly in your church-planting and pastoring activities. But still please know that you are in my prayers, and that I fully support your ultimate goal of leading people to Christ."

My two cents anyway.

Paul

PaulGH · #15 Jun 20, '07, 9:43 pm

Also, one more piece of advice, for what it's worth: If you can talk to him about religion without getting into an argument, then do so, maybe on a semi-regular basis. Don't be afraid to talk about areas where you disagree, as long as you can both do so charitably. But also make sure to really talk up the areas where you agree. Talk about the power of prayer in your life, what blessings God has given you, and things like that. Your example of your own faith just might be the best way to get him to see that, gee, some Catholics actually act is if they might be *Christian*! Who would have thunk such a thing?