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  #136  
Old Nov 16, '12, 2:15 pm
Eufrosnia Eufrosnia is offline
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Default Re: How do we read Vatican II in the light of tradition that comes out of the Council of Trent?

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Originally Posted by trent11 View Post
Agreed, and the authority has spoken clearly and and unambiguously that the Sacrament of Baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation without exception. If you need the interpretations of Trent read in this light, I can quote you the Catechism of the Council of Trent if you'd like? It is more emphatic over this. But remember, Catechisms, theologians, even the Ordinary Magisterium, when it is speaking as the Authentic Magisterium, can error when it is not speaking in line with dogma and tradition.
But aren't you essentially pitting one council against another? Or in a way, one set of Apostolic Successors at one time period against another?
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  #137  
Old Nov 16, '12, 2:19 pm
mgsk mgsk is offline
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Default Re: How do we read Vatican II in the light of tradition that comes out of the Council of Trent?

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Originally Posted by Eufrosnia View Post
Hi, I replied to one of your posts here

Did you miss it?
No, but that priest wasn't arguing against baptism of desire, so I didn't really understand what I was supposed to take from your post
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  #138  
Old Nov 16, '12, 2:28 pm
Eufrosnia Eufrosnia is offline
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Default Re: How do we read Vatican II in the light of tradition that comes out of the Council of Trent?

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Originally Posted by mgsk View Post
No, but that priest wasn't arguing against baptism of desire, so I didn't really understand what I was supposed to take from your post
Oh ok. Well what I meant to say was that with any position regarding any issue, there would be logically consistent positions that do contradict each other.

In such an event, should it not the Church that decides which is right?
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  #139  
Old Nov 16, '12, 2:45 pm
Usagi Usagi is offline
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Default Re: How do we read Vatican II in the light of tradition that comes out of the Council of Trent?

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Originally Posted by mgsk View Post
That's not the whole story. "I vow to change nothing of the received Tradition, and nothing thereof I have found before me guarded by my God-pleasing predecessors, to encroach upon, to alter, or to permit any innovation therein".
And the current Pope insists that VII may not be read as violating that precept, whether the one doing the reading regards the later council as a wonderful replacement or a terrible ruin of what came before.

"Other Christian communities retain elements of truth and sanctification that they got from us" is not to be read as "And therefore other Christians are A-OK where they are," but as "And that's a better starting point for revealing to them the rest of the truth than calling them hellbound heretics." We must observe that this works. The Catholic Church recently achieved intercommunion with the Assyrian Church of the East, which had been separated from us since Chalcedon (IIRC), by sitting down like adults and talking out our differences, whereupon it turned out that both churches had been trying to defend the same truth but insisting on different words for somewhere around 1500 years.

"Even non-Christian religions have an orientation toward truth-seeking and may have arrived at some elements of the truth" is not to be understood as "all religions are equally true, and salvific to boot," but again as "we can start from where they are instead of denouncing everything they presently hold dear as an artifice of Satan." Missionaries back to St. Paul have used the tack of "Sounds as though your stories contain some knowledge of the real God, let me tell you more," so it's hardly an idea born of modernism.

"God may have mysterious means of providing the grace of baptism to those who were unable to receive the sacrament itself in this life" doesn't mean "So don't bother evangelizing anybody" or even "God will totally save all those people," and certainly not "Those people will be saved BY their ignorance, whereas they've have had a harder time of it had they become Catholic." It's merely a reminder to trust in God's mercy and not lose hope for the people we couldn't get to in time, whether because they lived on a continent unknown to Christendom until after their lifetimes or because they died so early in life that baptism was impossible. Yes, many of the Fathers stressed the absolute necessity of baptism, and for good reason. But the Lord and the Apostles from which they received that teaching also taught of God's perfect justice and mercy and His universal salvific will. I don't believe there's anything in the modern documents that forbids believing that God miraculously sent an angel or missionary to instruct and baptize those He foreknew would respond to His grace, and that everyone else was justly condemned. Maybe that's what we'll find out at the Judgment. On the other hand, we may learn that God supplied the grace of baptism to some people without the water, as the Church seems largely to accept that He will for formal catechumens who die either of persecution or by ordinary causes before their fully-intended baptism.

Usagi
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  #140  
Old Nov 16, '12, 2:52 pm
T More T More is offline
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Default Re: How do we read Vatican II in the light of tradition that comes out of the Council of Trent?

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Originally Posted by Melchior_ View Post
None of this;

- Covers wanderer's question about desire. If desire is needed, that contradicts the notion of infant baptism expressed the documents you quoted, because a child cannot desire.

So why do DO we baptize infants? And why do we have the sacrament of confirmation?

- Trent contradicts the Didache, in which is says that if "living" water is not available then non-living water may suffice.

Is the Didache infallible? We know that Trent is because it is ex cathedra. So you tell me? Can we hang on our hope on document like the Didache, a document that, while helpful with historical context, we do not know for certain who or where it came from?

Can we define what it means by living and non living water? It does not say that lack of water is still sufficient. In addition, "may suffice" is not the same as "will suffice".




- None of this excludes that a baptism of desire

And it doesn't include it. It would seem that the Council of Trent would've had the perfect chance to do so, considering the revolt going on at that time.

can happen to those who cannot reach water in time to be baptized. Would you say that someone with mortal sin who is on their way to confession and were to die, they would go to Hell?

I offer this:

"It does not suffice to believe. He who believes and is not yet baptized, but is only a Catechumen, has not yet fully acquired salvation." St. Thomas Aquinas

"Now, even the Catechumen believes in the Cross of the Lord Jesus, but unless he be baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, he cannot receive remission of his sins nor the gift of spiritual grace." St. Ambrose


"Neither commemoration nor chanting is to be employed for catechumens who have died without Baptism." Council of Braga


"No one, even if he pour out his blood for the name of Christ, can be saved unless he remain within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church." Council of Florence









So the question at that point becomes; what if someone converts but they do not get the chance to be baptized? Are those in RCIA going to Hell? Are those who are on their deathbeds and die waiting for the priest to show up for Last Rites going to Hell? Are those who, before they die, realize the Truth going to go to Hell?

See the quotes above.

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  #141  
Old Nov 16, '12, 3:05 pm
thewanderer thewanderer is online now
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Default Re: How do we read Vatican II in the light of tradition that comes out of the Council of Trent?

Quote:
Posted by T_Moore
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melchior_
None of this;

- Covers wanderer's question about desire. If desire is needed, that contradicts the notion of infant baptism expressed the documents you quoted, because a child cannot desire.

So why do DO we baptize infants? And why do we have the sacrament of confirmation?

So I take it that you are accepting the opinion which contradicts this statement from Trent?

Quote:
or if he denies that the said merit of Jesus Christ is applied, both to adults and to infants, by the sacrament of baptism rightly administered in the form of the church; let him be anathema


In other words, you are accepting a position which the Church has declared anathema?
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  #142  
Old Nov 16, '12, 3:47 pm
Melchior_ Melchior_ is offline
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Default Re: How do we read Vatican II in the light of tradition that comes out of the Council of Trent?

You ignored my own Aquinas quote. Assuming that those two cancel each other out, you ignored my entire post where I mentioned twenty five theologians supporting (including two Doctors) my view. The link I provided came from a traditionalist site, no less.
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  #143  
Old Nov 16, '12, 3:57 pm
Melchior_ Melchior_ is offline
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Default Re: How do we read Vatican II in the light of tradition that comes out of the Council of Trent?

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Originally Posted by mgsk View Post
That's not the whole story. "I vow to change nothing of the received Tradition, and nothing thereof I have found before me guarded by my God-pleasing predecessors, to encroach upon, to alter, or to permit any innovation therein".
The quote I gave was in the appendix. Every Pope can, and should, exercise the power granted to him through having the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven. Benedict has done this.

Why are some traditionalists struggling so much with the concept of holy obedience and assent to the Pope? I certain expect this from "liberals", however holy obedience and assent to the Pontiff is a very traditional (and Traditional) matter.

The quote you gave is from Paul VI saying that he would not change Tradition, and he did not.
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  #144  
Old Nov 16, '12, 4:10 pm
T More T More is offline
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Default Re: How do we read Vatican II in the light of tradition that comes out of the Council of Trent?

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Originally Posted by thewanderer View Post
[/i]
So I take it that you are accepting the opinion which contradicts this statement from Trent?



In other words, you are accepting a position which the Church has declared anathema?
I absolutely accept all infallibly defined dogma. The question(s) were rhetorical. If actual water is essential to the infant's salvation (which is why it has been a practice since the beginning in the Eastern and Western churches), then why is not for adults?
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  #145  
Old Nov 16, '12, 4:15 pm
Melchior_ Melchior_ is offline
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Default Re: How do we read Vatican II in the light of tradition that comes out of the Council of Trent?

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Originally Posted by T More View Post
I absolutely accept all infallibly defined dogma. The question(s) were rhetorical. If actual water is essential to the infant's salvation (which is why it has been a practice since the beginning in the Eastern and Western churches), then why is not for adults?
Hold up. Does that mean that miscarried or aborted children don't go into Heaven? Children born after delivery, before their baptism go to Hell?
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  #146  
Old Nov 16, '12, 4:42 pm
thewanderer thewanderer is online now
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Default Re: How do we read Vatican II in the light of tradition that comes out of the Council of Trent?

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Originally Posted by T More View Post
I absolutely accept all infallibly defined dogma. The question(s) were rhetorical. If actual water is essential to the infant's salvation (which is why it has been a practice since the beginning in the Eastern and Western churches), then why is not for adults?
All right, if you accept that it is not necessary for both to take place how in the world do you understand this quote from Trent

Quote:
indeed, this transition, once the gospel has been promulgated, cannot take place without the laver of regeneration or a desire for it
I know of no way to understand this without contradicting the other dogmatic proclamation without understanding it to say that either one or the other is necessary. Can you please explain how the latin word "Aut" is being used here that neither contradicts this other statement nor amounts to saying either/or?
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  #147  
Old Nov 16, '12, 5:40 pm
mgsk mgsk is offline
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Default Re: How do we read Vatican II in the light of tradition that comes out of the Council of Trent?

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Originally Posted by Melchior_ View Post
Hold up. Does that mean that miscarried or aborted children don't go into Heaven? Children born after delivery, before their baptism go to Hell?
We can't be certain, but none of us deserves Heaven in our natural state, so it certainly isn't a given. All the current Catechism says is that we have to entrust their souls to God's Mercy. That doesn't change the fact that they still have Original Sin. And that's part of what makes abortion such a terrible crime - Pope Sixtus V defended the death penalty for those who committed abortions in the Papal States by saying:

"Who, therefore, would not condemn and punish with the utmost severity the desecration committed by one who has excluded such a soul from the blessed vision of God? Such a one has done all he or she could possibly have done to prevent this soul from reaching the place prepared for it in heaven, and has deprived God of the service of this His own creature."

They are obviously not guilty of personal sin, but Original Sin is still incompatible with the life of grace in the soul. That's why so many people suggested Limbo as a possibility for so long - a state of purely natural happiness, but not the Beatific Vision.
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  #148  
Old Nov 17, '12, 2:39 am
Melchior_ Melchior_ is offline
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Default Re: How do we read Vatican II in the light of tradition that comes out of the Council of Trent?

As stated in the International Theological Commission's document on the question:

Because children below the age of reason did not commit actual sin, theologians came to the common view that these unbaptized children feel no pain at all or even that they enjoy a full, though only natural, happiness through their mediated union with God in all natural goods (Thomas Aquinas, Duns Scotus)

Hell is zero union with God, so if there is union there they must be in Heaven. My earlier quote from Aquinas also indicates he thought even adults could have baptism by desire, albeit with purgatory involved.

In its 1980 instruction on children's baptism the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith: "with regard to children who die without having received baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as indeed she does in the funeral rite established for them,"

International Theological Commission strikes again: Our conclusion is that the many factors that we have considered above give serious theological and liturgical grounds for hope that unbaptized infants who die will be saved and enjoy the beatific vision. We emphasize that these are reasons for prayerful hope, rather than grounds for sure knowledge. There is much that simply has not been revealed to us. We live by faith and hope in the God of mercy and love who has been revealed to us in Christ, and the Spirit moves us to pray in constant thankfulness and joy.

What has been revealed to us is that the ordinary way of salvation is by the sacrament of baptism. None of the above considerations should be taken as qualifying the necessity of baptism or justifying delay in administering the sacrament. Rather, as we want to reaffirm in conclusion, they provide strong grounds for hope that God will save infants when we have not been able to do for them what we would have wished to do, namely, to baptize them into the faith and life of the Church.


Also, please tell me, if there is no baptism of desire and/or baptism of blood, why do these guys have a feast day?
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  #149  
Old Nov 17, '12, 5:15 am
Melchior_ Melchior_ is offline
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Default Re: How do we read Vatican II in the light of tradition that comes out of the Council of Trent?

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Originally Posted by Melchior_ View Post
Also, please tell me, if there is no baptism of desire and/or baptism of blood, why do these guys have a feast day?
Now that I think about it, this guy was never baptized either.
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  #150  
Old Nov 17, '12, 6:24 am
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Default Re: How do we read Vatican II in the light of tradition that comes out of the Council of Trent?

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Originally Posted by Melchior_ View Post
Now that I think about it, this guy was never baptized either.
These examples happened under the old covenant law. Christ had not ascended into heaven, and the Holy Ghost had not yet descended at Pentecost.
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