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  #46  
Old Nov 16, '12, 9:12 pm
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Nan S Nan S is offline
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Default Re: Mormons, Please Explain Your Thoughts on the Eucharist!

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Originally Posted by batman1973 View Post
Here's what gets me: from The Doctrine and Covenants (Section 89 LDS, 86 RLDS, the so-called "Word of Wisdom") "That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.

And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make."

Why the Mormons chose water is beyond me.
The justification for changing from wine to water comes from the Mormon belief that God continues to make new revelations.

First, note the verse says "should" and not "must." That leaves the door wide open. Next note that it says "of your own make." When you're not allowed to sub-contract production to the local heathens, that opens up a whole host of new issues. First you have to procure vineyards. Next hope the crops don't fail. Then try to produce, bottle, store, and ship enough for everyone.

The in-house production of wine, even though just intended for sacramental use, was a huge temptation for the workmen and contrary to the whole temperance movement.

I'm sure it was a big relief when the Mormon leadership announced that God would be just fine with using water instead of wine.
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  #47  
Old Nov 16, '12, 9:28 pm
RebeccaJ RebeccaJ is offline
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Default Re: Mormons, Please Explain Your Thoughts on the Eucharist!

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Originally Posted by Nan S View Post
The justification for changing from wine to water comes from the Mormon belief that God continues to make new revelations.

First, note the verse says "should" and not "must." That leaves the door wide open. Next note that it says "of your own make." When you're not allowed to sub-contract production to the local heathens, that opens up a whole host of new issues. First you have to procure vineyards. Next hope the crops don't fail. Then try to produce, bottle, store, and ship enough for everyone.

The in-house production of wine, even though just intended for sacramental use, was a huge temptation for the workmen and contrary to the whole temperance movement.

I'm sure it was a big relief when the Mormon leadership announced that God would be just fine with using water instead of wine.
The Mormons established vineyards in Utah specifically to provide their own wines as based on Smith's "revelation". There is one less than a mile from my house.

I've never seen, what Fatboys would call, any official Mormon doctrine (that is in their scriptures) on who or why they stopped using wine and started using water.
  #48  
Old Nov 16, '12, 9:37 pm
Schism hater Schism hater is offline
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Default Re: Mormons, Please Explain Your Thoughts on the Eucharist!

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Originally Posted by Nan S View Post
I'm going to disagree with the unfermented grape juice. Here's why:

-- Israel had, and still does have, growing seasons. Grapes are always harvested between late August and early October.
-- Passover is in the spring, about six months after the grape harvest.
-- Very few people in Jesus' day had access to reliable refrigerators, and FedEx hadn't yet started overnight deliveries to Jerusalem.
-- Grapes that are unrefrigerated will rot fast, and unfermented grape juice spoils even faster. Just ask the mother of any two-year-old who hid his sippy cup under the back seat of the car.
-- The only way the Jews had to preserve the grape juice was to ferment it.
-- The bible makes no report of Jesus transforming water into wine at the Last Supper. That miracle occurred about three years earlier. Furthermore, the apostles never performed the water-to-wine miracle when preparing to celebrate the Lord's supper.

The only reasonable conclusion is that Jesus shared fermented wine at the Last Supper.
I wrote with the limited purpose of confronting Fatboys with reasons why water is clearly not appropriate. I am Orthodox and we use wine; I wasn't making any argument for using grape juice intead of wine. That's an entirely different discussion. Please.
  #49  
Old Nov 17, '12, 12:33 am
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Default Re: Mormons, Please Explain Your Thoughts on the Eucharist!

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Originally Posted by Schism hater View Post
I wrote with the limited purpose of confronting Fatboys with reasons why water is clearly not appropriate. I am Orthodox and we use wine; I wasn't making any argument for using grape juice intead of wine. That's an entirely different discussion. Please.
I apologize for the too-rapid response. I was recollecting the times when I butted heads with fundamentalists who insist that the Catholics are wrong for using fermented wine because supposedly Jesus drank only "new" wine. They wouldn't back down until I proved that there were times when Jesus had to have consumed the fermented variety.

ETA: Some Mormons also circulate the "only unfermented grape juice" myth.
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Last edited by Nan S; Nov 17, '12 at 12:49 am.
  #50  
Old Nov 17, '12, 12:35 am
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scameter18 scameter18 is offline
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Default Re: Mormons, Please Explain Your Thoughts on the Eucharist!

John 6 seems to clarify it pretty well.
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  #51  
Old Nov 17, '12, 12:57 am
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Default Re: Mormons, Please Explain Your Thoughts on the Eucharist!

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I've never seen, what Fatboys would call, any official Mormon doctrine (that is in their scriptures) on who or why they stopped using wine and started using water.
Check D&C 27:1-2:
Quote:
The Lord revealed, "that it mattereth not what ye shall eat or what ye shall drink when ye partake of the sacrament, if it so be that ye do it with an eye single to my gloryŚremembering unto the Father my body which was laid down for you, and my blood which was shed for the remission of your sins"
According to some sources the use of wine was dropped as a temperance issue. Others say it had to do with the source of the wine being suspect; that the wine may have been poisoned.
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I got nothing I asked for, but everything I hoped for!
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  #52  
Old Nov 17, '12, 1:48 am
RebeccaJ RebeccaJ is offline
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Default Re: Mormons, Please Explain Your Thoughts on the Eucharist!

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Originally Posted by Nan S View Post
Check D&C 27:1-2:
Yes, that is the same scripture that prompted Mormons to plant vineyards in Deseret (present day Utah/Idaho/Arizona/Nevada).

lds.org seems to be down at the moment, but if you continue reading past verse 2, that is where the directive is given to use wine of their own making.

So, they were using wine of their own making according to this scripture, and then for some unknown and undefined reason, stopped.

Some of the vineyards are still here.

Quote:
According to some sources the use of wine was dropped as a temperance issue. Others say it had to do with the source of the wine being suspect; that the wine may have been poisoned.
Historical sources show that by 1875, UT was producing about 1500 barrels of wine. Not bad, and certainly enough to provide wine for sacrament usage.
  #53  
Old Nov 17, '12, 1:48 am
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Default Re: Mormons, Please Explain Your Thoughts on the Eucharist!

No kidding, now that is a piece of history. So thats Joe Smith speaking for Jesus?
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  #54  
Old Nov 17, '12, 1:51 am
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Default Re: Mormons, Please Explain Your Thoughts on the Eucharist!

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Originally Posted by RebeccaJ View Post
, UT was producing about 1500 barrels of wine. Not bad, and certainly enough to provide wine for sacrament usage.
Certainly enough.
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"Eternal Father, I offer Thee the Most Precious Blood of Thy Divine Son, Jesus, in union with the Masses said throughout the world today, for all the Holy Souls in Purgatory, for sinners everywhere, for sinners in the universal church, those in my own home and within my family. Amen." St. Gertrude
  #55  
Old Nov 17, '12, 6:53 am
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Nan S Nan S is offline
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Default Re: Mormons, Please Explain Your Thoughts on the Eucharist!

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Historical sources show that by 1875, UT was producing about 1500 barrels of wine. Not bad, and certainly enough to provide wine for sacrament usage.
In 1875 the problem was not the volume produced. It was the horse-and-carriage distribution system. To have sufficient approved wine on hand for continuous routine use, a ward located more than a day's ride away would have to stockpile.
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I asked God for all things that I might enjoy life; God gave me life that I might enjoy all things.
I got nothing I asked for, but everything I hoped for!
I am, among all men, most richly blessed!!!
  #56  
Old Nov 17, '12, 10:30 am
RebeccaJ RebeccaJ is offline
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Default Re: Mormons, Please Explain Your Thoughts on the Eucharist!

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Originally Posted by Nan S View Post
In 1875 the problem was not the volume produced. It was the horse-and-carriage distribution system. To have sufficient approved wine on hand for continuous routine use, a ward located more than a day's ride away would have to stockpile.
Interesting idea. It would explain why there were vineyards/wineries that sprouted up around the major towns of Deseret. I can't see how supplying towns further away would be any more logistically limiting than providing them with basic needs, such that you would buy at a mercantile.
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