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  #136  
Old Dec 5, '12, 1:37 pm
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iloveangels iloveangels is offline
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Default Re: Gonzaga University will cover contraception but promises to clearly communicate Church teaching

I like the Motu Proprio. I think it's a good thing and I wish we'd gotten it a long time ago. But it does address some of our problems.
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  #137  
Old Dec 5, '12, 1:38 pm
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Default Re: Gonzaga University will cover contraception but promises to clearly communicate Church teaching

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Originally Posted by scipio337 View Post
"I can pick and choose which parts of my faith I want to apply to my political life, while claiming it defines who I am".
Right. It's ok to impose one's religious beliefs regarding care for the poor, but not ok to do so when it comes to abortion.
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  #138  
Old Dec 5, '12, 1:48 pm
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Default Re: Gonzaga University will cover contraception but promises to clearly communicate Church teaching

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Originally Posted by Rence View Post
Yes, my reasoning would be the same: It's a government mandate made across the board for everyone.
Ok, your principle applies to contraception, and apparently abortion. So why then does it not extend to anything, even hypotheticals like infanticide? Principles apply to all cases, actual or hypothetical. So, what about coverage for infanticide? Euthanasia? Female circumcision?

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Originally Posted by Rence View Post
I still want to know why paying one's taxes (which also provides ABCs benefits) is different than this HHS mandate. They're both the same. They both provide services that in it include ABCs. So why are some people choosing to plan to get around the HHS mandate but they think it's ok to continue paying taxes. The two senarios are the same.
They aren't the same. One is removed, one is direct. The HHS mandate requires entities (organizations, companies, individuals, etc) to directly fund services contrary to religious belief. Taxes are indirect. It is the government paying for ABCs, not the individual organization. There is an extra layer.

And, in case you haven't noticed, we are opposed to government funding of ABCs and other such services. They are both equally opposed. But one directly interferes in an organizations religious beliefs.

If you are unable to recognize the difference, I'm not sure how to explain it to you.
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  #139  
Old Dec 5, '12, 3:08 pm
Stephen168 Stephen168 is offline
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Default Re: Gonzaga University will cover contraception but promises to clearly communicate Church teaching

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Originally Posted by Suudy View Post
Ok, your principle applies to contraception, and apparently abortion. So why then does it not extend to anything, even hypotheticals like infanticide? Principles apply to all cases, actual or hypothetical. So, what about coverage for infanticide? Euthanasia? Female circumcision?
She is a big fan of free stuff for women because she pays taxes. She shouldn't have a problem with free female infanticide, female euthanasia, or female circumcision.
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  #140  
Old Dec 5, '12, 4:38 pm
JimG JimG is offline
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Default Re: Gonzaga University will cover contraception but promises to clearly communicate Church teaching

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Originally Posted by iloveangels View Post
I like the Motu Proprio. I think it's a good thing and I wish we'd gotten it a long time ago. But it does address some of our problems.
It is noteworthy that the very first paragraphs of the motu proprio state that the Church has a 3-fold responsibility: to proclaim the gospel, to celebrate the sacraments, and to exercise the ministry of charity [i.e., the corporal and spiritual works of mercy], and that these three presuppose each other and are inseparable.

It is the government which wants to separate the the Church from that last item, not only denying that it is a mission of the Church, but deciding as a matter of Federal regulation that doing the works of charity make an institution NON-religious!
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  #141  
Old Dec 5, '12, 10:37 pm
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iloveangels iloveangels is offline
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Default Re: Gonzaga University will cover contraception but promises to clearly communicate Church teaching

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It is noteworthy that the very first paragraphs of the motu proprio state that the Church has a 3-fold responsibility: to proclaim the gospel, to celebrate the sacraments, and to exercise the ministry of charity [i.e., the corporal and spiritual works of mercy], and that these three presuppose each other and are inseparable.

It is the government which wants to separate the the Church from that last item, not only denying that it is a mission of the Church, but deciding as a matter of Federal regulation that doing the works of charity make an institution NON-religious!
We know that. The interesting stuff is in the dispositive section about half-way down.
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  #142  
Old Dec 5, '12, 10:58 pm
CMatt25 CMatt25 is offline
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Default Re: Gonzaga University will cover contraception but promises to clearly communicate Church teaching

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Originally Posted by iloveangels View Post
I like the Motu Proprio. I think it's a good thing and I wish we'd gotten it a long time ago. But it does address some of our problems.
I tried reading it from one of your links but I didn't get far before it jumped to another webpage. And another link didn't work for me. I'm not sure but from the little I was able to read though it looked to be Catholic related but I was unable to get far into it. I'm glad you like it though.
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  #143  
Old Dec 5, '12, 11:01 pm
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iloveangels iloveangels is offline
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Default Re: Gonzaga University will cover contraception but promises to clearly communicate Church teaching

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Originally Posted by CMatt25 View Post
I tried reading it from one of your links but I didn't get far before it jumped to another webpage. And another link didn't work for me. I'm not sure but from the little I was able to read though it looked to be Catholic related but I was unable to get far into it. I'm glad you like it though.
Here's a better copy from the VATICAN WEBSITE: http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/be...aritas_en.html

There's an intro, and then there's the Dispositive Part which has the direct instructions in it.
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  #144  
Old Dec 5, '12, 11:11 pm
CMatt25 CMatt25 is offline
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Default Re: Gonzaga University will cover contraception but promises to clearly communicate Church teaching

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Originally Posted by scipio337 View Post
You mean, like Joe Biden?



The translation here is:

"I can pick and choose which parts of my faith I want to apply to my political life, while claiming it defines who I am".

I didn't notice the ACLU screaming that VP Biden was violating the establishment clause by wanting to impose Catholic Social Doctrine on our pluralistic society.

Yet somehow, that's the case when Catholics just want to protect their own conscience. That to me is very sad.
Like Joe Biden, Nancy Pelosi, and many other Catholics who if you asked your church's answer, She would answer they are considered to be Catholics. Protestants and other faith groups also espouse a social doctrine of serving the poor. So social doctrine encompasses many faiths. But there are for instance non Catholic Christian Protestants and Jews who are pro choice. That's a difference I see in why you can not compare the 2 directly.
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  #145  
Old Dec 5, '12, 11:38 pm
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NeedsMercy NeedsMercy is offline
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Default Re: Gonzaga University will cover contraception but promises to clearly communicate Church teaching

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Originally Posted by fix View Post
What makes their use lack charity? Promoting contraception and illicit sexual activity is evil. No one has claimed to judge any person's soul, but actions and words certainly must be judged.
I’ll address this, but I’m veering totally OT. First, take a look at CCC 1825, wherein the Apostle Paul’s definition of love (charity) is cited:

1825 Christ died out of love for us, while we were still "enemies."100 The Lord asks us to love as he does, even our enemies, to make ourselves the neighbor of those farthest away, and to love children and the poor as Christ himself.101

The Apostle Paul has given an incomparable depiction of charity: "charity is patient and kind, charity is not jealous or boastful; it is not arrogant or rude. Charity does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right. Charity bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things."102

Is name-calling a way of loving others as Jesus loves us? I doubt it.

Now, you say that sw85’s epithets do not “lack charity” because Ms. Fluke is deemed to be promoting contraception and “illicit sexual activity” (“sleeping around”?) which are “evil”. I am inferring that, if you perceive someone to be a sinner, “anything goes” in an attempt to warn them that their soul is in peril. Is that correct? I refer you to an article by Fr. Andrew Apostoli on CatholicCulture.org:

http://www.catholicculture.org/cultu...token=75597183

A few pertinent quotes from same:

To admonish the sinner begins by admonishing one's self. After all, we are all sinners. Humility is the virtue by which we recognize our sinfulness and our weakness, thus realizing that we ourselves depend upon God's mercy to forgive us our sins and upon His grace to strengthen us to resist sin in the future.”

“To admonish others effectively, there are two other points we must keep in mind. First, we must practice what we preach. In other words, we have to be working at striving for holiness and avoiding sin in our own lives if we expect others to do the same. It has been said, ‘I can't hear what you are saying because of what you are doing!’ The approach, ‘Do what I say and not what I do,’ will never work. The second point is to avoid the terrible attitude of self righteousness with its judgmental view of others. Self-righteousness puts a person into the mindset of the Pharisees who were quick to condemn sin in others but overlooked it in themselves.

Finally, if one feels compelled to “admonish the sinner”, then knowing the state of someone’s soul is assumed. And one more quote about judging someone’s words:

Matthew 12:36

36 “I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter; 37 for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

I hope this settles the question.
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  #146  
Old Dec 6, '12, 6:19 am
scipio337 scipio337 is offline
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Default Re: Gonzaga University will cover contraception but promises to clearly communicate Church teaching

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Originally Posted by CMatt25 View Post
Like Joe Biden, Nancy Pelosi, and many other Catholics who if you asked your church's answer, She would answer they are considered to be Catholics. Protestants and other faith groups also espouse a social doctrine of serving the poor. So social doctrine encompasses many faiths. But there are for instance non Catholic Christian Protestants and Jews who are pro choice. That's a difference I see in why you can not compare the 2 directly.

Opposition to abortion encompasses many faiths too, and those that are pro choice are a VAST minority. That would be like saying Fred Phelps represents the general Baptist view on homosexuals. The Dalia Lama is opposed to abortion in nearly all cases. The Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, and a vast majority of Protestant Churches oppose abortion. Hinduism and other Vedic religions are opposed to abortion. Orthodox Judaism opposes abortion except for the life of the mother. Abortion is generally forbidden in Sikhism because it is said to interfere with the creative work of God.

So what is your point? Many faith groups also espouse a doctrine of the sanctity of life. So protection of life encompasses many faiths. What is the difference between "social doctrine" and protecting life? Why isn't Joe Biden called out for wanting to instill a theocracy in America?

The difference, as seen in the enormous difference between Biden’s charitable donations (a whopping average of $369 a year??? 0.2% of his income!!.....) and Romney’s, is the difference between conservatism and liberalism: Conservatism holds that we all have to take care of ourselves and our fellow citizens; liberalism holds that the state - funded by some of us - has to.


What's more, this illustrates that to some people, Leftism is a religion which requires more fidelity than the Catholic Church.

Biden (and other people whose primary faith isn't Catholicism, Judaism, or Christianity), but Leftism) will use the government to forcefully take people’s money away and impose whatever policies he thinks Catholic social doctrine favors.....

But only when Catholicism agrees with Leftism is Joe Biden prepared to impose the former’s teachings. When his Catholicism does not agree with leftism, it is reduced to being a matter of personal faith, no more binding on non-Catholics than receiving the Eucharist.

Sad, but true.
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  #147  
Old Dec 6, '12, 6:41 am
scipio337 scipio337 is offline
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Default Re: Gonzaga University will cover contraception but promises to clearly communicate Church teaching

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Originally Posted by scipio337 View Post
Opposition to abortion encompasses many faiths too, and those that are pro choice are a VAST minority. That would be like saying Fred Phelps represents the general Baptist view on homosexuals. The Dalia Lama is opposed to abortion in nearly all cases. The Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, and a vast majority of Protestant Churches oppose abortion. Hinduism and other Vedic religions are opposed to abortion. Orthodox Judaism opposes abortion except for the life of the mother. Abortion is generally forbidden in Sikhism because it is said to interfere with the creative work of God.
So what is your point? Many faith groups also espouse a doctrine of the sanctity of life. So protection of life encompasses many faiths. What is the difference between "social doctrine" and protecting life? Why isn't Joe Biden called out for wanting to instill a theocracy in America?

The difference, as seen in the enormous difference between Biden’s charitable donations (a whopping average of $369 a year??? 0.2% of his income!!.....) and Romney’s, is the difference between conservatism and liberalism: Conservatism holds that we all have to take care of ourselves and our fellow citizens; liberalism holds that the state - funded by some of us - has to.


What's more, this illustrates that to some people, like Biden and Pelosi, while they are still considered Catholic, Leftism is a religion which requires more fidelity than the Catholic Church.

Biden (and other people whose primary faith isn't Catholicism, Judaism, or Christianity), but Leftism) will use the government to forcefully take people’s money away and impose whatever policies he thinks Catholic social doctrine favors.....

But only when Catholicism agrees with Leftism is Joe Biden prepared to impose the former’s teachings. When his Catholicism does not agree with leftism, it is reduced to being a matter of personal faith, no more binding on non-Catholics than receiving the Eucharist.

Sad, but true.
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  #148  
Old Dec 6, '12, 7:01 am
ProVobis ProVobis is offline
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Default Re: Gonzaga University will cover contraception but promises to clearly communicate Church teaching

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Originally Posted by scipio337 View Post
The difference, as seen in the enormous difference between Biden’s charitable donations (a whopping average of $369 a year??? 0.2% of his income!!.....) and Romney’s, is the difference between conservatism and liberalism: Conservatism holds that we all have to take care of ourselves and our fellow citizens; liberalism holds that the state - funded by some of us - has to.
Not that it matters to me, but I take it you would consider people like Warren Buffet and Bill Gates "conservative" by your standards?

But the important point is, what's the difference in what you call them? Moneyless people can (and usually do) take care of one another too.

BTW, you were responding to yourself in your last post. A little confusing there.
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  #149  
Old Dec 6, '12, 7:51 am
scipio337 scipio337 is offline
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Default Re: Gonzaga University will cover contraception but promises to clearly communicate Church teaching

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Originally Posted by ProVobis View Post
Not that it matters to me, but I take it you would consider people like Warren Buffet and Bill Gates "conservative" by your standards?

But the important point is, what's the difference in what you call them? Moneyless people can (and usually do) take care of one another too.

BTW, you were responding to yourself in your last post. A little confusing there.
Probably not, as charitable giving isn't the only determining factor, by which, you miss my point of the doublethink required for some pick and choose which parts of my faith they want to apply to my political life all while claiming they don't want to "impose" their beliefs on others.

Sorry for the previous double post, too late to delete.
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  #150  
Old Dec 6, '12, 9:27 am
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Suudy Suudy is offline
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Default Re: Gonzaga University will cover contraception but promises to clearly communicate Church teaching

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Employees provide a service to employers by filling jobs.
And employers provide a service by providing jobs. It is a 2 way street.

But my point is that employment is not a service, so it isn't about "Catholics only serving Catholics" regarding employment. That's what it sounded like you were saying.

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Originally Posted by CMatt25 View Post
But what I meant is what I said.
1) Should Catholics only employee Catholics? 2) Should Catholic colleges only educate Catholics? 3) Should Catholics only serve Catholics? I'm not sure what your confusion was.
And this has already been answered, especially by reference to the Motu Proprio.
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