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  #91  
Old Oct 7, '05, 10:01 am
Jim Baur Jim Baur is offline
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Default Re: Noah's Ark - True Story or Fiction?

From my reading of the City of God, Saint Augustine has a real flood of the entire world. I have read it recently.

However, I do not know if remember if correctly.

Also, I cannot find anything in the Catechism (it may be there, but I cannot find it).

Also, Saint Augustine is a Doctor of the Church, but I am still not sure if that is the official teaching of the universal Church.

I will believe what the Church teaches, I am not intelligent enough to undersand it myself.

HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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  #92  
Old Oct 12, '05, 8:42 am
Jim Baur Jim Baur is offline
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Default Re: Noah's Ark - True Story or Fiction?

Help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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  #93  
Old Oct 12, '05, 11:11 am
MichaelTDoyle MichaelTDoyle is offline
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Default Re: Noah's Ark - True Story or Fiction?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Baur
Help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Remember, Jesus is the Prince of Peace. Hear Him in stillness. This should not distress you so much.

A fundamentalist/literalist interpretation of Noah is not required of a Catholic.
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  #94  
Old Oct 13, '05, 6:11 am
Jim Baur Jim Baur is offline
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Default Re: Noah's Ark - True Story or Fiction?

MichaelTDoyle

I am not worried.

I would like to know the official teaching on Noah's Ark, if there is an explicit teaching.

I wanted this topic to be viewed. I can only image a clear teaching on such a basic or important historical event.

HELP!
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  #95  
Old Oct 13, '05, 6:39 am
Melchior Melchior is offline
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Default Re: Noah's Ark - True Story or Fiction?

How do you skeptics deal with the fact that both Jesus and Peter assumed the story was literal? Do you think the second person of the Trinity and the Apostle who was the first pope were just unenlightened simpletons? Or is the New Testament record also not to be trusted?

As for me I will stick with Jesus and Peter on this one.

Mel
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  #96  
Old Oct 13, '05, 7:58 am
Jim Baur Jim Baur is offline
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Default Re: Noah's Ark - True Story or Fiction?

I believe it!
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  #97  
Old Oct 13, '05, 8:14 am
awfulthings9 awfulthings9 is offline
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Default Re: Noah's Ark - True Story or Fiction?

I don't have a dog in this fight. Just curious if anyone knows if Jewish tradition gives us a name for Noah's wife?
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  #98  
Old Oct 13, '05, 8:39 am
Melchior Melchior is offline
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Default Re: Noah's Ark - True Story or Fiction?

Quote:
I don't have a dog in this fight. Just curious if anyone knows if Jewish tradition gives us a name for Noah's wife?
Wasn't it Joan?
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  #99  
Old Oct 13, '05, 8:47 am
Jim Baur Jim Baur is offline
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Default Re: Noah's Ark - True Story or Fiction?

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church



The senses of Scripture



115 According to an ancient tradition, one can distinguish between two senses of Scripture: the literal and the spiritual, the latter being subdivided into the allegorical, moral, and anagogical senses. The profound concordance of the four senses guarantees all its richness to the living reading of Scripture in the Church.



116 The literal sense is the meaning conveyed by the words of Scripture and discovered by exegesis, following the rules of sound interpretation: "All other senses of Sacred Scripture are based on the literal."

117 The spiritual sense. Thanks to the unity of God's plan, not only the text of Scripture but also the realities and events about which it speaks can be signs.



1. The allegorical sense. We can acquire a more profound understanding of events by recognizing their significance in Christ; thus the crossing of the Red Sea is a sign or type of Christ's victory and also of Christian Baptism.



2. The moral sense. The events reported in Scripture ought to lead us to act justly. As St. Paul says, they were written "for our instruction."



3. The anagogical sense (Greek: anagoge, "leading"). We can view realities and events in terms of their eternal significance, leading us toward our true homeland: thus the Church on earth is a sign of the heavenly Jerusalem.



118 A medieval couplet summarizes the significance of the four senses:

The Letter speaks of deeds; Allegory to faith;

The Moral how to act; Anagogy our destiny.





119 "It is the task of exegetes to work, according to these rules, toward a better understanding and explanation of the meaning of Sacred Scripture in order that their research may help the Church to form a firmer judgment. For, of course, all that has been said about the manner of interpreting Scripture is ultimately subject to the judgment of the Church which exercises the divinely conferred commission and ministry of watching over and interpreting the Word of God."



But I would not believe in the Gospel, had not the authority of the Catholic Church already moved me.

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  #100  
Old Oct 13, '05, 8:48 am
Jim Baur Jim Baur is offline
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Default Re: Noah's Ark - True Story or Fiction?

Adapted from Question 1, Article 10 of the Summa of Saint Thomas Aquinas



Two main senses in scripture

1. Spiritual- hidden meaning contained in the literal.

A. Anagogical (anagogical type), when things are in reference to future glory

Examples: Our Lord’s transfiguration on Mount Tabor was a foreshadowing of our glory in heaven

His resurrection, a sign of our own

Anagogical (Garrigou-Lagrange), as the New Law is itself a figure of future glory

Summa: “But so far as they signify what relates to eternal glory”



B. Moral or tropological, when things done in piety in the past were examples of what we should do in the New Law

For example: Abraham’s faith and obedience was the type of faith the future Christian should possess

Moral (Garrigou-Lagrange) according as the things done in Christ are types of what we ought to do

Summa: “so far as the things done in Christ, or so far as the things which signify Christ, are types of what we ought to do”



C. Allegorical (allegorical type), when it is in reference to something that really happened and simultaneously a foreshadowing of something yet to happen in the future (usually, the distant future)

For examples: Noah’s Ark was real but foretold the Church

The manna fell as a sign of the Blessed Sacrament yet to be instituted

Isaac carried wood on his shoulders and trudged up the mountain to be sacrificed as a symbol of Him who carried His cross up Calvary Hill.

Allegorical (Garrigou-Lagrange) in so far as the things of the Old Law signify in figure the things of the New Law

Summa: “so far as things in the Old Law signify the things of the New Law”



2. Literal- means what is says

A. Literal has two senses

2. Parabolical, that is, metaphorical

(Parabolic or parabolical- adj. 1. Of or like a parable. 2. Of or having the form of a parable)

Example: Thus when God’s arm is mentioned, the literal sense is to be taken metaphorically as expressing God’s power

The parabolical sense is contained in the literal, for by words things are signified properly and figuratively. Nor is the figure, but that which is figured, the literal sense.

When Scripture speaks of God’s arm, the literal is not that God has such a member, but only what is signified by this member, namely, operative power.



1. Proper

Summa: “These three—history, etiology, analogy—are grouped under the literal sense.”

A. Analogy- whenever the truth of one text of Scripture is shown not to contradict the truth of another.

B. Etiology- when its cause is assigned, as when Our Lord gave the reason why Moses allowed putting away of wives—namely, on account of the hardness of men’s hearts

C. History- whenever anything is simply related, the death of Jesus Christ





My question: St. Thomas gives several levels to the literal, which sense has the Church used for Noah’s ark?

I am not smart enough to figure it out, but I am not dumb enough not to ask for the Church's official teaching.
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  #101  
Old Oct 13, '05, 8:55 am
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buffalo buffalo is offline
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Default Re: Noah's Ark - True Story or Fiction?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Baur



116 The literal sense is the meaning conveyed by the words of Scripture and discovered by exegesis, following the rules of sound interpretation: "All other senses of Sacred Scripture are based on the literal."



"All other senses of Sacred Scripture are based on the literal."
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"A man of conscience, is one who never acquires tolerance, well- being, success, public standing, and approval on the part of prevailing opinion, at the expense of truth."
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  #102  
Old Oct 13, '05, 10:00 am
Jim Baur Jim Baur is offline
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Default Re: Noah's Ark - True Story or Fiction?

The Woodpecker Might have to go!

Everything I need to know about life, I learned fromNoah'sArkOne: Don't miss the boat.Two: Remember that we are all in the same boat.Three: Plan ahead. It wasn't raining when Noah built the Ark.Four: Stay fit When you're 600 years old, someone may ask you to do something really big.Five: Don't listen to critics; just get on with the job that needs to be done.Six: Build your future on high ground.Seven: For safety's sake, travel in pairs.Eight: Speed isn't always an advantage. The snails were on board with the cheetahs. Nine: When you're stressed, float a while.Ten: Remember, the Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.Eleven: No matter the storm, when you are with God, there's always a rainbow waiting
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  #103  
Old Oct 13, '05, 10:55 am
Jim Baur Jim Baur is offline
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Default Re: Noah's Ark - True Story or Fiction?

116 The literal sense is the meaning conveyed...

What is the meaning?
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  #104  
Old Jun 23, '08, 8:56 pm
Christ4Life Christ4Life is offline
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Default Re: Noah's Ark - True Story or Fiction?

Although I am not Catholic, I ask to be allowed to express my opinion...

I have mostly read all the posts, and I have realized that a major part of the argument against the actual occurence of the flood is due to the fact that it may not have been practical. But, so what? Who cares if it wasn't practical? Do you think God cares? Is God limited by such trivial matters? Cannot God simply will, and it is. Do explanations have to exist for every single matter? We are not supposed to understand everything about God, in that case he would not be the "incomprehsible".

In regards to the inspiration of the Bible and its accuracy, 2 Timothy 3: 16 clearly says, "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." If there was any space for the person writing Scripture to make any kind of mistake, Saint Paul would never say that it is profitable for reproof and correction, am I right?

Personally, I completely disagree with dismissing valuable lessons of the Bible as "myths" and merely symbolical. Adam and Eve did exist. The way that the New Testament echoes every verse of the Old proves to every Christian that the Old is not only symbolicaly but historically true.

As for a regional versus global flood, what does it matter? The point is, there was a flood. Is there something I'm missing?

I hope I haven't offended anyone, and I hope to engage in a kind discussion.
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  #105  
Old Jun 24, '08, 10:52 am
juliamajor juliamajor is offline
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Post Re: Noah's Ark - True Story or Fiction?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melchior View Post
How do you skeptics deal with the fact that both Jesus and Peter assumed the story was literal? Do you think the second person of the Trinity and the Apostle who was the first pope were just unenlightened simpletons? Or is the New Testament record also not to be trusted?

As for me I will stick with Jesus and Peter on this one.

Mel
Jesus and Peter were using the Flood as a metaphor for their teaching. Using a metaphor to prove something is weak indeed..If I say "it's raining cats and dogs"- you know what I mean- there is no need to explain that phrase to someone who is familiar with the idiom. Jesus and Peter were people of their times using language that people would understand and relate to. I don't think His point was to prove something or not- it was to teach.
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