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  #1  
Old Dec 28, '12, 7:56 pm
mdgspencer mdgspencer is offline
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Default "Church Links Relics to Christ's Birth, Plans Unveiling" (Piece of Manger)

The Vatican, which has authenticated these small pieces of the manger and of the clothing of Many and Joseph, sent them permanently to Chicago, U.S.A.. They are in Holy Family Church there.
see http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/l...,6103035.story
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  #2  
Old Dec 28, '12, 9:53 pm
cornbread_r2 cornbread_r2 is offline
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Default Re: "Church Links Relics to Christ's Birth, Plans Unveiling" (Piece of Manger, Fragments of Mary's and Joseph's Clothing Now in Chicago Church)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdgspencer View Post
The Vatican, which has authenticated these small pieces of the manger and of the clothing of Many and Joseph, sent them permanently to Chicago, U.S.A.. They are in Holy Family Church there.
see http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/l...,6103035.story
The article doesn't indicate exactly what the Vatican authenticated. Perhaps the only thing that the Vatican authenticated was that the relics came from Vatican storage. If, however, the Vatican actually claimed that these were genuine relics of Mary and Joseph's clothing and the manger, then I'd really like to know how they came to that conclusion.

From the linked article:

Although the relics came with a certificate of authenticity from the Vatican, Boland is not concerned about their scientific credibility. For example, carbon testing may or may not pin down the relics' origin during Christ's time, he said.

"We'll never get anywhere with that," Boland told reporters, pointing to the objects' intangible value. "These are objects of faith and devotion."


How could Boland not care if the people of his parish were giving devotion to fake relics?
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  #3  
Old Dec 28, '12, 10:00 pm
maltmom maltmom is offline
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Default Re: "Church Links Relics to Christ's Birth, Plans Unveiling" (Piece of Manger, Fragments of Mary's and Joseph's Clothing Now in Chicago Church)

I'm with Cornbread on this one. I'm also finding it difficult to believe that the Vatican would permanently send such treasures, if they are authentic, to Chicago. The piece of the manger was brought back to the Vatican in the 5th century. How can they tell that it was a piece of the actual manger that Jesus slept in?
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  #4  
Old Dec 28, '12, 10:33 pm
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Saints Alive Saints Alive is offline
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Default Re: "Church Links Relics to Christ's Birth, Plans Unveiling" (Piece of Manger, Fragments of Mary's and Joseph's Clothing Now in Chicago Church)

Ah, modern day Catholics. Always seeking proof.
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  #5  
Old Dec 28, '12, 11:01 pm
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Default Re: "Church Links Relics to Christ's Birth, Plans Unveiling" (Piece of Manger, Fragments of Mary's and Joseph's Clothing Now in Chicago Church)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdgspencer View Post
The Vatican, which has authenticated these small pieces of the manger and of the clothing of Many and Joseph, sent them permanently to Chicago, U.S.A.. They are in Holy Family Church there.
see http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/l...,6103035.story
from the article:

Quote:
Although the relics came with a certificate of authenticity from the Vatican, Boland is not concerned about their scientific credibility. For example, carbon testing may or may not pin down the relics' origin during Christ's time, he said.

"We'll never get anywhere with that," Boland told reporters, pointing to the objects' intangible value. "These are objects of faith and devotion."
I'm not sure how to have "faith" in something no one can prove is anything to have any faith in or where any devotion comes into it.

No one can prove these things are what they are purported to be and the Vatican can only say how they came to be in the possession of the Church and what someone said they were long long after the facts.
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  #6  
Old Dec 28, '12, 11:25 pm
mdgspencer mdgspencer is offline
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Default Re: "Church Links Relics to Christ's Birth, Plans Unveiling" (Piece of Manger, Fragments of Mary's and Joseph's Clothing Now in Chicago Church)

A certificate of authenticity means that the item is an actual relic, not simply that the Vatican sent the item from storage, for example. In fact, a relic has to be authenticated by the Church before it can be venerated, according to Catholic canon law, so as to keep a fake from being publicly venerated. If this will be helpful, some fuller information on the nature of relics and on the certificate of authenticity given by the Church for relics is at http://saintsandrelics.blogspot.com/...rminology.html


Quote:
Originally Posted by cornbread_r2 View Post
The article doesn't indicate exactly what the Vatican authenticated. Perhaps the only thing that the Vatican authenticated was that the relics came from Vatican storage. If, however, the Vatican actually claimed that these were genuine relics of Mary and Joseph's clothing and the manger, then I'd really like to know how they came to that conclusion.

From the linked article:

Although the relics came with a certificate of authenticity from the Vatican, Boland is not concerned about their scientific credibility. For example, carbon testing may or may not pin down the relics' origin during Christ's time, he said.

"We'll never get anywhere with that," Boland told reporters, pointing to the objects' intangible value. "These are objects of faith and devotion."


How could Boland not care if the people of his parish were giving devotion to fake relics?
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  #7  
Old Dec 29, '12, 12:43 am
cornbread_r2 cornbread_r2 is offline
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Default Re: "Church Links Relics to Christ's Birth, Plans Unveiling" (Piece of Manger, Fragments of Mary's and Joseph's Clothing Now in Chicago Church)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdgspencer View Post
A certificate of authenticity means that the item is an actual relic, not simply that the Vatican sent the item from storage, for example. In fact, a relic has to be authenticated by the Church before it can be venerated, according to Catholic canon law, so as to keep a fake from being publicly venerated. If this will be helpful, some fuller information on the nature of relics and on the certificate of authenticity given by the Church for relics is at http://saintsandrelics.blogspot.com/...rminology.html
According to the link you provided, authentication is really nothing more than certifying a chain of custody, e.g. "This bone came from the body of Saint X". If you're asserting that the church has gone further in the case of the items in question and also claims that those items are definitely genuine pieces of Mary and Joseph's clothing and a piece of the manger, then I'm going to need more than that link to confirm that process.

The Shroud of Turin is venerated every day, but as far as I know, the church has never asserted conclusively that it is the burial cloth of Jesus. I suspect the same is true of these items.
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  #8  
Old Dec 29, '12, 4:57 am
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Tarpeian Rock Tarpeian Rock is offline
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Default Re: "Church Links Relics to Christ's Birth, Plans Unveiling" (Piece of Manger, Fragments of Mary's and Joseph's Clothing Now in Chicago Church)

Thinking of just the manger, for the relic to be true we would have to believe that the Holy Family chipped off a piece of someone else's property to take as a souvenir? Clearly they didn't steal it. The only other possibility is that the bought it from the owner of the stable and then lugged the whole feed-trough back to Nazareth and kept it the rest of their lives. Just not believable. Right up there with the supposed relic that is "Jesus' foreskin," as if a devout Jewish family would have kept such a thing..
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  #9  
Old Dec 29, '12, 12:46 pm
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Julia Mae Julia Mae is offline
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Default Re: "Church Links Relics to Christ's Birth, Plans Unveiling" (Piece of Manger, Fragments of Mary's and Joseph's Clothing Now in Chicago Church)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdgspencer View Post
A certificate of authenticity means that the item is an actual relic, not simply that the Vatican sent the item from storage, ...
It is impossible to "authenticate" that something is a part of the manger Jesus was placed in. And unless we can see the text of whatever authentication was with these relics, I do not believe the Church had ever said that. I also point out that the statement in the article shows there has not been any dating done to show they were even from the same century.

What we have is a lot of people throwing around a lot of language, bit no one providing any evidence.
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  #10  
Old Dec 29, '12, 1:12 pm
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Saints Alive Saints Alive is offline
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Default Re: "Church Links Relics to Christ's Birth, Plans Unveiling" (Piece of Manger, Fragments of Mary's and Joseph's Clothing Now in Chicago Church)

What harm is done if what we believe to be authentic isn't ? What builds faith is good.
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  #11  
Old Dec 29, '12, 7:49 pm
Lochias Lochias is offline
 
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Default Re: "Church Links Relics to Christ's Birth, Plans Unveiling" (Piece of Manger, Fragments of Mary's and Joseph's Clothing Now in Chicago Church)

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Originally Posted by Saints Alive View Post
What harm is done if what we believe to be authentic isn't ? What builds faith is good.
Agreed. What, here, is going against the Catholic faith in any way, shape or form?
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  #12  
Old Dec 29, '12, 11:09 pm
cornbread_r2 cornbread_r2 is offline
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Default Re: "Church Links Relics to Christ's Birth, Plans Unveiling" (Piece of Manger, Fragments of Mary's and Joseph's Clothing Now in Chicago Church)

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Originally Posted by Saints Alive View Post
What harm is done if what we believe to be authentic isn't ? What builds faith is good.
I reckon it depends upon whether the truth matters or not.
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  #13  
Old Dec 30, '12, 12:03 am
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Julia Mae Julia Mae is offline
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Default Re: "Church Links Relics to Christ's Birth, Plans Unveiling" (Piece of Manger, Fragments of Mary's and Joseph's Clothing Now in Chicago Church)

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Originally Posted by Saints Alive View Post
What harm is done if what we believe to be authentic isn't ? What builds faith is good.
And what destroys faith is not. Catholics have the unfortunate habit of believing in the Church more than they do God. The Church is God to many, and this is a notion the Church tends to foster. However true that may be at an esoteric spiritual level, the Pope, the Vatican, the Scripture, The Rosary, all of these things that people think of when they think of the Church: not God.

Why would anyone believe in Eternal Life or miracles or angels or all the very real and true things, the Resurrection, the Hope of Heaven, when this sort of semi-superstitious practice is continued and fostered?

What happens to someone when they finally understand that no one is saying these are the actual fragments of anything connected to the Holy Family because it's impossible to say that? What happens to someone thinking of converting when they find out these things have no provenance? This line from the story in the paper...

Quote:
will formally unveil three relics that the church says are more than 2,000 years old
...is itself untrue. The Church does not say they are more than 2000 years old.

Hasn't it ever struck people that there is a reason there are no artifacts of Jesus? That His clothes were taken and sold, He owned no property, He left no writings? Even His physical body was taken away.

We aren't supposed to be venerating objects. We are supposed to be feeding each other. The things that actually are true, are much more astounding than some 1/5" long bit of fibers. But once part of what the faithful are supposed to accept is shown to be false, it casts doubt onto everything else.
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  #14  
Old Dec 30, '12, 7:33 am
Paddy Walker Paddy Walker is offline
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Default Re: "Church Links Relics to Christ's Birth, Plans Unveiling" (Piece of Manger)

the story of the manger is in the scriptures, the manger was real. it does not matter if the relic is the manger or not, it is a visible (almost) reminder, and, a realization of the reality of the events does hit the mind when you imagine you are looking at a piece of the manger.

the story in the scriptures is not the actual event itself either, yet the scriptures are venerated etc., the scripture story is just a second or third hand description and reminder of that event. but with another reminder, a visible, tangible thing, like a piece of the manger you can see first hand so to speak and imagine in the minds eye the events in the story and that brings you closer to them somehow.
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  #15  
Old Dec 30, '12, 7:50 am
Tigg Tigg is offline
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Default Re: "Church Links Relics to Christ's Birth, Plans Unveiling" (Piece of Manger, Fragments of Mary's and Joseph's Clothing Now in Chicago Church)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saints Alive View Post
Ah, modern day Catholics. Always seeking proof.
And no matter how convincing the scientific testing, there will always be those who are not satisfied with the results. Just look at the Shroud of Turin, for example.

What is wrong in honoring such a thing and allowing it to elevate the mind to heavenly inclinations?
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