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  #631  
Old Jan 14, '13, 1:47 am
fordhamstudent fordhamstudent is offline
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Default Re: Did the Orthodox Churches ever submit to the Pope's Authority?

Ecclesial communities that have a democratic model of ecclesiology vote on doctrine such as The Episcopal Church--which is dangerous for obvious reasons. The Monarchial vision of ecclesiology is not only the most apostolic, but from the perspective of unity the only one which practically works such as the one Catholics subscribe too. The ecclesiology of St. Ignatius, of the Diocesan Church or Local Church, is before the development of the Ecumenical Councils and thus is abrogated although represented still by the Church in the diocese today in a modified form after the Second Vatican Council.

The Eastern Churches before the fall of Constantinople were State Churches, basically a department of State, under the Eastern Roman Emperor. The Eastern Orthodox ecclesiological model since the fall of Constantinople has been in chaos and even under the Ottomans since they were so institutionalized by being a State Church allowed the Turks to appoint Patriarchs and bishops for them. The Old Calendarist Churches in rejection of what they termed ecumenist Orthodox Jurisdictions resurrected the ecclesiology of St. Ignatius or of the Local Church in order to justify schism from the larger modernist Orthodox bodies.

The problem with the ecclesiology of the Local Church is that it leads to sectarianism in the modern context and not true unity with those who claim to be the true successors to the Orthodox tradition--that is why there are not only many competing Orthodox Jurisdictions, but ones who are even Old Calendarist who anathematize other Old Calendarist Jurisdictions.

The Papal model of ecclesiology, drawing from the monarchial model, centralizes all particular Churches, Latin, Eastern, and Oriental Catholic in order to theologically express the unity of the Mystical Body and on a practical level to actually and concretely or visibly demonstrate the unity which Christ prayed for thereby making the Catholic model of ecclesiology the most ideal and perfect for the Church Catholic, both East and West.
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  #632  
Old Jan 14, '13, 2:53 am
hazcompat hazcompat is offline
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Default Re: Did the Orthodox Churches ever submit to the Pope's Authority?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fordhamstudent View Post
Ecclesial communities that have a democratic model of ecclesiology vote on doctrine such as The Episcopal Church--which is dangerous for obvious reasons. The Monarchial vision of ecclesiology is not only the most apostolic, but from the perspective of unity the only one which practically works such as the one Catholics subscribe too. The ecclesiology of St. Ignatius, of the Diocesan Church or Local Church, is before the development of the Ecumenical Councils and thus is abrogated although represented still by the Church in the diocese today in a modified form after the Second Vatican Council.

The Eastern Churches before the fall of Constantinople were State Churches, basically a department of State, under the Eastern Roman Emperor. The Eastern Orthodox ecclesiological model since the fall of Constantinople has been in chaos and even under the Ottomans since they were so institutionalized by being a State Church allowed the Turks to appoint Patriarchs and bishops for them. The Old Calendarist Churches in rejection of what they termed ecumenist Orthodox Jurisdictions resurrected the ecclesiology of St. Ignatius or of the Local Church in order to justify schism from the larger modernist Orthodox bodies.

The problem with the ecclesiology of the Local Church is that it leads to sectarianism in the modern context and not true unity with those who claim to be the true successors to the Orthodox tradition--that is why there are not only many competing Orthodox Jurisdictions, but ones who are even Old Calendarist who anathematize other Old Calendarist Jurisdictions.

The Papal model of ecclesiology, drawing from the monarchial model, centralizes all particular Churches, Latin, Eastern, and Oriental Catholic in order to theologically express the unity of the Mystical Body and on a practical level to actually and concretely or visibly demonstrate the unity which Christ prayed for thereby making the Catholic model of ecclesiology the most ideal and perfect for the Church Catholic, both East and West.
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  #633  
Old Jan 14, '13, 3:06 am
fordhamstudent fordhamstudent is offline
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Default Re: Did the Orthodox Churches ever submit to the Pope's Authority?

Christ is the Sacrament of God and the Church is the Sacrament of Christ--this is the teaching of our Holy Mother Church.
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  #634  
Old Jan 14, '13, 7:04 am
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Peter J Peter J is offline
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Default Re: Did the Orthodox Churches ever submit to the Pope's Authority?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maron_Ignatius View Post
I want to thank you dcointin for sharing that link, it is a very interesting read but I must disagree with most of it. Sorry about not getting back to respond on here, it took me a few days to read it.

I do want to ask on this, 1) if the Orthodox view the "Unia" as a schism, then what does the Orthodox Church make of/call the "Western-rite Orthodoxy"? Do the Orthodox Church view it as a type of Uniatism?

2)How do you view it as an Orthodox Christian? and especially as an Antiochian Orthodox?(since the Antiochian Orthodox Church is the main Orthodox Church with Western-rite Orthodoxy)
Hi Maron_Ignatius. I realize you're asking about Orthodox views, but I'd like to throw my 2 cents in anyhow. The way I see it, Western-Rite Orthodoxy can be uniatism but isn't -- or at least, hardly ever is. It has nearly always been a matter of Catholics and/or protestants individually converting to Orthodoxy.

On a side note, some Orthodox frame the question as "Is Western-rite Orthodoxy reverse Uniatism?" but that's never really made sense to me. It's like saying that if I punched you in the nose it would be a "reverse punch", because a "punch" would be if you punched me in the nose.
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  #635  
Old Jan 14, '13, 9:37 am
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Cavaradossi Cavaradossi is offline
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Default Re: Did the Orthodox Churches ever submit to the Pope's Authority?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fordhamstudent View Post
Ecclesial communities that have a democratic model of ecclesiology vote on doctrine such as The Episcopal Church--which is dangerous for obvious reasons. The Monarchial vision of ecclesiology is not only the most apostolic, but from the perspective of unity the only one which practically works such as the one Catholics subscribe too. The ecclesiology of St. Ignatius, of the Diocesan Church or Local Church, is before the development of the Ecumenical Councils and thus is abrogated although represented still by the Church in the diocese today in a modified form after the Second Vatican Council.
How can the apostolic faith be abrogated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fordhamstudent View Post
The Eastern Churches before the fall of Constantinople were State Churches, basically a department of State, under the Eastern Roman Emperor.
Would the same be true then of the so-called Byzantine Papacy (that is, the period when the elections of the bishop of Rome were approved either by the emperor or by the Exarch of Ravenna)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fordhamstudent View Post
The Eastern Orthodox ecclesiological model since the fall of Constantinople has been in chaos and even under the Ottomans since they were so institutionalized by being a State Church allowed the Turks to appoint Patriarchs and bishops for them.
This thinking relies on some assumption that Church and State were separate entities back in the day, when in reality, they were not. The confirmation of the election of episcopal candidates by civil authorities (and the abuse of this principle by civil authorities to appoint bishops) is something which was practiced both in the East and the West.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fordhamstudent View Post
The Old Calendarist Churches in rejection of what they termed ecumenist Orthodox Jurisdictions resurrected the ecclesiology of St. Ignatius or of the Local Church in order to justify schism from the larger modernist Orthodox bodies.
What does this mean, "modernist Orthodox bodies?" We are not modernists, any more so than the Roman Catholic Church is "modernist."

Quote:
Originally Posted by fordhamstudent View Post
The problem with the ecclesiology of the Local Church is that it leads to sectarianism in the modern context and not true unity with those who claim to be the true successors to the Orthodox tradition--that is why there are not only many competing Orthodox Jurisdictions, but ones who are even Old Calendarist who anathematize other Old Calendarist Jurisdictions.

The Papal model of ecclesiology, drawing from the monarchial model, centralizes all particular Churches, Latin, Eastern, and Oriental Catholic in order to theologically express the unity of the Mystical Body and on a practical level to actually and concretely or visibly demonstrate the unity which Christ prayed for thereby making the Catholic model of ecclesiology the most ideal and perfect for the Church Catholic, both East and West.
This is an unjustifiable criticism. One could likewise point to the Great Western Schism as well as numerous modern sects which have broken away from Roman Catholicism while remaining to the Roman Catholic model of ecclesiology. The existence of such groups is not capable of establishing that the ecclesiology in question is what caused those groups.
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  #636  
Old Jan 14, '13, 11:55 am
Maron_Ignatius Maron_Ignatius is offline
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Default Re: Did the Orthodox Churches ever submit to the Pope's Authority?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter J View Post
Hi Maron_Ignatius. I realize you're asking about Orthodox views, but I'd like to throw my 2 cents in anyhow. The way I see it, Western-Rite Orthodoxy can be uniatism but isn't -- or at least, hardly ever is. It has nearly always been a matter of Catholics and/or protestants individually converting to Orthodoxy.

On a side note, some Orthodox frame the question as "Is Western-rite Orthodoxy reverse Uniatism?" but that's never really made sense to me. It's like saying that if I punched you in the nose it would be a "reverse punch", because a "punch" would be if you punched me in the nose.
Thanks Peter J, I just want to say I welcome others views and opinions. To be honest I've haven't given much thought to Western-rite Orthodoxy, I actually just learned about Western-rite Orthodoxy. I guess would say my view is that it is a conversion to the Orthodox Church by Catholic and/or protestant individuals while maintaining the Latin identity(?)

I gotcha
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  #637  
Old Jan 14, '13, 12:14 pm
Maron_Ignatius Maron_Ignatius is offline
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Default Re: Did the Orthodox Churches ever submit to the Pope's Authority?

I just want to apologize to anyone that I may have offended.

I received a warning on one of my post, the reason was on the usage of some of my wording. I did not mean in anyway for this post to be offensive and I never meant for the use of any of these words to be taken in a offensive manner. I am still pretty new to CAF and getting use to the guidelines, I will do my best to prevent this from happening again in the future. Thank you all for being understanding and for anyone that I might of offended, I am truly sorry!
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Last edited by Maron_Ignatius; Jan 14, '13 at 12:27 pm.
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  #638  
Old Jan 14, '13, 2:23 pm
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Peter J Peter J is offline
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Default Re: Did the Orthodox Churches ever submit to the Pope's Authority?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maron_Ignatius View Post
I just want to apologize to anyone that I may have offended.

I received a warning on one of my post, the reason was on the usage of some of my wording. I did not mean in anyway for this post to be offensive and I never meant for the use of any of these words to be taken in a offensive manner. I am still pretty new to CAF and getting use to the guidelines, I will do my best to prevent this from happening again in the future. Thank you all for being understanding and for anyone that I might of offended, I am truly sorry!
Yeah, I wondered about that. While the word "uniatism" is considered acceptable (possibly you've read the joint statement "Uniatism: Method of Union of the Past, and the Present Search for Full Communion"), there are certain related terms which are no longer considered acceptable (since Vatican II, more or less).
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  #639  
Old Jan 15, '13, 9:37 am
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Catherine Grant Catherine Grant is offline
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Default Re: Did the Orthodox Churches ever submit to the Pope's Authority?

On the use of the words uniate, schismatic, and heretic
Historically, the term Uniate was employed relatively freely by the Catholic Churches, including those of the East and Orient, as well as by the Orthodox Churches.

During a period in the 20th century, it took on a pejorative nature when it was perceived as being used sneeringly by some Orthodox (principally those of the Eastern, rather than the Oriental, Churches). As a result, the Eastern and Oriental Catholics ceased using the term in reference to themselves, particularly in America, where the majority of CAF's posters reside.

In recent history, there has been some increase in the use of the term by Rome itself and by some Eastern and Oriental Catholics. The subject has been much discussed here in the past, expressing that a large segment of CAF's Eastern and Oriental Catholics continue to view the term to be an offensive pejorative. As such, the abiding guideline wasa ban of the term uniate, along with heretic and schismatic (and their derivative forms), when they are used in a manner that smacks of them being confrontational, contemptuous, disparaging, inciteful, insulting, taunting, or worse.

Knowing the offense taken by many of the Eastern and Oriental Catholics who post here, and knowing the historical context for their concern, using the term uniate as a generic descriptor for Catholics of the Eastern and Oriental Churches who are in union with Rome is by nature confrontational and uncharitable and as such is not allowed. Likewise, the use of the terms schismatic or heretic may not be used as generic descriptors for any of the Eastern or Oriental Churches, whether Catholic or Orthodox.

An example of acceptable usage of the terms is a direct quote of a third-party document which is otherwise pertinent to an ongoing discussion. Care should be taken by all posters that their choice of words foster an environment in which it is possible to discuss, dialogue, dissent, and even debate without causing offense or acrimony between posters.

Note that ascribing these terms to the faithful or to individual members of any of the Apostolic Churches is absolutely unacceptable and will not be tolerated.

Please review our Charity guidelines first, and if you have any further questions or concerns, please feel free to contact a forum moderator.
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  #640  
Old Jan 15, '13, 3:40 pm
steve b steve b is offline
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Default Re: Did the Orthodox Churches ever submit to the Pope's Authority?

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Originally Posted by Schism hater View Post
A classic example of eisegesis (reading something into scripture that isn't there). Christ never tells the apostles Peter is to lead them or rule them. In Luke he indicates Peter will have a leadership role in the early Church, which no one denies. That is far removed from the universal primacy of the Bishop of Rome. Not to mention Acts 15 destroys any notion of Peter as "ruler" over the early Church, much less his successors.

I quoted the text I was referencing, I gave the Greek words in the text I was refering to, I gave their definition, so that everyone can verify everything I was referencing, and therefore can see that I neither added or subtracted anything to scripture, I didn't read anything into scripture, and one can see that from the following post I stayed in the context
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve b View Post
see this post


Therefore
  • the charge of eisagesis doesn't fit.
  • The ECF's support Peter's universal role as leader I quoted 2 Eastern Fathers already Apharat and Ephrem which addresses the topic of the thread
  • Acts 15 doesn't deny Peter's universal role. It shows that James was the bishop of Jerusalem, and James implemented what Peter said. In peoples fiction #1 about the pope Acts 15 is discussed. Fiction 1 - Peter was not the first Pope then in Fiction 2 about the pope people say- The Pope cannot be the Successor of Peter
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  #641  
Old Jan 16, '13, 7:42 am
sharpag sharpag is offline
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Default Re: Did the Orthodox Churches ever submit to the Pope's Authority?

Maybe this question was already answered but can someone explain to me why Catholicism views the primacy of Rome to rest only on Peter. I can see how Rome was given primacy because of Peter and Paul but if primacy rests on Peter alone then why is it limited in scope so as not to include Antioch or Jerusalem? Maybe I am wrong and Catholics view primacy to rest on Peter and Paul but, in my opinion, this would seem to go against the concept of Peter alone, and not the other apostles, receiving the keys.
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  #642  
Old Jan 16, '13, 9:08 am
hazcompat hazcompat is offline
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Default Re: Did the Orthodox Churches ever submit to the Pope's Authority?

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Originally Posted by sharpag View Post
Maybe this question was already answered but can someone explain to me why Catholicism views the primacy of Rome to rest only on Peter. I can see how Rome was given primacy because of Peter and Paul but if primacy rests on Peter alone then why is it limited in scope so as not to include Antioch or Jerusalem? Maybe I am wrong and Catholics view primacy to rest on Peter and Paul but, in my opinion, this would seem to go against the concept of Peter alone, and not the other apostles, receiving the keys.
The Works of St. Optatus

St Optatus
66 THE CATHEDRA
The Cathedra?- we must see who was the first to sit on the Cathedra, and where he sat. If you do not know this, learn. If you do know, blush. Ignorance cannot be attributed to you it follows that you know. For one who knows, to err is sin. Those who do not know may sometimes be pardoned. You cannot then deny that you do know that upon Peter first in the City of Rome was bestowed the Episcopal Cathedra on which sat Peter, the Head of all the Apostles (for which reason he was called Cephas ),

1 St. Cyprian was the first Father to use the term Cathedra (Chair). He applied it (as a word in common use at the time) to the See of Rome which he termed the Cathedra Petri. Parmenian, evidently, had claimed the Cathedra, stating that it belonged to him through the Angelus or Bishop (in other words We have valid Orders, and therefore we are in the Church ). St. Optatus replies to this in the text by making direct appeal to Rome. No man can possess a Cathedra, argues Optatus, who is not in communion with the one Cathedra, which, in all but successive sentences, he calls una Cathedra, singularis Cathedra and Cathedra unica.
THE CATHEDRA PETRI 67
that, in this one Cathedra, unity should be preserved by all,

1 lest the other Apostles might claim each for himself separate Cathedras, so that he who should set up a second Cathedra against the unique Cathedra 2 would already be a schismatic and a sinner.

bear in mind that St. Cyprian was at this time the great authority

This perfectly plain doctrine of St. Optatus was never once challenged amongst Christians (the Albigenses were Manichees rather than Christians) until the days of Hus and Wycliffe, some nine hundred years later. We know that the work of St. Optatus was the great authority and handbook ofSt. Augustine in his arguments against the Donatists. He constantly echoes the teaching of St. Optatus, concerning the Chair of Peter, and, in his controversy with the Donatists, applied the famous promise Upon this Rock I will build my Church to this Holy See. Sedes Petri . . . ipsa est Petra (Ps. con. Donat. St. xiv).

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  #643  
Old Jan 16, '13, 9:23 am
dzheremi dzheremi is offline
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Default Re: Did the Orthodox Churches ever submit to the Pope's Authority?

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Maybe this question was already answered but can someone explain to me why Catholicism views the primacy of Rome to rest only on Peter. I can see how Rome was given primacy because of Peter and Paul
According to Canon 28 of the Council of Chalcedon, which was accepted by the rest of the church but resisted by Rome in particular, the primacy given to Rome does not rest on Peter at all:

"For the Fathers rightly granted privileges to the throne of old Rome, because it was the royal city. And the One Hundred and Fifty most religious Bishops, actuated by the same consideration, gave equal privileges to the most holy throne of New Rome, justly judging that the city which is honoured with the Sovereignty and the Senate, and enjoys equal privileges with the old imperial Rome, should in ecclesiastical matters also be magnified as she is, and rank next after her."
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  #644  
Old Jan 16, '13, 11:18 am
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GaryTaylor GaryTaylor is offline
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Default Re: Did the Orthodox Churches ever submit to the Pope's Authority?

"As for those things which the universal Council of Chalcedon recently ordained in favor of the church of Constantinople, let Your Holiness be sure that there was no fault in me, who from my youth have always loved peace and quiet, keeping myself in humility. It was the most reverend clergy of the church of Constantinople who were eager about it, and they were equally supported by the most reverend priests of those parts, who agreed about it. Even so, the whole force of confirmation of the acts was reserved for the authority of Your Blessedness. Therefore, let Your Holiness know for certain that I did nothing to further the matter, knowing always that I held myself bound to avoid the lusts of pride and covetousness". Patriarch Anatolius of Constantinople to Pope Leo, Ep 132 (on the Canon 28 of Chalcedon).

"the whole force of confirmation of the acts was reserved for the authority of Your Blessedness."
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  #645  
Old Jan 16, '13, 11:55 am
sharpag sharpag is offline
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Default Re: Did the Orthodox Churches ever submit to the Pope's Authority?

Quote:
This perfectly plain doctrine of St. Optatus was never once challenged amongst Christians (the Albigenses were Manichees rather than Christians) until the days of Hus and Wycliffe, some nine hundred years later. We know that the work of St. Optatus was the great authority and handbook ofSt. Augustine in his arguments against the Donatists. He constantly echoes the teaching of St. Optatus, concerning the Chair of Peter, and, in his controversy with the Donatists, applied the famous promise Upon this Rock I will build my Church to this Holy See. Sedes Petri . . . ipsa est Petra (Ps. con. Donat. St. xiv).
That address Petrine primacy but not Roman primacy (there is a difference).

Quote:
"the whole force of confirmation of the acts was reserved for the authority of Your Blessedness."
Even if I were to grant that canon 28 was not valid because it was not approved by the Roman pontiff, my question remains unanswered as to why Rome to the exclusion of the other sees of Peter. A patriarch deferring to Rome is also not a definitive example (especially when one considers the political and religious issues Anatolius was dealing with). I don't mean to sound antagonistic but it seems that geopolitical factors lead to Rome alone claiming the primacy of Peter.
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